Ideas for legal / constitutional ways for ordinary people to fight back ?

mikedublin

I wonder does anyone have any ideas on (legal and constitutional) ways to fight back against the current government and bring about an election ?
I love my country and if we were invaded tomorrow I would want to fight to defend it, but right now it seems as if our own government has declared war on its citizens. They are threatening even higher tax rises in December's budget including property tax, and I for one simply cannot afford it. They are making life impossible for ordinary people, and they seem totally un-interested in the real world effect of all this.
Anybody got any suggestions on how we the people can get the message accross to the goverment that their "cure" is killing the paitient ?

CiaranC

Its too late for all that now. They were democratically elected.

We reap what we sow.

mikemac

Wait until the term is over realy. I can't think of anything else.

jhegarty

Volunteer to campaign for the other side in the upcoming local elections.

hobochris

mikemac wrote: »

Wait until the term is over realy. I can't think of anything else.

the problem is that people will forget and the local Td will say, sure I'll get speed ramps put on the roads, help with your planning permission etc.. and people will vote for the same shower again.

Its the attitude of the country that needs to change not just the government. At present there is too much of a "who else is there" and "sure what can we do" attitude where people don't want to be bothered with change unless it directly effects them and prefer the option with the least hassle for them.

Id love to see a new party created and voted in who will make things better but Ive been jaded by the attitude of this country, sick of all the talk, begrudging and moaning, to the point where I've almost given up caring...but 'Sure what can we do'?

oscarBravo

mikedublin wrote: »

I wonder does anyone have any ideas on (legal and constitutional) ways to fight back against the current government and bring about an election ?

Persuade your sitting government party or independent TD to vote against the government. It's not likely to happen, but if it does, that's how.

I love my country and if we were invaded tomorrow I would want to fight to defend it, but right now it seems as if our own government has declared war on its citizens. They are threatening even higher tax rises in December's budget including property tax, and I for one simply cannot afford it. They are making life impossible for ordinary people, and they seem totally un-interested in the real world effect of all this.

If you're going to convince a government TD to cross the aisle, you'll have to make a compelling case, and "I can't afford to pay higher taxes" probably won't cut it. There's a hole the size of a small planet in our finances, and it has to be plugged - and that will require further reductions in expenditure, and further increases in taxation. It's not going to be fun, but unless you've got a better idea, it's inevitable.

mikedublin

oscarBravo wrote: »

Persuade your sitting government party or independent TD to vote against the government. It's not likely to happen, but if it does, that's how. If you're going to convince a government TD to cross the aisle, you'll have to make a compelling case, and "I can't afford to pay higher taxes" probably won't cut it. There's a hole the size of a small planet in our finances, and it has to be plugged - and that will require further reductions in expenditure, and further increases in taxation. It's not going to be fun, but unless you've got a better idea, it's inevitable.

The problem is raising taxes in the middle of a recession won't solve the problem - it will only make it worse. If people have less money to spend in shops, restraunts, cinemas whatever, then those places will make less money, and in turn will lay off a couple of staff, they then sign on, which costs the goverment more in welfare payments, plus the government is now not receiving any income tax at all from those people. Its a ever decreasing circle, and will end up with massive unemployment, saturation level taxes, and eventualy bankruptcy.
The better way is to freeze taxes, wages and prices. get people working, earning and spending. Those people's income tax, VAT, etc is where you can raise the taxes from. If you need new taxes the time to introduce them is during a period of strong growth, when people can afford them without it impacting on jobs.

bmaxi

oscarBravo wrote: »

Persuade your sitting government party or independent TD to vote against the government. It's not likely to happen, but if it does, that's how. If you're going to convince a government TD to cross the aisle, you'll have to make a compelling case, and "I can't afford to pay higher taxes" probably won't cut it. There's a hole the size of a small planet in our finances, and it has to be plugged - and that will require further reductions in expenditure, and further increases in taxation. It's not going to be fun, but unless you've got a better idea, it's inevitable.

To get a Government T.D. to cross the floor would also require him/her to have some concept of "the greater good", sadly this concept is unknown to most of our ruling elite.

oscarBravo

mikedublin wrote: »

The better way is to freeze taxes, wages and prices. get people working, earning and spending. Those people's income tax, VAT, etc is where you can raise the taxes from. If you need new taxes the time to introduce them is during a period of strong growth, when people can afford them without it impacting on jobs.

