Will the government ever grasp the nettle of public sector pay ?

Cuchulain

OMFG not another post here whinging about the public sector pay. The average wage for public sector is 50k, generally for highly qualified professionals.

I pay €130 a week into my pension, how many of the non public service pay that much here?

If its such a cushy number then how come the whingers and green eyed monsters here didnt jump into a free public sector job when we were recruiting?

I'll tell you why, the majority were lapping up the benefits from the Celtic Tiger and couldn't be arsed applying for the lower paid public sector jobs.......or simply you weren't highly qualified enough :cool:

dustbabe

leitrim lad wrote: »

yes but my point is public sector workers, dont contribute in any way to the public finances, they do the opposite

WEll jesus leitrim lad u are a credit to those who taught you for sure, they did a good job., maybe they should have been sacked for the crap job they made of you.
REad the oecd report and you will see that we are not overstaffed with public sector workers, we are short but i will certainly agree that we need less admin staff. i am a nurse, the reason we have 450 a day on trollies is cos we have not enought nurses and beds, or doctors. if you got multiple sclerosis you would wait a year to see a doctor! but seeing as you are a rich private sector worker, you have insurance and you queue jump over the mere public patients to get seen.
And pay me 25 grand a year, with my experience alone.... your problem here was we paid people many times a nrusing salary to build houses badly!
And then hte lazy irish would not work, and everyone wanted the new house furnished to the last, 2 new cars outside it, and drinking cocktails, holidays galore, and yoiu ask how we got here?
All the money lent on tick to the builders etc is why we are here! not due to the public service bill. i am not paid like the nurses in the states, unlike mr cowen.
So go and get a bit of education leitrim lad, just read Mave ann wrens book on health, called how ireland cares.
I am studying at the moment to try to fix this mess, am paying for college and my study time is all of my own, so you can bugger off if you think you can tar us all with the same brush.

P. Breathnach

dresden8 wrote: »

Another aside on quangoes.

They are not the public service. They do not conform to public sector recruitment guidelines and procedures.

They are political appointees who get paid to take the grief for politicians.

In short they are FF hacks paid to take the fall for FF ministers.

They are not the public service.

Let's be a bit more careful about what's what.

Most of those directing quangoes are appointed by Ministers. They are usually part-time, serving on boards or committees of management. In many quangoes, the full-time staff are public service employees, appointed on a similar (or identical) basis to the rest of the public sector.

gurramok

NewDubliner wrote:

I thought this was being borrowed for the infrastructural projects and to pay dole money?

Money is borrowed on everything to balance the books and spent on everything.

If it was not, we wouldn't have this thread as the public sector could be afforded.

Cuchulain wrote: »

OMFG not another post here whinging about the public sector pay. The average wage for public sector is 50k, generally for highly qualified professionals.

How did you make that one out? Are half the public sector 'highly qualified professionals'?!

Cuchulain wrote: »

I pay €130 a week into my pension, how many of the non public service pay that much here?

Yes, because you can afford it. We cannot as we are not paid as much(avg wage from about 33k-40k in private sector depending who you believe from CSO)

Cuchulain wrote: »

If its such a cushy number then how come the whingers and green eyed monsters here didnt jump into a free public sector job when we were recruiting?

There are not 2million plus public sector jobs.

Cuchulain wrote: »

I'll tell you why, the majority were lapping up the benefits from the Celtic Tiger and couldn't be arsed applying for the lower paid public sector jobs.......or simply you were highly qualified enough :cool:

Nice one, that will win you alot of sympathy.:mad:

dresden8

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Let's be a bit more careful about what's what.

Most of those directing quangoes are appointed by Ministers. They are usually part-time, serving on boards or committees of management. In many quangoes, the full-time staff are public service employees, appointed on a similar (or identical) basis to the rest of the public sector.

I'll go with that. Apologies to the working staff.

xOxSinéadxOx

It isn't the pay that's the problem, it's the whole bloated public sector, it needs to be reformed

P. Breathnach

gurramok wrote: »

... Are half the public sector 'highly qualified professionals'?! ...

Well over a third, anyway, and possibly half.

dustbabe

Public sector workers don't pay tax: what rubbish, so you want to see my payslip??
Get rid of 2/3 of public sector workers: well good luck with never entering a hospital again.
All of you private sector crowd who drank champagne for years now are whining cos the risk you took by taking those high paid jobs are gone, and you want my sympathy for nursing the sick in this country, you must be mad. You know what happens in the Phillipines, when the only way out of the country is a nursing job, the engineers etc train as nurses.
I remember our 99 strike and we were told we were the greedy nurses, we lost thousands of nurses then, mostly cos they got private sector jobs with bonuses at christmas for twice the nursing salary.Those girls say they will still not come back to work for putting up with the crap we take every day. for those who attend hospitals, do you know the cost of your treatment? No cos you get it for free, but if harney continues with the co located hopsitals you will know. A hip replacemnt for 30 grand, 5 grand for the gall bladder. icu beds 1500 per night, without treatment. Cost of a drug related shooting, cos so many of you take illegal drugs, is about a million quid for each one. And the includes the hundreds of staff organising blood etc and scans and emergency surgery to save the person. Sure the CAB would not keep up with what it captures to fund it. And to those who pay their vhi, you need to pay at least twice your fee to actually pay your way when you attend hospital.
A few home truths thre for you now.
The public sector is not bloated, go read "How ireland cares" for an unbiased read, and a true picture of what we need

gurramok

Are you ranting at me?!

