Will the government ever grasp the nettle of public sector pay ?

Hashbrown

leitrim lad wrote: »

well coolin blue i have nothing against you but after what the gaurds did to me last year,

and i said it before and i will say it again they deserve everything thats coming to them,

i run a sucessful business ,and a new guard with the usual chip on the shoulder left my arm in such a state that i had to get steel screwed into it, to hold all the bones together that he broke,

and im not a criminal, i dont drink, i raerely smoke a cigarette , and i despise drugs, but im most certanily not giving my hard earned money to the 2 brians every year, for them to send a cheeky little pr1ck to my village and destroy my arm , because he had an anger managment problem.

so from that you will grasp my opinion of the gardai and their usless, corrupt money wasting force, but thank god they are now being governed by the ombudsman

leitrim lad wrote: »

johnsons , lovely creamy pint of guinness, one swallow, mmmmmmm

So how do you know what the pints are like in newbridge?

old boy

rugbyman wrote: »

Hello Cliste,
I support Leitrim lads suggestions. He is somewhat to the right of Attila the Hun, and his shotgun approach riles some,but that does not make his suggestions wrong.

i am always amazed that people read into a post something that is not there. I dont think anybody on Earth thinks all state employees are useless,sudoku doing,tea drinkers.

You asked how 2/3 of state employees .
could be done without?

Aerlingus used have 6,000 employees. 2,000 were dispensed with and things still run.(they actually run more flights now) there are 1,000 more to go

Eircom used have an enormous number of employees,who were paid off with enormous amounts. I dont know the figures but lets say there are now 1/3 of the former number

I think I read last year that the ESB have several t5housand more people than they need.

Today I read that there are 175 teachers costing 11 million p.a. who cannot be deployed to where they are needed.

I know some people in the Health service ,who tell me that sick leave is abused beyond belief. The press stories suggest that moves are afoot to retire 3,000 clerical staff.

I have been a self employed person all my life. In most cases where my work touched with state employees I saw considerable waste.


Looking at these points ,Ithink it is not unreasonable to suggest that many parts of the public servicemake could do with 1/3 of their numbers.

When Leitrim Lad talks of contracting out jobs, he is right. firstly many govt. depts are doing this for quite a while. the govt then does not have to pay for sick leave or MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY , PENSIONS.

Various posters have queried L.Lads contention that state employees do not pay taxes. in effect ,they do not. their bottom line on teir pay slips are ,in effect ,the net cost ,to us,the nationm, of their employment.


to be realistic, Leitrim lad , sacking 2/3, and handing out p45 s and saying "there is no redundancy " is not a runner, as you have suggested, but it is the solution.

I am not up to date with exact figures, but I think that teachers earn 400 per week more than nurses. if so, this is wrong. I think that Gardai earn a lot more than teachers . if so this is wrong.

On the point you agreed with ,Cliste,

OAP,couple, R.O.I. 430 euro per week N.I. £.160. at exchange rate pertaining up to last year £160 equalled 200 euro.

So we pay our oaps 230 euro more than leitrim lads next door neighboure in N.I.

Single person on dole, we pay 204, in N.I. approx 70 pounds

(cost of living a bit less, I accept)

Regards ,Rugbyman

rugby man wait until you have to live on an o.a.p. then come back and complaim.

K-9

leitrim lad wrote: »

well coolin blue i have nothing against you but after what the gaurds did to me last year,

and i said it before and i will say it again they deserve everything thats coming to them,

i run a sucessful business ,and a new guard with the usual chip on the shoulder left my arm in such a state that i had to get steel screwed into it, to hold all the bones together that he broke,

and im not a criminal, i dont drink, i raerely smoke a cigarette , and i despise drugs, but im most certanily not giving my hard earned money to the 2 brians every year, for them to send a cheeky little pr1ck to my village and destroy my arm , because he had an anger managment problem.

so from that you will grasp my opinion of the gardai and their usless, corrupt money wasting force, but thank god they are now being governed by the ombudsman

Now I get you, you had a bad experience with a Guard so they are all the same.

