Car use rises in Dublin city

paulm17781

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0414/cars.html

If anything this highlights the need for Dublin bus to get smarter with their route planning / ticketing options.

Quint

Well, if you own a car, you've paid for the tax and insurance already, you might as well use it instead of leaving it sitting there.
If you have a parking space at work, it's going to be faster than public transport.
I see motorcycles aren't mentioned, the best form of transport around the city by a country mile

mike65

I'm interested in the fact that the recession hasn't changed things.

Cuddlesworth

"There were also more cars using routes covered by quality bus corridors."

Because the buses are still slower. From where I live at the end of the N11, there are over 20 stops on the way into town. At an average of 1 minute per stop you have at the very least twenty minutes of waste time. What good is a QBC when the bus moves 200 feet before stopping again.

paulm17781

Quint wrote: »

If you have a parking space at work, it's going to be faster than public transport.

TBH, it probably isn't but we can agree to disagree on that. What it does show, is that DB routes are terribly inefficient, slow or perceived that way. Better route planning, better route integration and integrated tickets are what is needed.

jimmycrackcorm

I found that when I needed to use a car that the M50 free-flow and other road improvements made it much quicker to get into the city centre from my home. In fact I could do the same time as the bus despite the bus having a lane practically the whole way in.

markpb

I'm usually one to defend DB and blame it all on the government but in this case, it's entirely their own fault. They persist with using double decker buses with a single doorway when other cities are moving to extended-bendis with at least three sets of doors, they persist with selling tickets on the buses instead of at bus stops and they have a selection of pre-paid tickets that aren't great value and deliberately ignore people travelling from inner suburbs to the city centre. All those things slow down the buses and make them less attractive.

I spent 4 minutes 30 seconds sitting on a 16A at the O'Connell St stop last week. That's an *enormous* amount of time for a bus (+ driver + passengers) to be idle, not to mention the delay it causes to other buses behind it.

There's no-one else to blame, they're completely inept and now their group chairman is happy to withdraw buses because he sees his patronage falling, completely ignoring the thousands of people sitting in cars who would gladly switch to DB if it wasn't so crap.

Trampas

DB can't just change the route.

The department of transport does all that

Chopper Dave

Have to say I find this quite surprising. Traffic around the city centre and the suburbs has seemed much lighter to me since the Autumn. There is definitely less construction and HGV traffic (for obvious reasons) but the number of cars seems lower as well.

Novella

I live in Dublin, own a car and drive everywhere. I would much rather sit in a bit of traffic or pay 12 euro to park all day in town than walk to a bus stop in the lashing rain, wait for a bus and then maybe not even get a seat! It's all about convenience and the people who are complaining about car usage are the people who don't own cars! If I've paid for a car, taxed and insured it, why the hell would I leave it sitting at home and take a bus?!! Get real!!!!

markpb

Novella wrote: »

I live in Dublin, own a car and drive everywhere. I would much rather sit in a bit of traffic or pay 12 euro to park all day in town than walk to a bus stop in the lashing rain, wait for a bus and then maybe not even get a seat! It's all about convenience and the people who are complaining about car usage are the people who don't own cars! If I've paid for a car, taxed and insured it, why the hell would I leave it sitting at home and take a bus?!! Get real!!!!

First of all, where did that rant come from? Who's telling anyone to take the bus? Who's giving out at all? Do you have a chip on your shoulder at all?

Secondly that's your opinion and there's nothing wrong with it. However, certain parts of the city cannot supply enough road to cope with the demands so the city has to find some other way to maximise the number of people able to use the road. Bus lanes, tram lines, etc are are cheap solution to that. If the congestion in private vehicle lanes increases as a result, you've chosen to drive in those lanes so you must accept the consequences.

Novella

markpb wrote: »

Do you have a chip on your shoulder at all?

I must do!

DWCommuter

mike65 wrote: »

I'm interested in the fact that the recession hasn't changed things.

It has changed things. Traffic is generally lighter overall. These figures are from last year.

