Will the government ever grasp the nettle of public sector pay ?

K-9

gurramok wrote: »

I see where you come from, call it 'Benchmarking III'

Consultants and TD's, their salaries would be slashed in half by a new report.

And some public workers have a different view of what low pay actually is. I asked it before and managed to get an answer of about 30k as low pay from only one poster but as from another thread, it was established that 30k is probably the median wage of the country!!

There will come a point were increasing taxes and cutting public spending will start doing long term damage. There has to be focus on job creating initiatives. There has been some but more needs to be done.

I noticed the consultants didn't mention anything about levies etc. at their conference, focused on service cuts instead.

On the wage thing, it's very hard to get what is low pay as it's very subjective. Average industrial wage isn't really representative anymore as services is our biggest employer now.

Revenue figures suggest something like 30/40% of the Private Sector or on minimum wage or lower, but that isn't true either. The hourly wage rate shows only 5% are on minimum wage as it counts part time workers.

I suppose a good measure is Revenue. Over about 38k you are taxed at 41%.

P. Breathnach

gurramok wrote: »

... And some public workers have a different view of what low pay actually is. I asked it before and managed to get an answer of about 30k as low pay from only one poster but as from another thread, it was established that 30k is probably the median wage of the country!!

Perhaps it is not only public service employees who have a questionable view of pay levels. I dug this out of the CSO site (2007 is the latest year covered):
===============
Annual Average Earnings and Other Labour Costs by Type of Employee,
Industry Sector NACE Rev 2, Year and Statistic
2007
All Payments for time worked and not worked (Euro)
All employees
__________________
Industry (B-E) 39,194
Mining and quarrying (B) 46,088
Manufacturing (C) 36,389
Food products, beverages and Tobacco (10-12) 26,492
Textiles, wearing apparel, leather (13-15) 37,903
Wood and paper products (16-17) 33,385
Printing (18) 37,924
Petroleum, chemical and chemical products (19-20) 50,232
Pharmaceutical products (21) 52,565
Rubber and plastic products (22) 31,098
Non-metallic mineral products (23) 37,492
Basic metals and structural metal products (24-25) 34,488
Computer, electronic and optical products (26) 42,751
Other electrical equipment (27) 35,152
Machinery and equipment n.e.c. (28) 35,747
Motor vehicles (29) 30,811
Other manufacturing (30-32) 35,094
Repair and installation of equipment (33) 36,945
Electricity, water supply and waste (D-E) 55,900
Financial and insurance activities (K) 52,878
Banking and Insurance (64-65) 53,734
Other financial (66) 49,455
===============

Sorry that I could not keep the pretty formatting.

K-9

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Perhaps it is not only public service employees who have a questionable view of pay levels. I dug this out of the CSO site (2007 is the latest year covered):
===============
Annual Average Earnings and Other Labour Costs by Type of Employee,
Industry Sector NACE Rev 2, Year and Statistic
2007
All Payments for time worked and not worked (Euro)
All employees
__________________
Industry (B-E) 39,194
Mining and quarrying (B) 46,088
Manufacturing (C) 36,389
Food products, beverages and Tobacco (10-12) 26,492
Textiles, wearing apparel, leather (13-15) 37,903
Wood and paper products (16-17) 33,385
Printing (18) 37,924
Petroleum, chemical and chemical products (19-20) 50,232
Pharmaceutical products (21) 52,565
Rubber and plastic products (22) 31,098
Non-metallic mineral products (23) 37,492
Basic metals and structural metal products (24-25) 34,488
Computer, electronic and optical products (26) 42,751
Other electrical equipment (27) 35,152
Machinery and equipment n.e.c. (28) 35,747
Motor vehicles (29) 30,811
Other manufacturing (30-32) 35,094
Repair and installation of equipment (33) 36,945
Electricity, water supply and waste (D-E) 55,900
Financial and insurance activities (K) 52,878
Banking and Insurance (64-65) 53,734
Other financial (66) 49,455
===============

Sorry that I could not keep the pretty formatting.

They seem reasonably accurate.

I assume food & beverages is catering and hospitality?

The rest are all over 30k and 8 sectors are over 40k.

zootroid

Letter to the editor from the Irish Times:

Madam, – I would like to thank Jonathan Law (April 16th) for his excellent suggestion that public servants’ income be benchmarked against that of unemployed people.