While I don't disagree with the broad principle you're expressing, the problem that many people don't quite seem to grasp is that the country is haemorrhaging money at a terrifying rate.

Imagine a household that has missed the last two mortgage payments, is at the limit of the overdraft and the credit cards, and has monthly bills well in excess of its monthly income. Sure, it would be nice to think that there's a relatively painless way to massage a few aspects of the finances and hope that things work themselves out eventually - but in reality, drastic action is called for, and it's not going to be fun.

bmaxi wrote: »

To get a Government T.D. to cross the floor would also require him/her to have some concept of "the greater good", sadly this concept is unknown to most of our ruling elite.

It would also require a near-tectonic (and, IMO, long overdue) shift in the country's political system.

spank_inferno

agree with previous poster.
Disent amongst government TD 's is almost unheard of.
Joe Beehan gave it a lash in Wicklow but by the next general election expect him to be making his apologies and return to the fold.

The government whip must be a Cat o'nine tails!

Gambler

oscarBravo wrote: »

It would also require a near-tectonic (and, IMO, long overdue) shift in the country's political system.

I vaguely remember something from school about there being a provision that if a majority of the people who turn out spoil their votes in an election then the government as it is currently structured has to be dissolved and a new system put in place..

If that is true then that's the only way I can see a real shift in the political system coming about and that's just never going to happen..

silverharp

mikedublin wrote: »

I wonder does anyone have any ideas on (legal and constitutional) ways to fight back against the current government and bring about an election ?

take responsibilty for you own finances, start saving even though they are trying to stop you

mikedublin

donegalfella wrote: »

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Well I really believe they would care more about people's ability to pay these tax increases, and they would be more "in-touch" with real people. Also I think Richard Bruton would make a much better Minister of Finance and our country might actually survive this with him.

RealityCheck

mikedublin wrote: »

Well I really believe they would care more about people's ability to pay these tax increases, and they would be more "in-touch" with real people. Also I think Richard Bruton would make a much better Minister of Finance and our country might actually survive this with him.

The problem is its gone past that stage. It doesnt matter who is in office now, they will have to slash and burn no matter what. I cannot see how any other government could do much better.
However, One positive about a change in Government is that we can divorce the past. Fine Gael - Labour would help us gain credibility. No doubt.

Hillel

oscarBravo wrote: »

There's a hole the size of a small planet in our finances, and it has to be plugged - and that will require further reductions in expenditure, ....

What reductions in expenditure?? There's been minimal reductions - that's been the problem the whole way along. A year into this mess and minimal measures, only, to cut public sector spending.:mad:

oscarBravo wrote: »

There's a hole the size of a small planet in our finances, and it has to be plugged

Agree 100%

oscarBravo wrote: »

....that will require further .... increases in taxation. It's not going to be fun, but unless you've got a better idea, it's inevitable.

Don't agree. Further tax increases for the private sector could push the country over the edge. The vast majority of the private sector, those who still have a job, have taken pay cuts of 10% - 20% - in addition to the tax increases. Further tax increases will push many of these into default situations - they simply won't have sufficient income to meet their outgoings. The situation is exacerbated in that many families depend on two incomes, and now many partners have lost their jobs.
I believe the only option is to cut the structural deficit - that will mean pay cuts, service cuts and redundancies right across the public sector. Without this I believe that the country will go bankrupt. Every day the hard decisions are postponed the likelihood of this increases. If it does, the EMF will set the political agenda and we will have a change of government in all but name.

thebman

One of the reasons to get rid of FF is that any new party can admit to the mistakes made in the past 15 years and correct them such as e-voting storage etc...

They can say, well that was a silly policy by the previous government and we are going to undo that now where as the current government will try to defend their mistakes for as long as they can get away with it no matter what the effect on the people or the country.

So it will benefit us to change government. The next government will have most of the same advisors etc... from the public sector so they won't mess things up, they just won't be in developers back pockets and trying to safe "friends" who may have information on them etc...

It is quite clear FF aren't really interested in acting in the interest of the nation. They would rather kill off the private sector in the nation than make proper cuts to public spending and public sector reform and force harsh realities on their invested interests.

bmaxi

Gambler wrote: »

I vaguely remember something from school about there being a provision that if a majority of the people who turn out spoil their votes in an election then the government as it is currently structured has to be dissolved and a new system put in place..

