Let the people of Tramore elect Mayor!

Jim_Are_Great

Anyone have any update on these things?

Jim_Are_Great

Sorry for double post, but saw this in the Munster. Didn't know one of the petitions went "missing"! Very shady.

Gulamugas

no prizes for guessing who took tha - i mentioned no names

Sully

CONTROVERSY over what is seen as a ‘U-turn’ by the Fine Gael dominated Tramore Town Council over who should be Mayor was gathering momentum as we went to press last night.

Over 200 people signed a petition claiming they were let down and a mockery was made of their democratic rights following the June 5 local elections.

Added to the allegations of a “U-turn” Fine Gael found itself in further hot water on Monday when the shop owner who facilitated the taking up of the petition claimed that she felt pressured to defend herself.

That petition will be formally handed in to the Civic Offices, in Tramore, today (Tuesday), and the matter is expected to be raised at tonight’s meeting of the Town Council.

In the past week newly elected Town Councillor, student Tom Raine, called to Red Lane to ‘borrow’ the petition so that it could be examined by his party colleagues.

When contacted by the Waterford News & Star Catherine Keighery the owner of Red Lane at The Cross, said she was taken by surprise and handed it over.

“Cllr. Raine was argumentative with me and everything about the petition was apparently wrong from its wording to practically the paper it was written on,” said the shop owner.

After an hour the petition was returned. “I was sorry that I was talked into handing it over at all because the people who signed it were disadvantaged,” Catherine Keighery said.

Claiming that she has no political affiliation and no interest or knowledge of politics Catherine told the Waterford News & Star that she and hundreds of others had been led to believe that the five who received the highest number of votes in the election would get their turn of being Mayor of the Town.
Click Here!

“Our votes were based on the acceptance, by the old Town Council, of a motion by former councillor James McCartan. We were clearly aware of the McCartan principals and that influenced our votes,” she said.

While facilitating the petition Ms. Keighery said that she did not canvass signatures. She did not even draw attention to it. “My customers saw it on the counter and decided to sign it,” she said.

At the first meeting of the new Council in mid June a pact was formed between the four Fine Gael Councillors, Ann Marie Power. Lola O’Sullivan, Maxine Keoghan, Tom Raine and Labour’s Paddy O’Callaghan.

With a majority on the nine-seater Council the poll topper, Independent Joe Conway was frozen out not just in the Mayoral election but he has also been excluded from all of the subcommittees for the next five years.

The only ‘outsiders’ to be given jobs were Fianna Fáil’s Joe O’Shea and Independent Blaise Hannigan. Cllr. Conway will attend the annual conference of the AMAI but at his own expense.

Speaking to the Waterford News & Star as we went to press Cllr. Tom Raine said that he was taken by surprise at the allegation that he was argumentative to the local shop owner.

He said, “We were just interested in how the petition was worded and who or what it was about. I called to the shop and asked, politely, to borrow the petition and was given it. I am very surprised. I was chatting and was in no way aggressive,” he said.

Source: http://www.waterford-news.ie/news/story/?trs=mhausneycw&cat=news

Might be the "missing" petition? From what I know of Tom, that type of attitude would be unusual. A ticket inspector (cork chap) on the bus to Tramore today was asking me about all this and even said that a first time councillor, young and from what he saw/read about him it seems very unusual.

Whatever about not being a mayor - not giving him other jobs seems unfair.

Sully

Tramore Mayoral pact rancour rumbles on
Saturday, July 11th, 2009

by Dermot Keyes

Tension among Tramore’s Town Councillors is set to linger over the summer after stern words were again exchanged regarding the Fine Gael/Labour pact which one Councillor described as ‘a breach of faith’.

Speaking at Tuesday night’s meeting, Fine Gael’s Anne Marie Power launched a stinging attack on Independent Councillor Joe Conway, whom, she claimed, had “vilified” her party through comments made to the print media.

Regarding the different positions which Cllr Conway held in relation to pacts at Town and County Council level, Cllr Power accused Cllr Conway of “deliberately withholding the truth from the people of Tramore”.

Cllr Power said that Cllr Conway had “purposely non-disclosed the truth” of his discussions with the Fine Gael group in relation to pact negotiations, querying: “are you totally against pacts?”

