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Protestants

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    #62
    Denerick
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Denerick


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Only problem is Protestantism might be too much to the individual in some implementations, in churches and so on. The belief that Jesus Christ is your personal Lord and Saviour is fine, as long as you realise that Christ is the Lord and Saviour or many others too.

    As for Catholicism, people were fed up with not being able to read the Bible in their own language or vernacular. That was infact the main reason of the Reformation for Luther, Tyndale and others.

    I always found the reformation fascinating, it was like a huge steam engine which rised in momentum every passing year. It started with very reasonable complaints about abuses in the church, differences over dogma, the vernacular etc... It ends with Paisley, Bush and the abortion debates. Or will it ever end?


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    #63
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Denerick wrote: »
    I always found the reformation fascinating, it was like a huge steam engine which rised in momentum every passing year. It started with very reasonable complaints about abuses in the church, differences over dogma, the vernacular etc... It ends with Paisley, Bush and the abortion debates. Or will it ever end?

    I think the Church will always need to be reformed to check that it is in accordance with Biblical teachings. It's part of human nature that we can slip from norms and that we can deviate from the situation we are aiming for.


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    #64
    Hookey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Hookey


    getz wrote: »
    so both the spanish armarda and the french attempt to invade had nothing to do with the catholic church ?is that from the catholic churches own history book ?i must read that sometime

    Not "nothing", but less than propagandists at the time would have you think. Spain's ultimate objective with the Armada was to strangle a growing English mercantile threat to its empire in the cradle; using Elizabeth I's treatment of her catholic family members was a convenient excuse (helped by the fact that Philip II was devout and it was his relatives). All of France's wars with England have been economic struggles; Catholic v. Protestant was largely irrelevant except for propaganda purposes and at certain flashpoints like English sheltering of the Huguenots.

    Don't forget that throughout the 17th century the papacy had bigger fish to fry than England; direct confrontation in the Germanies took most of their attention because most of their direct revenues came from the Holy Roman Empire (e.g. mostly Germany) and the 30 Years War wrecked that (and put the rather wealthy Spanish in control of the Papacy for over a century).


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    #65
    Hookey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Hookey


    Snickers Man wrote: »
    Catholicism is the religion of feudalism, monarchy, and hierarchy.

    Protestantism is the religion of capitalism, democracy and individualism.

    Or so an atheist Trotskyite once tried to convince me.

    It's generally true but as always with history it leads to some striking ironies. Notably that most of the monarchies left in Europe are in Protestant countries. (Britain, Scandinavia, Holland). The Catholics only have Spain and Belgium.

    Its not that ironic; the protestant monarchies survive because they were put in a box to be brought out for state occasions and not interfere with business a long time ago (rather like God in fact), whereas the more authoritarian catholic monarchies were usually brought down by violent overthrow (including Spain, which has only revived by acting like a protestant monarchy). And Belgium is only half-Catholic and a country formed after most of the real religious struggle was over.


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    #66
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    Denerick wrote: »
    To be short, its just to easy and lazy to blame the catholic church. I'm an atheist by the way but I have long come off the adolescent 'I hate the church and the church ruined everything' stage.

    Ah come on now, I am not blaming everything on the church, nor do I hate it and think it is the devil. I just wanted to see how Ireland would have been a different (and yes, better) place if we accepted Protestantism. And would the Irish have been as discriminated against and persecuted if we converted from Cromwellian times onwards?


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    #67
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    WindSock wrote: »
    Ah come on now, I am not blaming everything on the church, nor do I hate it and think it is the devil. I just wanted to see how Ireland would have been a different (and yes, better) place if we accepted Protestantism. And would the Irish have been as discriminated against and persecuted if we converted from Cromwellian times onwards?

    I'd say there is a possibility that they could have been for ethnic reasons in the future. However I'd say the adoption of Protestantism could have helped their cause for that while. However, I have issue with regarding the Protestantism of Cromwell as anything but a political or a cultural form of Protestantism.