If that is true then that's the only way I can see a real shift in the political system coming about and that's just never going to happen..

I must say I never heard of that. Spoiling votes is a legitimate tactic in elections, to show disapproval with what is on offer. I seem to remember the Sinners advocating it in the North years back.
The problem I would see is, what parameters would be set down? who would decide what was a deliberately spoiled vote? ( remember the tabs farce in Florida?), the political parties are so adept at spin.
I still think the best method is to use your vote to decisively defeat the Government so they can make no claim whatever to legitimacy, remove the main players the Cowens, Lenihans, Harneys etc. from the scene altogether, never to darken the doors of Leinster House again, not just to the opposition benches to snipe. This is the clearest message.
After that, make it clear to those who take power, that this is a privelege that can and will be removed at the very first opportunity if they don't perform. The power is with the people, if only they realised it.

Gambler

bmaxi wrote: »

I must say I never heard of that. Spoiling votes is a legitimate tactic in elections, to show disapproval with what is on offer. I seem to remember the Sinners advocating it in the North years back.
The problem I would see is, what parameters would be set down? who would decide what was a deliberately spoiled vote? ( remember the tabs farce in Florida?), the political parties are so adept at spin.

Heh well given that the percentage of spoiled votes in notional elections is so small at the moment I think it would be hard to argue with a sudden jump to > 50% as anything other than a revolt but as I said it's just never going to happen.

bmaxi wrote: »

I still think the best method is to use your vote to decisively defeat the Government so they can make no claim whatever to legitimacy, remove the main players the Cowens, Lenihans, Harneys etc. from the scene altogether, never to darken the doors of Leinster House again, not just to the opposition benches to snipe. This is the clearest message.
After that, make it clear to those who take power, that this is a privelege that can and will be removed at the very first opportunity if they don't perform. The power is with the people, if only they realised it.

I agree that this is the only option we have, however lets say we have an election next month and the government is resoundingly beaten (something I would be in favour of, I voted against FF in the last election). In this imaginary setup lets say that the economy continues to decline (which I think will happen no matter what for a while yet) and the populace want another change. There is no mechanism by which the public can demand an election.

Gambler

I've done some more checking and I can't find any obvious references to it in the constitution. Not sure where I got that idea from now at all!

Darragh29

I'm a great beliver in the long plan and slowly chipping away at a problem sometimes!

I think we should start up a car sticker campaign along the lines of "We Want a General Election"...

Leave this with me for a few minutes!

Permabear

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Darragh29

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I wouldn't trust a Labour Government to stand up to Public Sector unions at the moment. Somewhere in our midst is a day of reckoning. Going by the form last week during the budget, it's clear this government are not going to deal with the public sector monster it has created, so I think the EMF or someone else is going to arrive here soon enough to sort it all out for us...

NewDubliner

hillel wrote:

If it does, the EMF will set the political agenda and we will have a change of government in all but name.

Darragh29 wrote: »

so I think the EMF or someone else is going to arrive here soon enough to sort it all out for us...

Who or what is the EMF?

RealityCheck

NewDubliner wrote: »

Who or what is the EMF?

Electromotive Force;) Must be some sort of force mechanism that forces the Government to actually make decisions :cool:

irish_bob

donegalfella wrote: »

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while labour are currently refering to type , i simply dont understand why fine gael have shunned thier conservative roots for fianna fail lite

heres an excellent article from david quinn in yesterdays indo

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/door-wide-open-for-fg-to-be-taxpayers-champion-1705178.html

Amberman

oscarBravo wrote: »

While I don't disagree with the broad principle you're expressing, the problem that many people don't quite seem to grasp is that the country is haemorrhaging money at a terrifying rate.

Imagine a household that has missed the last two mortgage payments, is at the limit of the overdraft and the credit cards, and has monthly bills well in excess of its monthly income. Sure, it would be nice to think that there's a relatively painless way to massage a few aspects of the finances and hope that things work themselves out eventually - but in reality, drastic action is called for, and it's not going to be fun.

devalue the currency and print money...oh...wait...we cant do that...and it would only be significantly less painful anyway...not pain free.

Guess we have to be crucified on the Euro cross for a while longer before we crack.

PS - The past is no indication of future performance