Victor

This comparison isn't about buses - read the piece - "the HGV ban had made more free space in the city for private cars and the M50 upgrade works forced more motorists in the city centre."

If you want to fix the buses, make the QBCs continuous and fix the ticketing.

antoinolachtnai

That is incorrect. Dublin Bus notifies proposed changes and the Department notes them.

In practice, it is more complicated than that. A lot of people have to be consulted.

However Dublin Bus is squarely resposible for and in charge of the strategic development of the network.

LostinBlanch

I'm not surprised at this as I have spent too much time waiting in the rain at bus stops for busses that don't come. The timetable is little more than a work of fiction and about as reliable as the last FF manifesto. And before others say that busses can't get there on time because of traffic etc. I have spent too much time at weekends when there is f**k all traffic on the road but still the busses don't turn up.

crocro

markpb wrote: »

There's no-one else to blame, they're completely inept and now their group chairman is happy to withdraw buses because he sees his patronage falling, completely ignoring the thousands of people sitting in cars who would gladly switch to DB if it wasn't so crap.

It's not fair to blame DB entirely. They are prevented from allocating their resources efficiently by political interference. If, for example, they want to shut down a route with tiny patronage and switch the bus to a route that is overloaded, the local politician will lobby for retention of the old route.

It's not the politician's fault either, as it's his job to lobby for his constituents. It's a bad system that allows for too much intervention in the running of the service.

In the case of industrial action, past transport ministers have sided with the unions (in the face of political pressure to end a strike) and obliged the management to capitulate.

Management have limited powers to set fares, make financial decisions such as borrowing money or making capital investments.

The deloitte report showed that while bus numbers had increased by a third in recent years, that passenger numbers are declining. This is hardly an argument for more buses.

The report recommended redesigning the route network - yet route changes can take years to pass through an opaque approval process in the civil service that seems to add no value. And worse, as mentioned above, sensible route changes are subject to political veto.

Management are trapped between the conflicting needs of their political superiors and their passengers.

Management figure out that they will be rewarded with predictable pay, career path and pension if they tow the line and punished should they act in favour of the passengers. It's hardly surprising that they amble along running a shoddy service and collecting their pay-cheques when that's the system that we have.

Victor wrote: »

If you want to fix the buses, make the QBCs continuous and fix the ticketing.

Yes and...
off-bus ticketing
less stops
more doors
Real-time passenger info at stops
Punctual buses, particularly off-peak when congestion is not a factor.
No leaving terminus early
zonal fares
network redesign based on passenger demand rather than ward boundaries
allow management to manage

bmaxi

markpb wrote: »

I'm usually one to defend DB and blame it all on the government but in this case, it's entirely their own fault. They persist with using double decker buses with a single doorway when other cities are moving to extended-bendis with at least three sets of doors, they persist with selling tickets on the buses instead of at bus stops and they have a selection of pre-paid tickets that aren't great value and deliberately ignore people travelling from inner suburbs to the city centre. All those things slow down the buses and make them less attractive.

I spent 4 minutes 30 seconds sitting on a 16A at the O'Connell St stop last week. That's an *enormous* amount of time for a bus (+ driver + passengers) to be idle, not to mention the delay it causes to other buses behind it.

There's no-one else to blame, they're completely inept and now their group chairman is happy to withdraw buses because he sees his patronage falling, completely ignoring the thousands of people sitting in cars who would gladly switch to DB if it wasn't so crap.

