Latest Limerick shooting

population

Just reading the full details in the Indo today and it really sounds like a tragic case. This chaps father was warned there would be serious reprisals if his nephew testified against Wayne Dundon. He did his duty as a citizen and now there is a death and an ongoing threat hanging over the rest of his family.

I am sorry to say this but surely prison is just not a deterrant for these people. I mean there is no hope of "rehabilitation" in these circumstances, or am I missing something????

gazzer

Saw the father being interviewed on RTE1 earlier. God help that family. They do the right thing and their son is murdered by pieces of scum. Its heartbreaking. How many more inocent people have to die before these inbred scum are brought to justice?

VO

Hi,

I posted this earlier in Limerick/regions byt think it applieshere as well

When are the politicians in this country going to start giving proper protection to it's citizens. These peole need to be locked up and the keys thrown away. I am sick to the teeth seeing Judges handing down lenient sentencess to scum who rob, rape and murder. We have blleding heart liberals lecturing us constantly about "Prisoners Rights" , bad upbringing etc etc. We constantly listen to cases being taken to the Garda Ombudsman becuase criminals are being "abused"!! by our Gardai. The little scumbag who murdered the young Garda in Donegal in a stolen car is out on bail? What the f**k is wrong with we Irish? We put up with this **** and nothing changes.

We have politicians writing letters pleading for leneiency for murderers, rapists etc (If I am not wrong Willie O Dea was one of them)

It is time that these people were taken off the streets by whatever means is necessary. We should immediately introduce a Zero Tolerance & a 3 strikes and your out system similar to what they have in parts of the USA.

Also Prison should be a punishment not a f**king holiday camp with Gyms, TVs, Mobile phones etc . Punish these scumbags properly.

Build bigger prisons and fill tme immediately

turgon

population wrote: »

I am sorry to say this but surely prison is just not a deterrant for these people. I mean there is no hope of "rehabilitation" in these circumstances, or am I missing something????

But deterrence and rehabilitation are different things.

I mean prison rarely rehabilitates. A lot of the time people just get bitter in there and worse off. A full program of rehabilitation would be favored, whereby the criminal is forced to see the "light."

A sad case to be sure.

RealityCheck

Time for internment without trial

Dr Galen

VO wrote: »

Hi,


Build bigger prisons and fill tme immediately

which they have done in the US and had no success. Prisons then become little more than a crime university, where hardened criminals are spat out at the end of sentences. Proper rehabilitation and schemes to integrate convicted criminal back into society in meaningful way would achieve much more.

Liam Byrne

Fianna Failure's original election manifesto (ten years ago or whatever) including John O'Donoghue promising "zero tolerance".....

I guess that fell through once it transpired it would probably have to be used against their own and their buddies.

But it was promised and it needs to be delivered. These scum are doing this to deter others from doing their duty and reporting what they know.

Arm the Gardai and impose an "if you're 'known to Gardai' :rolleyes: and in a gang and you commit a crime, we shoot you - end of story" warning across the board.

And impose it.

VO

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

which they have done in the US and had no success. Prisons then become little more than a crime university, where hardened criminals are spat out at the end of sentences. Proper rehabilitation and schemes to integrate convicted criminal back into society in meaningful way would achieve much more.

Mystik, you have missed my point, these people are pure evil they cannot be rehabilitated so you lock them up for good. Don't let them out - ever. For too many years we have been hearing about rehabilitation and integration it does not work. Longer sentences, life meaning life not 10-14 years, no luxuries in prison, hard labour for the duration of their sentence. I firmly believe that the scumbag who pulled the trigger on this poor man in Limerick should either spend hi natural life in prison.

Why not concentrate societies efforts on the 99% of people who are not criminals - why should we have to take them into consideration at all.

realismpol

My solution is simple. We should not concern ourselves with the rights of people who forego their rights as citizens once they decide to murder innocent victims or they offend, reoffend then laugh at the gardai, justice system once they are on the steps of the court. I've actually witnessed them doing it.

