Are unions the cause of the mess we are in???

Darragh29

dresden8 wrote: »

That's true, as a ps union member I have refused to be scapegoated by the likes of Jimmmy and his alleged friends.

I invite you to examine our cross-posting issues.

If your manager came in to work next Tuesday and said that you had to work an extra 5 hours a week to keep your job, how would you react to that???

I think the reaction would be to run down to the stop steward or get onto the branch secretary and organise a lightening strike. What pisses me off about unions is the attitude towards change. It is revolting to be honest. The attitude is, "we'll give you this if you give us that". It's like watching two kids trading marbles in a schoolyard. Productivity improvements and efficiency implementations are all seen as a bargaining chip to leverage more money and better terms from the state.

This is why we have an inefficient public sector, because unions are allowed hold change in the workplace to ransom for personal financial gain.

Darragh29

dresden8 wrote: »

You took it up the ass.

We all did last Tuesday, see the tool used to do the damage...

dresden8

Darragh29 wrote: »

If your manager came in to work next Tuesday and said that you had to work an extra 5 hours a week to keep your job, how would you react to that???

I'd tell him to go fnck himself. I've worked hard over the last ten years to build up my area of expertise. He needs me more than I need him.

Now that's real power. If you don't have the same claim in the private sector maybe you're not that indispensible and high value after all! Maybe starbucks will take you on.

dresden8

Darragh29 wrote: »

We all did last Tuesday, see the tool used to do the damage...

Yes, even the public sector.

McCruiskeen

dresden8 wrote: »

I'd tell him to go fnck himself. I've worked hard over the last ten years to build up my area of expertise. He needs me more than I need him.

Now that's real power. If you don't have the same claim in the private sector maybe you're not that indispensible and high value after all! Maybe starbucks will take you on.

LOL

I was trying to leave this debate as dresden8's head is obviously filled with cement, but now I'm beginning to think he's someone taking the piss and trying to wind us up.

Or mentally ill.

mikemac

Like most here, I've worked in union and non-unionised places.

There's been jobs where staff were basically abused. Like you finish at a hotel job at 4:30am and you're told to be in work the next day for 10am if you want to keep your job. lol, minimum rest periods! :P

We could have done with a union then. We tried to organize but it's never happened through apathy and most staff were part-time and many others weren't Irish and just took accepted these conditions.

And then I worked in a factory where the union has waaaay too much power. lol, the can't change a lightbulb if you're not an electrician happened here too.
It's seemed to work well though, they were the best employer in town but everyone knows that company will be gone in a few years which will devastate the town.
Procter & Gamble Nenagh.

Seems to me that unions don't seem to concentrate on people who need help the most. That's part-time, younger and usually foreign staff. The hotel industry is an example.

But instead they focus on staff in well paid jobs and just lap up the union fees.
Now you'll say maybe the union are a reason for the good conditons, but why don't they focus on other sectors?

eoinbn

As many others have said, yes they are part of the problem, but only a part. They really need to be more flexible. They need to accept that at times whats good for the government/company longterm is more important than what is good for the employees in the short-term.

dresden8

McCruiskeen wrote: »

LOL

I was trying to leave this debate as dresden8's head is obviously filled with cement, but now I'm beginning to think he's someone taking the piss and trying to wind us up.

Or mentally ill.

How so?

I know stuff. I've worked hard for ten years through a succession of idiot bosses. Are all private sector bosses wiser and more knowledgeable?

Did Dilbert lie to us all?

dresden8

mikemac wrote: »

Like most here, I've worked in union and non-unionised places.

There's been jobs where staff were basically abused. Like you finish at a hotel job at 4:30am and you're told to be in work the next day for 10am if you want to keep your job. lol, minimum rest periods! :P

We could have done with a union then. We tried to organize but it's never happened through apathy and most staff were part-time and many others weren't Irish and just took accepted these conditions.

And then I worked in a factory where the union has waaaay too much power. lol, the can't change a lightbulb if you're not an electrician happened here too.
It's seemed to work well though, they were the best employer in town but everyone knows that company will be gone in a few years which will devastate the town.
Procter & Gamble Nenagh.

