wired vs wireless alarm system

oldhead

koolkid wrote: »

You dont want to use new technology yet you post not to be afraid of it?? Do you feel you are making sense here??

wireless can be overcome

KoolKid

But you saying dont be afraid of new technology?????
Your really are contrdicting yourself...

Still no facts & figures though..
Do you honestly , (answer honestly now) believe you know better than the certification bodies who wrote the standards, the experts in the security & the insurance industry & the Guards in this matter.
If you are going to make sweeping statements that systems are less reliable & can be overcome you really need to back that up with some facts & figures. Otherwise you are just making yourself look silly.

fred funk }{

oldhead wrote: »

wireless can be overcome

I have never heard of anything close to that been done/tried and I have been around in this game a while . Thats not saying it can't be done though.
If someone wanted to get into your house that much I think it would be easier to knock on your door and put a gun to your face.

oldhead

koolkid wrote: »

But you saying dont be afraid of new technology?????
Your really are contrdicting yourself...

Still no facts & figures though..
Do you honestly , (answer honestly now) believe you know better than the certification bodies who wrote the standards, the experts in the security & the insurance industry & the Guards in this matter.
If you are going to make sweeping statements that systems are less reliable & can be overcome you really need to back that up with some facts & figures. Otherwise you are just making yourself look silly.

once a smartass always a smartass, wireless can be overcome, and i couldnt care less how i look, i never called myself an "EXPERT" MR. KNOW IT ALL if you ask me

KoolKid

Calling names really doesnt help your argument. (how childish)
You dont call yourself an expert yet you contradict those who do with no proof whatsoever.
You are obviousally right & everyone else must be wrong....:D

steifanc

koolkid wrote: »

But you saying don't be afraid of new technology?????
Your really are contrdicting yourself...

Still no facts & figures though..
Do you honestly , (answer honestly now) believe you know better than the certification bodies who wrote the standards, the experts in the security & the insurance industry & the Guards in this matter.
If you are going to make sweeping statements that systems are less reliable & can be overcome you really need to back that up with some facts & figures. Otherwise you are just making yourself look silly.

certification bodies, who the ISO ?
some one correct me if I'm wrong its a long time since i done quality !
the ISO model is a guideline for certification, i think its ISO that sets the requirements for certification, the company that is looking for certification sets a management model and agrees it, all ISO says is that your living up to your process model and you are being externally audited by the ISO19009 , ISO external auditing, again I'm not sure of the ISO number. so all that ISO says is you living up to what your company said you do , and the ISO are checking you.

as for you never heard of a wireless alarm being overcome, if you processed the know how to integrate your self to a wireless network , why would you bother with a house, i wouldn't think there are many burglars with degrees out there,
but the point is if someone really wanted to hijack a wireless house alarm , they could,

as for proof , search the web for convicted wireless network hackers,

oldhead

koolkid wrote: »

Calling names really doesnt help your argument. (how childish)
You dont call yourself an expert yet you contradict those who do with no proof whatsoever.
You are obviousally right & everyone else must be wrong....:D

Hahahahahaha give it a rest old man, i have read other threads regarding alarms and you have the same bad attitude in some of them, you always have to be right, and just a poor smartass to different users, how sad you are. Go play with wireless alarms and find out what is what.

steifanc

why don't you get the mod to post on the computer , or network threads
get an option from a programmer !

KoolKid

steifanc wrote: »

certification bodies, who the ISO ?
some one correct me if I'm wrong its a long time since i done quality !
the ISO model is a guideline for certification, i think its ISO that sets the requirements for certification, the company that is looking for certification sets a management model and agrees it, all ISO says is that your living up to your process model and you are being externally audited by the ISO , ISO external auditing, again I'm not sure of the ISO number. so all that ISO says is you living up to what your company said you do , and the ISO are checking you.

as for you never heard of a wireless alarm being overcome, if you processed the know how to integrate your self to a wireless network , why would you bother with a house, i wouldn't think there are many burglars with degrees out there,
but the point is if someone really wanted to hijack a wireless house alarm , they could,

as for proof , search the web for convicted wireless network hackers,

The Standard is EN50131 the certification bodies are NSAI etc.
The standard is a requirement not a recommendation.

