Will the government ever grasp the nettle of public sector pay ?

leitrim lad

cliste youll never learn,


in the 70s 80s and 90s we survived alot better than now with 1/3 the amount of public servants screwing us and we had a far better way of life back then ,

so you know my next lines

privatise, privatise, privatise

p45 p45 p45 all round if need be

Hillel

Firetrap wrote: »

I used to work in the public sector. The vast majority of people where I worked were hard working and had meaningful jobs, not paper pushers. There was nobody who got to sit around all day doing sudoku puzzles. It's a stereotype that people who want to vent about public servants are more than willing to buy into.

I too used to work in the public sector and I had to get to hell out. It was stifling! Everything based on seniority and length of service. Overt bullying when someone worked too hard. (They were showing up their colleagues!) Yearly increments, no matter what. Performance management was a joke - no one believed in it.

Firetrap wrote: »

I am not denying that there are lazy sods in the public service but believe me, I've met worse in the private sector.

The difference is that lazy sods in the private sector can, and do, get fired!

ixoy

Cliste wrote: »

I would hesitate to cut public servant pay, and you have done little to convince me otherwise. Yes there are lazy bastards there, but there's far more hard workers there as well. Now I would like to see how exactly the nurses, teachers etc etc are overpaid.

Cutting pay wouldn't be as a punishment - it'd be because it's necessary. The bill is, I believe, 20bn which is something we need to drastically reduce. If we are all in this together, then we all need to do the best for the country - and that means a change in pay and/or conditions. I fully expect to get my own pay cut later this year and have already seen tightening elsewhere.

The easiest option is to cut pay as then you don't have to worry about redundancy lump sums and you reduce the pension bill. Long term, the better option is to match it with huge reform.

Firetrap

Hillel wrote: »

I too used to work in the public sector and I had to get to hell out. It was stifling! Everything based on seniority and length of service. Overt bullying when someone worked too hard. (They were showing up their colleagues!) Yearly increments, no matter what. Performance management was a joke - no one believed in it.


The difference is that lazy sods in the private sector can, and do, get fired!

Not where I was. It had moved over to behavioural interviews - length of service counted for jack sh!t. No bullying either. The attitude was that we had a job of work to do and we did it. It's easy to generalise and say Public Servants = lazy bloated overpaid bastards. Private sector = lean, mean, hard workers.

Anyway, back on topic. I think it's inevitable that wages will fall further. I question the wisdom of issuing P45s en-masse though. It could have a ripple effect in the wider economy. Public servants don't exist in an isolated bubble - they pay taxes back to the exchequer. They buy things in shops. They have mortgages. They have kids etc. I don't doubt that there will be streamlining but I don't know if the nuclear option is good.

A large proportion of public servants are in their late 40s/50s now - most seem to retire at 60. A lot of them will be gone within a decade.

leitrim lad

hesitation is not an option it must be done and 90% of these quangoes must go aswell,

also an taisce must be desolved and its members stoned, for their objective nature, remember they appoint themselves they are not elected, objecting shower of [EMAIL="bast@rds"]bast@rds[/EMAIL]

and mary coughlan is first on my p45 list, she created mass unemployment in limerick (dell) and in her home county donegal (boston scientific) and now in dublin (srt) she was sent in to negociate and save jobs maybe even do a good enough deal to create more , when infact she done the oppossite and her ministerial title is minister for enterprise trade and employment

should be minister for closing enterprise, abolishing trade and creating unemployment



, i my eyes the way shes going she would be the right one to send in to clear out the banks.

why on earth she was made tainaiste

K-9

I thought this was going to be the usual Public Sector thread.

It is, but with less facts and stuff.

Grudaire

K-9 wrote: »

I thought this was going to be the usual Public Sector thread.

It is, but with less facts and stuff.

And less grammer! :pac:

Ah Leitrim lad is mouthing on and on about how it's all their fault, has yet to back any of his figures up - despite being asked...

miju

leitrim lad wrote: »

there is a way out, and it should have been done last week, no matter who is offended cut the public sector spend by 2/3, lay off 66%of workers (who probably areant required anyway) and make socail payments equal to the uk , that should easily save 20billion.