    Remember that there was a form of British Israelism, concerning the descent of the British from the kingly tribe of Judah which King David the greatest King of Israel came from. As such there was an idea that the British had been chosen by God, and that God was on their side rather than on the side of many others. I've heard that this belief is still adopted by a small portion of people in the Britain and in Northern Ireland. This would have made it a much more ethnic issue rather than a religious issue although they would be connected.

    See: http://www.britishisrael.co.uk/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism


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    #68
    bitter
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭bitter


    If the whole of Ireland embraced the Reformation there would be a United Ireland today...


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    #69
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    bitter wrote: »
    If the whole of Ireland embraced the Reformation there would be a United Ireland today...

    What evidence do you have for this? While in NI being Protestant and Unionist tend to go together, the attachment to the UK is more than a matter of religious persuasion. Perhaps if Ireland had embraced the Reformation a couple of hundred years ago we would still be part of the UK? Anyway, except for a few hundred nutters on each side most of us just want to get on with our lives in peace. If a United Ireland is ever achieved it will come about by a gradual breakdown of barriers between communities not political, religious changes or increased birth rates in one community. Personally, I don't care whether there's ever a United Ireland and I don't think that there ever will be but ever is a long time.


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    #70
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    What evidence do you have for this? While in NI being Protestant and Unionist tend to go together, the attachment to the UK is more than a matter of religious persuasion.
    To equate Protestant with unionist and Catholicism with nationalism is obviously blatantly inaccurate, but regretfully people still tend to label it as so. As for unionist attachement to the UK, the Golden Rule of Unionism - unionists are only loyal to Britain so long as Britain is only loyal to them.
    Perhaps if Ireland had embraced the Reformation a couple of hundred years ago we would still be part of the UK? Anyway, except for a few hundred nutters on each side most of us just want to get on with our lives in peace. If a United Ireland is ever achieved it will come about by a gradual breakdown of barriers between communities not political, religious changes or increased birth rates in one community. Personally, I don't care whether there's ever a United Ireland and I don't think that there ever will be but ever is a long time.

    Year Unionism Nationalism Margin
    2003 342907 280305 62602
    2007 335888 293767 42121
    2011 329000? 307000? 22000?

    http://endgameinulster.blogspot.com/2010/07/2009-balance-sheet.html

    The occupation of the six counties has only a decade or two left. If we can wait 8 centuries that time will fly by :)


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    #71
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,056 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    There would have been an awful lot of poor Protestant Irish peasants instead of an awful lot of poor Catholic Irish peasants, had Ireland gone along with the Reformation 100%.

    The ruling classes didn't treat the peasants any better if they were of the same religious persuasion.


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    #72
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Denerick wrote: »
    Ugh... What an innocuous statement.
    Are you sure you know what innocuous means? :)


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    #73
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Patsy that's one bizarre website you linked to http://endgameinulster.blogspot.com/...nce-sheet.html

    What is being suggested? Is it implying that one theoretical day when nationalists have one more vote than unionists the North will become part of a United Ireland? I find it incredible that anybody would be sad enough to go working on statistics like that. If they put the same effort into doing something useful like pulling wings off flies they would be better off. :rolleyes:

    I would agree with you about Loyalists being loyal to Britain as long as Britain is loyal to them - that's what sets them apart from their southern brethren who remained true believers despite being cut adrift in 1922.


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    #74
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    What are the rules on the referendum. Who gets to request one and how often can it happen?


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    #75
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Patsy that's one bizarre website you linked to http://endgameinulster.blogspot.com/...nce-sheet.html

    What is being suggested? Is it implying that one theoretical day when nationalists have one more vote than unionists the North will become part of a United Ireland? I find it incredible that anybody would be sad enough to go working on statistics like that. If they put the same effort into doing something useful like pulling wings off flies they would be better off. :rolleyes:

    I would agree with you about Loyalists being loyal to Britain as long as Britain is loyal to them - that's what sets them apart from their southern brethren who remained true believers despite being cut adrift in 1922.
    It's the Assembly election results and what they might possibly be in 2011. Cann't see how you see them as bizarre :cool:

    Year Unionism Nationalism Margin
    2003 342907 280305 62602
    2007 335888 293767 42121
    2011 329000? 307000? 22000?