Reflecting on the tempestuous conclusion to Tuesday’s meeting, Cllr Conway stated: “A few facts were torched in the sulphurous arena of the Council Chamber.”

Cllr Conway asserted that at no time had he concealed the negotiating positions he had taken with Fine Gael at both Town and County Council level following the June 5th election.

And having asked Cllr Conway to withdraw comments which he had made since the formation of the new pact in Tramore, Cllr Power, unsurprisingly, didn’t get the response she was looking for.

“I heard your request with interest but I’m not in the slightest way inclined to withdraw what I said,” the Tramore poll-topper stated.

“The vast majority of the people that I have met in the last few weeks would agree with what I said. People are very disgusted with what has happened.”

The debate’s origins are rooted in a unanimous vote taken by the previous Council in April that during the newly elected Council’s term, the five highest vote earners would each serve as Mayor.

This vote, now referred to as ‘The McCartan Principles’ in recognition of former Councillor Jimmy McCartan who proposed the system, was seconded by Cllr Power and also supported by Cllrs O’Callaghan and Lola O’Sullivan.

But come last month’s inaugural meeting of new Council, all three adopted a new position, given the Council’s new composition, which saw Fine Gael and Labour’s combined number coming to five seats out of nine.

The source of much public disquiet was channelled through a petition, signed by approximately 300 locals, which was handed into Council offices before Tuesday’s meeting.

Seeking to close the book on the issue, Mayor Paddy O’Callaghan ruled any debate on the petition out of order; informing Councillors that he’d be sending the document onto the Department of the Environment.

Reading from the petition, Mayor O’Callaghan dismissed the claim that the Fine Gael/Labour pact had “made a mockery” of the democratic rights of the petition’s signatories.

“These people,” he said, “either read or heard the news wrongly”. He added: “I’m not going to allow it [as a matter for debate] - it’s over as far as I’m concerned”.

Further controversy arose when the petition, which had been available for public signing in the Red Lane boutique at The Cross, was ‘borrowed’ by Fine Gael Councillor Tom Raine.

Boutique proprietor Catherine Keighery told The Munster Express that both she and Cllr Raine had shared “a heated conversation because we were both passionate about the topic we were discussing”.

She added: “I would like to make it absolutely clear that Cllr Raine was in no way aggressive to me during our discussion. He was very polite throughout our conversation - it just so happened that we had diverging views on the topic in question.”

In the wake of the petition controversy, it is understood that several dozen more individuals came forward with the intention of signing the document but in its absence were the denied the opportunity to so do.

Cllr Conway said that any attempts made by those who had reversed their positions since the April meeting were “unacceptable”.

An angry Tramore voter told this newspaper: “The Councillors that went back on what they agreed in April can say what they like and dress it up whatever way they want. They think that people in Tramore are stupid and that they’ve pulled the wool over our eyes. Well they haven’t.”

Meanwhile, the long-awaited resurfacing of the infamously rough section of the R675 Waterford-Tramore Road is due to commence next week, much to the relief of suspension-conscious motorists.

However, Area Engineer Jane O’Neill told Councillors that any sustained rainfall ahead of the planned two-day project would “put the works back slightly”. Or, as Mayor O’Callaghan put it: “It’s all down to rain or no rain.”

Source: http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/tramore-mayoral-pact-rancour-rumbles-on/

Always thought it was odd if Tom appeared argumentative towards Catherine, good to see that was now clarified. Sadly, the argument still goes on and I cant see any end in sight unless its overruled.

Stan Nangle

Sully wrote: »

Source: http://www.munster-express.ie/local-news/tramore-mayoral-pact-rancour-rumbles-on/

Always thought it was odd if Tom appeared aggressive towards Catherine, good to see that was now clarified. Sadly, the argument still goes on and I cant see any end in sight unless its overruled.

Catherine said Tom was argumentative not aggressive.

Sully

Stan Nangle wrote: »

Catherine said Tom was argumentative not aggressive.

Cheers, not fully with it today.

Stan Nangle

Sully wrote: »

Cheers, not fully with it today.

A few people have made that mistake, including both Tom and Catherine.

Catherine said Tom was argumentative.
Tom said he wasn't aggressive.
Catherine agreed he wasn't aggressive.

