Are the teachers living in the real world?

themont85 · 15-04-2009 11:09am

the_syco wrote: »

Works for 8 hours, corrects homework for another few hours.

BS teachers work a max 22 hours a week teaching. They get free classes everyday in which to do their corrections. The problem with teaching is some are great and clearly put way more hours than others in setting assignments and corrections, others are far more lax. There is no targets for them to be reached.

For those who call it begrudgery that is such a cop out. They have to take cuts in wages, Name me a country in the world where teachers are really well paid, comparitively they are in Ireland. How does a teacher lose their job? Very difficult from all my teacher buddies once your in the school 3 years. All the free time for grinds, coaching ect. 2-3 months summer holidays. They got great pay increases during the boom, didn't benefit at all is a load of bull.

I have to laugh when i hear the TUI president saying all he wants them to do is teach and not have to do 'administrative work', i'd love to know exactly what that is, for some teachers once they teach the class they think job done. These union heads are trying to justify their existance.

partyguinness · 15-04-2009 11:46am

Its amazing that teachers only seem to strike when it their pay packet is under threat and then they say its for the students....haha pull the other one...

Why dont they strike for better schools and facilities?

The last few conferences have seen standing ovations for Ministers...even though the bad school conditions were just the same then but now attack their pay packet..and well...you see their reaction...says it all really..:rolleyes:

They are setting a very bad example for the students they teach..acting like children themselves...

Teachers have way too much time on their hands thats why they can kick up such a fuss..I seriously think the school year shoulc be extended in line with other OCED countries...after all they are being paid anyway..

I am amazed that they dont hold these conferences during the school term as an "in service" day...:rolleyes:

97i9y3941 · 15-04-2009 11:48am

i find it amazeing that the schools still run by the church are ones that are run down,church is well loaded to look after itself

ntlbell · 15-04-2009 11:50am

Woger wrote: »

To be fair it's a thankless job, how much **** do some of them have to tale form students and parents?

I'm sick of hearing about this thankless job crap.

most jobs are, most jobs you have to take crap from someone

this is not about if it's a thankless job or not.

ntlbell · 15-04-2009 11:54am

why don't they picket for the 3 months they have off?

that they'll get paid for outside the dail and not affect the kids education?

partyguinness · 15-04-2009 11:57am

ntlbell wrote: »

why don't they picket for the 3 months they have off?

that they'll get paid for outside the dail and not affect the kids education?

Yes thats a very fair point...

gurramok · 15-04-2009 12:01pm

kraggy wrote: »

People chose at the time to go with the private sector to avail of the benefits, but now that things have gone pear-shaped in the economy they decide to make teachers public enemy number 1?

Get over yourselves.

If it was so bad a a teacher, why did they not leave to goto the 'lucrative' private sector then?

They didn't and you know well why, they were rewarded handsomely via benchmarking.

Now as the employer(govt) is in dire straits as well as the private sector, then you will agree to benchmark backwards to private sector wage levels.

You will get a shock at the results.

bobbyjoe · 15-04-2009 12:02pm

ntlbell wrote: »

why don't they picket for the 3 months they have off?

that they'll get paid for outside the dail and not affect the kids education?

Because the point of a strike to cause disruption.

KerranJast · 15-04-2009 12:04pm

Gambit32 wrote: »

Teachers have by far the handiest number,great pay,job satifaction,4 months holidays every year,and a million other perk,and they have the nerve to ask for more,have you ever heard of a teacher being fired for incompetancy?,I remember many from my school years that should have been

Some of the teachers I've had over the years had the patience of saints. If I'd been in charge I'd have punched some of the gob****es in my class in the face. Dealing with 2 or 3 whiny kids is bad enough. 35-40 of them would drive me insane. Similar one moany teenager is a pain. Handling a class full of them, a significant minority of which are only interested in causing disruption, is my idea of hell. I'd need the 3 months holidays just to get my sanity back. At least in IT when we have idiot customers we can treat them like idiots and we don't have to worry about them running to Mammy to bail them out.

meboloxitis · 15-04-2009 12:07pm

ntlbell wrote: »

why don't they picket for the 3 months they have off?

that they'll get paid for outside the dail and not affect the kids education?

GENIUS!!

I'd love to hear a valid arguement for this comment

partyguinness · 15-04-2009 12:11pm

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Because the point of a strike to cause disruption.