Here's what we do. Just send out armed response units or s.w.a.t teams to 'take out' these criminal elements. Anyone carrying a gun is a fair target as automatic handguns are illegal. We must presume they are carrying with intent to use given their background, rap sheet and thus they become fair targets much like in the states. Use of force is therefore justified. The gardai and politicans know who these people are. Maybe at some level higher up they are connected. That is still a shady area and would explain the lack of action politicially to a certain degree. I mean they are both criminals one's just wearing a suit. Im sure there are a lot of profits from the drug buisness being passed around. We seen this in a donegal major drug dealing case a few years back. If this is the case we need a clearout of politicans also.

Im pretty much in favour of doing what they do in china and saudi arabia to criminals. They have very low crime rates because bascially if you commit murder you are lined up in front of a firing squad and shot or beheaded as is the case in saudi arabia. The whole idea or rehabilitating the criminal mind is a waste of time and not worth the money. Why try and rehabilitate a person who decides to go and murder an innocent person. There are some unique cases where rehabilitation may be justified but this is extremely rare. Much like a cancer you must destroy it to prevent it spreading. Accomodating a cancer will only kill the host.

The death penalty threat seems to have an incredible effect on the criminal mind, the threat of losing one's own life seems to have that effect even on criminals strangely enough. The whole problem is we have weak policiticans who are in with these people at a certain level and refuse to take harsh measures against them. Vigilantism may be down the road as their are a large amount of legally armed people in this country who may take things into their own hands if the gardai and justice system don't deal with these people properly.

We are a nation that has become pc to the point of laughability where the criminal gets rights over the citizen. Its time to end that.

Darragh29

realismpol wrote: »

My solution is simple. We should not concern ourselves with the rights of people who forego their rights as citizens once they decide to murder innocent victims or they offend, reoffend then laugh at the gardai, justice system once they are on the steps of the court. I've actually witnessed them doing it.

Here's what we do. Just send out armed response units or s.w.a.t teams to 'take out' these criminal elements. Anyone carrying a gun is a fair target as automatic handguns are illegal. We must presume they are carrying with intent to use given their background, rap sheet and thus they become fair targets much like in the states. Use of force is therefore justified. The gardai and politicans know who these people are. Maybe at some level higher up they are connected. That is still a shady area and would explain the lack of action politicially to a certain degree. I mean they are both criminals one's just wearing a suit. Im sure there are a lot of profits from the drug buisness being passed around. We seen this in a donegal major drug dealing case a few years back. If this is the case we need a clearout of politicans also.

Im pretty much in favour of doing what they do in china and saudi arabia to criminals. They have very low crime rates because bascially if you commit murder you are lined up in front of a firing squad and shot or beheaded as is the case in saudi arabia. The whole idea or rehabilitating the criminal mind is a waste of time and not worth the money. Why try and rehabilitate a person who decides to go and murder an innocent person. There are some unique cases where rehabilitation may be justified but this is extremely rare. Much like a cancer you must destroy it to prevent it spreading. Accomodating a cancer will only kill the host.

The death penalty threat seems to have an incredible effect on the criminal mind, the threat of losing one's own life seems to have that effect even on criminals strangely enough. The whole problem is we have weak policiticans who are in with these people at a certain level and refuse to take harsh measures against them. Vigilantism may be down the road as their are a large amount of legally armed people in this country who may take things into their own hands if the gardai and justice system don't deal with these people properly.

We are a nation that has become pc to the point of laughability where the criminal gets rights over the citizen. Its time to end that.

Couldn't agree more.

zig

realismpol wrote: »

The whole problem is we have weak policiticans who are in with these people at a certain level and refuse to take harsh measures against them. Vigilantism may be down the road as their are a large amount of legally armed people in this country who may take things into their own hands if the gardai and justice system don't deal with these people properly.

I am not joking when I say that I was actually thinking about this today as a genuine solution, theres a thread in after hours where Id mentioned it.

If the law cant protect us from being bullied and threatened by scumbags its time we took it in into our own hands.

turgon

The irony here is that if we did decide to take the law into our own hands we would be arrested and convicted without question, while those we were after would still be laughing.

Manic Moran

Anyone carrying a gun is a fair target as automatic handguns are illegal.