Oh I can just imagine the country with 66% less Gardai , Fire services, health services and teachers. not to mention of course the extra 250,000 odd extra added to the dole ques overnight. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

leitrim lad

a wonderful country that would be saved from bankrupcy

miju wrote: »

Oh I can just imagine the country with 66% less Gardai , Fire services, health services and teachers. not to mention of course the extra 250,000 odd extra added to the dole ques overnight. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

and the garda ombudsman would get a well deserved break then wouldnt they, from all the corruption in the force

and i think they country would run one hell of a lot smoother wothout all them 250,000 leeches dont you

NewDubliner

leitrim lad wrote: »

a wonderful country that would be saved from bankrupcy....and i think they country would run one hell of a lot smoother wothout all them 250,000 leeches dont you

Can you show us a country where this worked?

Firetrap

Ah, so when they're all on the dole they won't be leeches? I see.

RiverWilde

Considering that FF have not grasped the nettle of their own pay (TD's salaries are way above what they should) I doubt that the civil service will have to tighten their belts anytime soon.

Sure, they'll hammer the lower level civil servants but the higher ups who have been there for donkeys years will remain unscathed.

Riv

NewDubliner

Firetrap wrote: »

Ah, so when they're all on the dole they won't be leeches? I see.

He wants everyone fired & no dole. And if not, he wants civil servants to be exempt from tax.

leitrim lad

canada, sweden and korea all have smaller public sectors than ireland and their population is huge compared to ours, so the door is open

and i would only be glad to close it behind ye,

BroomBurner

NewDubliner wrote: »

He wants everyone fired & no dole. And if not, he wants civil servants to be exempt from society

FYP

There is a LOT of begrudgery going on in here! What happened to threads with proper discussions, including the requirement for facts to back up statements?


Hahaha just had to edit to include a ref to Leitrim Lad's last post. Would that be North Korea or South, LL?

NewDubliner

leitrim lad wrote: »

canada, sweden and korea all have smaller public sectors than ireland and their population is huge compared to ours, so the door is open ,

You're suddenly very learned for someone with such bad punctiation & a persona of being a rural building contractor. It's amazing how the current crisis has made us all pay attention to economic matters.

Have you got facts to back up your statements? It would be nice to know if you are comparing like with like.

Did they achieve what you claim by firing all their public servants with no compensation and no dole? (This being your proposal.)

coolinblue

i work in the public sector... to be fair i think its extremely unfair to put an umbrella over all job categories in the public sector and brand them as 1.. i believe that there is certain types of work within public sector eg gardai, where your wages are hard earned, and i dont believe that a person should say this isnt so, because believe me it is. i love my job but as many others in my role would agree, we have a lot of sh1t to deal with daily.. secondly i do believe that there are positions that really arent required, like typists in the civil service etc.. and finally can i just say that ppl on a whole believe that gardai get serious overtime, WE DONT! we have to change our shifts now to suit court dates because we cant claim o/t and this has a massive effect on our shift allowances as we may lose night duty, we are most certainly grateful for our secure jobs howeve bare in mind if i wanted to leave school early in the boom and become an electrician i could have but i didnt like my colleagues, and i feel we are being punished for that.. thanks.

leitrim lad

well coolin blue i have nothing against you but after what the gaurds did to me last year,

and i said it before and i will say it again they deserve everything thats coming to them,

i run a sucessful business ,and a new guard with the usual chip on the shoulder left my arm in such a state that i had to get steel screwed into it, to hold all the bones together that he broke,

and im not a criminal, i dont drink, i raerely smoke a cigarette , and i despise drugs, but im most certanily not giving my hard earned money to the 2 brians every year, for them to send a cheeky little pr1ck to my village and destroy my arm , because he had an anger managment problem.

so from that you will grasp my opinion of the gardai and their usless, corrupt money wasting force, but thank god they are now being governed by the ombudsman

Grudaire

leitrim lad wrote: »

well coolin blue i have nothing against you but after what the gaurds did to me last year,

and i said it before and i will say it again they deserve everything thats coming to them,

i run a sucessful business ,and a new guard with the usual chip on the shoulder left my arm in such a state that i had to get steel screwed into it, to hold all the bones together that he broke,

and im not a criminal, i dont drink, i raerely smoke a cigarette , and i despise drugs, but im most certanily not giving my hard earned money to the 2 brians every year, for them to send a cheeky little pr1ck to my village and destroy my arm , because he had an anger managment problem.

