Should forum members report scammers?

Richard Dower

Reading the threads it seems like everybody knows somebody, in the end who does the burden of proof lay on?....should we all "do our bit" and report people we suspect or of scamming?

Or are we just looking to blame and get back" at someone, anyone for the current debacle?
Or should we all just shut the HELL up and stop making wild accusations and peeping out the window at the neighbours with the '09 car who we know is on the dole?

gcgirl

I think its gotting to a point where we are going to have to report and as much as much as i hate being a snitch there are a hell of amount of people that give genuine claments badnames!

aare

I think we will all get through this far more easily if we support one another rather than digging around looking for ways to stab each other in the back.

Most people want it that way, there are just a few who get a thrill out of believing they have the power to hurt someone else.

Welease

If someone is abusing it..report them... or don't complain when services are cut..

There is a finite budget available, and real adults and children do miss out on opportunities that could benefit them and the country by people defrauding the system for their own selfish benefit.

Edit for clarity - 09 car and unemployed doesnt mean they are scamming the system... knowing they are claiming and working is.. and that should be reportred.

aare

Honest to god...

Life has never gone out of it's way to be kind to me, any way you want to cut the cards..but I would rather cut my own throat than be responsible for the means of survival being taken away from another human being, guilty or innocent...

Trust me, it won't even save someone else...

ynotdu

For love of Country or Jealousy ?

Lobelia Overhill

T'is a tough one, at the end of the day it's hard to get benefits because of the faff you have to go through, so on the one hand fair play to anyone who's managed to find a loophole and exploit it, buuut the money comes from somewhere, and it's not fair on the "working man" ...

I heard about a woman [in the UK] who was on the dole, claiming single parent, child benefit and something else because she had a cousin living with her - she was clearing over £200 a week (this was about 20 years ago). Turns out she was working a night shift in a factory (the public don't see you, so no one need know), the fella she had living with her was in fact her BF and the father of her child, therefore she wasn't entitled to any of the benefits she was getting. I might have dropped her in it, as that's just extracting the urine. but then I wasn't the one who had proof that she was doing anything dodgy.

Someone threatened to report me [during the last Recession] cos I had a pony - bought with an insurance policy that had matured - I worked at the stables where I kept her in exchange for her "keep". Dole office knew about it cos the mother of one of the other kids worked there, nothing was ever said to me about it ...

Quartet

Richard Dower wrote: »

Reading the threads it seems like everybody knows somebody, in the end who does the burden of proof lay on?....should we all "do our bit" and report people we suspect or of scamming?
Or are we just looking to blame and get back" at someone, anyone for the current debacle?
Or should we all just shut the HELL up and stop making wild accusations and peeping out the window at the neighbours with the '09 car who we know is on the dole?

Ok this is a tricky one....

So you know of an indiviual unequivocally committing fraud by claiming a welfare payment they are not entitled to and dont need (lets say that in this scenario that there is fraud actually being committed)

Do you
a) Ignore it
b) Say something to them in the hope they will develop a conscience
c) Report the facts of the case to the relevant authorities

Ok so from the threads there would appear to be a range of opinions on this equating roughly to a), b), and c)

What is a fact that SW fraud is actually a criminal act. Just because it is taking money (ie theft) from someone you dont actually know doesnt mean that it is less excusable in terms of being both morally and crimally wrong.

lets us change the scenario to that of Bank Robbery being committed

So you witness an indiviual committing a bank robbery ie taking money from the bank they are not entitled too and dont need.
Do you

a) Ignore it
b) Say something to them in the hope they will develop a conscience
c) Report the facts of the case to the relevant authorities

Most people wil report a crime if they witness one and infact we are often called upon as responsible citizens to report criminal acts (crimecall etc).

Now lets add an additional factor to the Welfare Fraud and Bank Robbery scenarios

and here is the conundrum...The individuals committing the crimes both claim to need the money to pay living expenses - would we ignore the SW Fraud and the Bank Job and not report either or report one and not the other.

Is there a difference or do we have a right (legally or morally) to help ourselves to other peoples possessions when it is clearly wrong and should we be surprised if people report such criminal activity....

Reporting crminal activity is it backstabbing?

smelltheglove

I havent read all of this but first that comes to mind is be sure they are scamming.

I was a single mother working part time, I worked hard for 4 days a week for pittiful wages and saved all of my lone parents and fis to get affordable housing. Unfortunately the affordable people said I didnt earn ennough and turned me down. Luckily I had a family member in a bank who just about swindled a mortgage for me with my dad going guarantor.

