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Protestants

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    #152
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    walrusgumble wrote: »
    ah, the Catholics - hiberian order- were no angels either.

    on a political front, i wonder how the alliance party will do in the future. i know some are unionist, but they are no appealing than DUP and UUP and not every nationalist like sinn fein (assuming there is no credibile SDLP candidate around)
    Well I suppose the Hiberians mirror the Orange Order in appearence. It's a micro organisation, I have never known anyone to be it nor have seen them march. Compare that to the 2,000+ OO marches - some through nationalist areas and towns that don't want them. And I have never heard of them denouncing Protestants as " breeding like rabbits ", "destined for the bowls of hell" descriping senior Protestant clergy as "the anti Christ" and during the troubles demanding that the RAF carpet bomb unionist towns and villages etc


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    #153
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    I'm going to make a massive logical jump (don't know if thats right word)

    But its my opinion that the fact Irelands population remained mainly Catholic meant that Irish society was integrated into a larger than national (though to use the term for the period I'm referring to is probably wrong) network consider all the catholic universities dotted across europe and the fact that the local priest in a small parish in the Burren could have recieved his education in Seville
    http://www.clarelibrary.ie/eolas/coclare/history/popish_parish_priests_1704_list.htm

    In short Ireland was tied into europe which is why today the Irish like the EU and the English in general dislike(fear) it.
    ;)


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    #154
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    That is a point Ireland looked to Europe as equals in terms of education and status


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    #155
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    One might even say superiors in a way, if you read some of the literature coming out during the revival there are an awful lot of people making statements to the effect of 'don't forget who re-educated the continent after the dark ages when all other civilizations had fallen'. There was the sense that Ireland had for a number of centuries a spiritual and pedagogical empire of sorts before the beginning of the invasions. These connections continued even throughout invasion and occupation up to present day.


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    #156
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    It's the Assembly election results and what they might possibly be in 2011. Cann't see how you see them as bizarre :cool:

    Year Unionism Nationalism Margin
    2003 342907 280305 62602
    2007 335888 293767 42121
    2011 329000? 307000? 22000?

    I often wonder how much class will impact on the voting system.

    It is not simply about Nationalist vs Unionism anymore but when people start thinking various policies.

    Like how does Labour politics interact , feminism etc. Will they become more relevant.

    Also, we have seen that "Protestantism" is not a unified religion Presbyterians & Methodists & C of I are not all the same either.

    What combinations will you get ?


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    #157
    PatsytheNazi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    CDfm wrote: »
    I often wonder how much class will impact on the voting system.

    It is not simply about Nationalist vs Unionism anymore but when people start thinking various policies.

    Like how does Labour politics interact , feminism etc. Will they become more relevant.

    Also, we have seen that "Protestantism" is not a unified religion Presbyterians & Methodists & C of I are not all the same either.

    What combinations will you get ?
    I don't see much change in the future. You cannot see Catholics voting for Paisley's DUP or the TUV who only last week Jim Alister stated he wouldn't attend Ronan Kerr's funeral on religious grounds, need I say anymore.


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    #158
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    I don't see much change in the future. You cannot see Catholics voting for Paisley's DUP or the TUV who only last week Jim Alister stated he wouldn't attend Ronan Kerr's funeral on religious grounds, need I say anymore.

    You are right - I was in Belfast in November and in lots of ways its 1973 .

    More reminiscent of the southern US states in the 1960's.


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    #159
    Sgt.Peppers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 107 ✭✭Sgt.Peppers


    ireland would have been better of without any religion


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    #160
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Sgt.Peppers wrote: »
    ireland would have been better of without any religion

    The thread isn't about anti-theism, so I don't see the value in saying this in a thread concerning the History and Heritage of Protestants.


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    #161
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Sgt.Peppers wrote: »
    ireland would have been better of without any religion

    I don't want to really say this but it wouldve been better if the reformation didn't occur then we wouldn't have this nonsence


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    #162
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    walrusgumble wrote: »
    ah, the Catholics - hiberian order- were no angels either.

    on a political front, i wonder how the alliance party will do in the future. i know some are unionist, but they are no appealing than DUP and UUP and not every nationalist like sinn fein (assuming there is no credibile SDLP candidate around)

    Deary me you dont need to remind me.. But if you were brought up In a mojority Protestant area In northern Ireland you would probably realise that besides the Ira the protestants are much much worse than the Catholics you don't see Catholics burning fake dummies of Protestants or burning Protestants out of their homes do you?? I think anyone who follows The orange order no offence has something mental going on seriously who would support a group who burns another religion that should not be tolerated!! They are alright to watch and all but
    a group like that shouldn't even exist in this day and age. It's quite embarrassing when people
    say that they represent us I for one am not represented by such a bigoted group at all I despise them as do many other Protestants especially policemen.. You've know idea the stories
    I've been told.. They think they own the place!! Never done causing hassle to the police it made me sad when I seen that programme on the orange order and it said that they couldn't socialise with Catholics as they were "inferiour" to you :( what did Catholics ever do to them seriously sorry for this rant I'm just so embarrassed about them..


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    #163
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    PatsytheNazi wrote: »
    I don't see much change in the future. You cannot see Catholics voting for Paisley's DUP or the TUV who only last week Jim Alister stated he wouldn't attend Ronan Kerr's funeral on religious grounds, need I say anymore.

    Totally agree I canny see northern Ireland changing at all everytime they say they say they are moving on they start put way crap like this they seriously aren't moving on!! They just act all nicey nice but I'n reality they wanny eat eachother ut goes on everyday false nonscence :mad:


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    #164
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    CDfm wrote: »
    I often wonder how much class will impact on the voting system.

    It is not simply about Nationalist vs Unionism anymore but when people start thinking various policies.