so from that you will grasp my opinion of the gardai and their usless, corrupt money wasting force, but thank god they are now being governed by the ombudsman

haha - please please back this one up

(As they say in AH pics or GTFO)

leitrim lad

what do you want

witness statments ,or the ombudsman statments, i will post them when the case is closed, and dont worry i wont let this one lie down.

and you wonder why im so bitter towards the public sector , well thats one good reason

the reason the gobsh1tes are trained in templemore is to protect the citizens of the state not attack them,

greatest waste of public money yet, chippen them gubbans shoulders

newname

and you wonder why im so bitter towards the public sector

Leitrim lad... i'm sure public sector nurses, doctors and radiologists helped with your arm when you turned up at the hospital.

Try not to label all public sector workers as the same. Some are good, some are bad, some lazy and some very hard working.

gazzer

leitrim lad wrote: »

well coolin blue i have nothing against you but after what the gaurds did to me last year,

and i said it before and i will say it again they deserve everything thats coming to them,

i run a sucessful business ,and a new guard with the usual chip on the shoulder left my arm in such a state that i had to get steel screwed into it, to hold all the bones together that he broke,

and im not a criminal, i dont drink, i raerely smoke a cigarette , and i despise drugs, but im most certanily not giving my hard earned money to the 2 brians every year, for them to send a cheeky little pr1ck to my village and destroy my arm , because he had an anger managment problem.

so from that you will grasp my opinion of the gardai and their usless, corrupt money wasting force, but thank god they are now being governed by the ombudsman

So the gardai are a useless corrupt money wasting force based on this one guard who came to your village? I presume you went to the hospital to get the steel screwed into your shoulder? Are the nurses and doctors who fixed you on your public sector shortlist as well?

I was shortchanged in Tesco once. Are all Tesco stores out to get me? Can you tell me how it will work when all these Public Sector staff are fired and get statutory redundancy payments? Or all PS workers a lesser human and deserve no Redundancy payments. Where are your costings for how much the government will save if they fire all these PS and how much social welfare payments will cost?

SC024

Leitrim Lad, at the beginning opf this post you had some very interesting ideas, but your comments have gone way way south, you should have left while you were winning...

leitrim lad

well as you should be aware newname im not against them all just the dossers,leeches and trouble makers

i actually think that CAB is a very interesting operation ,and i support it, i also back the revenue they are very efficent, as are the nurses who have to put up with the drunks in a&e every night, im not all bad, but i cant stand the time wasters, with the attitude, they think that the likes of me owes them something

Climate Expert

leitrim lad wrote: »

well as you should be aware newname im not against them all just the dossers,leeches and trouble makers

i actually think that CAB is a very interesting operation ,and i support it, i also back the revenue they are very efficent, as are the nurses who have to put up with the drunks in a&e every night, im not all bad, but i cant stand the time wasters, with the attitude, they think that the likes of me owes them something

Open your eyes you clown, you had a bad experience with one guy. I won't doubt your story but that is not representative of a whole organisation or indeed the whole public sector.

Who is the blame for the inflated public sector wages? All of you are.

Everybody who contributed to this housing boom is to blame. Public sector wages were increased to make housing affordable for its workers.

Grudaire

I'm expecting something like this (to blatantly put words in your mouth)

leitrim lad wrote: »

Cliste wrote:

leitrim lad wrote: »

what do you want

The truth!

You can't handle the TRUTH

:pac:


I would like to see you Back up one of your many many many statements.

Give me the evidence behind your figures, and don't go mouthing off about the Gardai - hell you've probably never been in contact with one, and are just spouting bull over the web.

rugbyman

Cliste wrote: »

It is 100% at least - however stuff is more expensive here (either way I agree with this)

However please explain to me where we can cut the 66% of jobs?

le meas,

Cliste

Hello Cliste,
I support Leitrim lads suggestions. He is somewhat to the right of Attila the Hun, and his shotgun approach riles some,but that does not make his suggestions wrong.

i am always amazed that people read into a post something that is not there. I dont think anybody on Earth thinks all state employees are useless,sudoku doing,tea drinkers.

You asked how 2/3 of state employees .
could be done without?