Someone reported me for scamming the systme, I am 99% sure I know who it was, someone very jealous of my ability to buy a house at 22 and being a single mother but they were sure I was scamming, I wasnt, all they did was put me under enormous stress and fear that my money could be stopped, even though I did nothing wrong I was so afraid of not being able to pay my mortgage. I was reported within a month of buying my house, I do know people claiming more than they should, most of us do, but if anyone is going to report make sure you are not reporting falsley because it can cause a huge amount of upset.

eddiehobbs

To all those who say they wouldnt report welfare fraud spare a thought for the cystic fibrosis sufferers who wont be getting their 30 million euro unit because there isnt enough money, welfare fraud accounts for considerably more than this every year,

just a thought........

aare

eddiehobbs wrote: »

To all those who say they wouldnt report welfare fraud spare a thought for the cystic fibrosis sufferers who wont be getting their 30 million euro unit because there isnt enough money, welfare fraud accounts for considerably more than this every year,

just a thought........

eddie, last I heard the CF unit was back on stream, and going ahead - even after the budget.

If you know differently, please let me know?

eddiehobbs

aare wrote: »

eddie, last I heard the CF unit was back on stream, and going ahead - even after the budget.

If you know differently, please let me know?

Dont believe that it is. There is some talk of a public/private scheme but nothing confirmed that i know of. Was just using it as an example. I could give you plenty more if you need them. Point being that theres alot you could do with the amount of money being claimed fraudulently and for this reason i believe you should report those defrauding the system.

wylo

My sister worked for years and then decided to go to college for a year before going back working, she was denied the back to education allowance and grants on the grounds that she HADNT been on the dole long enough. They told her if she had been not working the previous 6 months she could have got it. I do appreciate that back to education is for people not working but it was literally like she was punished for working in a job she hated.

I know 2 people off hand working and claiming, its very hard not to report it when you have someone close to you being done out of benefits.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

If someone is getting cash in hand then it is hard to prove, if they are working in a legit business then they should be found out in the end. They will have to pay back what they falsely claimed.

What if someone was living in a differant address and their financial situation was the same. Given that the new address wouldn't allow them to claim, for some odd reason.

What about someone claiming social welfare, and not bothering to work, or to look for work. You know those people that are very happy to be on 200 a week and nothing more.

What about those who spend most of their money on beer or drugs?

I think there are different elements of scamming, someone driving a hilux and getting a lot of money (cash in hand) every week for certain jobs and claiming is just wrong.

I wouldn't anyway, I will keep to my own business. It's the best way to be in my opinion.

aare

eddiehobbs wrote: »

Dont believe that it is. There is some talk of a public/private scheme but nothing confirmed that i know of. Was just using it as an example. I could give you plenty more if you need them. Point being that theres alot you could do with the amount of money being claimed fraudulently and for this reason i believe you should report those defrauding the system.

Well, you will probably be delighted to know that I was right, and the CF unit WILL still be going ahead:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2009/0407/1224244138051.html

aare

wylo wrote: »

My sister worked for years and then decided to go to college for a year before going back working, she was denied the back to education allowance and grants on the grounds that she HADNT been on the dole long enough. They told her if she had been not working the previous 6 months she could have got it. I do appreciate that back to education is for people not working but it was literally like she was punished for working in a job she hated.

The irrationality of the training schemes have always beggared belief to my mind...they never seem to make any kind of sense, financially or otherwise...and it is for this reason that people say FAS is a joke.

Nikolai Shallow Sepia wrote: »

I wouldn't anyway, I will keep to my own business. It's the best way to be in my opinion.

I absolutely agree with you.

Hobbes

If you know someone who is commiting fraud you should report them. End of story.

If you don't report them, then you are just as much as the problem as the scammers. I'm not talking about "I heard of this guy who ...." but if you actually know then report it.

As for "my own business" if you pay taxes or receive social welfare then it is your business.

Quartet

Hobbes wrote: »

If you know someone who is commiting fraud you should report them. End of story...

Agree. Where there is definite proof of fraud being committed (where somebody is claimining something they have no entitlement to), what is best for everyone should dictate our actions (the greater good). If there are flaws in the Social Welfare system it does not follow that individuals should take advantage on it and choose to commit fraud. It only takes one person to ignore what is wrong for it to being to be accepted as the norm.

trickymickey

Hobbes wrote: »

If you know someone who is commiting fraud you should report them. End of story.

If you don't report them, then you are just as much as the problem as the scammers. I'm not talking about "I heard of this guy who ...." but if you actually know then report it.

As for "my own business" if you pay taxes or receive social welfare then it is your business.

when you report them do you let it be known it was you,
or can you hide and be all sneeky about it.
because i have 3 Polish neighbours who are all doing the double but they would wreck my gaff if i squelled on them.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Hobbes wrote: »

If you know someone who is commiting fraud you should report them. End of story.

