The Mess - Military Forum Off Topic Thread!

BoJack Horseman

Manic Moran wrote: »

They are very capable ships at their designed role.

Which I assume is simply a fault of design then!
The whole 'mission package' concept seems like an utter failure thus far.
It either doesn't work, (mine clearing) or even more incompetently, weighs too much (sonar package).... quite incredible really.

- Need to track down some mines?
'No problem, let me get back to San Diego for a couple of weeks to swap the mine-clearing package in.... be a jiffy!'
- Need to engage an enemy vessel?
No problem! I just need to head back to port for another couple of weeks, swap on 2 x 30mm guns & pray that the enemy isn't shooting from more than a handful of miles away & is still hanging around at all!
(remembering that the hellfire missiles are a much criticized afterthought)

Note that the USN is currently looking at a Frigate version of LCS which uses a lot of that spare capacity for a heavier, permanent weapons load out.

Only after it dawned on the brass that their glorified patrol boat was to be (after the Arleigh Burkes) the mainstay of the navy! (50+ vessels) & was hopelessly outmatched by anything any peer (or near-peer) navy was building.
So, yet more time & money wasted on what was very obvious from the get-go.

And still retaining the stupid (political) decision to split the class across 2 very different ship designs.

LCS is not under armed because the U.S. Couldn't afford it, it's armed to best do the jobs the USN needs it to do.

Thats the thing though.... they aren't doing anything!

America has incredibly signed on for a €360m-a-piece jet boat, which currently cannot peform any of its intended roles better than the Cyclone class or Avenger Class that preceded it.

ASuW package is on a par with our Beckett Class
ASW package that is too heavy to fit on the ship.
MCM package that quote "hasn't met expectations" (ie: doesn't work)
AAW capability so long as the target is only a few miles away.

but, you know..... it makes an impressive wake... perhaps that might scare off the enemy!

Dollar for dollar, personally I'd place the LCS programme as a bigger calamity than the F-35 programme.

AbusesToilets

The LCS is a joke at this point. Under gunned, lacking armor, lacking an organic anti-air capability. The USN needs to convince their paymasters to purchase the variant the Saudis are buying, especially since they are funding the development costs. It would be madness to continue to pursue the current model, but then again this is the same branch that decided that concurrently developing the Ford class carriers at the same time as their catapult system (which doesn't work properly, yet) was a good idea.

discus

I left the BA 2 months ago and now the world has gone to ****. Terrorists were waiting for me to leave I bet

Whats the bet's on boots on the ground in an African or Middle Eastern state by end-of-play 2015?

BoJack Horseman

discus wrote: »

Whats the bet's on boots on the ground in an African or Middle Eastern state by end-of-play 2015?

There are boots on many a ground across Africa & the ME?

discus

None of them are line units, I'm talking about new standard deployments of a division or army by european nations.

BoJack Horseman

discus wrote: »

None of them are line units, I'm talking about new standard deployments of a division or army by european nations.

France has around 10,000 deployed to Africa alone.... mostly regular service personnel.

discus

Ok I'll just say "ISAFesque longterm multinational operation"

BoJack Horseman

discus wrote: »

Ok I'll just say "ISAFesque longterm multinational operation"

In Syria, on such a scale?

possible, but not probable.

BoJack Horseman

So, 'Call me Dave' will announce some sort of spending review for the UK armed forces tomorrow....

some info is here.

The headline is 2 x "strike brigades".

Now, is this new??
I thought the UK (Like Russia & the US) was moving away from divisions to a brigade based force structure anyway?

Is this just re-announcing existing plans?

AbusesToilets

Maybe he means in total

BoJack Horseman

Couple of things from Dave Camerons speech today.

8 x Type26 ships, which may be tailored for anti-sub warfare?
but apparently also the design & creation of a new class of light frigate?
I guess this goes to What Sparky was saying regarding no one buying the Type 26 (and therefore another sop to BAE).

"And we will buy at least thirteen new frigates and two new offshore patrol vessels.
These will include eight Type 26 anti-submarine warfare frigates.
We will design and build a new class of light, flexible general purpose frigates.
These will be more affordable than the Type 26, which will allow us to buy more of them for the Royal Navy."