altor

oldhead wrote: »

wireless can be overcome

they can but your alarm will activate by getting a jamming signal.. oldhead i think your way out of line here. this tread was started by a registered user looking for advice on what system to put in his house. all your contributing to this post is nothing you can back up, which to be honest is no use to anyone who wants proper advice. your the one by the way who call us experts but you still questioned everything that we have said.. at the end of the day if you want a wirefree or a wired alarm it up to you. we can only advise you here on our experience of installing both systems. yes both can be overcome if you have the knowledge and the time to do it, but that is not what we do for a living, we install the systems as designed by the manufacture to protect peoples homes and if you dont want that advice that is up to you..

steifanc

koolkid wrote: »

The Standard is EN50131 the certification bodies are NSAI etc.
The standard is a requirement not a recommendation.

its a requirment for certification by nasi, all standerds are recommendations,
you can install or produce a system without nasi certification,

NSAI certification is recognized world wide through a network of Mutual Recognition Agreements with other major certification bodies.

ISO 9001 has been the most popular management system standard in Ireland and internationally since it was first published in 1987 and it remains a major focus of activity. In recent years, management system standards have been introduced for the environment (ISO 14001 and I.S. 393) and health and safety (OHSAS 18001). Sector standards have been developed for food (ISO 22000 and BRC - Food and Packaging), telecommunications (TL 9000), aerospace (AS 9100 and AS 9120) and Medical Devices (ISO 13485). NSAI provides certification in each of these areas.

so nsai is an attribute to iso , falls into the same loop hole !

"they can but your alarm will activate by getting a jamming signal."
altor that would happen , there is ways around it, in signal manipulation.

as you said the user was looking for advice on what alarm to put in , IMO
both wired and wireless will suffice unless your keeping bullion in your basement

oldhead

altor wrote: »

they can but your alarm will activate by getting a jamming signal.. oldhead i think your way out of line here. this tread was started by a registered user looking for advice on what system to put in his house. all your contributing to this post is nothing you can back up, which to be honest is no use to anyone who wants proper advice. your the one by the way who call us experts but you still questioned everything that we have said.. at the end of the day if you want a wirefree or a wired alarm it up to you. we can only advise you here on our experience of installing both systems. yes both can be overcome if you have the knowledge and the time to do it, but that is not what we do for a living, we install the systems as designed by the manufacture to protect peoples homes and if you dont want that advice that is up to you..

Ahh correction you are once again wrong, (now why doest that suprise me) if you take the time to look back over the thread you will see that your fried KOOLKID called ye the EXPERTS,and not me, why in Gods name would i call ye experts. dont flatter yourself. my whole point to ye at the start of this thread was that a wireless system can be overcome, no more,no less. Ye said that it could not, now your saying that it can. why dont you make up your mind and obs it is up to the customer at the end of the as to what alarm they want to put in, it certainly not up to you.

oldhead

I think the P.S.A number is gone to their head,they seem to think it some kind of badge to be a smartass to other users

steifanc

just food for taught, or an analogy if you will,

if you had small kids sleeping at night, would you rather have a wired smoke alarm system or a wireless smoke alarm system ?

oldhead

steifanc wrote: »

just food for taught, or an analogy if you will,

if you had small kids sleeping at night, would you rather have a wired smoke alarm system or a wireless smoke alarm system ?

i would def have to go for the hard wired system, hands down, even if the cable gets burnt the alarm will still sound.

altor

oldhead wrote: »

Ahh correction you are once again wrong, (now why doest that suprise me) if you take the time to look back over the thread you will see that your fried KOOLKID called ye the EXPERTS,and not me, why in Gods name would i call ye experts. dont flatter yourself. my whole point to ye at the start of this thread was that a wireless system can be overcome, no more,no less. Ye said that it could not, now your saying that it can. why dont you make up your mind and obs it is up to the customer at the end of the as to what alarm they want to put in, it certainly not up to you.

point 1 oldhead your first post was about batteries having to be recharged
point 2 i never said it could not be overcome
point 3 i never called myself a expert, you did
point 4 i never said it was up to me what alarm a customer puts in there house
point 5 you where saying about a wired bell sounding better so i said put a wired bell on the wirefree panel.

altor

steifanc wrote: »

its a requirment for certification by nasi, all standerds are recommendations,
you can install or produce a system without nasi certification,

NSAI certification is recognized world wide through a network of Mutual Recognition Agreements with other major certification bodies.