If you don't report them, then you are just as much as the problem as the scammers. I'm not talking about "I heard of this guy who ...." but if you actually know then report it.

As for "my own business" if you pay taxes or receive social welfare then it is your business.

Utter rubbish, stick your nose in other peoples business and prepare to lose it. It causes more trouble than a little, and saying people are the problem if they do not reporting them is complete bullcrap. It's a lazy way, they should have this sorted since the beginning, with a proper system. Blaming the people for the governments mistakes, lolable...

Quartet wrote: »

Agree. Where there is definite proof of fraud being committed (where somebody is claimining something they have no entitlement to), what is best for everyone should dictate our actions (the greater good). If there are flaws in the Social Welfare system it does not follow that individuals should take advantage on it and choose to commit fraud. It only takes one person to ignore what is wrong for it to being to be accepted as the norm.

The social welfare offices have a system (maybe more) in place to prevent fraud, but guess what, they don't bother their arses implimenting it... Saying they don't have the manpower is crap too, they should hire someone for each office to prevent scams, it could save a lot of money in the long run.

How can you get definite evidence. Someone claiming they are scamming may not be enough. Then it could also be hard for them to prove it, you know?

aare

Quartet wrote: »

Agree. Where there is definite proof of fraud being committed (where somebody is claimining something they have no entitlement to), what is best for everyone should dictate our actions (the greater good). If there are flaws in the Social Welfare system it does not follow that individuals should take advantage on it and choose to commit fraud. It only takes one person to ignore what is wrong for it to being to be accepted as the norm.

Does that apply equally to, for example, FAS Officers who are scamming huge amounts out of the budget for personal use?

aare

Nikolai Shallow Sepia wrote: »

How can you get definite evidence. Someone claiming they are scamming may not be enough. Then it could also be hard for them to prove it, you know?

That is SO true...because when someone claiming they are scamming IS enough the whole system becomne one big, impersonal, tool for spectacular acts of personal malice.

Quartet

If there are flaws in the Social Welfare system it does not follow that individuals should take advantage on it and choose to commit fraud. It only takes one person to ignore what is wrong for it to being to be accepted as the norm.

Where a criminal act is committed it is not malice to report it...
This applies to everyone committing fraud, there are no special considerations and somebody committing fraud shouldn't expect any. There will always be people who may have malice of forethought however this doesn't cancel out that all types of fraud are wrong and doing what is right.

Everyone has to look to themselves and their own motives and reasoning. Where someone is committing fraud and their own conscience takes no part, then thats where the common good should prevail.

rugbynut

Look, can people not see that if the only people that were entitled to Social Welfare got social welfare then the budget we just witnessed would not have been so severe. If the government addressed the Social Welfare scams they would re-coup their 3 billion in no time. But because of these scams the paye workers are being screwed again. So yes, reporting the scammers is a must.

Richard Dower wrote: »

Reading the threads it seems like everybody knows somebody, in the end who does the burden of proof lay on?....should we all "do our bit" and report people we suspect or of scamming?

Or are we just looking to blame and get back" at someone, anyone for the current debacle?
Or should we all just shut the HELL up and stop making wild accusations and peeping out the window at the neighbours with the '09 car who we know is on the dole?

rugbynut

We are only targetting people who are claiming SW who are NOT entitled to it. It is effectively stealing money - your money and my money.

aare wrote: »

Honest to god...

Life has never gone out of it's way to be kind to me, any way you want to cut the cards..but I would rather cut my own throat than be responsible for the means of survival being taken away from another human being, guilty or innocent...

Trust me, it won't even save someone else...

Nothingbetter2d

NOT all welfare receipients are criminals but for those that are here is some suggestions to catch them

1st make it so you must have your children living with u in ireland in order to claim child benefit from the state then randomly select those claiming child benefits have to turn up to the welfare office with the actual children (with passports/id cards if not irish - birthcerts allowed if irish) before payment is given out. this will cut down on bogus claims. If your children live in a different EU state u should claim there for your child benefit.

2nd Manditory Drug Tests -- I dont see why I should pay more taxes to line drug dealers pockets and then have to pay even more taxes to have the law find, arrest, prosecute, and incarserate these drug dealers ---- Pass the test u get your dole money ---- Fail u get food vouchers --- time to quit drugs or get a job to pay for the habit & stop leeching off the state.

3rd Manditory Child welfare tax on those parents that do not have custody of their children to go into a welfare fund from which the custodial parent can receive this money. It ensures all single parents with custody of their kids get the money they require from the other parent to raise their kids as best as possible.the tax should be based on a percentage of the noncustodial parent's income regardless of whether they receive dole or work. -- U made the baby now u gotta pay for it.

aare

I haven't been looking at any of these threads for a few days, I needed a break from looking at all the scapegoating, scaremongering and hatespeech that was cropping up...