20 x "Protector" drones.... to replace the reapers.
I wonder what these are? will they be armed?

meanwhile, Jezz Corbyn wants a human rights adviser in every embessey.

BoJack Horseman

The USS Zumwalt was taken for a spin today.....



That is some silhouette.... like something from the us civil war.

discus

It does look like an old Ironclad!

Jawgap

Ken Burns style documentary on the Galactic Civil War.......

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/editorial/how-ken-burns-would-tell-the-story-of-star-wars/2015/12/18/2ed8ccaa-a5a4-11e5-8318-bd8caed8c588_video.html

BoJack Horseman

4 x Vanguard replacements...... that won't carry ICBMs?

Jezz we can!

BoJack Horseman

A nice story....

'Bitchin Betty' retiring

BoJack Horseman

Seen this earlier...
I know it's standard fare Islamist propaganda, with secondary school edits & default jihadi idol music.... but still.

What do people make of it?

The vehicles are totally exposed, the attackers are dug in and relatively safe & the ANA just sit there....
Surely it's not a trained tactic to sit there trading blows out in the open?

ectoraige

goldie fish wrote: »

The Navy consists of a fleet of 7 ships, each with a crew with an average of 50 people each. The Navy itself consists of over 1000 people. What do you think the others do when not at sea?

Tread water?

Manic Moran

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Seen this earlier...
I know it's standard fare Islamist propaganda, with secondary school edits & default jihadi idol music.... but still.

What do people make of it?

The vehicles are totally exposed, the attackers are dug in and relatively safe & the ANA just sit there....
Surely it's not a trained tactic to sit there trading blows out in the open?

It's not. But it looks like they sat there for a minute or two trying to evaluate the opposition and figure out if the best move was to stay or attack. Note that despite the highlighting, the first rocket/missile did not hit the truck they were aiming at, it's seen firing back with a rather large machinegun a bit later in the video. With no signficant damage taken, it may not have been a bad idea to sit around a until one can figure out what one is dealing with.

Once it finally got blown up, it looks like the ANA decided discretion was the better form of valor and high-tailed it out. What that last explosion is, I have no clue, note the editing in the time, even if the dust trail was the last ANA vehicle (Travelling on its own?!) the explosion was cut to an even later/darker period.

AbusesToilets

Whatever about the ANA's abilities or general lack there of, the terrain looks difficult and there is always the ever present threat of IEDs to worry about in those situations.

Jawgap

BoJack Horseman

Australia has finally selected a replacement for it's Collins Class submarines.

The winner was DCNS of France & a derivative of their Barracuda design

6 boats being replaced by 12.... the AU$50bn contract equating to €2.85bn per unit.

Nice looking boat, but it could be a white elephant at such a cost.

BoJack Horseman

This has been doing the rounds today, so some of you my have seen it.

helmet-cam footage of a small ISIS attack north of Mosul.
Interesting as it is without all the editing/music normally found in ISIS videos.

3 improvised vehicles lead this attack, with some improvised grenades interestingly
It did not go well.

Poor old Abu Hajar... you can see his colleagues are not happy with his performance!
Leave Abu alone!

AbusesToilets

There are few things scarier than being next to a booger with a RPG

Jawgap

BoJack Horseman

Meanwhile at the Russian embassy in London...

https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassy/status/730701444823826432
the internet helped them set the record straight though....
https://twitter.com/dsic/status/730766353532096513


(for anyone who remembers Command & Conquer Generals)

They just don't put the effort into lying anymore.

BoJack Horseman

Today Saab had the media launch for their new Gripen 'NG' today...

Bit faster, extra weapons pylons, AESA & IRST.
A big improvement.

AbusesToilets

Those IRST systems are going to be an interesting counterpoint to any stealth platforms going forward.

BoJack Horseman

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Those IRST systems are going to be an interesting counterpoint to any stealth platforms going forward.

Apparently up to 90kms detection range, with actual useful range of 60kms

Pretty good & a useful backup to radar, though the radar would normally have better range if it can see its target...