Seems to me that unions don't seem to concentrate on people who need help the most. That's part-time, younger and usually foreign staff. The hotel industry is an example.

But instead they focus on staff in well paid jobs and just lap up the union fees.
Now you'll say maybe the union are a reason for the good conditons, but why don't they focus on other sectors?

Another true point.

Darragh29

dresden8 wrote: »

I'd tell him to go fnck himself. I've worked hard over the last ten years to build up my area of expertise. He needs me more than I need him.

Now that's real power. If you don't have the same claim in the private sector maybe you're not that indispensible and high value after all! Maybe starbucks will take you on.

I've worked hard over the last ten years, my area of expertise is my own job managing my businesses and I can also step in and carry out the tasks of any person working within my organisation. I've had to take a paycut and I've had to take on more responsibilities and work harder. You still have to learn the first lesson of employment, EVERYONE is dispensible. I've seen more gimps over the years strutting around with their head in the clouds stating arrogantly, "he needs me more than I need him". Nobody needs you, you are as dispensible as an empty milk carton.

And what is the first thing the gimp will say back to you when you tell them they are actualy dispensible??? "No, seriously, you don't understand, I am actually indespensible". Invariably I've found that the more a person thinks they are indispensible, the less they actually are. Everyone is dispensible, exceptions none.

dresden8

dresden8 wrote: »

I'd like to remind boardsies that the unions recently voted not to go on strike. A touch different from the idea of unions that are always on strike.

Worth posting again.

meglome

Darragh29 wrote: »

If your manager came in to work next Tuesday and said that you had to work an extra 5 hours a week to keep your job, how would you react to that???

I think the reaction would be to run down to the stop steward or get onto the branch secretary and organise a lightening strike. What pisses me off about unions is the attitude towards change. It is revolting to be honest. The attitude is, "we'll give you this if you give us that". It's like watching two kids trading marbles in a schoolyard. Productivity improvements and efficiency implementations are all seen as a bargaining chip to leverage more money and better terms from the state.

This is why we have an inefficient public sector, because unions are allowed hold change in the workplace to ransom for personal financial gain.

I'd have to agree. My experience in working in the non-unionised private sector was within reason you would help out, whether it was your job or not. Not saying you'd be asked to scrub the toilet but helping out was normal. I've had the same conversations with union people as the OP has. One of my best friends is a union guy representing the likes of SR Technics so believe me we've 'discussed' it but we don't agree.

Darragh29

dresden8 wrote: »

Yes, even the public sector.

When I said "we", I meant us all! We all got a lash of the strap-on last Tuesday...

dresden8

Darragh29 wrote: »

When I said "we", I meant us all! We all got a lash of the strap-on last Tuesday...

I thought we were agreeing.

I feel the need to point out again the PAYE employees. whether public or private got hit twice in six months, while the government has spent the last year deciding whether to hit the rich, or not. Odds are it will turn out not worth their while to do it.

The whole public/private battle is a tool of the rich to absolve themselves.

And to state my point clearly, yes there will need to be savings in the public sector pay bill.

jimmmy

dresden8 wrote: »

I'd tell him to go fnck himself. I've worked hard over the last ten years to build up my area of expertise. He needs me more than I need him.

Now that's real power. If you don't have the same claim in the private sector maybe you're not that indispensible and high value after all! Maybe starbucks will take you on.

Charming arrogance from a public sector worker.

jimmmy

McCruiskeen wrote: »

I was trying to leave this debate as dresden8's head is obviously filled with cement, but now I'm beginning to think he's someone taking the piss and trying to wind us up.

Or mentally ill.

+ 1

dresden8

jimmmy wrote: »

Charming arrogance from a public sector worker.

Well Jimmmy, tell us how much of a pay cut you have taken in the last several years to prove your credentials.

How much have you saved the country? And your employer?