Look, I would contribute consistently on these type of threads and would have your general opinion. (Not 2/3'rds) I try and use facts and data and link to them. Though people may disagree with me (fecking democracy) I have some information to back it back. (though it maybe my interpretation of said facts)

This really seems like a soapbox and when asked for data, (it isn't that hard, there's a whole internet thingey at your fingertips) you come up with "Some Guard said to me"? I mean, WTF?

Hillel

coolinblue wrote: »

i work in the public sector... to be fair i think its extremely unfair to put an umbrella over all job categories in the public sector and brand them as 1.. i believe that there is certain types of work within public sector eg gardai, where your wages are hard earned, and i dont believe that a person should say this isnt so, because believe me it is. i love my job but as many others in my role would agree, we have a lot of sh1t to deal with daily.. secondly i do believe that there are positions that really arent required, like typists in the civil service etc.. and finally can i just say that ppl on a whole believe that gardai get serious overtime, WE DONT! we have to change our shifts now to suit court dates because we cant claim o/t and this has a massive effect on our shift allowances as we may lose night duty, we are most certainly grateful for our secure jobs howeve bare in mind if i wanted to leave school early in the boom and become an electrician i could have but i didnt like my colleagues, and i feel we are being punished for that.. thanks.

Coolinblue,
No fair-minded person would suggest everyone in the public service is lazy or that no one does a hard, or indeed difficult, days work. There are many public servants, in many different roles, who make a substantial contribution to society. I also unreservedly accept, that being a Guard can be difficult, dangerous and, considering the risk involved, not particularly well paid. Good luck with your career and I hope it goes well for you.

Fluffybums

I don't think Cowen et.al. will grasp the nettle and deal with the numbers employed in the public sector and the pay levels mainly because turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
In my opinion they should start with the numbers of TDs and their salaries. Compared to many countries we are over represented, using the UK as an example a population of about 56 million is represented by 646 MPs (1.2 MPs per 100,000) whereas in Ireland approx. 4.4 million are represented by 166 TDs (3.8 per 100,000). On the salaries the average TD gets 101,191 Euros, the average MP in the UK gets 64,766 pounds (71,966 euros) both get expenses. As an aside try and find the official info about TD salaries and expenses using a Yahoo/Google search and compare that with the same search for MPs, the later is a couple of clicks and all nicely tabulated the former - I'm still looking.....
Having cut the number of TDs and their salaries, the next for review should be the senior civil servants, if the TDs salaries were raised because of the pay levels in the senior civil services we have to assume they are over paid and in excess. The process should then carry on down through the levels. By the time you get to the frontline staff the savings would be so great that hospital beds would not need to be shut, new schools could be built (by the state for a change) and services improved.
As for the numbers on the dole increasing, if those let go from the public sector had any skills this would not be a problem - even in a recession there are jobs for suitably qualified people, you may have to move but there will be work. The pain would be worth it for the well being and future of the country as the savings would continue into the up turn when it comes.

K-9

Fluffybums wrote: »

I don't think Cowen et.al. will grasp the nettle and deal with the numbers employed in the public sector and the pay levels mainly because turkeys don't vote for Christmas.
In my opinion they should start with the numbers of TDs and their salaries. Compared to many countries we are over represented, using the UK as an example a population of about 56 million is represented by 646 MPs (1.2 MPs per 100,000) whereas in Ireland approx. 4.4 million are represented by 166 TDs (3.8 per 100,000). On the salaries the average TD gets 101,191 Euros, the average MP in the UK gets 64,766 pounds (71,966 euros) both get expenses. As an aside try and find the official info about TD salaries and expenses using a Yahoo/Google search and compare that with the same search for MPs, the later is a couple of clicks and all nicely tabulated the former - I'm still looking.....
Having cut the number of TDs and their salaries, the next for review should be the senior civil servants, if the TDs salaries were raised because of the pay levels in the senior civil services we have to assume they are over paid and in excess. The process should then carry on down through the levels. By the time you get to the frontline staff the savings would be so great that hospital beds would not need to be shut, new schools could be built (by the state for a change) and services improved.
As for the numbers on the dole increasing, if those let go from the public sector had any skills this would not be a problem - even in a recession there are jobs for suitably qualified people, you may have to move but there will be work. The pain would be worth it for the well being and future of the country as the savings would continue into the up turn when it comes.