I presume you are excepting those who legally own licensed handguns and are taking them to the range.

That said, they won't be wearing it in their waistline, but will have it in the car most likely.

NTM

Darragh29

Here's what surprises me folks... How some high ranking Gardai have not sat down and formed a secret committee for dealing with this problem outside the remit of the law. If I was a Garda, especially one in charge of dealing with serious crime, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing that innocent people were getting murdered for standing up to known criminal gangs.

This is at least the third time in almost as many months, that I've seen innocent people heading to the morgue because the Gardai in association with the legal system, cannot deal with this issue and with gun crime. For the avoidance of doubt:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/1208/breaking13.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1110/1225925619592.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0411/breaking23.htm

If I was a Garda, against this backdrop, I'd be asking my colleagues to a meeting in a dark room with a view to sourcing some sniper rifles. It is obvious that no matter what the minister or the commissioner say to the press, they have lost this battle and will not be able to retain control of the situation. Like everything else in this country, the problem isn't dealt with effectively when it is a small problem, then it becomes an unresolvable crisis...

Darragh29

zig wrote: »

I am not joking when I say that I was actually thinking about this today as a genuine solution, theres a thread in after hours where Id mentioned it.

If the law cant protect us from being bullied and threatened by scumbags its time we took it in into our own hands.

I fully support vigilantism as the only way now that this problem can be resolved. Every single year without exception, gangland has moved further and deeper into every city in the country. When you have a 15 year old kid running around with a gun and shooting someone dead, you know you've lost control of the situation. When you have a guy getting shot dead for refusing a 14 year old girl illegal entry into a pub, you know you have a serious problem on your hands.

Anyone who continues to think that the Gardai are going to recover control of this situation is living in a parallel universe.

dlofnep

I feel so sorry for that family. I got really angry reading that story in the paper, and the chap looked nice a real nice guy too. Such a shame, a waste.. a complete injustice.

I say do some proper intel on these guys, round them up and feed them to the sharks.

old boy

turgon wrote: »

But deterrence and rehabilitation are different things.

I mean prison rarely rehabilitates. A lot of the time people just get bitter in there and worse off. A full program of rehabilitation would be favored, whereby the criminal is forced to see the "light."

A sad case to be sure.

they have a lovely way of doing the above in china, could we not come to an arrangement of sorts with the chineese.

LostinBlanch

realismpol wrote: »

My solution is simple. We should not concern ourselves with the rights of people who forego their rights as citizens once they decide to murder innocent victims or they offend, reoffend then laugh at the gardai, justice system once they are on the steps of the court. I've actually witnessed them doing it.

There is an argument that people who behave in such a manner have exempted themselves from society, thereby losing any rights they may have had under the social contract. The question remains at what point does this happen? Could there be "mission creep" where something brought in for one reason like antiterrorism laws are then used for other purposes like when the UK declared Iceland to be a terrorist state due to the icesave bank failure? What I'm trying to say is how can we be sure that a definition of knowingly breaking the social contract doesn't get extended too widely?

realismpol wrote: »

Here's what we do. Just send out armed response units or s.w.a.t teams to 'take out' these criminal elements. Anyone carrying a gun is a fair target as automatic handguns are illegal. We must presume they are carrying with intent to use given their background, rap sheet and thus they become fair targets much like in the states. Use of force is therefore justified. The gardai and politicans know who these people are. Maybe at some level higher up they are connected. That is still a shady area and would explain the lack of action politicially to a certain degree. I mean they are both criminals one's just wearing a suit. Im sure there are a lot of profits from the drug buisness being passed around. We seen this in a donegal major drug dealing case a few years back. If this is the case we need a clearout of politicans also.

But the states is far from the crime free utopia you paint it. As for the 2nd ammendment how many people have "gone postal" killing others with the free availability of guns? Could you be sure this couldn't happen here?

realismpol wrote: »

Im pretty much in favour of doing what they do in china and saudi arabia to criminals. They have very low crime rates because bascially if you commit murder you are lined up in front of a firing squad and shot or beheaded as is the case in saudi arabia. The whole idea or rehabilitating the criminal mind is a waste of time and not worth the money. Why try and rehabilitate a person who decides to go and murder an innocent person. There are some unique cases where rehabilitation may be justified but this is extremely rare. Much like a cancer you must destroy it to prevent it spreading. Accomodating a cancer will only kill the host.