...but these are truly excellent, 100% fair and impartial suggestions that cannot possibly do anybody any harm:

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

NOT all welfare receipients are criminals but for those that are here is some suggestions to catch them

1st make it so you must have your children living with u in ireland in order to claim child benefit from the state then randomly select those claiming child benefits have to turn up to the welfare office with the actual children (with passports/id cards if not irish - birthcerts allowed if irish) before payment is given out. this will cut down on bogus claims. If your children live in a different EU state u should claim there for your child benefit.

2nd Manditory Drug Tests -- I dont see why I should pay more taxes to line drug dealers pockets and then have to pay even more taxes to have the law find, arrest, prosecute, and incarserate these drug dealers ---- Pass the test u get your dole money ---- Fail u get food vouchers --- time to quit drugs or get a job to pay for the habit & stop leeching off the state.

3rd Manditory Child welfare tax on those parents that do not have custody of their children to go into a welfare fund from which the custodial parent can receive this money. It ensures all single parents with custody of their kids get the money they require from the other parent to raise their kids as best as possible.the tax should be based on a percentage of the noncustodial parent's income regardless of whether they receive dole or work. -- U made the baby now u gotta pay for it.

It was a tonic to read that post,

Thank you,

ejmaztec

aare wrote: »

Does that apply equally to, for example, FAS Officers who are scamming huge amounts out of the budget for personal use?

Yes, I've had experience of some of those feckers (for want of a better word), all fiddling the expenses, some getting free computers and bits of furniture in their houses. One supervisor that I knew years ago went on a 350 mile round trip to Dublin on the train. When she came back, she decided that she would be able to get more travelling expenses if she pretended that she went by car, then used the mileage rate accordingly. Those schemes are licences for jolly old pals to print money.

Hobbes

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

1st make it so you must have your children living with u in ireland in order to claim child benefit

Have you actually read the rules on child benefit? I don't think you have.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/social-welfare-payments-to-families-and-children/child_benefit

You have to be working in Ireland to claim. So you are paying taxes so I don't see why a tax payer should be penalized. There is nothing to stop you moving your family to England and working here.

But have you tried moving a family to another country? It isn't easy and most people if they are moving here to do a minimum wage job it is unlikely they are going to be able to pay to move the family.

Also EU members have to prove every 3 months that they are working here. Non-EU members have to prove that they not only live here for a long time but also their children do too. So stories of Nigerians sending money back to imaginary children is just that, a story.

I agree that the checks on fraud should be more stringent but if the person is living here, contributing to the Tax then I don't see why they should be penalized for working here.

2nd Manditory Drug Tests

It is an interesting idea. I'd like to know how people trying to get off drugs would be impacted by a scheme.

Personally I am not convinced it will work. I still remember the time of the EU "ciggy vouchers" (otherwise known as butter vouchers).

Dealers will probably just launder them some how.

3rd Manditory Child welfare tax on those parents that do not have custody of their children

If the other half is to pay tax then they should be allowed to access to the child. Not every single parent is because the other half is not a good role model.

aare

Hobbes wrote: »

If the other half is to pay tax then they should be allowed to access to the child. Not every single parent is because the other half is not a good role model.

Though it is a completely separate issue, a million miles from the topic, I feel SO strongly on this that I have to pick it up and underline it...

If I live a thousand years I will never see how, unless there are serious, proven abuse issues, any parent should be expected to contribute to the maintenance of their child unless they are allowed a relationship with that child.

Maverick88

This is an issue in which I have a personal interest as I've been a Benefit Fraud Investigator for nearly 17 years. I would add I'm an investigator in the UK not Ireland, and while I've spoken to counterparts in DSW I do not claim to be an expert in DSW rules.

In the UK Benefit fraud is a crime, covered by either the Social Security Fraud Act or the Fraud Act. Its theft.

Benefit fraud is not a victimless crime.

By reporting someone you are not being judge and jury. You are merely alerting the DSW to a possible irregularity. No investigator is going to pull someone in just on the basis of an anonymous telephone call/letter. This is merely a referral which will be investigated.

My investigations have to be carried out in the same way as a Police investigation, and any interview has to be conducted in accordance to the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (PACE) the person is therefore cautioned, advised of their rights and the interview is taped.

The UK Social Security budget comes to approx £120 billion per year. It is believed that 10% of this lost through fraud and error.

I am unfortunately limited In what I can and cannot say.

As Investigators we are not in the business of stopping genuine claimants from receiving what they are entitled to receive.

Regards