Of course...but they say thats its not to cause disruption and that the students will not be effected...

This would call their bluff...

partyguinness · 15-04-2009 12:12pm

meboloxitis wrote: »

GENIUS!!

I'd love to hear a valid arguement for this comment

The arguments are pretty self explanatory really...

bobbyjoe · 15-04-2009 12:13pm

partyguinness wrote: »

Of course...but they say thats its not to cause disruption and that the students will not be effected...

This would call their bluff...

Didn't read that. Link?

ntlbell · 15-04-2009 12:18pm

meboloxitis wrote: »

GENIUS!!

I'd love to hear a valid arguement for this comment

It's very straight forward.

They get 3 months off. paid.

So get out the plackards and prance around outside the dail for 3 months

they get to protest

and the kids that they care so much don't lose any education time

crazy i know having the kids interest at heart!

madness!

ntlbell · 15-04-2009 12:20pm

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Because the point of a strike to cause disruption.

but they claim they have the kids interest's right?

denying them a day of education doesn't sound like they do

sounds like they have their own?

i don't mind them striking as long as their honest about it don't use the kids in one hand and then attack the kids with the other.

bobbyjoe · 15-04-2009 12:24pm

ntlbell wrote: »

but they claim they have the kids interest's right?

denying them a day of education doesn't sound like they do

sounds like they have their own?

i don't mind them striking as long as their honest about it don't use the kids in one hand and then attack the kids with the other.

Striking during the summer holidays would achieve nothing. Class sizes would still grow, special teachers lost etc, If they want to stop these things they would need to cause some disruption in the kids education to help them in the long run.

ntlbell · 15-04-2009 12:29pm

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Striking during the summer holidays would achieve nothing. Class sizes would still grow, special teachers lost etc, If they want to stop these things they would need to cause some disruption in the kids education to help them in the long run.

why haven't they been striking over the last few years?

from what i can see the reason they're striking is over money?

if it's not money then why now?

partyguinness · 15-04-2009 12:30pm

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Striking during the summer holidays would achieve nothing. Class sizes would still grow, special teachers lost etc, If they want to stop these things they would need to cause some disruption in the kids education to help them in the long run.

So its all for the kids education....pull the other one...:rolleyes:

They were perfectly happy to put up with the apparent bad conditions when their pay was on the up...now their pay is under attack and they all of a sudden want to strike for the good of the kids...thats hilarious...LOL

They are certainly in a fantasy world if they think they rest of the country will buy that tripe..

bobbyjoe · 15-04-2009 12:35pm

partyguinness wrote: »

So its all for the kids education....pull the other one...:rolleyes:

They were perfectly happy to put up with the apparent bad conditions when their pay was on the up...now their pay is under attack and they all of a sudden want to strike for the good of the kids...thats hilarious...LOL

They are certainly in a fantasy world if they think they rest of the country will buy that tripe..

Where are they saying its not only about money?
Its a lot of factors money being one.

ntlbell · 15-04-2009 12:36pm

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Where are they saying its not only about money?
Its a lot of factors money being one.

but why only strike when the money became a problem?

the other problems have always been there?

makes little sense

Sleepy · 15-04-2009 12:37pm

kraggy wrote: »

How someone, who could have become a teacher during the boom years, can turn around and begrudge teachers their entitlements now is beyond me.

And here we have the crux of the problem - the sense of entitlement amongst some of those working in of our public service. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against teachers. I am where I am in life thanks in part to some fantastic teachers I had in school and could be further in life if some of the others had done their jobs better. Quite a few of my friends work or are looking for work in the profession.

It gets very tiring.

Why didn't those who now have a bee in their bonnet about public sector pay join the public sector a few years ago if the job is such a cushy number?

During the peak years, a teacher's pay was peanuts in comparison with jobs in the private sector that people I know had and involved much less responsibility.

I lived with a primary school teacher during the peak years. I had more qualifications, she had an extra year's experience in the workplace.

She earned more than me, had a pension, had two months summer holidays, mid-term breaks, a fortnight at Christmas and was home every day by half four and I've no doubt that she was a great teacher.

Teachers haven't earned peanuts in comparison to the private sector during the boom years. Some private sector workers earned lucrative salaries (both deserved and undeserved) during the boom years, many company directors earned fortunes just as all politicians and senior civil servants did. This public sector delusion that everyone in the private sector earned hundreds of thousands a year during the boom really is tiresome. The directors of banks, property developers etc. are a *tiny* minority of the private sector and virtually every private sector worker I know is as disgusted with their vastly over-the-top salaries as the public sector workers I know.