OK you seem to have a very black and white view of who is worthy of rehabilitation which I'm not sure I agree with. I think people should be given a chance, maybe even two or three depending on circumstances. But I do recognise that there is a recidivist element who choose not to engage with society rather seek to exploit and profit from it, maybe these are the cancer to which you refer?

Also, have you been to Saudi Arabia? Do you think it'll be the example you wish to say it is? Would you prefer people to live under Saudi like conditions where you have the Mutawa (religious police) strictly enforcing obscure religous laws? I have been told of one particular case where two members of the mutawa went into a shopping centre and started beating a diplomats wife because her skirt was too short . . . with very serious physical consequences for her, not for the mutawa.

realismpol wrote: »

The death penalty threat seems to have an incredible effect on the criminal mind, the threat of losing one's own life seems to have that effect even on criminals strangely enough. The whole problem is we have weak policiticans who are in with these people at a certain level and refuse to take harsh measures against them.

Seeing as the states executes by far the largest number of criminals shouldn't they be the most crime free society on earth? Unfortunately the death penalty isn't always the deterrent you wish it to be.

realismpol wrote: »

Vigilantism may be down the road as their are a large amount of legally armed people in this country who may take things into their own hands if the gardai and justice system don't deal with these people properly.

People (rightly in a lot of cases) feel that they may need to fill the gap. But the state will always crack down on them harder as they pose more of a threat to it's legitimacy than the criminals. It's not right but that's what'll happen. Also vigilantism is open to abuse. Who says stop? When? Are the viggos open to other individuals or groups that have other agendas?

realismpol wrote: »

We are a nation that has become pc to the point of laughability where the criminal gets rights over the citizen. Its time to end that.

I agree here, victims rights have to trump the criminals. But a word of caution, it's not good to have the pendulum swing too far one way or another.

jimmycrackcorm

Manic Moran wrote: »

I presume you are excepting those who legally own licensed handguns and are taking them to the range.

That said, they won't be wearing it in their waistline, but will have it in the car most likely.

NTM

Perhaps it's time we removed the gun from Irish Society. Just because people want ot have a certain hobby doesn't mean they deserve the same. There also have been plenty of people murdered with legally held shotguns. Better to have a excess of badgers I say.

Manic Moran

Seeing as the states executes by far the largest number of criminals shouldn't they be the most crime free society on earth? Unfortunately the death penalty isn't always the deterrent you wish it to be.

I believe that honour goes to China. The US is in the low hundreds per year, China is in the mid-thousands. They also have a nice touch that they send the bill to the next of kin.

NTM

eddiehobbs

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

which they have done in the US and had no success. Prisons then become little more than a crime university, where hardened criminals are spat out at the end of sentences. Proper rehabilitation and schemes to integrate convicted criminal back into society in meaningful way would achieve much more.

That may work in some cases but you cant rehabilitate the likes of the Mc Carthy/ Dundons.

eddiehobbs

Manic Moran wrote: »

I believe that honour goes to China. The US is in the low hundreds per year, China is in the mid-thousands. They also have a nice touch that they send the bill to the next of kin.

NTM

By rights the least we should do is make convicted killers pay for or use their assets to pay for their legal bill on conviction instead of this free legal aid BS where the taxpayer foots the bill, especially considering the cost of keeping them locked up

ART6

old boy wrote: »

they have a lovely way of doing the above in china, could we not come to an arrangement of sorts with the chineese.

I believe they have mobile execution vans that travel around sorting out the crooks. All of the vans have doctors who, when the criminal is dead, cut him up for organs for transplant. I wonder if the death penalty would be a deterrent if the criminal knew that he would not only be executed but would also be cut up for parts?:D

Bottle_of_Smoke

Normally a liberal but this case is something that the democratic western justice system simply does not have the capacity to deal with.