AbusesToilets

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Apparently up to 90kms detection range, with actual useful range of 60kms

Pretty good & a useful backup to radar, though the radar would normally have better range if it can see its target...

Maybe the US will get around to putting them on their planes going forward.

BoJack Horseman

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Maybe the US will get around to putting them on their planes going forward.

The only ones that don't have it are the eagles.... And I think some units will be getting it eventually.....

But the Falcons, Super Hornets & Lightening II's all have it.

AbusesToilets

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The only ones that don't have it are the eagles.... And I think some units will be getting it eventually.....

But the Falcons, Super Hornets & Lightening II's all have it.

They do? I thought 22 and 35 was lacking those sensor upgrades. Pretty nuts how technologically obsolete the next gen planes actually are in many ways.

BoJack Horseman

AbusesToilets wrote: »

They do? I thought 22 and 35 was lacking those sensor upgrades. Pretty nuts how technologically obsolete the next gen planes actually are in many ways.

The 22 doesn't (I think)..... But the 35 certainly has... And a very good one seemingly as it's multi-directional as opposed to an extra protrusion on the nose on a current plane.... Only scanning what is in front.

How are the next gen obsolete?

AbusesToilets

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

The 22 doesn't..... But the 35 certainly has... And a very good one as it's multi-directional as opposed to an extra protrusion on the nose on a current plane.... Only scanning what is in front.

How are the next gen obsolete?

Mostly in terms of their computing systems, and their sensor suites. The processors on the 22 for example are laughably slow, in the sub 100mhz I believe. Similar situation with some of the sensor and imaging tech, for example the 35 from what I've read isn't capable of interfacing with Rover feeds etc.

Products of the extended development time frame, though the 22 is certainly hampered from receiving upgrades by the closure of the production line, as evidenced by the delay with integrating the AIM-9x missile tech.

BoJack Horseman

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Mostly in terms of their computing systems, and their sensor suites. The processors on the 22 for example are laughably slow, in the sub 100mhz I believe. Similar situation with some of the sensor and imaging tech, for example the 35 from what I've read isn't capable of interfacing with Rover feeds etc.

How fast are the processor cores on the Falcons & Eagles?
Obviously much slower still... hence their enhancements are on pods which do the thinking for them.

But every stealth fighter from the Raptor to the J20 will has to have these capabilities programmed in...
It isn't necessarily inferior, just more time consuming than hanging a pod on one of the weapons pylons.

The 35 will eventually have ROVER link, actually an enhanced version of same... but not until block 4 (which is at about 6 years away!)

Products of the extended development time frame, though the 22 is certainly hampered from receiving upgrades by the closure of the production line, as evidenced by the delay with integrating the AIM-9x missile tech.

Not so much the line... but that the programming language is a rather old one called ADA83 (no idea what it's like).
Sensibly the F35 is mostly C & C++

AbusesToilets

Strikes me as perhaps poorly thought out when the program is being planned, that the processors etc wouldn't be easily upgrade able. It's of course easier to incorporate upgrades as new models are fielded, something unlikely to happen with 22, unfortunately.

That the 35, as a "CAS" platform is incapable of an air to ground link is pretty unforgivable, though that's probably low on the list of issues facing that plane.

BoJack Horseman

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Strikes me as perhaps poorly thought out when the program is being planned, that the processors etc wouldn't be easily upgrade able. It's of course easier to incorporate upgrades as new models are fielded, something unlikely to happen with 22, unfortunately.

Major problem alright.
Addressed by the F35 using more 'commercial off the shelf' design.
The F22's upgrade path is seemingly a grey area..
The DOD budgeted $600m to continue work on these 180-odd aircraft for 2016 alone..... the main hurdle apparently being that few people know this archaic language anymore.

That the 35, as a "CAS" platform is incapable of an air to ground link is pretty unforgivable

There will still be a data link & of course secure audio... there just won't be video transmission for a while yet.
But yes... you'd think it would be something built in at baseline.

BoJack Horseman

The 2 Dutch F-35s are starting their summer of air-show demos..
Below is from over the weekend.

They aren't pushing the boat out just yet, but you can see at 1:10 the rate of turn is very good.

