Teachers call for a day of industrial action

Alcatel

By the by, thought this would be interesting (from a parallel conversation on the topic): http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html The TUI's info on salary scales.

Not a bad one, to start off on that kind of money out of college when the average industrial was 33,000 euro a year before this recession kicked off.

ixoy

Matthew Fit Butterfly wrote: »

Yes on the higher taxation for ALL solution. The Public Sector is not and never was a "profit" making initiative. Your comparison with a loss making company doesn't work. Care to put a margin on saving a life?

Oh here we go again - constantly trotting out the "save a life" line. Do you honestly think all public servants are front line and making a valuable contribution? Are all teachers worthy?

And the comparison isn't false - the government has to balance the books. It can't currently - so we can either increase the income (through taxation), decrease the outgoing costs (through cuts) or a mixture.

How do teachers propose to balance the books?

They do not have access to the social welfare pension and a state job pension. It is completely different to you or I paying towards the Old Age Pension and our private pensions. They pay to both for a single pension. Get the facts straight.

It's differnet, but not completely so - if they just paid PRSI they wouldn't get the pension they will get. So they're paying a supplementary fee on top of that to get the very good pension they will finally get.
As to the levy... well it's not quite a pay cut in the sense of how it effects those retired but it's an effective one on those currently working.

I would be interested in knowing how many teachers are due increments this year?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Alcatel wrote: »

By the by, thought this would be interesting (from a parallel conversation on the topic): http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html The TUI's info on salary scales.

Not a bad one, to start off on that kind of money out of college when the average industrial was 33,000 euro a year before this recession kicked off.

We're not talking average industrial workers here. These are graduates with 3 or 4 years degree study plue their H-dip. There were plenty of graduates who turned their noses up at a starting salary of €33k over the past 5 years. I had difficulty getting people when offfering €40k only 2 years ago.
How quickly we forget!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

ixoy wrote: »

Oh here we go againIt's differnet, but not completely so - if they just paid PRSI they wouldn't get the pension they will get. So they're paying a supplementary fee on top of that to get the very good pension they will finally get.

I'll leave it at this, as I think this discussion is going in circles. The newer entrants are paying the usual teachers basic 7% pensions contribution (self financing by the way) plus PRSI for no additional reward. Some civil service workers pay no pensions contribution whatsoever and the reduced PRSI contribution of 2.9%. Why do both get hit with a Pensions Levy?

Don't get caught up in all the hype, as there are still good paying jobs ,conditions and indeed pensions in the Private sector - thank goodness. We lept into a very low tax economy over the past 15 years and we have to get back to a rate of tax that makes this sustainable. Do you not recall paying tax at 51% - maybe not but I do. Did you have a mortage interest rate of 14.5% - I did. We simply got caught up in the bubble and we have to get back to some semblance of normality. Begrudgery, sterio-typing, and hitting out at other workers won't achieve anything.

ixoy

Matthew Fit Butterfly wrote: »

ixoy wrote: »

I'll leave it at this, as I think this discussion is going in circles. The newer entrants are paying the usual teachers basic 7% pensions contribution (self financing by the way) plus PRSI for no additional reward. Some civil service workers pay no pensions contribution whatsoever and the reduced PRSI contribution of 2.9%. Why do both get hit with a Pensions Levy?

Yes but those civil servants are on a lower pay scale than the others to balance that out.
As to no additonal reward - pay cuts aren't rewards! Government can't afford to reward people right now due to its many cock ups. You're right to be angry with them but I'd really like to hear alternate ideas on how to get the money to rectify this (and not just "tax the rich").

Don't get caught up in all the hype, as there are still good paying jobs ,conditions and indeed pensions in the Private sector - thank goodness.

There are - but if you lose them it's hard to get another. That's one of the problems.

We simply got caught up in the bubble and we have to get back to some semblance of normality.

Agreed - but surely that means adjustments for many, including teachers? I'm honestly puzzled as to why they should feel they should be exempt from it all bar taxes (which we all pay) when the funds aren't there. Sure be furious with the government and the banks but I'd like to see concrete proposals for tackling it other than placard waving and marching.

10000maniacs

Alcatel wrote: »

By the by, thought this would be interesting (from a parallel conversation on the topic): http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html The TUI's info on salary scales.

Not a bad one, to start off on that kind of money out of college when the average industrial was 33,000 euro a year before this recession kicked off.

Looking at those rates, there won't be a lot of people looking at the teachers plight with a sympathetic eye.
Also going out on strike using their students as pawns in their bargaining negotiations will just re-enforce the view that they have nothing but contempt for their responsibilities.