Gulamugas

Anne Marie Power writes to Editor of News and Star

" Following the formation of the Fine Gael pact with Labour, the Town Council received a petition signed by 221 people in opposition to our decision to form a pact. Fine Gael fully respects peoples good intentions .. But the arithmetic is simple here, of the 4,382 people who voted in Tramore, 221 signed the petition and 4,161 did not.

Basically that means that 4,161 voters in Tramore support the Fine Gael/Labour pact on the Tramore Town Council. In other words, 95% of all voters are satisfied that Fine Gael Labour are in control of the council for a full 5 year tenure"

Now hows that??
Words escape me.

Sully

There would be a large support for Fine Gael/Labour in Tramore anyway, its clear from the recent and past results. Plus, this type of pact is common enough. She has a point, even if there is a margin of error in her math. Its been covered in the papers, yet it never gave such an outcry that people flocked to sign a petition or make their point that it was right or wrong.

221 people felt strongly about it - whats to say that part or all of those never voted FG/Labour in the elections? The number is probably larger in support for the campaign, but not enough to make a big deal about it. I dont think it would be an overwhelming majority of people against the idea.

Psychedelic

LOL, unbelievable.

Does she not know the difference between voting in a Local Election and signing a petition in a ladies fashion shop. How many male voters would be going into Redlane anway. Also, the petition was only going for a few days, before it was taken away by Cllr. Raine for examination.

"4,382 people who voted in Tramore" - I was one of those people and I would have signed the petition myself if I had the opportunity. I actually gave votes to Cllr. Power and Cllr. Lola O'Sullivan however I am NOT satisfied that Fine Gael Labour are in control of the council for a full 5 year tenure.

Sully

The petition was returned, IIRC. I think that article was very unfair on Tom and probably not entirely the whole picture.

It was also in Kellys Classics. True, not everybody visits, but we all knew where they were and so if we decided not to sign it knowing this - we never made our thoughts known. Obviouslly there is a margin of error with people 1) Who care but simply could not be arsed to sign it who agreed, 2) People who were completely unaware of said petition, 3) People who were aware, but felt uncomfortable going into both premisses just to sign a petition. Surely though, that margin of error is not that large to swing the count?

Look at the Tramore road - probably a much larger number of signatures and resulted in several petitions floating around the town and one online. Again, covered in the papers frequently and people went out and put their name down.

The idea of the petition is to show a strong support for a specific campaign. This failed either because it was not setup correctly or because people did not feel strongly enough to put their name down. A slot for their voice was opened, it never fully happened and as such the petition is now being dismissed. Top all this with the lack of public outcry, you cant say a lot of people agreed but never signed.

Psychedelic

Yes I think you're right, the petition was returned according to one of the newspaper reports. I don't think the petitions were in the shops very long though were they? And you just can't compare an election to a petition in a shop. Maybe if there were election style posters all over town advertising the petition then maybe more people would have signed.

Stan's petition about the Tramore Road only had a few hundred signatures but we all know there's many more people than that who are angry about it. But alas, that issue doesn't appear to be taken too seriously by our elected reps either.

I think there has been enough 'public outcry' about both matters. Do we have to march on the streets for it to be taken seriously?

At the end of the day, nothing can change the fact that Ann Marie and Co were fully in support of the McCartan Principles pre-election yet changed their minds after the election. Not exactly crime of the century, but I for one have lost trust in those councillors who went back on their word.

Gulamugas

Come on Sully, you arer staring to believe all that propaganda they are feeding you. I am just surprised that Anne Marie would make that silly assumption that 95% of the people support the Labour/ Fine Gael pact in fact if you look at the figures, the real ones, only 1945 of the 4382 voted no 1 for Fine Gael/ Labour thats 44%, so to use Anne Maries's logic 56% of the people who voted are against a Fine Gael/ Labour pact or if you want to use another set of figures those that voted for the sitting councillors who supported the MacCartan principles and stan nangle, who also openly supported them, came to a total of 2286 or 52%, using either of these they lose!

Jim_Are_Great

Gulamugas wrote: »

Anne Marie Power writes to Editor of News and Star ...

God, that made me want to vomit...

Sully wrote: »

The idea of the petition is to show a strong support for a specific campaign. This failed either because it was not setup correctly or because people did not feel strongly enough to put their name down. A slot for their voice was opened, it never fully happened and as such the petition is now being dismissed. Top all this with the lack of public outcry, you cant say a lot of people agreed but never signed.