AbusesToilets

That's pretty neat. I see F-35s fairly regularly flying where I'm at presently. Have they found a solution to the overheating issue that was causing them to have to keep bomb bay doors open in flight?

BoJack Horseman

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Have they found a solution to the overheating issue that was causing them to have to keep bomb bay doors open in flight?

They are in the process of testing all of the exposed pipes and cabling in the weapons bay to see if they can be certified for higher operating temperature.

Most probably will be, but were not certified as such so will have to be assessed.
Anything that doesn't pass will either be fixed or replaced.

The exposed cabling and pipes were to help mechanics get access to stuff and lessen the need to remove a body panel as would normally be the case in a plane.
You can see here that the bay is quite busy.

But once all of those bits & bobs are certified as being ok in high heat then the precautionary restriction will be lifted.
And tbh, according to pilots in training it's never been an issue as they aren't flying low enough for long enough to be a huge deal.

Jawgap

BoJack Horseman

$100m a unit flyaway cost as of next year's USAF budget...

Still $20m more than a super hornett or a new Viper, but getting there.

AbusesToilets

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

$100m a unit flyaway cost as of next year's USAF budget...

Still $20m more than a super hornett or a new Viper, but getting there.

Of course, it's not going to be operational next year, or the one after that....:pac:

BoJack Horseman

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Of course, it's not going to be operational next year

Do you think the above video was suspended by string or something?

AbusesToilets

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Do you think the above video was suspended by string or something?

You know as well as I do that there is a lot more to the F-35 being operationally functional beyond flying about.

BoJack Horseman

AbusesToilets wrote: »

You know as well as I do that there is a lot more to the F-35 being operationally functional beyond flying about.

And what isn't functional?

They are 6 months away from standing up the 1st 'A' squadron.... which means all planes, pilots & support staff for that squadron fully trained & operational.
In 8 months the first 'B' squadron is deployed overseas.
Block 3i is on every production unit.
Block 3F is on every test unit and will be on the productions units by year end.... by which time the full speed & flight envelop will be available.... (which makes the above video impressive in that it is still restricted, but already showing a far greater instantaneous rate of turn & rate of climb than the Viper).
AIM-120 / AIM-9X / JDAMs & GBUs are all working & JSOW/SDB certification started a few months ago.
And most importantly, the new version of ALIS is supposed to be rolled out in August & ready for the 'A' IOC & 'B' deployment by year end.

So, when you affirm that:

AbusesToilets wrote: »

it's not going to be operational next year, or the one after that

No harm in asking for you to elaborate.

AbusesToilets

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

And what isn't functional?

They are 6 months away from standing up the 1st 'A' squadron.... which means all planes, pilots & support staff for that squadron fully trained & operational.
In 8 months the first 'B' squadron is deployed overseas.
Block 3i is on every production unit.
Block 3F is on every test unit and will be on the productions units by year end.... by which time the full speed & flight envelop will be available.... (which makes the above video impressive in that it is still restricted, but already showing a far greater instantaneous rate of turn & rate of climb than the Viper).
AIM-120 / AIM-9X / JDAMs & GBUs are all working & JSOW/SDB certification started a few months ago.
And most importantly, the new version of ALIS is supposed to be rolled out in August & ready for the 'A' IOC & 'B' deployment by year end.

So, when you affirm that:

No harm in asking for you to elaborate.

Certainly a fair question. I was under the understanding that integration with weapons systems such as the SDB and the cannon have yet to occur. Has the plane under gone the full gamut of combat tests? ( the proper name escapes me presently). The last articles I had read, a few months back, stated they were still dealing with various issues, from the over heating mentioned before, to the helmet redesign and sensor integration.

Where have you read about the program development Bojack? I followed it mostly on foxtrot alpha (which seems to down?) and warisboring, with the occasional Janes or other outlet.

BoJack Horseman

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I was under the understanding that integration with weapons systems such as the SDB and the cannon have yet to occur

GBU-39 (the SDB-1) has been tested but not yet operational.
GBU-53/B (The (better) SDB-2) won't be starting integration until 2018
The internal cannon is supposed to be good to go when 3F is approved later in the year, however it is the external podded cannon for the B/C variant that is also years away.