Look up how much a nurse earns in the UK or if that is not fair enough, look up what they earn in Finland, a similar sized EU country.

Must get that champagne and BMW up north now

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Well over a third, anyway, and possibly half.

Source?

dresden8

Another aside

If public sector workers get paid from the exchequer for whatever work and their tax is not a tax just a reduced pay level then if.....

private sector workers doing exactly the same work getting paid from the exchequer pay the same level of tax for the same work

then....

they are not paying tax either.

that's a ridiculous arguement.

RealityCheck

dustbabe wrote: »

The public sector is not bloated, go read "How ireland cares" for an unbiased read, and a true picture of what we need

Too much of it is focussed in the wrong areas, the front line of the health service not being one of them. However, there is no doubt that some areas of the PS could be gutted. Im thinking many working in local authorities and many of the red tape bureaucrats in the Department of Agriculture, Environment etc.
For the amount we spend on the public service we get very poor value for money.

NewDubliner

xOxSinéadxOx wrote: »

It isn't the pay that's the problem, it's the whole bloated public sector, it needs to be reformed

Great idea, never been thought of before.

How?

P. Breathnach

gurramok wrote: »

Source?

Observation. Heathcare professionals, teachers, and Gardai make up about one third of the public sector. It's not too difficult to jot down a list of other subsets of the public service where a professional qualification is required.

Dr Galen

gurramok wrote: »

Are you ranting at me?!

Look up how much a nurse earns in the UK or if that is not fair enough, look up what they earn in Finland, a similar sized EU country.

Must get that champagne and BMW up north now


Source?

just trying to give a bit of balance, but your not really comparing like with like. In many other EU countries, the role of the nurse is different to Ireland. Some countries have quite a lot more in the job than Ireland, some have quite a lot less. Thats been a major problem in a lot of frontline healthcare jobs, because your not comparing like with like.

Even comparing with the UK, isn't really accurate, as they have a different grading scale and promotion pathway. One that we could learn from for sure, but difficult to compare with.

I don't agree that everyone in the Private sector has been swanning around in BMW's or drinking cocktails. Plenty have alright, but most haven't. Everyone is finding it tough right now, so less of the sterotypical nonsense would help the discussion I'd think.

jimmmy

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

I don't agree that everyone in the Private sector has been swanning around in BMW's or drinking cocktails. Plenty have alright, but most haven't.

The average pay in the private sector, as you well know, is considerably less ( @ about 31 k ) than in the public sector ( 966 p.w or roughly 50 k per year ). Its no surprise that many of the people I know with BMW and who drink cocktails are public servants, hospital workers etc....this despite public sector accounting for only a seventh of the workforce. Go in to any business which sells luxury items over the last 6 months, and if the owner knows his business and customers / does his research ( even if just on a sample batch of customers ) , he will find most of the deliveries / big sales are to people from "guess which " sector !

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

Everyone is finding it tough right now

Some are finding it a lot tougher than others, not having the same pay, security and pensions.

K-9

jimmmy wrote: »

The average pay in the private sector, as you well know, is considerably less ( @ about 31 k )

You keep quoting this figure. Any links?

jimmmy

Your friends in the ever efficient ( lol ) Central Statistics Office can help you there....and if not, why not ?

Do you really think the 1,800,000 workers in the private sector ( from shop workers to hotel staff to factory workers to tradespeople to labourers to cleaners to professionals to farmers to everyone else ) get the public sector average of 966 euro per week week in week out, plus perks ( pension etc )

ixoy

I thought the industrial average wage was calculated from a subset of the professions in the private sector and didn't include the likes of the financial sector, IT, etc as well as excluding management?

K-9

jimmmy wrote: »

Your friends in the ever efficient ( lol ) Central Statistics Office can help you there....and if not, why not ?

Do you really think the 1,800,000 workers in the private sector ( from shop workers to hotel staff to factory workers to tradespeople to labourers to cleaners to professionals to farmers to everyone else ) get the public sector average of 966 euro per week week in week out, plus perks ( pension etc )

So no links then?

I never asked anything about the Public Sector, just a link to this 31k you preach as Gospel.

ixoy wrote: »

I thought the industrial average wage was calculated from a subset of the professions in the private sector and didn't include the likes of the financial sector, IT, etc as well as excluding management?

Indeed. It's average industrial, which considering we aren't a very industrial economy anymore, isn't as relevant as it used to be.