I am a full-time civil servant of 25 years experience in areas including social welfare. My weekly gross pay is €540. My actual take-home (net) after various levies and deductions is €267. After the Budget changes it will be significantly less from next month,

As an unemployed person, my means-tested personal rate of assistance would be €204 per week, plus an entitlement to a medical card and ancillary benefits from the health board to help me with my fuel bills and mortgage.

If I were to be benchmarked against unemployed people who don’t pay any levies or deductions on their income, my salary would double overnight as no Government could conceivably suggest clawing back half of people’s welfare benefits via income deductions. (In the recent Budget it has effectively done this to people under 20 on the dole, but to attempt the same across the board would be political suicide).

Given that I work in a line section which processes several hundred thousands of euro a week in welfare benefits, I doubt that any benchmarking exercise would determine the value of my job at less than €540 per week.

My morale is lifted by Mr Law’s expression of solidarity. If his suggestion is heeded, maybe I can look forward to a pay rise sometime soon? Bring it on, I say. – Yours, etc,

DAVID FAY,

Cabra,

Dublin 7.

I don't believe for a second that his take home pay is less than 50% of his gross pay, especially when he is earning less than 30k a year

jimmycrackcorm

zootroid wrote: »

Letter to the editor from the Irish Times:



I don't believe for a second that his take home pay is less than 50% of his gross pay, especially when he is earning less than 30k a year

Yes -especially after 25 years experience - the only public servant in the country who has never heard of automatic increments.

NewDubliner

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Perhaps it is not only public service employees who have a questionable view of pay levels. I dug this out of the CSO site (2007 is the latest year covered):
===============
Annual Average Earnings and Other Labour Costs by Type of Employee,
Industry Sector NACE Rev 2, Year and Statistic
.

Useful figures, but some potentially high paying jobs not included....IT consulting, legal services, advertising, marketing, accountancy, private training.

spank_inferno

zootroid wrote: »

Letter to the editor from the Irish Times:



I don't believe for a second that his take home pay is less than 50% of his gross pay, especially when he is earning less than 30k a year

If that letter writer was going to lie like that he could have at least made it a plausable lie.

I'd dare say his personal tea & biscuit allowance in the break room comes close to €250 pw

ixoy

NewDubliner wrote: »

Useful figures, but some potentially high paying jobs not included....IT consulting, legal services, advertising, marketing, accountancy, private training.

I'd assume IT is under "Computer, electronic and optical products". The figures there seem roughly accurate - IT can pay well but, in my experience, most of it doesn't.

P. Breathnach

NewDubliner wrote: »

Useful figures, but some potentially high paying jobs not included....IT consulting, legal services, advertising, marketing, accountancy, private training.

I think most of them are there. The breakdown is by sector, not by type of work performed.

gerry28

I asked it before and managed to get an answer of about 30k as low pay

Unfortunately 30K doesn't go very far in our expensive little country. Relative to the UK and most other EU countries it has to be considered low pay.

K-9

gerry28 wrote: »

Unfortunately 30K doesn't go very far in our expensive little country. Relative to the UK and most other EU countries it has to be considered low pay.

A large cost would be housing costs. Rents have come down as well as mortgages.

More importantly, house prices are down by up to 40% in some reports, which will have a knock on effect for First Time Buyers.

Basically, some costs have come down, but I think people still expect to get paid the same!

Would be interesting to see those wage figures for 08.

ParkRunner

It seems public sector workers can lose their jobs after all, up to 1,700 in the HSE to be precise. So much for job security and a job for life

Gumbo

K-9 wrote: »

A large cost would be housing costs. Rents have come down as well as mortgages.

More importantly, house prices are down by up to 40% in some reports, which will have a knock on effect for First Time Buyers.

Basically, some costs have come down, but I think people still expect to get paid the same!