Has the plane under gone the full gamut of combat tests?

That's the plan for the autumn.
The plane has to hit 3 mission capabilities in order to allow to be declared IOC:
- CAS (coordinating PGMs with ground operatives)
- Air interdiction: (successfully engaging airborne targets)
- SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defences)

The last one is the interesting one for me as a lot is counted on in it's ability to detect, classify & maneuver around radiation sources..... tbh, that will be it's main role in a peer-to-peer conflict.

The last articles I had read, a few months back, stated they were still dealing with various issues, from the over heating mentioned before, to the helmet redesign and sensor integration

There will be problems for years to come... that's what testing is for.
The heating is precautionary, it has never actually caused a problem... is apparently fixable.
The Gen3 helmet apparently is leaps & bounds ahead of the predecessor.
There were issues with the Gen2 and it blurring with quick movements when the plane shudders and latency, but apparently that is sorted.

Not sure about sensors... I know that the AESA and EOTS are working fine and display perfectly in the visor & screen.
I'm totally ignorant of any other stuff though.

I followed it mostly on foxtrot alpha (which seems to down?)

Tyler Rogoway has moved here, it's a subsite of the times.
It's ok.
You can see in the comments that he is having a 'Damascene conversion' wrt the f35....
He doesn't like people pointing out previous articles of him slating it.

warisboring

poor WiB... this was my favourite article of theirs, literally everything about it was false.
However if you are a podcaster do check out theirs, it's very interesting.

I'm also a fan of one of the Kinja bloggers, Jerry
You probably noticed him in the comments section in FoxtrotAlpha.
His articles on the test history of previous planes is fascinating & a useful context... these two I recommend:
http://jerryofgarcia.kinja.com/ioc-f-14-the-troubled-tomcat-1764702742
http://jerryofgarcia.kinja.com/f35-1768169893

F-16.net is a good site for resources... some of the techy-ness is beyond me and large in size, but its pretty good nonetheless.

Remember, it's easy to poo-poo things, but even the Eurofighter Typhoon is still in testing!

AbusesToilets

Cheers for the links Bojack.

I would probably be less skeptical towards the F-35 if the USAF et al weren't so insistent on killing the A-10 in its attempts to justify it. I have little doubt that it will eventually prove to be a capable bomber, however I don't think it will ever prove to be effective at the CAS role or as a fighter type similar to the F-16/ 18 that it's meant to replace.

BoJack Horseman

AbusesToilets wrote: »

the USAF et al weren't so insistent on killing the A-10 in its attempts to justify it.

I think that is a little inaccurate.
The USAF have always said that there will be a separate A-10 replacement programme.

Because the fleet as is is sustainable for another 12 years at least, it is not yet a priority.... however the AF will be proceeding in due course

The question is, what will it be replaced with.
The purpose of the plane is to smash Soviet armour, so if that mission is no longer on the cards, what replaces it?
And it has to be replaced, the spare part supply line shut down over 20 years ago, the fleet survives by cannibalising itself.

IMO, better drones & probably a propeller driven plane will replace it... but we will know in a decade.

And (again IMO) the F-35 isn't replacing the A-10, its largely already been replaced.... the F-35 is replacing it's replacement.

I've bigged up Jerry before, but do read this one about the A-10 , it's past present & future and the glorious pictures thereof
http://jerryofgarcia.kinja.com/fairchild-a-10c-the-wicked-warthog-1771117956

I don't think it will ever prove to be effective at the CAS role or as a fighter type similar to the F-16/ 18 that it's meant to replace.

Why not?

The Lightning can/is:
- Faster than the viper under combat load....as fast as the hornet
- More maneuverable than the Viper and similarly so to the Hornet
- Carries far more ordnance than either.
- Has better range than either.... much more than the viper.
- Can see the viper further away than the Viper can it, by an order of magnitude.... (the hornet is stealthier but can still be seen first).
- Has a better & more accurate gun, (if that will ever matter)
- And is on a different planet compared to the Harrier which it replaces in the USMC

Where will the Viper/Hornet be superior?