During the troubles they had shoot to kill. If they could find out through informers who did this they should be taken out quietly. If this sort of thing continues vigilantes will come about.

Who would go to court now, how would you feel if a family member testified against a gang? These bastards can't get away with this, something needs to be done.

Sand

Theres plenty of powers on the books to be used against criminal and terrorist organisations. Not sure if the legislation for internment without trial is still on the books but if it isnt, just re-introduce it. Have the Gardai present a list and justify it to the Minister for Justice - then just raid all their houses one night, stick them in a pen and leave them there. Dev used similar tactics to break the IRAs stranglehold on Irish politics, theres no reason the same cant be done today.

If the state cant protect witnesses, then it might as well surrender to these scumbags right now. If thats not an option, then the gloves come off. It must never be forgotten that civillised society is built on a bedrock of violence and power. Shouldnt be afraid to use it to preserve that civillised society as needed.

Even if they catch the guys who killed this man, it will only be low level footsoldiers - and theyll have seen very good reason not to say who ordered them to do it.

Darragh29

The one thing I'm adamant on is that when someone completely innocent gets shot dead for giving evidence, the strategy has to change, the gloves have to come off.

This stiff upper lip rubbish talk of from the Gardai in Limerick, "We are confident we will win the war on gandland crime". It's way too late in the day for that kind of fighting talk when an innocent man is in the morgue.

Another point worthy of consideration... It is common knowledge that the government had the Garda riot squad on a prepared footing for the budget last week. It would appear that they have contingency plans in place, in the event of civil disorder breaking out in Ireland at any particular time.

Now back to Limerick for a minute... An innocent man gets shot dead for lawfully giving evidence against a gang member, and the best the Gardai in Limerick can come up with is, "We are confident that we will win the war on gangland crime"??? Am I missing something here??? The state has batons at the ready for the whole law abiding country in the event that people take to the streets to demand a general election, but the biggest threat to the security of the state puts two innocent men in an early grave, and the best the state can come up with is: "We are confident that we will win the war on gangland crime"???

LoveDucati2

Anyone with more than 10 convictions should be executed.

All criminals to be microchipped, tagged, and their DNA taken. Then there is no need for long trials, GPS pinpoints your location to within 3 feet and DNA evidence convicts you.

Internment brought back in, so what if there is a 1% error rate, its better to have 99% of criminals behind bars or dead than 1 free innocent person in jail.

Make prisoners work in jail.

Darragh29 wrote: »

The one thing I'm adamant on is that when someone completely innocent gets shot dead for giving evidence, the strategy has to change, the gloves have to come off.

This stiff upper lip rubbish talk of from the Gardai in Limerick, "We are confident we will win the war on gandland crime". It's way too late in the day for that kind of fighting talk when an innocent man is in the morgue.

The main problem is that the structure of the gardai is exactly the same as the government, one where incompetence rules.

How can you have an organisation where the future leaders and poilcy making staff can only be internally promoted.

We need new politicians and new police.

Hairy McGinty

I don`t see how we can give the Garda the power to break the law to take out those who break the law
Also the death penalty is not a deterrent , people commiting these crimes do not think that they are going to get caught
When they are caught they all find God and think that they should be spared because they are sorry now
Just look at programs like "lockdown or behind bars" nearly all couldn`t care less for their victims just moan about how hard it is for them
In Ireland all our so called gangland thugs if found guilty should be sent behind bars for life as they seem now to have no regard for human life what so ever but this can nor will happen as we don`t have the money to jail them all

Manic Moran

ART6 wrote: »

I believe they have mobile execution vans that travel around sorting out the crooks. All of the vans have doctors who, when the criminal is dead, cut him up for organs for transplant. I wonder if the death penalty would be a deterrent if the criminal knew that he would not only be executed but would also be cut up for parts?:D

The reason it is not done in the US is that almost none of the methods used leave organs fit for re-use (Mainly lethal injection, gas, electricity). Firing squad still permits it, indeed the last person to be executed by firing squad allowed his eyes to be donated to some person. However, only two States still even have firing squad on the books, and not as primary optionss

NTM

Southill

Its terrible