Why didn't I go for a job in the public sector? Personally, it was because I enjoy being challenged in my work, can't stand office politics, wanted something with a bit of variety to my working week and had a strength in the area of IT so I entered the world of IT consultancy. I've no complaints about my choices (or the fact I'm currently working a 4 day week for a take-home pay that's over 25% down on this time last year after the budget).

People chose at the time to go with the private sector to avail of the benefits, but now that things have gone pear-shaped in the economy they decide to make teachers public enemy number 1?

Get over yourselves.

Let's look at a just two facts:

Teachers work low hours by comparison to most other professions both public and private. (True some of the better teachers put extra time into extra curicular activities, class preparation etc. but no more so that you'd find other workers putting extra time into getting their work done while waiting for the traffic rush to pass / organising the office's social club etc.)

The qualifications required to gain access to the profession are not that high.

So, lets look at this logically:

If we take it that normal working hours and holidays in a moderately skilled profession (e.g. administrative work for a private sector business) attracts a salary of X thousand euro per year.

How can someone working lower hours and having more holidays in a similarly skilled profession expect to be paid that same X thousand euro per year or more?

jimmmy · 15-04-2009 12:40pm

jahalpin wrote: »

Are the teachers living in the real world at all?

(Please note that I am referring to the permanent full-time staff of the Department of Education and Science ONLY)

Their annual meetings are on this week and the main topic on the adgenda is he fact that education is underfunded which is leading to fewer special needs teachers and sub-standard school facilites etc..

They might have a point, if they didn't then turn around and complain about how they need an inflation-beating pay rise of over 10% and they are having to bail out the bankers by having to pay towards their pensions. The simple fact is that the state only has so much money to spend and that if the money is used to increase the pay of existing staff then there is less to pay for new staff and facilites (simple maths really!!!!!)

If the teachers really believe that they are underpaid, then perhaps they could get a second job during during their four-month (secondary - 3 months primary) holidays.

I also find it unacceptable that they so little respect for the office of a Minister of the Republic of Ireland that they have the cheek to walk out during the Ministers speech (who is, let us not forget, their boss). The Minister for Education and Science is under no obligation to attend the meeting and does so out of his or her goodwill

+1

The teachers should remember they are relatively well off. Some I know go on luxury lengthy holidays in the summer....others work in cash touristy jobs for a month or 2 and then take good holidays later in the year.

All this talk about government "partners" ; the government should realise it is the boss, not the partner of the unions who always dictate.

partyguinness · 15-04-2009 12:56pm

I work in a law firm (currently down to a 3 day a week for the record) and I am currently buying a property for a school principal.

He rings up last week moaning about that cuts in his wages after the budget etc etc and how it will make things tighter for him...and as a public sector worker the bank may re evaluate his mortgage application..

The violins were playing in the back ground..a real hard luck story..of course I have to listen to this and say nothing....

Oh yeah...he is buying a holiday home in Kerry for €300k and it is his 3rd house..

My heart was bleeding for the poor fecker struggling to buy his 2nd holiday home...:rolleyes:

ntlbell · 15-04-2009 12:58pm

partyguinness wrote: »

I work in a law firm (currently down to a 3 day a week for the record) and I am currently buying a property for a school principal.

He rings up last week moaning about that cuts in his wages after the budget etc etc and how it will make things tighter for him...and as a public sector worker the bank may re evaluate his mortgage application..

The violins were playing in the back ground..a real hard luck story..of course I have to listen to this and say nothing....

Oh yeah...he is buying a holiday home in Kerry for €300k and it is his 3rd house..

My heart was bleeding for the poor fecker struggling to buy his 2nd holiday home...:rolleyes:

he should give that teacher who bought the croatian place in the sun a few tips

bobbyjoe · 15-04-2009 1:12pm

ntlbell wrote: »

why haven't they been striking over the last few years?

from what i can see the reason they're striking is over money?

if it's not money then why now?

The education system is being hit harder now than ever before.
Still don't see anyone claiming that money is not a factor of course it is.

ejmaztec · 15-04-2009 1:15pm

partyguinness wrote: »

I work in a law firm (currently down to a 3 day a week for the record) and I am currently buying a property for a school principal.