I can't wait to hear.

jimmmy

Its irrelevant and none of your business. I may not even have an employer, shock horror, 14 days sickness benefit a year, 31 days annual holidays, 9 bank holidays, a guaranteed job or a pension. You do not pay your tax to support me. I do not work for you.

bdoo

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Like the teachers at the moment - if you are unhappy with the (very good) conditions at present, then get a job as a private teacher. But remember you wont have security, as good a pension, might not be paid for sick days ....

Like the way tou pick on teachers there Jonathan. Sure the job is secure and conditions are fairly good. Problem is many teachers are on fixed term contracts and can be sacked whenever mostly younger ones it has to be said. Clearly I'm a teacher. I may well not have a job in Sept.

Tough sh*t you say? It may be, but the fact is that I have no more job security than anyone in the private sector.

I went to college and worked fairly hard for my degree and chose to go into teaching. Loads of my mates did trades and computers etc made a fortune and were driving the Audi;s and 4x4's all over the place, fair play. Now the situation has changed and I'm the bad one...give me a break.

When the economy was booming nobody wanted anything to do with teaching sh*t money compared to what could be made elsewhere. Now a few people lose their jobs and it's our fault. Get real.

There is incredible waste in the public sector I know but it's not at the front line with teachers and nurses etc. Look at all the officials giving poor advice to the government on their massive salaries and then they hire external consultants too - what a joke. Dont even get me started on tribunals, Dail committees and the useless local authorities.

In relation to the union issue check out www.tui.ie and find out what the teacher union TUI stands for, youll find it's not all about pay and conditions. You'll never hear of a teacher having a demarcation dispute with a counsellor, psychologist, parent, who we have to stand in for.

dresden8

jimmmy wrote: »

Its irrelevant and none of your business. I may not even have an employer, shock horror, 14 days sickness benefit a year, 31 days annual holidays, 9 bank holidays, a guaranteed job or a pension. You do not pay your tax to support me. I do not work for you.

Jimmmy, we're all in this together. If you feel free to pontificate about others you should have the common decency to state your position. If you feel free to commentate on 300,000 or so public servants you should state your point of view. You whiff of hypocricy. Nay, you stink of it.

Darragh29

bdoo wrote: »

Like the way tou pick on teachers there Jonathan. Sure the job is secure and conditions are fairly good. Problem is many teachers are on fixed term contracts and can be sacked whenever mostly younger ones it has to be said. Clearly I'm a teacher. I may well not have a job in Sept.

Tough sh*t you say? It may be, but the fact is that I have no more job security than anyone in the private sector.

I went to college and worked fairly hard for my degree and chose to go into teaching. Loads of my mates did trades and computers etc made a fortune and were driving the Audi;s and 4x4's all over the place, fair play. Now the situation has changed and I'm the bad one...give me a break.

When the economy was booming nobody wanted anything to do with teaching sh*t money compared to what could be made elsewhere. Now a few people lose their jobs and it's our fault. Get real.

There is incredible waste in the public sector I know but it's not at the front line with teachers and nurses etc. Look at all the officials giving poor advice to the government on their massive salaries and then they hire external consultants too - what a joke. Dont even get me started on tribunals, Dail committees and the useless local authorities.

In relation to the union issue check out www.tui.ie and find out what the teacher union TUI stands for, youll find it's not all about pay and conditions. You'll never hear of a teacher having a demarcation dispute with a counsellor, psychologist, parent, who we have to stand in for.

I'm not that long out of secondary school, (I did my leaving cert in 1994), and the one memory of school that I have is the fact that in all my years in school, I only had one teacher who I would consider to have been an absolute inspiration and a positive influence in my life. This was my teacher in 3rd class in Drimnagh Castle.

Between 3rd Class in Drimnagh Castle and 6th year in secondary school in 1994, (not in Drimnagh Castle), I can't remember one other teacher that stood out in terms of ability or talent. Not one that inspired me, not one that I would say did anything more than the absolute bare minimum to make me a better person at the end of the academic year than I was at the start of the same year.

To me, the job is hugely important, but the calibre of person ending up as a teacher to my mind is open to debate, and the transparency and objectivity that ought to be required with regard to teacher performance and ability is completely absent.