I remember, when working for Dublin Bus in the 1970's two door buses being introduced with the view to one man operation and the very situation you speak of, i.e. front door on rear door off. Why did they revert to single door operation, was it a passenger discipline issue? I recall that being a problem even with a two man crew

Davy

bmaxi wrote: »

I remember, when working for Dublin Bus in the 1970's two door buses being introduced with the view to one man operation and the very situation you speak of, i.e. front door on rear door off. Why did they revert to single door operation, was it a passenger discipline issue? I recall that being a problem even with a two man crew

Well its also where they have wheelchairs spaces now, so that might have also contributed.

markpb

bmaxi wrote: »

I remember, when working for Dublin Bus in the 1970's two door buses being introduced with the view to one man operation and the very situation you speak of, i.e. front door on rear door off. Why did they revert to single door operation, was it a passenger discipline issue? I recall that being a problem even with a two man crew

Bus drivers couldn't guarantee they could put up with both doors parallel to the footpath because of the complete absence of any parking enforcement in Dublin. In the event of a passenger hurting themselves, the LRC ruled that the drivers would be personally liable and could sue the driver so they left it up to the driver to decide whether to open the door or not. So few drivers used the doors that (apparently) they started to seize up and would prevent the bus from going into gear if they broke.

Some would call it a comedy of errors. I can think of a better name.

bmaxi

markpb wrote: »

Bus drivers couldn't guarantee they could put up with both doors parallel to the footpath because of the complete absence of any parking enforcement in Dublin. In the event of a passenger hurting themselves, the LRC ruled that the drivers would be personally liable and could sue the driver so they left it up to the driver to decide whether to open the door or not. So few drivers used the doors that (apparently) they started to seize up and would prevent the bus from going into gear if they broke.

Some would call it a comedy of errors. I can think of a better name.

That sounds plausible, I remember they did operate via the gear stick.
It's amazing how many problems could be alleviated in this country, from traffic snarl ups to Social Welfare fraud, by simple enforcement of the rules.

shltter

markpb wrote: »

I'm usually one to defend DB and blame it all on the government but in this case, it's entirely their own fault. They persist with using double decker buses with a single doorway when other cities are moving to extended-bendis with at least three sets of doors, they persist with selling tickets on the buses instead of at bus stops and they have a selection of pre-paid tickets that aren't great value and deliberately ignore people travelling from inner suburbs to the city centre. All those things slow down the buses and make them less attractive.

I spent 4 minutes 30 seconds sitting on a 16A at the O'Connell St stop last week. That's an *enormous* amount of time for a bus (+ driver + passengers) to be idle, not to mention the delay it causes to other buses behind it.

There's no-one else to blame, they're completely inept and now their group chairman is happy to withdraw buses because he sees his patronage falling, completely ignoring the thousands of people sitting in cars who would gladly switch to DB if it wasn't so crap.

In fairness DB did try the bendi bus and it has been a disaster take the Route 4 which is currently lumbered with them. Longer bus same length bus stops its a joke. And the gardai could not be bothered their arse trying to keep the current bus stops clear and DB is afraid to push the issue because if they complain about residents parking in stops they are afraid that the residents will get the bus stop removed due to "anti-social" behaviour.

Yes DB is to blame as well but its not all about them

DWCommuter

Im sensing that a lot of our problems are down to political interference through political lobbying, by politicians who don't understand or give a ****e about how public transport works.

bus fares increased so more switched to cars

Gruffalo

DWCommuter wrote: »

Im sensing that a lot of our problems are down to political interference through political lobbying, by politicians who don't understand or give a ****e about how public transport works.

Very true Derek. Perhaps it would improve if instead of giving ministers their own cars, and paying politicians large expenses, we bought them an annual ticket at the start of every year and forced them to use public transport.

Ok, I know it is fantasy.

Gruffalo

crocro wrote: »

Yes and...
off-bus ticketing
less stops
more doors
Real-time passenger info at stops
Punctual buses, particularly off-peak when congestion is not a factor.
No leaving terminus early
zonal fares
network redesign based on passenger demand rather than ward boundaries
allow management to manage

And the sad thing is that these would not be particularly expensive or complicated to implement, if there was the will.

Victor

Davy wrote: »

Well its also where they have wheelchairs spaces now, so that might have also contributed.

Not really, some buses of the same model have the wheelchair space behind the stairs.

L1011

Much of the dwell time issue with single door buses is our inability to queue in this country; they seem to work relatively well in Brighton - their Scania double deckers are all single door; but people there know how to queue and let people off first!

