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wired vs wireless alarm system

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    #122
    steifanc
    Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭steifanc


    selection criteria wireless wired


    cost of panel 1 0
    cost of contacts 1 0
    cost of cabling 0 1
    installation time 0 1

    complexity of controls 1 0
    need for batteries in sensors 1 0
    need for building to be pre wired 0 1


    Security

    can alarm be accessed outside the building 1 0
    can cables be tampered with 0 1
    level of difficulty to breach 1 0
    rouge signal interference, close freq 1 0


    false alarm triggering 1 0
    long distance runs 1 0
    diy installation 0 1







    get it started
    shurly ye can come up with more than me !
    unfortunality i couldnt post a screen print ,it wouldnt paste , hence the joumbled up copy and paste, take the first digit as wireless


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    #123
    bushy...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭bushy...


    You need tags for it , the forum stuff seems to be designed to tidy up posts as much as it can


    steifanc wrote: »
    selection criteria
                                                                   wireless	wired				

cost of panel	                                                    1	0	
cost of contacts	                                                    1	0	
cost of cabling	                                                    0	1	
installation time	                                                    0	1	

complexity of controls	                                       1	0	
need for batteries in sensors	                                      1	0	
need for building to be pre wired                                  0          1	


Security			

can alarm be accessed outside the building	             1	0	
can cables be tampered with	                          0	1
level of difficulty to breach	                                       1	0
rouge signal interference, close freq	                          1	0


false alarm triggering	                                       1	0
long distance runs	                                                    1	0
diy installation	                                                    0	1





    get it started
    shurly ye can come up with more than me !
    unfortunality i couldnt post a screen print ,it wouldnt paste , hence the joumbled up copy and paste, take the first digit as wireless


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    #124
    screwlox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭screwlox


    Some good arguments being made from both sides guys....

    But at the end of the day, I still maintain 'one is as secure as the other', when it is armed - and maintained properly.

    The biggest downside to W/L is battery replacement....:(


    Someone mentioned in a previous post that Visonic was dirt....:confused:
    Untrue. Visonic SENSORS are dirt - their control panels are excellent quality radio products - far better than anything I've ever seen (and I have 18 different types of W/L systems stored away, that I tested myself over the years as they were launched - Scantronic, Rockonet, Crow, Daitum, Siemens etc. etc.)
    Installers are 'nervous' of W/L systems, where as I will 'pull them to bits' before I ever fit one. I knew from day one that visonic had 'issues' with some of their sensors - and still do (even though they are in denial) - however their radio control panel cannot be faulted whatsoever...
    Some of their stuff is HALF the price of G.E. and twice as good.


    Anyways, how the heck do I subscribe to this thread??? Mods?
    I don't see an option on the page any where??


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    #125
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,591 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    screwlox
    I still maintain 'one is as secure as the other', when it is armed - and maintained properly.
    and installed properly! The standard of installation is the most important part IMHO


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    #126
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    screwlox wrote: »


    Anyways, how the heck do I subscribe to this thread??? Mods?
    I don't see an option on the page any where??
    At the top of the first post on the page Select Thread Tools & select subscribe from the drop down list


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    #127
    screwlox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭screwlox


    Cheers, Kid! :p


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    #128
    steifanc
    Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭steifanc


    But at the end of the day, I still maintain 'one is as secure as the other', when it is armed - and maintained properly


    yet the data presents a slightly different picture ?


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    #129
    screwlox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22 ✭screwlox


    Data???:confused:

    All I see is 1 0 0 1 0 0 1
    0 1 1 0 0 00 !!

    Makes no sense to me....:o

    Yes, I still maintain Wireless to be more secure...


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    #130
    steifanc
    Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭steifanc


    screwlox wrote: »
    Data???:confused:

    All I see is 1 0 0 1 0 0 1
    0 1 1 0 0 00 !!

    Makes no sense to me....:o

    Yes, I still maintain Wireless to be more secure...

    i wouldn't expect it to make any sense to you unless you were in that line of work , thats code ,and is out of context to the security of the systems.
    thats code for the 10 x system , i posted it because you had the illusion that a rolling code doesn't repeat its self .

    as for the two systems. as was discussed in the course of this thread.
    a wired system has security with in its self if its off grid "and not connected to any thing that can be used to infiltrate its security protocol . this being the scenario you have to be inside the building to tamper with the alarm.

    a wireless transmitting signal can be harnessed outside the parameter of the building. with the right equipment and the right person the signal carrier can be manipulated.
    by no means is it an easy thing to do , but it can be done.
    and i have read the manufactures outlook on harnessing signals and how the claim to protect there system.
    which would work , but if you new what you were doing you wouldn't be taking the most straight forward approach .