Would be interesting to see those wage figures for 08.

yes house prices have come down but people like myself and im sure thousands more are still paying the mortgage on their property boom prices.

my mortgage is still 1350 per month, thats for a modest 3 bed house in finglas with no front garden (just so you cant argue that i bought beyond my means ) i didnt wana buy in port laoise or Ashbourne or KElls or anywhere else. unfortunely (sp) no matter what happens with wages i will still have to pay that mortgage!

thats what i cant understand, i can take paycuts, i can do my bit to help the economy but y mortgage will still be high and more than likely take up 75% of my salary!

dresden8

Hillel wrote: »

WE established some (VERY CONSIDERABLE) time ago that we ARE talking about a LEVY and NOT pay cuts. Sorry for shouting, but it appears that the message is being lost in the noise.

(It would have been far better if it had been a pay cut, as the pensions bill would have been cut, as well.)

You established nothing. This levy confers no pension entitlements and is levied on income which is not pensionable.

It is an abortion of a paycut because the government didn't want tens of thousands of retired public servants with nothing better to do camping out in their clinics.

K-9

kceire wrote: »

yes house prices have come down but people like myself and im sure thousands more are still paying the mortgage on their property boom prices.

my mortgage is still 1350 per month, thats for a modest 3 bed house in finglas with no front garden (just so you cant argue that i bought beyond my means ) i didnt wana buy in port laoise or Ashbourne or KElls or anywhere else. unfortunely (sp) no matter what happens with wages i will still have to pay that mortgage!

thats what i cant understand, i can take paycuts, i can do my bit to help the economy but y mortgage will still be high and more than likely take up 75% of my salary!

Exactly.

We can't all look for wages that cover property bubble mortgages or wages will never get competitive. The most important driver of higher wages was mortgages!

That's why I think the Govt. should help out in some way there. It's unfair that banks get bailed out for granting and profiting from these mortgages, yet the taxpayer still has to pay the full amount.

Normally I'd say "you signed the contract etc.", but in that case I've sympathy.

P. Breathnach

dresden8 wrote: »

... It is an abortion of a paycut because the government didn't want tens of thousands of retired public servants with nothing better to do camping out in their clinics.

As a retired public servant, I dissent. I can find lots of better things to do than camp out in a politician's clinic. I have to keep an eye on what's being said here, and the grass needs to be cut.

Hillel

P. Breathnach wrote: »

As a retired public servant, I dissent. I can find lots of better things to do than camp out in a politician's clinic. I have to keep an eye on what's being said here, and the grass needs to be cut.

My grass needs cutting, too. Any chance of a "dig out"?

Hillel

ixoy wrote: »

I'd assume IT is under "Computer, electronic and optical products". The figures there seem roughly accurate - IT can pay well but, in my experience, most of it doesn't.

IT did pay well, particularly for contractors. All that has changed. There is still a market there for more responsible positions; architects, designers, experienced business analysts and business process specialists. Even here, the cost of top drawer expertise is down 30% - 40% on two years ago. The market for programmers, testers etc. has collapsed. The is some demand for Java skills but the expectation is that these would be augmented by good analysis skills.

dresden8

P. Breathnach wrote: »

As a retired public servant, I dissent. I can find lots of better things to do than camp out in a politician's clinic. I have to keep an eye on what's being said here, and the grass needs to be cut.

If your pension was cut?

NewDubliner

Hillel wrote: »

IT did pay well, particularly for contractors. All that has changed. There is still a market there for more responsible positions; architects, designers, experienced business analysts and business process specialists. Even here, the cost of top drawer expertise is down 30% - 40% on two years ago. The market for programmers, testers etc. has collapsed. The is some demand for Java skills but the expectation is that these would be augmented by good analysis skills.

Any idea of what the daily contract rates are now?

Last year, I heard quotes of 800-1500 euro a day for skills ranging from common HTML coders up to hard-to-find specialists in obscure systems.

My rule of thumb is that if you halve the contract rate, you get an idea of the employee rate.

That's why I think that the listing might not include these jobs.

ixoy

NewDubliner wrote: »

Last year, I heard quotes of 800-1500 euro a day for skills ranging from common HTML coders up to hard-to-find specialists in obscure systems.

My rule of thumb is that if you halve the contract rate, you get an idea of the employee rate.

Are you talking about the rates consultancy firms charge versus what the employee gets into their hands? 'Coz it ain't close to half - it's a fair bit less (that goes for two of the big IT firms).

P. Breathnach

dresden8 wrote: »

If your pension was cut?

I'm surprised that it hasn't yet happened.