T-K-O

Matthew Fit Butterfly wrote: »

I'll leave it at this, as I think this discussion is going in circles. The newer entrants are paying the usual teachers basic 7% pensions contribution (self financing by the way) plus PRSI for no additional reward. Some civil service workers pay no pensions contribution whatsoever and the reduced PRSI contribution of 2.9%. Why do both get hit with a Pensions Levy?

Don't get caught up in all the hype, as there are still good paying jobs ,conditions and indeed pensions in the Private sector - thank goodness. We lept into a very low tax economy over the past 15 years and we have to get back to a rate of tax that makes this sustainable. Do you not recall paying tax at 51% - maybe not but I do. Did you have a mortage interest rate of 14.5% - I did. We simply got caught up in the bubble and we have to get back to some semblance of normality. Begrudgery, sterio-typing, and hitting out at other workers won't achieve anything.

and striking will help even less.

T-K-O

10000maniacs wrote: »

Looking at those rates, there won't be a lot of people looking at the teachers plight with a sympathetic eye.
Also going out on strike using their students as pawns in their bargaining negotiations will just re-enforce the view that they have nothing but contempt for their responsibilities.

Exactly - the teachers waste so much money, their congress is a glorified piss up that they get expenses towards, they get paid ridiculous money for doing anything for the teachers union.

Make them work the summer months and see how they react.

Alcatel

Matthew Fit Butterfly wrote: »

We're not talking average industrial workers here. These are graduates with 3 or 4 years degree study plue their H-dip. There were plenty of graduates who turned their noses up at a starting salary of €33k over the past 5 years. I had difficulty getting people when offfering €40k only 2 years ago.
How quickly we forget!

"Average industrial wage" accounts the lot of us PAYE souls, from the 18,000PA minimum wagers to the managing directors, and people with degrees in between.

A graduated teacher is going to be in the 22 - 25 year range, ish, starting just shy of average ain't bad, and you've got a predictable career ladder, an extra 1k a year for a few years.

Let's not over emphasize how much they're worth, for their reduced working year to boot.

T-K-O

T-K-O wrote: »

Exactly - the teachers waste so much money, their congress is a glorified piss up that they get expenses towards, they get paid ridiculous money for doing anything for the teachers union.

Make them work the summer months and see how they react.

You would think they won the right to be a teacher in a fecking raffle. It was their decision and anybody could make the choice to be a teacher. I have a lot of teachers in my family and its not an easy job and I could never see my self teaching(maybe lecturing in a university but not teaching secondary or primary school) A teacher will never make massive money their wages are there is be seen from day one where as some one in private sector can end up getting prompted to very high positions making big money but take the risk of not having job security.

Teachers have not caused the recession in this country, the government are to blame along with some of the top bankers(not bankers in general, I'm also sick of people giving out about bankers in general) and some property developers.

If a minister, a developer and a bank CEO killed someone would you be looking at sending a teacher to jail for their crime as this in my opinion is what people are saying.

ntlbell

Micheal Quick Lavatory wrote: »

You would think they won the right to be a teacher in a fecking raffle. It was their decision and anybody could make the choice to be a teacher. I have a lot of teachers in my family and its not an easy job and I could never see my self teaching(maybe lecturing in a university but not teaching secondary or primary school) A teacher will never make massive money their wages are there is be seen from day one where as some one in private sector can end up getting prompted to very high positions making big money but take the risk of not having job security.

I dunno what you call massive but after a few years taken into account they only work about 42 weeks or less a year you can quickly make a grand a week you work, it's hardly "bad" money.

jmayo

Micheal Quick Lavatory wrote: »

They are perfectly entitled to go on strike and they should. Teachers never made the big money in the good times and now that times are bad they are expected to support the country. Feck off should be their answer. Why should they be expected to dig into their pockets. Im sick to the teeth of people complaining about teachers, nurses etc not accepting being robbed by the government. My Mother is a nurse and Dad is a teacher and you wouldnt believe the amount of money that is being taken off them with all the new levy's etc. Strike away I say.

And you wouldn't believe the amount of money being taken off people that don't have the luxury of working for the state :rolleyes:

Last night on TV they interviewed teacher whose hubby works as bus driver for Bus Eireann/Dublin Bus and she was complaining she will probably have to pay for kids to go to college.
Then she says she will have to put money aside for two lads 12/13 or some such ages and that she had been hoping to retire in 7/8years.
She looked about 50ish and she hopes to retire with nice guaranteed pension, not forgetting the old 1.5 times salary and that the state will allow her this and pay for her kids college :rolleyes:

Perhaps she should look up how pensions for private sevtor workers are doing, retire at 60 me ar**, we will be looking at retiring at 70 plus.

