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Are the teachers living in the real world?
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I read that 24% of the Irish adult population is illiterate. Given our teachers are amonst the highest paid in the world, with far more holidays and far more days off and less hours per week than their European counterparts, and a far higher salary than the European average, they would indeed be missed
In general, they / their union representatives have a lot to answer for. Shame on them.
We all work within our own sphere of reference and i's going to be difficult to get any meeting of minds here – but, lets see......
Older teachers joined the profession during the 70's at a time when teaching was at the higher echelons of professional life in Ireland. We were primarily an agrarian society with a limited, and technologically unsophisticated, industrial base. Third level education was a path few aspired to and teachers were often the most highly educated individuals in their community. Teachers pay and position in society reflected this reality.
Much has changed since then. Society as a whole has become more educated with third level education open to most sectors of society. The jobs market itself has changed with many jobs in Industry requiring high calibre graduates, some even requiring substantial postgraduate qualifications. The role, or expectations, of many teachers has not changed to reflect this new reality.
Professional associations have not helped. The approach tends to be pay progression above all else, regardless of ultimate cost. Benchmarking comparisons are made against the best paid in Industry, even where these individuals have far more substantial qualifications, breadth of experience and levels of responsibility. Non-pay discussion still centre on areas such as incremental scales, posts of responsibility and even minutiae such as supervision during breaks.
The agenda is often led by the older teachers. These are exceptionally well paid and what they deliver in return is almost entirely at their discretion. Compliant unions support them at every turn, leaving limited options for Principals and Boards of Management when they are not doing their job. In the better schools, committed teachers carry their under performing colleagues. In non-performing schools, pupils are simply not taught properly.
Committed teachers, their pupils, and society as a whole, are not well served by the above approach. Younger teachers have limited opportunity to gain wider experience, develop their talents and advance professionally. Some of the best become disillusioned and leave teaching altogether. Others tough it out, but compensate by minimising their workload and contribution. For pupils, the educational experience varies widely – ranging from enlightening and energising to an endurance exercise where they could finish 2nd level functionally illiterate. The country ends up with many citizens with limited work prospects in a knowledge-led economy.
Its time to raise our game in the whole educational arena – primary, secondary and third level. The issue is not about teachers pay or holidays, it is about building a world class educational system. This does NOT imply yet another round of teacher bashing. It DOES require an entirely new approach to how teachers are trained, employed and progress in their career. Neither does it mean “pay cuts and cutbacks across the board”. Rather, it means increased value for money, improved educational outcomes and greater professional satisfaction and reward. Surely that's something we can all agree on?0 -
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Third level success tells you nothing about 2nd level success. American high schools aint all that, but their ( best) universities attract talent, both faculty and students, from around the world. Their worst universities are not that good. The UK has similarly very high standards for it's best universities, some good standards in engineering and medicine elsewhere, and so-so everywhere else.
since Ireland is not a large power, nor has it the resources of established universities, it cant compete on that level.
But that standards at undergraduate level are consistantly good, and even. There isn't an elite university in Ireland, certainly Trinity likes to think it is but it isn't.
I'm not sure the point you're trying to make.
TCD is currently ranked in the top 50 universities in the world.
http://www.topuniversities.com/university_rankings/results/2008/overall_rankings/top_100_universities/
University rankings do not tell the whole story, by any means. However, all things being equal, there is a greater probability of getting a high calibre education the higher ranked a university is.
Most universities, and indeed third level colleges in general, specialise in certain areas. Therefore, it is not sufficient to look at general rankings. It is important to consider the particular discipline one is interested in and look at how the university is considered in that area.0 -
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randylonghorn wrote: »Spot on.
I'm not sure I would have used the word "entirely", Hillel, but it's certainly a major factor.
Agree, poor phrasing, on my part.
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Top 51 according to thatTCD is currently ranked in the top 50 universities in the world.
http://www.topuniversities.com/university_rankings/results/2008/overall_rankings/top_100_universities/
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On that list it is 49th.
(The ranking takes account of uni's on the same rating. For example, the National University of SINGAPORE and the University of CALIFORNIA, are joint 30th. To account for this, the next ranking is the University of BRISTOL at 32nd.)[/URL]
I didn't even see that. My mistake. 0 -
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It's been said before no doubt but I'm too lazy to read 23 pages
A few years back teachers claimed they were responsible for the economic success that Ireland had.
Not solely responsible now but they claimed to have played a big part.
Are they blameless for the economic problems? They probably are blameless but then you can't claim credit and refuse all criticism0 -
It's been said before no doubt but I'm too lazy to read 23 pages
A few years back teachers claimed they were responsible for the economic success that Ireland had.
Not solely responsible now but they claimed to have played a big part.
Are they blameless for the economic problems? They probably are blameless but then you can't claim credit and refuse all criticism
The education system did play a big part in companies deciding to base themselves here. Don't think it was teachers who took out multi million loans and didn't pay them back.0 -
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It's been said before no doubt but I'm too lazy to read 23 pages
A few years back teachers claimed they were responsible for the economic success that Ireland had.
Not solely responsible now but they claimed to have played a big part.
Are they blameless for the economic problems? They probably are blameless but then you can't claim credit and refuse all criticism
agreed
the religous do that with GOD
we dont need the teachers at it0 -
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