Ranting about music???

empty_vessal

I'm just wondering what exactly it is about why people feel so compelled to force their opinions on music on people or indeed why people feel so strongly about what they view as good/bad music.

I was just flicking through some threads there and it got me thinking of a few examples, I won't go into them for fear of steering the thread in a different tangent. I'm guilty of this myself but why do people often need to say a band is ****e because they sound like a group from 20 years previous, does that actually make the music less pleasurable to listen to?

Another thing, I was at a festival last year and a band came on who had a hugely popular track over the summer only to be booed from some factions of the crowd.

Why bother, if you don't like them why ruin it for other people?

Does it all just come down to people vigorously trying to force their musical identity out there or make some point? If so, why?

Karl Hungus

Why is it, when people discuss music, it often gets brushed off as 'forcing their opinions'? Music, like any other topic, is completely open to discussion, otherwise why have any boards dedicated to music? Music is quite largely a part of people's lives, it can be something they're greatly passionate about, you can't expect everyone to just nod and say 'yep' in agreement just because opinions are opinions. I find people who avoid discussing it have limited tastes, lack confidence in their musical choices, or simply don't actively listen to any music bar what's on the radio or played outside.

I'm guilty of this myself but why do people often need to say a band is ****e because they sound like a group from 20 years previous, does that actually make the music less pleasurable to listen to?

Because unoriginality is not something to be praised? When music that is blatantly ripped off from another source, it's something that should be pointed out, and the band responsible should be called out for it.

Davei141

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Why is it, when people discuss music, it often gets brushed off as 'forcing their opinions'? Music, like any other topic, is completely open to discussion, otherwise why have any boards dedicated to music? Music is quite largely a part of people's lives, it can be something they're greatly passionate about, you can't expect everyone to just nod and say 'yep' in agreement just because opinions are opinions. I find people who avoid discussing it have limited tastes, lack confidence in their musical choices, or simply don't actively listen to any music bar what's on the radio or played outside.



Because unoriginality is not something to be praised? When music that is blatantly ripped off from another source, it's something that should be pointed out, and the band responsible should be called out for it.

I have never agreed more in my life. Superb post.

Nolanger

Karl Hungus wrote: »

When music that is blatantly ripped off from another source, it's something that should be pointed out, and the band responsible should be called out for it.

Hear that Coldplay fans!

Latchy

The thing I dont understand is why some people restrict their musical tastes to just one genre than discard anybody who has a liking for a particular piece of music , group or artist for a particular decade or era. I have noticed that a lot of under 25s are discovering that 'what's really old ,is really new ' . In other words music that has gone before will always come back around and never die ,even if it's being sampled or on a new mix release .You only have to see the advertisements on tv with classical music as background and pop /rock hits from every decade as well .And this is good because people will always discover other stuff by accident or design and yes, nearly everybody in rock,pop,folk soul ..you name it copy other peoples stuff .

Rigsby

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Why is it, when people discuss music, it often gets brushed off as 'forcing their opinions'? Music, like any other topic, is completely open to discussion, otherwise why have any boards dedicated to music? Music is quite largely a part of people's lives, it can be something they're greatly passionate about, you can't expect everyone to just nod and say 'yep' in agreement just because opinions are opinions. I find people who avoid discussing it have limited tastes, lack confidence in their musical choices, or simply don't actively listen to any music bar what's on the radio or played outside.



Because unoriginality is not something to be praised? When music that is blatantly ripped off from another source, it's something that should be pointed out, and the band responsible should be called out for it.

I dont think anybody minds a discussion on music as long as no one is bad mouthing someone else's tastes. I think the OP means when things develop into a slagging match. In this case no one benefits. Music discussion in a civil way is great, as it might lead to finding a new band or a type of music you might not have been interested in previously. As for music being "ripped off", this has been happening for decades. Elvis "borrowed" a lot of songs from black musicians, who got paid a pittance. I never hear much criticism of him for that. It's part of the music industry's machinery.

There is no such thing as "bad" music IMO, as it means different things to different people, and is in the "ear" of the beholder. A fifteen year old can be as enthusiastic a listener/fan of "Boyzone" as a "more mature" person can be of Bach, albiet, most likely for different reasons. Neither is right to say the other's music is bad.

nyarlothothep

I think the problem revolves around certain people ie journos and scensters try to impose a kind of conformity of taste, ie this band sucks because they haven't followed the rules whereas this band is great because they neatly fit into the category we have set.