He rings up last week moaning about that cuts in his wages after the budget etc etc and how it will make things tighter for him...and as a public sector worker the bank may re evaluate his mortgage application..

The violins were playing in the back ground..a real hard luck story..of course I have to listen to this and say nothing....

Oh yeah...he is buying a holiday home in Kerry for €300k and it is his 3rd house..

My heart was bleeding for the poor fecker struggling to buy his 2nd holiday home...:rolleyes:

Yes, in my work, I've seen a lot of teachers with buy-to-lets, and a few others with a bit of farm-land that they play at being farmers on. The latter make losses with their "hobby" and get tax refunds for the privilege.:rolleyes:

gurramok · 15-04-2009 1:17pm

KerranJast wrote: »

Some of the teachers I've had over the years had the patience of saints. If I'd been in charge I'd have punched some of the gob****es in my class in the face. Dealing with 2 or 3 whiny kids is bad enough. 35-40 of them would drive me insane. Similar one moany teenager is a pain. Handling a class full of them, a significant minority of which are only interested in causing disruption, is my idea of hell. I'd need the 3 months holidays just to get my sanity back. At least in IT when we have idiot customers we can treat them like idiots and we don't have to worry about them running to Mammy to bail them out.

Tell that to the minimum wage workers in retail who deal with the bad elements of the general public.

bobbyjoe · 15-04-2009 1:20pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Yes, in my work, I've seen a lot of teachers with buy-to-lets, and a few others with a bit of farm-land that they play at being farmers on. The latter make losses with their "hobby" and get tax refunds for the privilege.:rolleyes:

Are they buying these properties just using their wages or from other sources?
Here are the teacher pay scales. scales.http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html

dan_d · 15-04-2009 1:21pm

I'm not a teacher but I know a lot of them. The one thing I knew I didn't want to do in college was teaching. The kids are a minor part of the problem. The parents are the major problem.
Yes they are overpaid, and they get great holidays. But the cuts aren't right from the point of view of increasing class sizes, and losing teachers, in an economy that should be pumping money into education, as a way out of the disastrous mess we're in.
I've a question though, not really related, but I'll throw it out there. Compare this to the workers in Lufthansa Air Motive. I hear this morning they've rejected the deal that management is offering to them in return for a multi million euro investment package. Their unions refuse to accept the conditions, which as I understand it, amounts to a 10% cut in shift allowance, and being paid for half the overtime worked...the other half is to built up in a "bank" system to be paid for/ taken off as the discretion of the worker and management, among other things. (today's Irish times)
Lufthansa are one of the very few companies who want to invest in this country and I'm pretty sure this whole thing is a complete mystery to them. They've told their workers that if the deal isn't accepted they will be winding down the operation there within the next couple of years (again, today's Times), as the engines serviced there are obsolete, and they basically want to start servicing newer ones.
I know people have mortgages and children etc etc. But surely the job they have is better than no job at all? Surely the long term view here would be to try and keep job security rather than grab all you can get right now? Furthermore, there are people in that company who are not in a union. And the way the unions are acting now will put them out of a job too.
What I'm asking is why aren't people saying the same thing about these workers as the teachers? They don't seem to be living in the real world either. The sooner we ALL realise (public and private) that we are pricing ourselves way out of every market, the better.It's a very tricky balance, I understand that. But it's one I feel we'll have to accept and deal with, if not now, then in the very near future.

meboloxitis · 15-04-2009 1:25pm

After reading through this tread I feel I should submit my own personal feelings on the matter.

I went to public school up to my leaving cert & I know first hand how difficult it can be to try teach a class of disruptive lunatics.

Without tarring all teachers with the same brush, some of my class tutors were only in it for the money & benefits! We were told on many an occasion "sure I could'nt give a toss if you learn or not! I get paid & have the summer off paid" These comments are still very fresh in my mind!

I decided to devolp my career in the private sector & looking back now I wish I had have gone into teaching because I have still to come across a job with as many paid breaks & benefits!

I do feel that they should be paid well for the job they do but I think getting paid over the xmas & summer holidays & pulling these 1/2 days and staff meetings is incredible! I get 4 weeks holidays a YEAR & I'm thankfull to get them! The stink of envy in this post is unbearable...

Are the teachers living in the real world?

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