Micheal Quick Lavatory wrote: »

I used the wrong words there I didnt mean social welfare officers, I was referring to other groups who work with the disabled, the old, and mentally ill etc who are not nurses or doctors.

Except they don't bother providing services out of normal office hours as was found out by family in Wexford area last year :rolleyes:

Srameen wrote: »

Yes on the higher taxation for ALL solution. The Public Sector is not and never was a "profit" making initiative. Your comparison with a loss making company doesn't work. Care to put a margin on saving a life?

From my experience a fair few of the employees of the HSE don't put much value on life either.
Now before people go crazy there are some wonderful caring people in the HSE who give their all to make sick and dying people feel better in the face of their problems.
But there are a lot of inept, lazy, incompetents who have actually cost lives of people.
Has anything ever been done about getting them out or is it always labelled another systemic failure ?

Now before we continue discussing this topic further can you please wait while I get my violin restrung, the strings have been worn out playign a lament for the hardworking public servants.

IMHO for every nurse, junior doctor, guard, teacher, ambulance driver, fire brigade officer that works damm hard and that gives a damm about their patients/clients, they are carrying a couple of useless public servants on their backs.
Look at the total employment numbers of the sector.

gurramok

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0415/education.html

"Primary school teachers are to engage in rolling industrial action from September"

Why not June, July or August?

Their agenda is disruption despite their saying otherwise, they don't give a fluck about the kids but their own pockets.

irish_bob

id like to respond to the poster who thinks nurses need a payrise , apart from because every nurse who has ever put on a white hat is florence nightingale reborn , tell me , why should we increase the wages of europes highest paid nurses who presently live in europes worsts performing economy
the cost of living is falling , wages are falling , seriously , why would we give nurses a payrise , it couldnt perhaps be that my suspicions of nurses in this country being sacred cows are true , could it

im just curious is all

ejmaztec

irish_bob wrote: »

id like to respond to the poster who thinks nurses need a payrise , apart from because every nurse who has ever put on a white hat is florence nightingale reborn , tell me , why should we increase the wages of europes highest paid nurses who presently live in europes worsts performing economy
the cost of living is falling , wages are falling , seriously , why would we give nurses a payrise , it couldnt perhaps be that my suspicions of nurses in this country being sacred cows are true , could it

im just curious is all

Sorry, retracted - wrong country.:(

dodgyme

Matthew Fit Butterfly wrote: »

We're not talking average industrial workers here. These are graduates with 3 or 4 years degree study plue their H-dip. There were plenty of graduates who turned their noses up at a starting salary of €33k over the past 5 years. I had difficulty getting people when offfering €40k only 2 years ago.
How quickly we forget!

dont know what planet you were interviewing people on but I know of two areas (civil engineering and IT) where graduates were starting on between 28-30k two years ago. They might have got higher salaries elsewhere but the pressure would maybe have been more in terms of the jobs I guess, but the positions were filled so the salary was acceptable. However they would be let go after 6 months if they didnt perform unlike joe soap useless teacher, there for life and getting an average salary of 60k. I have degrees and postgrads but I dont use the word 'service' when talking about the years I have put in. I am only as good as the last job.

spade

The idea that teachers are hard done by is a nonsense - guaranteed pensions, long holidays and very well paid in comparison to their counterparts elsewhere http://ronanlyons.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/tackling-the-thorny-issue-of-teachers-pay/

The idea of taking action in September simply infuriates me! They have 3 long months to spend on strike if they want, why do it at the expense of the children????

spank_inferno

spade wrote: »

The idea of taking action in September simply infuriates me! They have 3 long months to spend on strike if they want, why do it at the expense of the children????

Because the well being of children doesnt even appear on the radar of the teachers unions. When has it ever??

gurramok

Thank you spade for that. Now, can we see the teacher supporters defend their pay now?

jmayo

gurramok wrote: »

Thank you spade for that. Now, can we see the teacher supporters defend their pay now?

They can't because they are back at work after their two weeks off

NinjaTruncs

Why do the teachers bring up paying PRSI like they are the only ones who pay it? PRSI also doesn't only just go towards their pension like they love implying it does.

I also pay a private sector pension levy, it's called my pension contribution, granted i pay 5% which is a little lower than what the average PS worker is paying, but my pension isn't guaranteed by my employer, I'd gladly pay more if i knew it was going to be secure.