Stompbox

Nolanger wrote: »

Hear that Coldplay fans!

how do you hear text?!;)

Rigsby

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I think the problem revolves around certain people ie journos and scensters try to impose a kind of conformity of taste, ie this band sucks because they haven't followed the rules whereas this band is great because they neatly fit into the category we have set.

This is very true. If people had the cop on to seek out music for themselves, and not be led by others, then they might surprise themselves at how much other music there is out there to be enjoyed.

lordgoat

The problem i have is that for some people music means more to them than others. And trying to explain to someone how a piece of music can stir something inside you and make you become more aware/feel something/move you/make a difference/resonate on some level to someone that pops on a cd and la la la's along with or goes sure it's only music to you is not just difficult but never going to happen.

I have no problem with journos or scensters or somone who just knows their music. Whatever type it is but knows that the words written or the melody or some obscure note or key change in the middle makes you take heed and go - that's what it's ****ing about. Regardless if i think what they are listening to is complete **** i can at least see why they feel that way.

I'll never forget hearing In the Lost and Found by Elliott Smith for the first time and when the piano change comes towards the end to compliment the lyric -day breaks every morning when he wakes and thinks of you. Or the drums in everything means nothing to me. This is what music means to me.

So give me them anyday to the todayfm listening chorus hummers any day.

I felt there wasn't enough ranting in this thread.

Panthro

well im a mastodon fan who recently bought imelda mays album and the ting tings album..like it or ****e it im lovin it!

Rigsby

lordgoat wrote: »

I'll never forget hearing In the Lost and Found by Elliott Smith for the first time and when the piano change comes towards the end to compliment the lyric -day breaks every morning when he wakes and thinks of you. Or the drums in everything means nothing to me. This is what music means to me.

So give me them anyday to the todayfm listening chorus hummers any day.

I felt there wasn't enough ranting in this thread.

That's what music means to you. That's fair enough.



That's what music means to them. That (should be ) fair enough.




Re your last line : True. Makes a refreshing change.

Kold

Music for a lot of people is a passion and therefore they will get passionate about it. Like any of the arts we have our likes and dislikes and we all have our own ideas about what it should be (hopefully these ideas will expand). This is why discussion forums exist, to voice our opinions on certain things. If you just wanted a back patting thread about a certain artist most of them tend to have their own message boards brimming with fanboyism. But this is the Music Forum on Boards.ie.

The fact is, pop music is for the very most, a bunch of b*llocks. The genre is based around taking things from other genres and mashing it up into a watered down, overproduced, easy listening hit. Fair enough but look at the money they rake in... From doing nothing original themselves. A pop artist tends to be a barely capable musician but more important is the image. Also, the messages they tend to send out are awful. It can actually be pretty enraging, I'm not usually trying to make the point that 'I listen to better music than you', it's more along the lines of 'I'm pretty sure Beyoncé was spawned by Satan to inspire materialism and whorishness'. You know... Just putting it out there.

Rigsby

Kold wrote: »

Music for a lot of people is a passion and therefore they will get passionate about it. Like any of the arts we have our likes and dislikes and we all have our own ideas about what it should be (hopefully these ideas will expand). This is why discussion forums exist, to voice our opinions on certain things. If you just wanted a back patting thread about a certain artist most of them tend to have their own message boards brimming with fanboyism. But this is the Music Forum on Boards.ie.

The fact is, pop music is for the very most, a bunch of b*llocks. The genre is based around taking things from other genres and mashing it up into a watered down, overproduced, easy listening hit. Fair enough but look at the money they rake in... From doing nothing original themselves. A pop artist tends to be a barely capable musician but more important is the image. Also, the messages they tend to send out are awful. It can actually be pretty enraging, I'm not usually trying to make the point that 'I listen to better music than you', it's more along the lines of 'I'm pretty sure Beyoncé was spawned by Satan to inspire materialism and whorishness'. You know... Just putting it out there.