They have agreed to a report to benchmark against countries with similar populations.

YEP, another report :rolleyes:, but voice your dissatisfaction then if they don't follow up.

Fluffybums

K-9 wrote: »

They have agreed to a report to benchmark against countries with similar populations.

YEP, another report :rolleyes:, but voice your dissatisfaction then if they don't follow up.

Will believe it when I see it. Suspect it could take several years for them to come up with an answer, but I hope to be surprised.

Hillel

Fluffybums wrote: »

Will believe it when I see it. Suspect it could take several years for them to come up with an answer, but I hope to be surprised.

+1

NewDubliner

rugbyman wrote: »

When Leitrim Lad talks of contracting out jobs, he is right. firstly many govt. depts are doing this for quite a while. the govt then does not have to pay for sick leave or MUCH MORE IMPORTANTLY , PENSIONS.

How are the pensions of the contractors funded?

ixoy

NewDubliner wrote: »

How are the pensions of the contractors funded?

Obviously funded as part of the contracting rate (I'm assuming that's where you're going). The important bit though is that's it's not a career-long commitment to the pension (and the pensions in turn wouldn't be so generous).

Contractors can be let go far more easily, although I'd strongly question if some of their work can be taken up by government employees. It's something the government should have prepared for but, in their infinite wisdom, have not.

dresden8

ixoy wrote: »

Obviously funded as part of the contracting rate (I'm assuming that's where you're going). The important bit though is that's it's not a career-long commitment to the pension (and the pensions in turn wouldn't be so generous).

Contractors can be let go far more easily, although I'd strongly question if some of their work can be taken up by government employees. It's something the government should have prepared for but, in their infinite wisdom, have not.

PPARS? Contractors.

NewDubliner

ixoy wrote: »

Obviously funded as part of the contracting rate (I'm assuming that's where you're going). The important bit though is that's it's not a career-long commitment to the pension (and the pensions in turn wouldn't be so generous).

I suppose we could save money by outsourcing to countries where people don't get pensions?

ixoy

dresden8 wrote: »

PPARS? Contractors.

Yep - not all projects are good and I'd imagine there's a bit to blame on both sides there.

However, some are and the necessary technical skills for large IT projects aren't often within the CS/PS domain which is something the government could have tackled. In that absence there's contractors who will cost more on a day-to-day basis but long term not so, as there's the flexibility to remove them once the project is complete.

NewDubliner

ixoy wrote: »

In that absence there's contractors who will cost more on a day-to-day basis but long term not so, as there's the flexibility to remove them once the project is complete.

You're not familiar with the wiles of IT consultants. They'll lock you in to proprietary technical architectures and methodologies so that you can never get rid of them.

Without IT skills within the public service, there's no way to manage the consultants & anyone that's any good at that is heading for the door thanks to skill homogenisation (via PMDS), taxes and levies (60%) & no certainty about career or pension.

This is what happened in the UK & their IT costs ballooned and they've had some major, costly failures.

The 'privitisation' agenda is not about saving money for the taxpayer.

But, hey, let's outsource to India and China & at least we'll have less expensive failures.

ixoy

NewDubliner wrote: »

You're not familiar with the wiles of IT consultants. They'll lock you in to proprietary technical architectures and methodologies so that you can never get rid of them.

I can't speak for all, but it's not always the case. Some of this is due to contractual obligations but others is due to using open source methodologies and best practices, some of which is mandated by the PS/CS.

Without IT skills within the public service, there's no way to manage the consultants & anyone that's any good at that is heading for the door thanks to skill homogenisation (via PMDS), taxes and levies (60%) & no certainty about career or pension.