ISO 9001 has been the most popular management system standard in Ireland and internationally since it was first published in 1987 and it remains a major focus of activity. In recent years, management system standards have been introduced for the environment (ISO 14001 and I.S. 393) and health and safety (OHSAS 18001). Sector standards have been developed for food (ISO 22000 and BRC - Food and Packaging), telecommunications (TL 9000), aerospace (AS 9100 and AS 9120) and Medical Devices (ISO 13485). NSAI provides certification in each of these areas.

so nsai is an attribute to iso , falls into the same loop hole !

"they can but your alarm will activate by getting a jamming signal."
altor that would happen , there is ways around it, in signal manipulation.

as you said the user was looking for advice on what alarm to put in , IMO
both wired and wireless will suffice unless your keeping bullion in your basement

for alarms you have to be certified to standard en50131, its a requirment for certification not a recommendation, there are requirements for putting in cables for the alarm too so maybe the customer might perfer a wired system.. both systems are up to standard en50131 but running cables have to be as well. its not just a mater of walking into someones house and running cables on skerting boards like use to happen. can you show me how to manipulate the signal ? i have seen them being jammed before but not manipulated.. as i said the alarm will activate in this even of it being jammed..

oldhead

altor wrote: »

point 1 oldhead your first post was about batteries having to be recharged
point 2 i never said it could not be overcome
point 3 i never called myself a expert, you did
point 4 i never said it was up to me what alarm a customer puts in there house
point 5 you where saying about a wired bell sounding better so i said put a wired bell on the wirefree panel.

soooo sad,you still cant read. if you would like me to highlight these points for you i will,i said changing not charging, Koolkid called ye EXPERTS, and i never said anything about a bell. soo sad

altor

sorry, my mistake.. highlight the other ones for me.. getting dark here

oldhead

why bother, im signing off now. this has gone on way to long. my original point was that wireless could be over come, that was it. i wish you well in your business in these trying times, hope all is going well. no hard feelings.
take care.

steifanc

altor wrote: »

for alarms you have to be certified to standard en50131, its a requirment for certification not a recommendation, there are requirements for putting in cables for the alarm too so maybe the customer might perfer a wired system.. both systems are up to standard en50131 but running cables have to be as well. its not just a mater of walking into someones house and running cables on skerting boards like use to happen. can you show me how to manipulate the signal ? i have seen them being jammed before but not manipulated.. as i said the alarm will activate in this even of it being jammed..

OK this is the last time I'm going over this, please read the ISO model ,
this whole certification arose was someone posed the question how could a system that is certified by this standards fail ,
all a standard is , is that the company preforms to what there standard states,notice the word there in the sentence,so they set the standards,
if someone certifies a car window as safety glass, it doesn't mean it wont cut you.
as for signal manipulation, if you have a genuine question as do your own bit of research i will gladly help you, as for showing you, schools out for the summer, dit are enrolling for 2009/2010 try electrical/electronic or mechatronic engineering they all cover the topic.

KoolKid

I think its time for a recap here .
Oldhead you first statement in this thread was that wireless is less secure.You have been asked numerous times for proof or facts to back up that statement . You still have not produced anything to back up that statement. Dispite at least 3 professional installers saying this has never happened you still rant on. Both wired & wireless systems can be the same grade so it is accepted by the Certification bodies, The Insurance industry & the Guards, yet you argue all these are wrong & you are right.
You then went on to compare wireless alarms to wireless speakers. totally off track
When people disagree with you or ask you to back up a statement you just become abusive insted of showing you know what you are talking about.
For some reason you state you cant discuss an alarm for a house without plans. When this was challanged you again become abusive.
You have been asked a couple of times do you install alarms or what qualifies you to make these clams. Again you refused to answer. Having an opinion is fine, no one has a problem with that. But your problem is you want to have your opinion but you get abusive if other peoples opinion disagrees with yours.

