Are the teachers living in the real world?

Sleepy

kraggy wrote: »

How someone, who could have become a teacher during the boom years, can turn around and begrudge teachers their entitlements now is beyond me.

And here we have the crux of the problem - the sense of entitlement amongst some of those working in of our public service. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against teachers. I am where I am in life thanks in part to some fantastic teachers I had in school and could be further in life if some of the others had done their jobs better. Quite a few of my friends work or are looking for work in the profession.

It gets very tiring.

Why didn't those who now have a bee in their bonnet about public sector pay join the public sector a few years ago if the job is such a cushy number?

During the peak years, a teacher's pay was peanuts in comparison with jobs in the private sector that people I know had and involved much less responsibility.

I lived with a primary school teacher during the peak years. I had more qualifications, she had an extra year's experience in the workplace.

She earned more than me, had a pension, had two months summer holidays, mid-term breaks, a fortnight at Christmas and was home every day by half four and I've no doubt that she was a great teacher.

Teachers haven't earned peanuts in comparison to the private sector during the boom years. Some private sector workers earned lucrative salaries (both deserved and undeserved) during the boom years, many company directors earned fortunes just as all politicians and senior civil servants did. This public sector delusion that everyone in the private sector earned hundreds of thousands a year during the boom really is tiresome. The directors of banks, property developers etc. are a *tiny* minority of the private sector and virtually every private sector worker I know is as disgusted with their vastly over-the-top salaries as the public sector workers I know.

Why didn't I go for a job in the public sector? Personally, it was because I enjoy being challenged in my work, can't stand office politics, wanted something with a bit of variety to my working week and had a strength in the area of IT so I entered the world of IT consultancy. I've no complaints about my choices (or the fact I'm currently working a 4 day week for a take-home pay that's over 25% down on this time last year after the budget).

People chose at the time to go with the private sector to avail of the benefits, but now that things have gone pear-shaped in the economy they decide to make teachers public enemy number 1?

Get over yourselves.

Let's look at a just two facts:

Teachers work low hours by comparison to most other professions both public and private. (True some of the better teachers put extra time into extra curicular activities, class preparation etc. but no more so that you'd find other workers putting extra time into getting their work done while waiting for the traffic rush to pass / organising the office's social club etc.)

The qualifications required to gain access to the profession are not that high.

So, lets look at this logically:

If we take it that normal working hours and holidays in a moderately skilled profession (e.g. administrative work for a private sector business) attracts a salary of X thousand euro per year.

How can someone working lower hours and having more holidays in a similarly skilled profession expect to be paid that same X thousand euro per year or more?

jimmmy

jahalpin wrote: »

Are the teachers living in the real world at all?

(Please note that I am referring to the permanent full-time staff of the Department of Education and Science ONLY)

Their annual meetings are on this week and the main topic on the adgenda is he fact that education is underfunded which is leading to fewer special needs teachers and sub-standard school facilites etc..

They might have a point, if they didn't then turn around and complain about how they need an inflation-beating pay rise of over 10% and they are having to bail out the bankers by having to pay towards their pensions. The simple fact is that the state only has so much money to spend and that if the money is used to increase the pay of existing staff then there is less to pay for new staff and facilites (simple maths really!!!!!)

If the teachers really believe that they are underpaid, then perhaps they could get a second job during during their four-month (secondary - 3 months primary) holidays.

I also find it unacceptable that they so little respect for the office of a Minister of the Republic of Ireland that they have the cheek to walk out during the Ministers speech (who is, let us not forget, their boss). The Minister for Education and Science is under no obligation to attend the meeting and does so out of his or her goodwill

+1

The teachers should remember they are relatively well off. Some I know go on luxury lengthy holidays in the summer....others work in cash touristy jobs for a month or 2 and then take good holidays later in the year.

All this talk about government "partners" ; the government should realise it is the boss, not the partner of the unions who always dictate.

partyguinness

I work in a law firm (currently down to a 3 day a week for the record) and I am currently buying a property for a school principal.

He rings up last week moaning about that cuts in his wages after the budget etc etc and how it will make things tighter for him...and as a public sector worker the bank may re evaluate his mortgage application..

The violins were playing in the back ground..a real hard luck story..of course I have to listen to this and say nothing....

Oh yeah...he is buying a holiday home in Kerry for €300k and it is his 3rd house..

My heart was bleeding for the poor fecker struggling to buy his 2nd holiday home...:rolleyes:

ntlbell

partyguinness wrote: »

I work in a law firm (currently down to a 3 day a week for the record) and I am currently buying a property for a school principal.

He rings up last week moaning about that cuts in his wages after the budget etc etc and how it will make things tighter for him...and as a public sector worker the bank may re evaluate his mortgage application..

The violins were playing in the back ground..a real hard luck story..of course I have to listen to this and say nothing....

Oh yeah...he is buying a holiday home in Kerry for €300k and it is his 3rd house..

My heart was bleeding for the poor fecker struggling to buy his 2nd holiday home...:rolleyes:

he should give that teacher who bought the croatian place in the sun a few tips

bobbyjoe

ntlbell wrote: »

why haven't they been striking over the last few years?

from what i can see the reason they're striking is over money?

if it's not money then why now?

The education system is being hit harder now than ever before.
Still don't see anyone claiming that money is not a factor of course it is.

ejmaztec

partyguinness wrote: »

I work in a law firm (currently down to a 3 day a week for the record) and I am currently buying a property for a school principal.

He rings up last week moaning about that cuts in his wages after the budget etc etc and how it will make things tighter for him...and as a public sector worker the bank may re evaluate his mortgage application..