Also most passengers there use (1980s relic, scratchcard) daily or weekly tickets as the flat fare system is so high as to make a return journey cheaper to do on a daily ticket... which you can buy in nearly every shop.

DubTony

A 0.4% increase in the number of cars entering the city last year and this is a big deal? I'd say someone's spinning this thing and readying us for a congestion charge. The population of Dublin has grown so obviously there are more cars around. One thing that seems to have been ignored is that last summer and the summer of '07 were both atrociously wet. People use their cars when it rains. It wouldn't take a lot of additional cars during the quietest time (the summer) to increase traffic by less than half a percent.

monument

Isn't people paying cash still the major reason for delays at stops?

When I use the bus the cash payers are normally slow, but added to that there's more often than not somebody who spends a silly amount of time messing about.

From experience of trying to convince a few people that they would save money and time by switching to pre-paid tickets, the only way of getting people to switch is really bump up the price of cash fairs -- and there should be no excuses once smartcards are fully in place (when every that will be :rolleyes:)

antoinolachtnai

You are assuming that the smartcard system will mean that people will not have to talk tot the driver and have a ticket issued because they are using a smartcard.

This is not the case. To get the best fare for short or medium journeys, Dublin Bus customers will have to present their smartcard to the driver at the ticket machine and state their destination. He will then put the appropriate ticket onto the card.

There won't really be a big saving of time.

Thoie

Something that would speed things up is if fares were posted at the bus-stop. I use buses irregularly. There is one bus I use into town that I know/knew what my fare was (though I think it's gone up since).

If you look at the fare information on the DB website (http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/Fares/) you see that the fare is calculated by stages. Stages do not equate to actual bus-stops as far as I can see. So if I've been told by a friend to get off at the 9th stop, I've no idea what stage that is at, or how much I should pay. Maps with prices at bus stops might help, but a simplified fare system, like that used by the Luas would help.

monument

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You are assuming that the smartcard system will mean that people will not have to talk tot the driver and have a ticket issued because they are using a smartcard.

This is not the case. To get the best fare for short or medium journeys, Dublin Bus customers will have to present their smartcard to the driver at the ticket machine and state their destination. He will then put the appropriate ticket onto the card.

There won't really be a big saving of time.

Didn't think of that.

With wallet-type smartcards, could a tag-on / tag-off system like Luas not be used on buses?

Capt'n Midnight

main costs in keeping a car are fixed overheads, so the additional cost of fuel is not a disincentive to using it. It would be nice to have a system where road tax / insurance costs were proportional to the how much you drive. At present you can save 25% on your insurance by cutting your driving by 50% (not exact figures) which is a pretty bad deal since at a first approximation accidents should be proportional to distance travelled I would have thought.

Wasn't there a graph somewhere that shows just how slow traffic has to be to get people switching from car to bus ? Not everyone changes over but IIRC it was something like 10-12km/hr before there was substantial change.

antoinolachtnai

monument wrote: »

With wallet-type smartcards, could a tag-on / tag-off system like Luas not be used on buses?

Sure it could. But Dublin Bus have decided not to do that.

I believe a study was done and it found that no other bus service in the world with single-door buses used tag-on/tag-off. (Although I also understand that this was an incorrect finding.)

Cool Mo D

One thing that I find particularly stupid about Dublin's public transport is the sheer lack of integration, and it's not just integrated ticketing, although that's a large part of it.

There should have been a large scale reorganisation of bus routes near DART and Luas lines, with a view to making areas nearby a rail link have their buses go right up to the station, and be able to make DART-bus-Luas transfers with a single ticket, and have integrated timetables for all three modes, so buses arrive at stations in time to get the train.

This would free up buses from crawling through the city centre, and allow for a much more high frequency bus network of local and suburb to suburb links with the same number of buses, with travel to the city covered by Luas and DART where available, and limited stop express buses on QBCs where not.
The only disadvantage would be that lots of people would have to make a change to get into the city, but this would not be a problem with a proper integrated ticketing system.