Aerlingus used have 6,000 employees. 2,000 were dispensed with and things still run.(they actually run more flights now) there are 1,000 more to go

Eircom used have an enormous number of employees,who were paid off with enormous amounts. I dont know the figures but lets say there are now 1/3 of the former number

I think I read last year that the ESB have several t5housand more people than they need.

Today I read that there are 175 teachers costing 11 million p.a. who cannot be deployed to where they are needed.

I know some people in the Health service ,who tell me that sick leave is abused beyond belief. The press stories suggest that moves are afoot to retire 3,000 clerical staff.

I have been a self employed person all my life. In most cases where my work touched with state employees I saw considerable waste.


Looking at these points ,Ithink it is not unreasonable to suggest that many parts of the public servicemake could do with 1/3 of their numbers.

When Leitrim Lad talks of contracting out jobs, he is right. firstly many govt. depts are doing this for quite a while. the govt then does not have to pay for sick leave or MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY , PENSIONS.

Various posters have queried L.Lads contention that state employees do not pay taxes. in effect ,they do not. their bottom line on teir pay slips are ,in effect ,the net cost ,to us,the nationm, of their employment.


to be realistic, Leitrim lad , sacking 2/3, and handing out p45 s and saying "there is no redundancy " is not a runner, as you have suggested, but it is the solution.

I am not up to date with exact figures, but I think that teachers earn 400 per week more than nurses. if so, this is wrong. I think that Gardai earn a lot more than teachers . if so this is wrong.

On the point you agreed with ,Cliste,

OAP,couple, R.O.I. 430 euro per week N.I. £.160. at exchange rate pertaining up to last year £160 equalled 200 euro.

So we pay our oaps 230 euro more than leitrim lads next door neighboure in N.I.

Single person on dole, we pay 204, in N.I. approx 70 pounds

(cost of living a bit less, I accept)

Regards ,Rugbyman

Grudaire

Someone that I can deal with! Thanks rugbyman!

Right, now that we have some sense being talked I will grant to you that some jobs can be cut in the civil service. However I think that the levels of cutting that have been mentioned by yourself and LL are mad. Twofold - one it's unworkable, and secondly it'll move how many people straight to the Dole - which is a bigger drag on the state, and will decrease tax income (talking VAT etc)

Now - I also have to question where all the workers who would be done away with would come from. There are sections that I would deem understaffed (schools - particularly those which need special laguage teachers due to the high levels of immegration)

The arguement that they don't pay taxes is a bit mad - I mean how else could they possibly pay tax? I know in effect it's a zero sum game - but even when the governments subcontracts the same thing happens, just via the subcontractors. I don't see how they could start paying taxes any more then they do??

Subcontracting CAN be a good way to go. However it's not always the best way to go - and I remain to even see a arguement that it is. I have mentioned the toll bridges as an example of where public/private partnerships don't work out well.

Finally Leitrim lad hasn't got a shotgun approach - more a mis-firing paintball gun approach.

rugbyman

Cliste,
There is a widening gulf between the self employed and state employees. It will become nastier. Those who have a gaurantee of employment CANNOT fathom how the other side have no such security( their heads cannot tune in to this situation,as they live in the cocoon). they may know friends and relatives who have been laid off, but thats it..

this dreadful crisis ,will end ,and we will be leaner and fitter. We will have gaine d from it.. those who are state employed will be much fewer in number.It will take years of low/no increases in welfare to even out that situation.

re your comment on need for teachers for migrants, thats yet another question.

Regards,rugbyman

Grudaire

rugbyman wrote: »

There is a widening gulf between the self employed and state employees. It will become nastier. Those who have a gaurantee of employment CANNOT fathom how the other side have no such security( their heads cannot tune in to this situation,as they live in the cocoon). they may know friends and relatives who have been laid off, but thats it..

this dreadful crisis ,will end ,and we will be leaner and fitter. We will have gaine d from it.. those who are state employed will be much fewer in number.It will take years of low/no increases in welfare to even out that situation.

re your comment on need for teachers for migrants, thats yet another question.

Regards,rugbyman

For the record I am NOT a public servent, don't get me wrong I'm just questioning some of the Bull that has been posted. Sheesh I thought private sector employees were more on the ball then that (I don't think that this is the first time I've said this)

You see you ignored my questions, and attempted to put me on the back foot - I don't like that - but since it didn't work I'll say it again - I want to see some backing up of what has been said.