Ah now come on. You're missing the point. Sure, a petition is not a ballot. But her spin on the "figures" outlined above is quite transparently bullsh1t.

Stan Nangle

Psychedelic wrote: »

At the end of the day, nothing can change the fact that Ann Marie and Co were fully in support of the McCartan Principles pre-election yet changed their minds after the election.

That is the real issue, and it is noteworthy that Ann Marie has not yet addressed it.

Sully

Psychedelic wrote: »

Yes I think you're right, the petition was returned according to one of the newspaper reports. I don't think the petitions were in the shops very long though were they? And you just can't compare an election to a petition in a shop. Maybe if there were election style posters all over town advertising the petition then maybe more people would have signed.

It first came to light on here that it was around since before June 19th. So about a month. I was more comparing numbers to shine some light on what she was saying. True, perhaps if there was more publicity more signatures would have been gained. But its been covered on here and all local papers several times. I'm sure its also the talking point around the town and word spreads - yet only 200 odd people bothered to make a stand? If it was left longer, or a big sign was put up, would it really attract that many signatures? I think that after an election there is only a small number of people who follow up and take an interest. There is always a large crowd who vote, but have no interest or following so would dismiss this. Its obvious more people care, but never enough to make a stand and sign a petition. Question is; How many do care? Should we only listen to those who actually voiced their view and assume those who didn't are not really pushed?

Stan's petition about the Tramore Road only had a few hundred signatures but we all know there's many more people than that who are angry about it. But alas, that issue doesn't appear to be taken too seriously by our elected reps either.

There was a few variations of Stans floating about, even after he handed his in. Currently 322 online signatures plus whatever amount on the printed version. At the time it was handed in, I would imagine it had more numbers then the petition in this topic. There is a mix of 1) Not having the money to do a proper job, 2) Weather conditions (though, I don't really believe that excuse). The petition was listened to and an action to what we wanted was agreed - it just will take some time.

I think there has been enough 'public outcry' about both matters. Do we have to march on the streets for it to be taken seriously?

There hasn't - only talk about in the paper, amongst friends and a couple of petitions.

At the end of the day, nothing can change the fact that Ann Marie and Co were fully in support of the McCartan Principles pre-election yet changed their minds after the election. Not exactly crime of the century, but I for one have lost trust in those councillors who went back on their word.

Agreed, its not great that certain (not all) councillors went back on a decision made which I think some part of our electorate took into consideration when voting. Its probably done more harm then good to the candidates and the party locally.

Gulamugas wrote: »

Come on Sully, you arer staring to believe all that propaganda they are feeding you. I am just surprised that Anne Marie would make that silly assumption that 95% of the people support the Labour/ Fine Gael pact in fact if you look at the figures, the real ones, only 1945 of the 4382 voted no 1 for Fine Gael/ Labour thats 44%, so to use Anne Maries's logic 56% of the people who voted are against a Fine Gael/ Labour pact or if you want to use another set of figures those that voted for the sitting councillors who supported the MacCartan principles and stan nangle, who also openly supported them, came to a total of 2286 or 52%, using either of these they lose!

I'm not exactly a big fan of councillors dropping back on a decision made public before the election as I believe there were other ways they could have "dodged the question" without all this hassle. Those who changed their mind are risking a lot in terms of re-election. I feel more damage is being done with these speeches made, letters sent to editors, looking at the petition before it was even handed over etc. I never expected there to a reaction like this, but I cant see any change being made nor will the Greens take any notice, simply because its the "done thing".

Jim_Are_Great wrote: »

Ah now come on. You're missing the point. Sure, a petition is not a ballot. But her spin on the "figures" outlined above is quite transparently bullsh1t.

The only point I see is that 200 odd signatures out of an electorate that size, will be used to point out "the public are happy". Its 200 that feel strongly enough about it, the others not so much (excl. margin of error). The figures may be daft or questionable, but its enough grounds to make such a stand.

Personally, I think a new arrangement should be made which would allow for the pact, just changed. The original plan, while nice, was probably never going to happen because its just not the way things are usually done. But this current method seems wrong and unfair on Joe especially and it has to be noted that when he was major the last time he did an excellent job.