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    #131
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭altor


    steifanc wrote: »
    i wouldn't expect it to make any sense to you unless you were in that line of work , thats code ,and is out of context to the security of the systems.
    thats code for the 10 x system , i posted it because you had the illusion that a rolling code doesn't repeat its self .

    as for the two systems. as was discussed in the course of this thread.
    a wired system has security with in its self if its off grid "and not connected to any thing that can be used to infiltrate its security protocol . this being the scenario you have to be inside the building to tamper with the alarm.

    a wireless transmitting signal can be harnessed outside the parameter of the building. with the right equipment and the right person the signal carrier can be manipulated.
    by no means is it an easy thing to do , but it can be done.
    and i have read the manufactures outlook on harnessing signals and how the claim to protect there system.
    which would work , but if you new what you were doing you wouldn't be taking the most straight forward approach .

    hi steifanc,
    is this why the standards where brought in that the sensor has to report to the panel every 100 seconds, or do you think in your own opinion it can be done in less than this time ?

    www.altor.ie



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    #132
    steifanc
    Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭steifanc


    altor wrote: »
    hi steifanc,
    is this why the standards where brought in that the sensor has to report to the panel every 100 seconds, or do you think in your own opinion it can be done in less than this time ?

    hi altor.
    im not familiar with the standards, I'm relaying on you guys for that information, if it is seconds it seems very long to me. that would leave 100 seconds for some one to enter the zone undetected . may be its Milli seconds ?

    the scan cycle can be altered all right. the can scan that fast that you would need another computer just to detect the speed .
    the faster the CPU , the more expensive it becomes . and like the design of most things the engineer is strangled with a tight budget, and gets the best preforming chip the can for the money.
    with that being the case you have to find a balance between speed and process capability. not good being fast and not able to put the information together.
    so can it be done in less time then its already doing, ?
    with out up grading the CPU, and taking that the engineer has optimized the performance of the chip . the balance between speed and performance has been achieved . so speeding it up will slow something else down.

    is that the info you were looking for ?


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    #133
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭altor


    steifanc wrote: »
    hi altor.
    im not familiar with the standards, I'm relaying on you guys for that information, if it is seconds it seems very long to me. that would leave 100 seconds for some one to enter the zone undetected . may be its Milli seconds ?

    the scan cycle can be altered all right. the can scan that fast that you would need another computer just to detect the speed .
    the faster the CPU , the more expensive it becomes . and like the design of most things the engineer is strangled with a tight budget, and gets the best preforming chip the can for the money.
    with that being the case you have to find a balance between speed and process capability. not good being fast and not able to put the information together.
    so can it be done in less time then its already doing, ?
    with out up grading the CPU, and taking that the engineer has optimized the performance of the chip . the balance between speed and performance has been achieved . so speeding it up will slow something else down.

    is that the info you were looking for ?

    no, its 100 seconds. i dont know how the blocking and manipulation of the signals work but with regard to the panel it gives off a tamper situation and activates the alarm. i know hkcs new panel will be relaying the signals back to the panel from the sensors every 20 seconds which i hope will cover this problem in the event it ever happens.

    www.altor.ie



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    #134
    steifanc
    Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭steifanc


    altor wrote: »
    no, its 100 seconds. i dont know how the blocking and manipulation of the signals work but with regard to the panel it gives off a tamper situation and activates the alarm. i know hkcs new panel will be relaying the signals back to the panel from the sensors every 20 seconds which i hope will cover this problem in the event it ever happens.

    I'm surprised the cycle is that slow, just goes to show you the level of components there using.

    I'm sure the panel is set up that if the signal changes it will activate the tamper.its not really the route i would go down if i was trying to by pass the system.

    from what your saying the senors are using an open loop control , which isn't a great way of doing it. but i can understand why its done like that if your Dependant on battery's. so the senor only activates when in fault condition.
    and the panel is scanning every 100 seconds to talk to the senor making sure its operational.

    this being the case it would make the panel less Sucre than i had original taught.


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    #135
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭altor


    they will have to come up with something to make it more secure, how fast can it be manipulated in your opinion ? is hkc going the right way making it 20 seconds or should they try for less ?

    www.altor.ie



  • Options
    #136
    steifanc
    Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭steifanc


    altor wrote: »
    they will have to come up with something to make it more secure, how fast can it be manipulated in your opinion ? is hkc going the right way making it 20 seconds or should they try for less ?

    i wouldn't think there too worried , having the skills to do it and wasting them trying to crack alarm code is a bit childish.

    the wireless system using a 10 bit encrypted code.
    your fire wall on your computer uses a 128 bit encrypted code.
    128 bit codes can be broken in under a min.

    with the scan cycle at 100SEC there is a more simpler way of breaching the system. thats over a min ,thats really bad . shorting this would most likely eliminate this.