No certainty about career or pension in the PS/CS?? There's far more certainty there than in the IT contracting world (or IT as a whole).

I'll agree on the PMDS thing (not the taxes or levies - we all pay taxes!) as it's so broad that it fails to recognise or reward IT technical skills. Blame that one on the unions - how are you going to encourage someone with an IT degree if they'll be at the same level as someone with an Arts degree yet both doing IT work? That should have been looked at pro-actively in the "good times".

leitrim lad

i have had a drink 2 times in the last 7 years , and was lucky enough to get a good pint in johnsons in newbridge.

ok the story in my opinion is , we need to cull the public service by 2/3 and it can be done with no regret at a cost of €5400,000,000, which is affordable in the long term, that includes redundancies and pensions, and is not negociable, unless down.

then i think that this new agency which is taking over the mistakes that the scum (bankers) made, will spend about €30,000,000,000 buying all of this agri land, back, and the money should be given to the banks over a period of time like 10 years , not in one go because them ungreatful [EMAIL="bast@rds"]bast@rds[/EMAIL] will have no thanks for it anyway,

however this agency will take full possession of the land now, which it will sell in small amounts ,as large amounts will flood the market leaving it worthless, and going by my calculations the state stands to make a profit of €80,000,000,000 totalling a gross amount in sales of €110,000,000,000

this would clear the national debt and leave the country with a pension fund of around €60,000,000,000, we would be one of the wealthiest countries in the eu per head of population, with a safe banking system , an efficent public sector and ready to take the next boom or recession full on ,

but i must stress that the profits made in that agency should be seperate from the countries tax take every year ,and should not be squandered, it should be saved to one side and used as collateral, this would also drastically improve the countries credit rating, back to aaa

Dr Galen

leitrim lad wrote: »

i have had a drink 2 times in the last 7 years , and was lucky enough to get a good pint in johnsons in newbridge.

ok the story in my opinion is , we need to cull the public service by 2/3 and it can be done with no regret at a cost of €5400,000,000, which is affordable in the long term, that includes redundancies and pensions, and is not negociable, unless down.

then i think that this new agency which is taking over the mistakes that the scum (bankers) made, will spend about €30,000,000,000 buying all of this agri land, back, and the money should be given to the banks over a period of time like 10 years , not in one go because them ungreatful [EMAIL="bast@rds"]bast@rds[/EMAIL] will have no thanks for it anyway,

however this agency will take full possession of the land now, which it will sell in small amounts ,as large amounts will flood the market leaving it worthless, and going by my calculations the state stands to make a profit of €80,000,000,000 totalling a gross amount in sales of €110,000,000,000

this would clear the national debt and leave the country with a pension fund of around €60,000,000,000, we would be one of the wealthiest countries in the eu per head of population, with a safe banking system , an efficent public sector and ready to take the next boom or recession full on ,

but i must stress that the profits made in that agency should be seperate from the countries tax take every year ,and should not be squandered, it should be saved to one side and used as collateral, this would also drastically improve the countries credit rating, back to aaa

just like in the Leaving Cert, could you show your working out please?

what calculations are you doing that you come to a total profit of 80 billion?

K-9

leitrim lad wrote: »

i have had a drink 2 times in the last 7 years , and was lucky enough to get a good pint in johnsons in newbridge.

ok the story in my opinion is , we need to cull the public service by 2/3 and it can be done with no regret at a cost of €5400,000,000, which is affordable in the long term, that includes redundancies and pensions, and is not negociable, unless down.

then i think that this new agency which is taking over the mistakes that the scum (bankers) made, will spend about €30,000,000,000 buying all of this agri land, back, and the money should be given to the banks over a period of time like 10 years , not in one go because them ungreatful bast@rds will have no thanks for it anyway,

however this agency will take full possession of the land now, which it will sell in small amounts ,as large amounts will flood the market leaving it worthless, and going by my calculations the state stands to make a profit of €80,000,000,000 totalling a gross amount in sales of €110,000,000,000

this would clear the national debt and leave the country with a pension fund of around €60,000,000,000, we would be one of the wealthiest countries in the eu per head of population, with a safe banking system , an efficent public sector and ready to take the next boom or recession full on ,

but i must stress that the profits made in that agency should be seperate from the countries tax take every year ,and should not be squandered, it should be saved to one side and used as collateral, this would also drastically improve the countries credit rating, back to aaa

You still haven't answered who the 2/3rds will be.