Funny that they also happen to be highly if not exclusively unionised. Whenever you see any attempt to monitor or appraise the performance of teachers, you hear the usual extremely wooly language coming from the union, for example, "it is simply not possible to MEASURE the contribution that a teacher makes to society". BULLSH*T!

No matter what industry or sector you try it on, when public unions are present, you will see obstruction and subtle confusion introduced when anyone tries to measure and evaluate the work that is being done.

ixoy

dresden8 wrote: »

Jimmmy, we're all in this together.

Not my favourite line to be honest - it reminds me too much of the unions who say that on one hand, but on the other refuse to countenance pay cuts (which would help us all out) or any sense of reform.

FWIW, I contract to the public sector. I was speaking to a friend of mine over this recently and figured that the government should really re-adjust the way I'm paid that would both keep me in employment (but with reduced safety) and cut down their own costs. I don't want them to but it's the sort of approach they should be taking (I'm being deliberately vague with details here).

jimmmy

dresden8 wrote: »

Jimmmy, we're all in this together.

Rubbish. You say you want to be in it together....yet you have the attitude to write about being asked to work a few hours extra "
I'd tell him to go fnck himself. I've worked hard over the last ten years to build up my area of expertise. He needs me more than I need him.
Now that's real power. If you don't have the same claim in the private sector maybe you're not that indispensible and high value after all! Maybe starbucks will take you on."

dresden8 wrote: »

If you feel free to pontificate about others you should have the common decency to state your position.

OK, you work it out. I do not have an employer able to borrow billions to pay my c0-workers wage demands..... or shock horror, I do not have 14 days sickness benefit a year, or 31 days annual holidays, or 9 bank holidays, a guaranteed job or a pension. As I said you do not pay your tax to support me. I do not work for you. What I work at is my business. I would like to say however I work long and hard and over the course of my life have paid quite a lot of tax to your employer, for him to pay you.

dresden8 wrote: »

If you feel free to commentate on 300,000 or so public servants you should state your point of view.

I have.

dresden8

ixoy wrote: »

Not my favourite line to be honest - it reminds me too much of the unions who say that on one hand, but on the other refuse to countenance pay cuts (which would help us all out) or any sense of reform.

FWIW, I contract to the public sector. I was speaking to a friend of mine over this recently and figured that the government should really re-adjust the way I'm paid that would both keep me in employment (but with reduced safety) and cut down their own costs. I don't want them to but it's the sort of approach they should be taking (I'm being deliberately vague with details here).

A lot of vague stuff has to happen here, at all levels.

The government has chosen to go for PAYE workers, and at the same time blame the public sector, who are also PAYE workers. The rich can't be touched because they're "systemic".

I've said it before,

Plus ca changes, plus ca meme choses.

dresden8

jimmmy wrote: »

.

Severe lack of detail there Jimmmy.

mikemac

jimmmy, is every single one of your posts about your issues with the public service?

I don't spend much time in this forum, I've never quoted you or anything before but every post seems to be much the same thing.

Got an opinion on the OP's question? Which is a good question and an interesting thread imo

dresden8

mikemac wrote: »

jimmmy, is every single one of your posts about your issues with the public service?

I don't spend much time in this forum, I've never quoted you or anything before but every post seems to be much the same thing.

Got an opinion on the OP's question? Which is a good question and an interesting thread imo

Thank you God, my work here is done.

jimmmy

mikemac wrote: »

jimmmy, is every single one of your posts about your issues with the public service?

No. The thread is about Unions and the mess the country is in. Its a fact that most of the public sectors workers I know are in a union, and none of the private sector workers I know well are. The unions really represent mostly the public service if you ask me. I know they represent / represented some workers in large factories like Waterford Crystal. Most people I know do not think much of unions, simple as that.

dresden8

Even the ones who have gotten so much money they can't spend it no matter how many luxury holidays they take?

Now that's principaled. What guys. It's a pity they could never be persuaded to return the excess money.

dresden8

Jimmmy, for the good of the country, please convice your thieving no good layabout mates to give the money back to the country.

It's the least you could do as a patriotic Irishman.

Tiocfadh ár Spoofer!!!!