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    #76
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Even more bizarre - the website is gone since the earlier post. They haven't gone away you know. :D


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    #77
    bitter
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭bitter


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    What evidence do you have for this? While in NI being Protestant and Unionist tend to go together, the attachment to the UK is more than a matter of religious persuasion. Perhaps if Ireland had embraced the Reformation a couple of hundred years ago we would still be part of the UK? Anyway, except for a few hundred nutters on each side most of us just want to get on with our lives in peace. If a United Ireland is ever achieved it will come about by a gradual breakdown of barriers between communities not political, religious changes or increased birth rates in one community. Personally, I don't care whether there's ever a United Ireland and I don't think that there ever will be but ever is a long time.


    The majority of the protestants on the Island who supported King Billy were out in 1798 against the Crown. Irish Republicanism and the best Irish patriots were of protestant stock. Remember 95% of the Irish protestants who went to America fought passionately against the Crown less than a hundred years after 1690. The Catholic Church was and is the biggest barrier to a United Ireland,remember that organisation came in with the invading Normans.


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    #78
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    bitter wrote: »
    The majority of the protestants on the Island who supported King Billy were out in 1798 against the Crown. Irish Republicanism and the best Irish patriots were of protestant stock. Remember 95% of the Irish protestants who went to America fought passionately against the Crown less than a hundred years after 1690. The Catholic Church was and is the biggest barrier to a United Ireland,remember that organisation came in with the invading Normans.

    I think that's somewhat of a distortion of the facts. In what is now Northern Ireland it was Presbyterians who were to the fore in 1798 but for the most part Protestants in the rest of the country were zealous loyalists excluding a few renegades such as Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmet and Bagenal Harvey. The American situation can't really be compared to the Irish one as most who emigrated to the colonies had adopted the place as their new country and old allegiances to a distant England were forgotten. I don't know about your 95% figure either as there were plenty of loyalists in the US too. A Wiki link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalist_(American_Revolution) makes for interesting reading. I know Wiki isn't 100% on everything but is usually reasonably reliable on historical matters.


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    #79
    bitter
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭bitter


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    I think that's somewhat of a distortion of the facts. In what is now Northern Ireland it was Presbyterians who were to the fore in 1798 but for the most part Protestants in the rest of the country were zealous loyalists excluding a few renegades such as Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmet and Bagenal Harvey. The American situation can't really be compared to the Irish one as most who emigrated to the colonies had adopted the place as their new country and old allegiances to a distant England were forgotten. I don't know about your 95% figure either as there were plenty of loyalists in the US too. A Wiki link here makes for interesting reading. I know Wiki isn't 100% on everything but is usually reasonably reliable on historical matters.


    The American situation is pretty much the same as most protestant/presbyterian folk had emigrated to Ireland as well and America was a colony of the Crown when they emigrated to America. The issue here in the States was tyranny by the Crown and the issue in Ireland in 1690 was the percieved tyranny of the Vatican. The main issue of Home Rule was Rome Rule and the protestant folk in the 6 counties were right about this it must be said. Michael Collins people were of English stock as well.


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    #80
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    bitter wrote: »
    The American situation is pretty much the same as most protestant/presbyterian folk had emigrated to Ireland as well and America was a colony of the Crown when they emigrated to America. The issue here in the States was tyranny by the Crown and the issue in Ireland in 1690 was the percieved tyranny of the Vatican. The main issue of Home Rule was Rome Rule and the protestant folk in the 6 counties were right about this it must be said. Michael Collins people were of English stock as well.
    The Catholic church supported the gay mercenary Dutch William of Orange in 1690. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-166059280.html

    Collins of English stock ? Read Tim Pat Coogans excellent biography of him and cannot remember reading that :confused:


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    #81
    bitter
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭bitter


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    The Catholic church supported the gay mercenary Dutch William of Orange in 1690. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-166059280.html

    Collins of English stock ? Read Tim Pat Coogans excellent biography of him and cannot remember reading that :confused:


    Collins is an English name.. Coogan stretches the truth as well


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    #82
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    bitter wrote: »
    The majority of the protestants on the Island who supported King Billy were out in 1798 against the Crown. Irish Republicanism and the best Irish patriots were of protestant stock. Remember 95% of the Irish protestants who went to America fought passionately against the Crown less than a hundred years after 1690. The Catholic Church was and is the biggest barrier to a United Ireland,remember that organisation came in with the invading Normans.