As I mentioned earlier, no one wants a "back patting " thread, merely a civil, enlightening discussion thread ( like this one ). No one learns anything from a "slagging" thread. It's the nature of the beast for music to take bits and pieces from other genres. For instance, rock borrowed heavily from blues. Originality comes from taking an existing piece of music and putting your own stamp on it. It's done by all the jazz greats. That's how music keeps evolving. If an artist or band makes a lot of money from what you percieve to be s****e, then you cant blame him for having a go. No one holds a gun to anyone's head to buy this stuff. Unfortunately, above all else, music is an industry.

empty_vessal

I'm glad to see this has turned into such an interesting discussion and I agree with a lot of what has been said. I was getting at the whole 'you listen to what I deem ****e therefore you are ****e' attitude. I wholeheartedly encourage an open discussion of anything related to music as an exchange of opinions as opposed to an attempt to change opinions. People do define themselves to a certain extent by what they listen to so I think its horrible to knock that. Just like a catholic vs protestant, black vs white, man vs woman etc.

Personally speaking I think I'm happy to listen to people voice their passion if they have an "expanded" taste in music. Nothing makes me angrier than chatting to somebody who says they love all kinds of music but 'all kinds of music' is based solely on what presented to them on mainstream radio, oblivious to the fact that there is an awful lot more out there. Its ignorance really that annoys me.

What I was getting at earlier about a band being construed as ****e because they have a similar sound to something that came 20 years before was Interpol in particular. A lot of people say they are basically a rip off of Joy Division and instantly write them off. Let me point out that I'm a big Interpol and Joy Division fan and I don't see it at all. That being so, if Interpol are influenced and thus have a similar sound to Joy Division, why should that change how people view them. You either enjoy the music or don't. It would be hypocritial of me not to point out that its the same for 'pop' music. Whilst, yes it annoys me that most places you go to for a drink will involve listening to a variety of aural tripe it does appeal to the masses and who am I or indeed who is anyone (does that make sense???) to detract from that for people.

Going back to the ignorance thing, are people who prefer pop less open minded to music in general. as in if its not on the radio it must be crap?

Kold

Kold

Rigsby wrote: »

It's the nature of the beast for music to take bits and pieces from other genres. For instance, rock borrowed heavily from blues. Originality comes from taking an existing piece of music and putting your own stamp on it. It's done by all the jazz greats. That's how music keeps evolving. If an artist or band makes a lot of money from what you percieve to be s****e, then you cant blame him for having a go. No one holds a gun to anyone's head to buy this stuff. Unfortunately, above all else, music is an industry.

I think you can totally blame someone for not having the integrity to be an actual artist and merely being a figurehead to what's wrong with the music industry. Not everyone who makes money is a sell out, plenty of groups out there have made a nice living out of making good, original music. I don't agree with you that there isn't bad music. In my opinion there is no comparison between say, Bach and Boyzone. In the same way that there's none between a steak and a Happy Meal. The kids may go for the Happy Meal but a steak is undeniably better (unless it's well done...).

In my opinion, above all else, music is an artform. The whole industry part of it is in dire need of reform.

Dudess

People sneering at others' tastes - bad.

E.g. if someone starts a thread asking where they can find a particular Coldplay rarity, don't bother answering the thread if all you have to contribute is "Why would anyone like Coldplay?" type responses.
If someone starts a thread proclaiming a particular band to be the best band ever, then yes, they're inviting naysayers. But the naysaying can be done in a non condescending way.

People sneering at people being passionate about music - bad.
If you can't fathom how a person would be a major music lover, fine. Leave them to it.

Rigsby

Kold wrote: »

I think you can totally blame someone for not having the integrity to be an actual artist and merely being a figurehead to what's wrong with the music industry. Not everyone who makes money is a sell out, plenty of groups out there have made a nice living out of making good, original music. I don't agree with you that there isn't bad music. In my opinion there is no comparison between say, Bach and Boyzone. In the same way that there's none between a steak and a Happy Meal. The kids may go for the Happy Meal but a steak is undeniably better (unless it's well done...).

In my opinion, above all else, music is an artform. The whole industry part of it is in dire need of reform.

Nowhere in my post did I say "everyone who makes money is a sell out". What has "integrity" to do with anything. An artist makes music, if the buying public like it then they buy it, not because of the integrity of the artist, but because the music appeals to them in some way. Yes, some "artists" might be chancers. Wheather they be a rich or poor chancer is for the buyer to decide. As for Bach v Boyzone..... it's all music, and just a matter of personal taste.