To Steifanc I would say you are clearly more qualified than me with regards to wirless networks & encryption etc. In theory yes anything is hackable but in reality it doesnt happen.It probobly has been done on a bench in certin conditions. If it was a security issue to be of concern we in the industry would be aware of it.
WRT certification the only option for an uncertified system now is a self install. Everything else must conform to EN50131.
Regarding your question with wired & wireless smoke alarms with children. I can honestly say 100% I would feel exactly as safe with both. Again if they are connected to an alarm both will conform to EN50131
Back to Oldhead who then goes on to to tell me I should trust new technology.
This is really amazing considering wireless is the latest technology availible.
Again when this was questioned it was answered with childish name calling.
When Ator asked you to read back on something your reply was "couldn't be arsed"
So all in all you have not sensibly put up one decent argument in this thread. And in typical behaviour when you realise you have lost the argument you run away.

paddy147

How much roughly for a decent wireless alarm system for a 2 bed mid terrace house.

Dont want something mad just a decent and reasonably priced system that will do the job.

KoolKid

Could be anywhere from €1400 upwards.

paddy147

koolkid wrote: »

Could be anywhere from €1400 upwards.

me arse it is.:rolleyes:

Eircom Phonewatch gave me a quote of 1000 all in for their wire free alarm system.

Looking around 1st before commiting to anything.

KoolKid

paddy147 wrote: »

me arse it is.:rolleyes:

Eircom Phonewatch gave me a quote of 1000 all in for their wire free alarm system.

Looking around 1st before commiting to anything.

Eircom will also quote you for the bare minimum & charge well for extras.
They will also tie you to a contract for monitoring & insist on a service & maintenance contract. Their cheap quotes do not even include an external bell. Shop around by all means but compare like with like before posting commentls like that.

altor

steifanc wrote: »

as for signal manipulation, if you have a genuine question as do your own bit of research i will gladly help you

This is covered in clause 8.4 of the EN50131 standard 2006..
all devices on a wirefree system must report back to the panel within 100 seconds.
as for manipulation,a signal transmitted by a transmitter is subjected to reshaping in such a manner that its reproducibility and/or transmissibility are/is exacerbated, but also in such a manner that the reshaping can be detected in a detector in the receiver. In this way, the signal transmission is protected against the possibility of a deliberately short range between the transmitter and receiver being enlarged by manipulation by an intermediate transmitter/receiver.

KoolKid

I think at the end of the day all they are arguing about here is in theory.
If you want to base your security system on the chances of James Bond or the Mission Impossible crew breaking into your house then wired or wireless really makes no difference now does it?

altor

I agree.. If someone wants to break in they will.. All we can do is advise people on what we know from experience installing alarms. Its up to them what they do after that

bushy...

altor wrote: »

This is covered in clause 8.4 of the EN50131 standard 2006..
all devices on a wirefree system must report back to the panel within 100 seconds.
as for manipulation,a signal transmitted by a transmitter is subjected to reshaping in such a manner that its reproducibility and/or transmissibility are/is exacerbated, but also in such a manner that the reshaping can be detected in a detector in the receiver. In this way, the signal transmission is protected against the possibility of a deliberately short range between the transmitter and receiver being enlarged by manipulation by an intermediate transmitter/receiver.

Basically if the signal suddenly increases , it will trigger. Just makes it a bit more secure.

Tbh , the worst thing that could be done is present it as "uncrackable" -

some people with serious skill and the time see stuff like that as "chewing gum for the brain"

They may not even "crack" it the easiest/most obvious way even though they could.

Chances are it was already defeated before it hit the market here