It would require someone to sit down, and devise such a system with a bit of intelligence and forward planning, but there isn't much of that on show with public transport on Dublin.

antoinolachtnai

that should be done and it is ultimately the way to go.

However, there just isn't enough capacity on those services on-peak.

Also, if you try and plan a service that runs at right angles to the DART and the Luas, it tends to be tough to operate. The problem is that all the road capacity points towards the city centre. You often end up on crowded, slow roads. An example is the 18 bus route.

The answer to this problem is fairly extensive prioritizing. But it's not easy to achieve that.

It's likely that a further solution that is required for this is congestion management of some sort. Again, this is a tough thing to achieve.

Geog

It's unlikely things will improve significantly until public transport is of a high standard. I'm in Dublin from time to time but live in Cork. It's funny that, in the absence of adequate public transport, the government is bringing in this E200 parking levy for any worker in urban or suburban areas that have access to a parking space. This is very unfair on those who have no option but to drive. It's also extremely unfair on so many people I know who mostly walk to work but drive maybe 20 days a year yet would then have to pay E200 for the privilege of parking their car in an outer suburban area for 20 days!! Just another money generating exercise if you ask me.

Geog

Sorry. What I meant was that it certainly is nothing to do with cutting down traffic volumes, just a money making exercise for the government.

Mr. Frost

Monorail FTW!

Metrobest

Victor wrote: »

If you want to fix the buses, make the QBCs continuous and fix the ticketing.

More QBCs are not the answer. QBCs are painted lines on narrow streets that don't address the real issues. It's more an issue of lane capacity - of lack thereof.

Many QBCs are white elephants. Far better to concentrate on improving junction flow where buses are being held up. Example: junction Wexford Street/Cuffe Steet where buses hardly ever get through the lights on first approach. Adjusting the light sequence could save buses 120 seconds of stagnation. Replicate this along whole routes and journeys speed up hugely.
- Focus on road markings all over Dublin. In the rush hour there should be Clearways where the parking lane becomes another traffic lane. This works in aterial routes in Sydney - it could work in Dublin too. This would create more consistent arterial pathways with a set number of lanes - for example Dame Street to Terenure via the N81 can have 2 clear lanes in each direction. It doesn't need a bus lane - it just needs improved traffic flow. And on these routes there should be proper green waves - fixed at a speed of 30kmph. Drive any faster and you hit red.
- The city centre is a mess for traffic in general. There is no consistency in lane utilisation; for example O'Connell Bridge doesn't need so many lanes while Westmoreland Street is not flowing properly despite the number of lanes it has. D'Olier Street seems to have extra capacity which is unused. Too many arterial routes such as Pearse Street end in a bottleneck instead of logical through-routes. Traffic queues hap-hazardly due to the scattergun approach to lane marking. Yellow boxes are an eyesore which seem to be ignored anyway.

If Dublin buses could move swiftly through junctions and operate with drastically reduced dwell times (with pay-on-board option eliminated in rush hour), there are incredible opportunities to inspire people to switch. But first the bus has to offer real benefits over the private car. QBCs which have stops every 200 metres and buses spending 60+ seconds stagnant at every stop while people fumble in their pockets for a 5 cent coin in the pouring rain will never offer a nice alternative to the pleasure of the private car.

These issues are within the span of control of Dublin Bus management. Management needs to present a clear business case for these changes with all the relevent stakeholders. I don't think other stakeholders are anti-bus; they just can't see any benefit of changing the current situation because Dublin Bus doesn't seem to be a partner for change. All too often, Dublin Bus plays the victim card, and it puts out the begging bowl for more subsides while it enjoys a customer base that most other European operators would kill for! In reality, most of Dublin Bus's problems are self-inflicted. It's a woeful indictment of the Dublin Bus service that during a period where car use continues to rise despite economic recession, bus use is dwindling.