I agree that music is an art form, but one that is exploited by the music industry, thus making it a commodity as well. As long as the buying public are prepared to be taken in by it, and not seek out music for themselves, then it will never be reformed IMO.

lordgoat

I agree with alot of Kold's views but differ in some. I don't have that much of a problem with pop music or 'd'industry'. I've become ok with a catchy snappy two minutes for some reason... I also think crazy in love is one of the best pop songs there's been but overall it means nothing to me (oh vienna).

The times we live in the majority of everything is to make a buck etc. But to say music is afterall an industry is a bit off the mark, yes that's part of it now but surely Chopin or Wagner weren't thinking about album sales? I do think how society has now changed and how music is marketed means you have to look harder but that doesn't mean music has become better or worse, just how it is pumped into your ears so that it bludgeons young teenagers with shiny pretty people and easy to remember words. Empty vessles make most noise.

My point is, if i have one, is that while music is there for everyone, it is understood/appreciated by some better than others.

Other aside points.

Telling someone to not comment is a great way to encourage discussion. If you don't understand something - ignore it? I'd say the exact oppopsite to this. If someone says something you don't agree with i think you are justified in asking them about it. Albeit in a non confrontational way.

Music come and goes in cycles, imitation and elaboration are part and parcel of the game. To use the original example, someone loves interpol find joy division through a snotty comment. Loves joy division. Who loses there?

lordgoat

Rigsby wrote: »

An artist make music, if the buying public like it then they buy it, not because of the integrity of the artist, but because the music appeals to them in some way.

I agree that music is an art form, but one that is exploited by the music industry, thus making it a commodity as well. As long as the buying public are prepared to be taken in by it, and not seek out music for themselves, then it will never be reformed IMO.

Illegal downloading surpasses sales for a lot of artists so this is changing by in large. Add to that that record sales are down by larger and larger percentages over the last decade so changes are underfoot. Internet streaming also makes music much accessible... There is alot to consider other than the buying public, i think people realised they have been taken for cash cows for too long and the playing fields are leveling.

Rigsby

lordgoat wrote: »

My point is, if i have one, is that while music is there for everyone, it is understood/appreciated by some better than others.

Good post. I agree with a lot of it. The above quote has me puzzled though. It smacks a little of "high brow ism" and superiority. If a piece of music ( any type) in some way appeals to or touches someone, what is there to "understand". ..... unless you want to play in on a musical instrument.

Rigsby

lordgoat wrote: »

Illegal downloading surpasses sales for a lot of artists so this is changing by in large. Add to that that record sales are down by larger and larger percentages over the last decade so changes are underfoot. Internet streaming also makes music much accessible... There is alot to consider other than the buying public, i think people realised they have been taken for cash cows for too long and the playing fields are leveling.

All very true. The fact remains though, that the majority are there to make money, albeit through a different channel, other wise it would not be illegal to download in certain circumstances.

lordgoat

Rigsby wrote: »

Good post. I agree with a lot of it. The above quote has me puzzled though. It smacks a little of "high brow ism" and superiority. If a piece of music ( any type) in some way appeals to or touches someone, what is there to "understand". ..... unless you want to play in on a musical instrument.

Ya i was trying to avoid that. If you listen to something and it appeals to you and you can find that feeling again, not often perhaps then that piece of music becomes special to you. Compare this to someone that never gets this and may be quite content with that but maybe they're missing out on something too...

liah

I just have one thing to say.


Fúck music elitists.


I used to be one. Sometime during highschool, I thought that listening to anything on popular radio was a mortal sin. I liked being an elitist. I liked that I could talk about bands nobody knew, and say that I discovered them first when they eventually rose to popularity. I have no idea why. Myself now and myself then are two entirely different people, it seems, and evidently it’s for the best.


As demonstrated by my last.fm, my musical tastes have expanded quite considerably. I now listen to everything from the tragically beautiful and equally uplifting Sigur Rós to the (often quite disturbing) offensive lyrical genius of Bloodhound Gang without so much as batting an eye.


I respect and appreciate the differences in all genres of music. Mind, not all are for me— I can’t really see myself actively listening to death metal, or an awful lot of Britney Spears, but I’m sure I could turn my ear to one or two tunes and see the light that their fans seem to.