    Like how does Labour politics interact , feminism etc. Will they become more relevant.

    Also, we have seen that "Protestantism" is not a unified religion Presbyterians & Methodists & C of I are not all the same either.

    What combinations will you get ?

    Now that you say that I can see a trend emerging the church of Ireland folk are starting to vote for the uup and the presbyterians are voting for the dup.. I think it will come out even more segregated I'n the end up


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    #165
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    owenc wrote: »
    Now that you say that I can see a trend emerging the church of Ireland folk are starting to vote for the uup and the presbyterians are voting for the dup.. I think it will come out even more segregated I'n the end up

    I would have thought that traditionally C of I people tended to vote UUP and Presbyterians for the DUP? :confused:


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    #166
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    owenc wrote: »
    Now that you say that I can see a trend emerging the church of Ireland folk are starting to vote for the uup and the presbyterians are voting for the dup.. I think it will come out even more segregated I'n the end up

    There is a bit of tribalism then or are they voting for their " friends".

    It could be like the Hegelian Dialectic that is a principle and is used in marxism and describes a process of change.

    Thesis, antithesis and synthesis - having a starting point (thesis) what is and then the antithesis which is the change process & then the synthesis which is the outcome or the new thesis.

    In NI the tribes were/are split up along religious grounds and structures reflected this in lots of ways.You have or had institutionalised discrimination and you could look at the Anglo Irish Agreement in terms of that - freeing up the institutions etc Catholics in the police for instance. Then you get synthesis -which is the new order or thesis.

    The period we are going thru and the moment is antithesis and management theorists call this " black box" theory. Change takes time. You are not busing kids from the Falls Road to the Shankill schools -like you had in the southern US states. (And you still have the Peace Walls up in Belfast to keep the tribes apart .

    Now real change happens when people start going - we will send our kids to the better school or use the catholic/protestant doctor/solicitor because he is the best. Very much like happened in the US -except they are all the same colour.

    During this time people cling to what they know -like their public representatives etc.

    In the middle of this you have groups like the RIRA who do not want this change to occur because this change threatens its "world" and it does not want change.

    So you are not going to have happy clappy just yet because it takes time and the churches are all into the peace gig but the tribes and society have to catch up with the idea.

    So your C of I people could be the descendants of planters etc and you have all these layers too integrate.


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    #167
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    I would have thought that traditionally C of I people tended to vote UUP and Presbyterians for the DUP? :confused:

    That's what just wrote!! :confused: they traditionally didn't have anyone as they like the methodists are only starting to appear I'n large numbers now


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    #168
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    owenc wrote: »
    That's what just wrote!! :confused: they traditionally didn't have anyone as they like the methodists are only starting to appear I'n large numbers now

    No, you said they were starting to vote UUP, when as far as I know C of I folk generally would always have voted UUP and the Presbyterians for the DUP.


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    #169
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    No, you said they were starting to vote UUP, when as far as I know C of I folk generally would always have voted UUP and the Presbyterians for the DUP.

    The reason I said start was because they've only started appearing In the past ten years due to a mass conversion from catholisim (major seriously you've idea) and people from Belfast moving here :( traditionally the Presbyterians were the ones who voted for the uup but now they vote for the dup


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    #170
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    owenc wrote: »
    The reason I said start was because they've only started appearing In the past ten years due to a lot of catholic conversions and people from Belfast moving here :( traditionally the Presbyterians were the ones who voted for the uup but now they vote for the dup

    So who are you saying voted DUP in the past? Traditionally C of I people, in my experience, voted OUP/UUP not for extremists like the DUP.


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    #171
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    So who are you saying voted DUP in the past? Traditionally C of I people, in my experience, voted OUP/UUP not for extremists like the DUP.

    Not very many people Did it was only when the troubles occured that people started becoming more bitter and voting for them.. Edit: i am told that the old folk voted for the Protestant unionist party around here and that the uup wouldve been second choice hmmm


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    #172
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    As a good loyal subject of HRH Queen Elizabeth II, I watched the whole Royal Wedding yesterday and I was amused to see Peter Robinson amongst the guests - it sure is a long way from daubing slogans on a 'Protestant' school in Clontibret to being a guest at a Royal Wedding. :D

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Robinson_(politician)#Invasion_of_Clontibret


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    #173
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    As a good loyal subject of HRH Queen Elizabeth II, I watched the whole Royal Wedding yesterday and I was amused to see Peter Robinson amongst the guests - it sure is a long way from daubing slogans on a 'Protestant' school in Clontibret to being a guest at a Royal Wedding. :D

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Robinson_(politician)#Invasion_of_Clontibret

    Well don't you as a loyal subject mean HM Queen Elizabeth II - you've taken her down a rank!:p


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    #174
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Off topic discussion deleted.


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    #175
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    brianthebard wrote: »
    Off topic discussion deleted.

    Don't quite see how discussing the history of the English Reformation is off-topic but OK :)


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    #176
    Adrian009
    Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭Adrian009


    walrusgumble wrote: »
    A tad bit off topic, but genuine question

    I am well aware that throughout the irish revolutions, Protestants have played a major role in the republican/nationalist cause be it constitutionalism or by force...

    so,does anyone know of any accounts of people of the protestant faith of all social classes, who had family relations who had fought for Wolfe Tone (lets say for arguments sake, the foundation of modern Republicanism in this Statee) and other rebellions such as Emmets, Young Irelanders and Fenians or support nationalist politicans but later family became staunch unionists during say eg 1916-1945 and say during the troubles in the north? (imagine finding out, mad dog adair had a distance uncle who fought under eg robert emmet, that would be some fun!!!)

    the question i want to know it, if, say certain family members had originally being republican, what changed future families alligence?

    The first president of Sinn Fein and of the Ulster Unionists were cousions.


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