Will it be the McCain "hatchet" approach or Obamas "scalpel" one?

leitrim lad

who ever has an unessecary post in the public sector ,so in that 2/3 of them ,thats how many of them was brought in over the last 10 years in good times

well im sorry ladies and gentlemen the good times are over ,close the door on your way out your service is no longer required.

if i were to go into detail on the figures it would take over the whole website, but they are based on trends over the last 3 centuries , of the rise and fall of global production, and i expect it to peek again between 2016-2019 with another recession to start in 2020 lasting until 2024.

and going by that it will be a recession based on energy, when by then another lucrative source will be invented to replace electricity

but if my plan and the governments plan works we will be a wealthy nation by then ready to sit out the next recession

grahamo

leitrim lad wrote: »

who ever has an unessecary post in the public sector ,so in that 2/3 of them ,thats how many of them was brought in over the last 10 years in good times

well im sorry ladies and gentlemen the good times are over ,close the door on your way out your service is no longer required.

if i were to go into detail on the figures it would take over the whole website, but they are based on trends over the last 3 centuries , of the rise and fall of global production, and i expect it to peek again between 2016-2019 with another recession to start in 2020 lasting until 2024.

and going by that it will be a recession based on energy, when by then another lucrative source will be invented to replace electricity

but if my plan and the governments plan works we will be a wealthy nation by then ready to sit out the next recession

WTF? Now I know its a wind up!!!
You can predict bust and booms of economies and you and predict when we will no longer need ELECTRICITY??????
WHEN in the next 10,000 years can you see the human race not needing ELECTRICITY?
I'm thinking what you meant was maybe producing electricity in the future by means of nuclear fission rather than by the burning of fossil fuels.
I particularly liked the bit of your quote I coloured red. It makes you sound like Dr. Evil

Hillel

ixoy wrote: »

Yep - not all projects are good and I'd imagine there's a bit to blame on both sides there.

I agree with you. Having said that, without strong business analysis skills in-house I'd say that the probability of failure is greater. My rationale is that, good, experienced in-house analysts will already have an understanding of the business before they start. They are then in a much stronger position to help the business write appropriate business requirements. Consultants/outsourcers have to start from scratch which is far more difficult.

ixoy wrote: »

However, some are and the necessary technical skills for large IT projects aren't often within the CS/PS domain which is something the government could have tackled.

I'm not so sure that it could/should be tackled. One of the advantages of consultants is that they should have a range of experience that its simply not possible to get in a single environment. This is especially true at principal architect/software designer level. Very few companies/government departments would have the pipeline of work to keep an in-house expert busy. In all likilihood they would spend much of their time doing less skilled work. I do agree that, regardless of the approach taken, that some (strong) in-house IT expertise is essential for best results.

K-9

leitrim lad wrote: »

who ever has an unessecary post in the public sector ,so in that 2/3 of them ,thats how many of them was brought in over the last 10 years in good times

Wait a sec, the Public Sector tripled in the last 10 years?