Cuchulain

K-9 wrote: »

So no links then?

I never asked anything about the Public Sector, just a link to this 31k you preach as Gospel.

Even if his figures were correct (which I doubt), the fact still remains that as a percentage the public sector are better qualified than the private sector. Therefore being rewarded with better pay.

gurramok

K-9 wrote: »

So no links then?

I never asked anything about the Public Sector, just a link to this 31k you preach as Gospel..

Here's one http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/Irish_2/article_1014651_printer.shtml

They make it out to be 32k in 2006 for the private sector.

Thought you might have realised it was much lower than the public sector as you will not find many Min wage workers in the public sector considering they form nearly 40% of the workforce.

gurramok

Cuchulain wrote: »

Even if his figures were correct (which I doubt), the fact still remains that as a percentage the public sector are better qualified than the private sector. Therefore being rewarded with better pay.

Yeh thats right. There are hardly any 3rd level graduates in the private sector.:rolleyes:

BroomBurner

Look, you can't compare the average private sector pay with the average public sector pay.

In the privcate sector, you have thousands of people earning on, or around, minimum wage as they're doing minimum wage type jobs, like working in shops, part-timers, etc. If you're looking at averages, you have to take out all the students and general folk that work part-time first.

In the public sector, it is just sooooo varied. You have areas that require proper qualififcations (teachers, doctors, nurses) and you have areas that require entry exams only (clerical officers). These entry exams aren't always the easiest either, you need only read the pages in the Work and Jobs section on trying to get in to any public service to know how hard it is.

What everyone needs to do is compare like for like. Stop using averages, it is a base tool for base individuals. Instead, for real comparisons, you need to compare individual sectors:

• IT private sector empoyee - graduate level, 5 years experience and 10+ years experience in both sectors
• Nursing - private hospitals versus public hospitals, also looking at grad level and various years of experience
• Admin staff - clerical officers versus general admin staff, lookin gat entry level and various years of experience

The list goes on...

ixoy

Cuchulain wrote: »

Even if his figures were correct (which I doubt), the fact still remains that as a percentage the public sector are better qualified than the private sector. Therefore being rewarded with better pay.

I'd agree it should be decided on a profession-by-profession basis.

For example, my role is roughly equivalent to that of an EO with a few years experience. I'd be on more than the equivalent EO (not much though) but I wouldn't have the same benefits they have (guaranteed increases via increments, shorter working day, flexi-time, less pressure, pension, job security) and they in turn wouldn't have some of the benefits I have (VHI eh.. occasional free drinks, merit-based performance recognition, no *sigh* pension levy). Not sure which is the better overall, but right now - in the current market conditions - I'm sure the EO is the safer position to be in.

K-9

gurramok wrote: »

Here's one http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/Irish_2/article_1014651_printer.shtml

They make it out to be 32k in 2006 for the private sector.

Thought you might have realised it was much lower than the public sector as you will not find many Min wage workers in the public sector considering they form nearly 40% of the workforce.

You are comparing certain sectors to the Public Sector.

Interestingly, only 5.2% were on minimum wage.
http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/personel/nationalpayagreement.htm

Average services sector wages would be closer to the Public Sector average.

Cuchulain

gurramok wrote: »

Yeh thats right. There are hardly any 3rd level graduates in the private sector.:rolleyes:

Reread my post, I said as a percentage. You're obviously not one of the above.

gurramok

K-9 wrote: »

You are comparing certain sectors to the Public Sector.

Interestingly, only 5.2% were on minimum wage.
http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/personel/nationalpayagreement.htm

Average services sector wages would be closer to the Public Sector average.

According to IBEC. We know that nearly 40% do not pay tax(before budgets) and that level was a salary of about 18kpa.

Anyway, we have had that most public sector workers possess higher qualifications so that would rule out minimum wage earnings?

Why would average services sector wages would be closer to the Public Sector average?

Cuchulain wrote: »

Reread my post, I said as a percentage. You're obviously not one of the above.

Post reported.

P. Breathnach

gurramok wrote: »

Here's one http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/Irish_2/article_1014651_printer.shtml

They make it out to be 32k in 2006 for the private sector...

I don't see that in the page cited.

I do see this peach:

Half of all employees earned less than €15.51 per hour (i.e. the median hourly earnings figure).

So the other half earned more than the median. That's what medians are about, isn't it?

dresden8

jimmmy wrote: »

he will find most of the deliveries / big sales are to people from "guess which " sector !

And how would he know that? Do public sector workers have signs in their front windows? Are they bar-coded? Tattooed?

gurramok

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I don't see that in the page cited.

67% of 49k makes 32k.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I do see this peach:

So the other half earned more than the median. That's what medians are about, isn't it?

Its ambiguous, ain't it!

Do they mean half of all employees across both public and private or just one of these? (it looks to me its the former)

It works about at about 30k for the median(fairer measure than average) assuming a 37hr week.