What I don’t understand is why people are so highly judgemental and elitist in regards to music, or any of the arts, really. What is truly so hard about understanding someone else may like something that differs to you? Just because it doesn’t appeal to you doesn’t make it awful. It gives you no license to ridicule them. Is it so difficult, so incomprehensible to simply state that they’re not your preference, and move on?


So often people will find me listening to a song and immediately rebuke me for it, often on the grounds of “no talent,” or simply “they’re crap.” Honestly, who cares? Is it really such a big deal that you immediately have to go on the offensive? Do you truly hate said band or artist so much that you must belittle them at every turn? Does it make you feel better about your apparent musical genius? That you just happen to be the only one given the ability to detect good music, and therefore your opinion is the be-all and end-all of the industry?


Cop on.


There are many things in life worth debating and analyzing. Music does not happen to be one of them. Music is a very versatile and personal art form. Every style is going to appeal to a different audience. There is not a single song that every person around the globe will appreciate. The definition of “good music” is simply what appeals to you.


So get your butt on last.fm (I don’t work for them, I swear!). Go to the page of an artist of a genre you normally wouldn’t listen to. Play that artist’s radio. I guarantee you will find at least one thing from that genre that appeals to you if you open your mind and your ears. Don’t worry if people judge you. It’s just ignorance. Listen to whatever the bloody hell you feel like listening to, and tell any other elitist to get a grip.


Find a worthy cause and use your criticism to help it out instead of wasting your efforts on music. People are allowed to like whatever the hell they want, and it's no bloody business of yours to be calling it shíte just because it doesn't suit you.

Rigsby

liah wrote: »

I just have one thing to say.


Fúck music elitists.


I used to be one. Sometime during highschool, I thought that listening to anything on popular radio was a mortal sin. I liked being an elitist. I liked that I could talk about bands nobody knew, and say that I discovered them first when they eventually rose to popularity. I have no idea why. Myself now and myself then are two entirely different people, it seems, and evidently it’s for the best.


As demonstrated by my last.fm, my musical tastes have expanded quite considerably. I now listen to everything from the tragically beautiful and equally uplifting Sigur Rós to the (often quite disturbing) offensive lyrical genius of Bloodhound Gang without so much as batting an eye.


I respect and appreciate the differences in all genres of music. Mind, not all are for me— I can’t really see myself actively listening to death metal, or an awful lot of Britney Spears, but I’m sure I could turn my ear to one or two tunes and see the light that their fans seem to.


What I don’t understand is why people are so highly judgemental and elitist in regards to music, or any of the arts, really. What is truly so hard about understanding someone else may like something that differs to you? Just because it doesn’t appeal to you doesn’t make it awful. It gives you no license to ridicule them. Is it so difficult, so incomprehensible to simply state that they’re not your preference, and move on?


So often people will find me listening to a song and immediately rebuke me for it, often on the grounds of “no talent,” or simply “they’re crap.” Honestly, who cares? Is it really such a big deal that you immediately have to go on the offensive? Do you truly hate said band or artist so much that you must belittle them at every turn? Does it make you feel better about your apparent musical genius? That you just happen to be the only one given the ability to detect good music, and therefore your opinion is the be-all and end-all of the industry?


Cop on.


There are many things in life worth debating and analyzing. Music does not happen to be one of them. Music is a very versatile and personal art form. Every style is going to appeal to a different audience. There is not a single song that every person around the globe will appreciate. The definition of “good music” is simply what appeals to you.


So get your butt on last.fm (I don’t work for them, I swear!). Go to the page of an artist of a genre you normally wouldn’t listen to. Play that artist’s radio. I guarantee you will find at least one thing from that genre that appeals to you if you open your mind and your ears. Don’t worry if people judge you. It’s just ignorance. Listen to whatever the bloody hell you feel like listening to, and tell any other elitist to get a grip.


Find a worthy cause and use your criticism to help it out instead of wasting your efforts on music. People are allowed to like whatever the hell they want, and it's no bloody business of yours to be calling it shíte just because it doesn't suit you.

That is exactly what I was trying to say through this thread.


I think the seed of rebuking others for the music they listen to is sown in our early teens. That's when we are very conscious about the fashion of the time, i.e. clothes, music, hairstyle ect. Generally, teenagers down the years have taunted their parents for being "uncool" or "square". Then they have children of their own and the cycle continues.