maxwell smart

This is a great thread.
Leitrim Lad, while I slightly agree with the basic tenent of your proposal i.e. cut the public service, as all their wages are funded by tax from the private sector, putting them on the dole would only mean the government paying them less then at present.
However, just a couple of questions for you, you say you have a business empire which is incorporating a couple of companies each week, yet you have to turn away people every day looking for work and you can't get any of your own money out of the bank, does not compute.
Also, while I agree there are some right dicks in the Garda, its only a small minority. I know people who have had run ins with the Gardai and sure some of them were vindictive, but thats the way in every walk of life.
As an idea for public sctor redundancies, lots of people I know in the private sector who have been made redundant only got the statutory minimum of 2 weeks per year of service (plus a week). Why not put that one to the unions? After all, if public sector pay has been benchmarked to the private sector, then the pain should also be linked.
Now I know there are plenty of people in the public sector who do a great job so I'm not suggesting they get the bullet.:)

leitrim lad

my figure of 5400 000 000 covered that 2 plus 1 additional week, including dole for 2 years at a cost of €200 pw each or 10k each per year

im turning away more people,per day than i can count ,the group is on holiday this week ,and the phone is still ringing people looking for the start ,

and i wouldnt be putting it to any union, the union has no say whatsoever in ther running of the country or its finances, they would bet that in a cheqe or dd each and their p45 ,

i would wipe out entire sections and nearly all quangoes, and an taisce

Dr Galen

leitrim lad wrote: »

my figure of 5400 000 000 covered that 2 plus 1 additional week, including dole for 2 years at a cost of €200 pw each or 10k each per year

im turning away more people,per day than i can count ,the group is on holiday this week ,and the phone is still ringing people looking for the start ,

and i wouldnt be putting it to any union, the union has no say whatsoever in ther running of the country or its finances, they would bet that in a cheqe or dd each and their p45 ,

i would wipe out entire sections and nearly all quangoes, and an taisce

so what would you wipe out specifically? and why pick on An Taisce?

Dr Galen

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

just like in the Leaving Cert, could you show your working out please?

what calculations are you doing that you come to a total profit of 80 billion?

oh and you still haven't answered this yet?

irish_bob

leitrim lad wrote: »

my figure of 5400 000 000 covered that 2 plus 1 additional week, including dole for 2 years at a cost of €200 pw each or 10k each per year

im turning away more people,per day than i can count ,the group is on holiday this week ,and the phone is still ringing people looking for the start ,

and i wouldnt be putting it to any union, the union has no say whatsoever in ther running of the country or its finances, they would bet that in a cheqe or dd each and their p45 ,

i would wipe out entire sections and nearly all quangoes, and an taisce

as ive said before leitrim lad , i like your style in many ways and you sound like a DO,ER in the real world but what i dont get is how you reconcile your disdain for public sector over population with your steadfast support for the people that were most responsible for public sector over population

FIANNA FAIL and its arch vote buyer bertie aherne

grahamo

maxwell smart wrote: »

This is a great thread.
Leitrim Lad, while I slightly agree with the basic tenent of your proposal i.e. cut the public service, as all their wages are funded by tax from the private sector, putting them on the dole would only mean the government paying them less then at present.
However, just a couple of questions for you, you say you have a business empire which is incorporating a couple of companies each week, yet you have to turn away people every day looking for work and you can't get any of your own money out of the bank, does not compute.
Also, while I agree there are some right dicks in the Garda, its only a small minority. I know people who have had run ins with the Gardai and sure some of them were vindictive, but thats the way in every walk of life.
As an idea for public sctor redundancies, lots of people I know in the private sector who have been made redundant only got the statutory minimum of 2 weeks per year of service (plus a week). Why not put that one to the unions? After all, if public sector pay has been benchmarked to the private sector, then the pain should also be linked.
Now I know there are plenty of people in the public sector who do a great job so I'm not suggesting they get the bullet.:)

Wrong! Not all the public sector is paid for by the taxpayer. Semi state bodies are commercially run, and their pension funds are privately funded , receiving NOTHING from the government or taxpayer. I think a lot of the begrudgers (mainly self employed who have been totally ripping us off for the last 15 years) need to get their facts straight.:)
I'm not civil service though I am public sector and I can tell you I earn a lot more for my employer than they pay me.

leitrim lad

yes i see your point but bertie gave us all a good foundation ,

he did want votes and got them, but remember you do not need 1/10 people to work in such a sector,

1/50 would be plenty

BroomBurner

Leitrim Lad, are you known as

Ballboy

in another life? :P

You've certianly entertained me anyway!