    Stop comparing southern Protestants to northern Protestants ones the church of Ireland is a totally different culture and religion to Presbyterian church we have different traditions it is like comparing the catholic church to the Presbyterian church we are not the same so stop grouping us!? That really annoys me! Because of that our political views would be different


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    #83
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Onto the question.. Yes I think that it wouldve been better for southern Ireland to have been a Protestant religion simply because there would be no fighting and there would be freedom no nonscemce from the catholic church trying to control everyone including protestants


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    #84
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    bitter wrote: »
    Collins is an English name.. Coogan stretches the truth as well

    Sorry if I Sound rude for correcting you .. No Collins is an Irish name it was translated when the English came over like many Irish names the only way a person who Is in Ireland and is called Collins would be English would be to be Protestant and to have been planted..


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    #85
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    WindSock wrote: »
    Ah come on now, I am not blaming everything on the church, nor do I hate it and think it is the devil. I just wanted to see how Ireland would have been a different (and yes, better) place if we accepted Protestantism. And would the Irish have been as discriminated against and persecuted if we converted from Cromwellian times onwards?

    Tbh I don't think it wouldve made a difference the English wanted their own people here ruling the lands and have nothing to do with the irish.. The area were my family is from is a prime example and a unique experience for the plantation in 1618 a man called Philip came over here from Scotland and pushed all the Irish out of the local parish and BOUGHT all their land then he brought people over from his town Who he hired to plant the town and they sold each townlabd to people from that town because of this everyone where my family comes from are almost exclusively from this one town in Scotland.. The natives were Sent to Galway and waterford.. I got this off a local historian from my area I was surprised because I thought the Catholics made all that up


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    #86
    bitter
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭bitter


    owenc wrote: »
    Stop comparing southern Protestants to northern Protestants ones the church of Ireland is a totally different culture and religion to Presbyterian church we have different traditions it is like comparing the catholic church to the Presbyterian church we are not the same so stop grouping us!? That really annoys me! Because of that our political views would be different


    I'm talking about back in those times owenc. Today is a whole different story of course as it is for catholics north & south of the border.


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    #87
    bitter
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭bitter


    owenc wrote: »
    Sorry if I Sound rude for correcting you .. No Collins is an Irish name it was translated when the English came over like many Irish names the only way a person who Is in Ireland and is called Collins would be English would be to be Protestant and to have been planted..

    Collins was of english stock


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    #88
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    owenc wrote: »
    Stop comparing southern Protestants to northern Protestants ones the church of Ireland is a totally different culture and religion to Presbyterian church we have different traditions it is like comparing the catholic church to the Presbyterian church we are not the same so stop grouping us!? That really annoys me! Because of that our political views would be different

    So southern coi protestants are different to northern coi protestants? Not everyone is automatically talking about presbyterians.
    bitter wrote: »
    Collins was of english stock

    Provide evidence tbh.


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    #89
    bitter
    Registered Users Posts: 166 ✭✭bitter


    brianthebard wrote: »
    So southern coi protestants are different to northern coi protestants? Not everyone is automatically talking about presbyterians.



    Provide evidence tbh.


    look it up


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    #90
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    bitter wrote: »
    Collins was of english stock

    Are you sure hmm.. Edit just looked it up he is catholic and so is the rest of the family don't think a man like that would set foot in a Protestant church


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    #91
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    brianthebard wrote: »
    So southern coi protestants are different to northern coi protestants? Not everyone is automatically talking about presbyterians.



    Provide evidence tbh.

    Actually yes they are the northern knew are for the union the southern ones arent


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