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    #137
    druidhill
    Registered Users Posts: 200 ✭✭druidhill


    Hi all,

    After searching this forum, I read with interest this old thread and as it is so old, I wondered what contributors' current opinions are for the points thrown up for discussion.

    Particularly interested in the current quality of wireless systems nowadays (e.g. have vulnerability issues been improved or addressed in any way since).

    I am looking to install a system in an old house so wireless is the neatest and (I'm guessing probably) cheapest as it is not pre-wired.

    Brand recommendations from the professionals for sensors and control panels would be good too.

    Thanks in advance.


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    #138
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    For a fully wireless system we use and recommend GSD and Risco Agility or Risco LightSYS 2.
    Reliability has come a long way over the years and so has the features.
    All good systems now offer apps giving you alerts and remote access to the system.
    There is some interesting information on these features in this thread
    http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057394782/11/#post95550399


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    #139
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,591 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    With any modern system I would have no concerns in terms of vulnerability.
    It sounds like running in cables in their example would not be cost effective or practical. If this premesis was prewired I would not go for the wireless option.


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    #140
    Stoner
    Registered Users Posts: 10,952 ✭✭✭✭Stoner


    Druidhill

    There is a whole forum for this now. I'll let this sit and move it there later today


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    #141
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,591 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Thread moved.


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    #142
    altor
    Registered Users Posts: 11,715 ✭✭✭✭altor


    druidhill wrote: »
    Hi all,

    After searching this forum, I read with interest this old thread and as it is so old, I wondered what contributors' current opinions are for the points thrown up for discussion.

    Particularly interested in the current quality of wireless systems nowadays (e.g. have vulnerability issues been improved or addressed in any way since).

    I am looking to install a system in an old house so wireless is the neatest and (I'm guessing probably) cheapest as it is not pre-wired.

    Brand recommendations from the professionals for sensors and control panels would be good too.

    Thanks in advance.

    I would also throw the HKC Quantum 70 into the list of systems provided.
    With the added ability to add extra wired devices, shocks and contacts from the wire free devices from the sensors inputs.
    Systems used today offer more protection options using two way detectors also.

    www.altor.ie



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    #143
    homeguru
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭homeguru


    Wirefree are just as good use a siemens GE(aritech) or (HKC) HKC prob more user friendly only reason wirefree are slow at coming to the fore is all these companies have large hardwired selling divisions that are affected. Visionic is ok but the above are better and price wise not much difference put it this way all these devices will likely be wire free in the future.


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    #144
    druidhill
    Registered Users Posts: 200 ✭✭druidhill


    Thanks for all replies - it is great to get some first-hand advice with this.


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    #145
    Pegasus177
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭Pegasus177


    Anyone have some up to date costs of getting a un-monitored alarm fitted in a pre-wired home? Ball park figures will do

    Thanks


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    #146
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    It would vary a lot depending on the number of accessible windows & doors . Could go anywhere from €700-€1500. Your best bet is get a few licenced installers out for a free survey & quote.
    They will give you a written system design proposal. That will make it easy to compare like with like against different systems.


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    #147
    Pegasus177
    Registered Users Posts: 44 ✭Pegasus177


    KoolKid wrote: »
    It would vary a lot depending on the number of accessible windows & doors . Could go anywhere from €700-€1500. Your best bet is get a few licenced installers out for a free survey & quote.
    They will give you a written system design proposal. That will make it easy to compare like with like against different systems.

    I was filling out quote requests online and one just called me back in the time since I posted my question as he was working late.
    He quoted me 600 so I guess that's not a bad price if 700 is the norm low end. Thanks for your reply.


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    #148
    kub
    Registered Users Posts: 6,546 ✭✭✭kub


    Pegasus177 wrote:
    I was filling out quote requests online and one just called me back in the time since I posted my question as he was working late. He quoted me 600 so I guess that's not a bad price if 700 is the norm low end. Thanks for your reply.


    There is such as thing as being too cheap as well so please be careful


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    #149
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Pegasus177 wrote: »
    I was filling out quote requests online and one just called me back in the time since I posted my question as he was working late.
    He quoted me 600 so I guess that's not a bad price if 700 is the norm low end. Thanks for your reply.


    Its really down to what you are being specced for. Ideally all accessible windows & doors with shocks & contacts & a couple of PiRs.
    Also make sure you are buying the equipment not just renting it.In which case the €500-€600 is just a very expensive installation fee.:eek:


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