The violins were playing in the back ground..a real hard luck story..of course I have to listen to this and say nothing....

Oh yeah...he is buying a holiday home in Kerry for €300k and it is his 3rd house..

My heart was bleeding for the poor fecker struggling to buy his 2nd holiday home...:rolleyes:

Yes, in my work, I've seen a lot of teachers with buy-to-lets, and a few others with a bit of farm-land that they play at being farmers on. The latter make losses with their "hobby" and get tax refunds for the privilege.:rolleyes:

gurramok

KerranJast wrote: »

Some of the teachers I've had over the years had the patience of saints. If I'd been in charge I'd have punched some of the gob****es in my class in the face. Dealing with 2 or 3 whiny kids is bad enough. 35-40 of them would drive me insane. Similar one moany teenager is a pain. Handling a class full of them, a significant minority of which are only interested in causing disruption, is my idea of hell. I'd need the 3 months holidays just to get my sanity back. At least in IT when we have idiot customers we can treat them like idiots and we don't have to worry about them running to Mammy to bail them out.

Tell that to the minimum wage workers in retail who deal with the bad elements of the general public.

bobbyjoe

ejmaztec wrote: »

Yes, in my work, I've seen a lot of teachers with buy-to-lets, and a few others with a bit of farm-land that they play at being farmers on. The latter make losses with their "hobby" and get tax refunds for the privilege.:rolleyes:

Are they buying these properties just using their wages or from other sources?
Here are the teacher pay scales. scales.http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html

dan_d

I'm not a teacher but I know a lot of them. The one thing I knew I didn't want to do in college was teaching. The kids are a minor part of the problem. The parents are the major problem.
Yes they are overpaid, and they get great holidays. But the cuts aren't right from the point of view of increasing class sizes, and losing teachers, in an economy that should be pumping money into education, as a way out of the disastrous mess we're in.
I've a question though, not really related, but I'll throw it out there. Compare this to the workers in Lufthansa Air Motive. I hear this morning they've rejected the deal that management is offering to them in return for a multi million euro investment package. Their unions refuse to accept the conditions, which as I understand it, amounts to a 10% cut in shift allowance, and being paid for half the overtime worked...the other half is to built up in a "bank" system to be paid for/ taken off as the discretion of the worker and management, among other things. (today's Irish times)
Lufthansa are one of the very few companies who want to invest in this country and I'm pretty sure this whole thing is a complete mystery to them. They've told their workers that if the deal isn't accepted they will be winding down the operation there within the next couple of years (again, today's Times), as the engines serviced there are obsolete, and they basically want to start servicing newer ones.
I know people have mortgages and children etc etc. But surely the job they have is better than no job at all? Surely the long term view here would be to try and keep job security rather than grab all you can get right now? Furthermore, there are people in that company who are not in a union. And the way the unions are acting now will put them out of a job too.
What I'm asking is why aren't people saying the same thing about these workers as the teachers? They don't seem to be living in the real world either. The sooner we ALL realise (public and private) that we are pricing ourselves way out of every market, the better.It's a very tricky balance, I understand that. But it's one I feel we'll have to accept and deal with, if not now, then in the very near future.

meboloxitis

After reading through this tread I feel I should submit my own personal feelings on the matter.

I went to public school up to my leaving cert & I know first hand how difficult it can be to try teach a class of disruptive lunatics.

Without tarring all teachers with the same brush, some of my class tutors were only in it for the money & benefits! We were told on many an occasion "sure I could'nt give a toss if you learn or not! I get paid & have the summer off paid" These comments are still very fresh in my mind!

I decided to devolp my career in the private sector & looking back now I wish I had have gone into teaching because I have still to come across a job with as many paid breaks & benefits!

I do feel that they should be paid well for the job they do but I think getting paid over the xmas & summer holidays & pulling these 1/2 days and staff meetings is incredible! I get 4 weeks holidays a YEAR & I'm thankfull to get them! The stink of envy in this post is unbearable...

partyguinness

bobbyjoe wrote: »

The education system is being hit harder now than ever before.
Still don't see anyone claiming that money is not a factor of course it is.

Yes money is a factor but you are missing our point...

Teachers will start strikes only when there pay packet is under threat..then they roll in other issues re conditions, poor students etc which is telling considering that they never strike about conditions as a stand alone issue...in other words their sudden concern for pupils and they general health of the education system is utter horse manure...

ednwireland

what i want to know is how many voted FF about half of them i guess so they should STFU really.

partyguinness

meboloxitis wrote: »

After reading through this tread I feel I should submit my own personal feelings on the matter.

I went to public school up to my leaving cert & I know first hand how difficult it can be to try teach a class of disruptive lunatics.

Without tarring all teachers with the same brush, some of my class tutors were only in it for the money & benefits! We were told on many an occasion "sure I could'nt give a toss if you learn or not! I get paid & have the summer off paid" These comments are still very fresh in my mind!

I decided to devolp my career in the private sector & looking back now I wish I had have gone into teaching because I have still to come across a job with as many paid breaks & benefits!

I do feel that they should be paid well for the job they do but I think getting paid over the xmas & summer holidays & pulling these 1/2 days and staff meetings is incredible! I get 4 weeks holidays a YEAR & I'm thankfull to get them! The stink of envy in this post is unbearable...

I am only speaking for myslf but I can assure you there is no envy (jealously would be the more appropriate word;)) on my part.

What is annoying is, not teachers conditions pay etc (TBH I would have to work 21 years as a teacher to get the salary I am on now as a 29yr in the private sector)....it is the way teachers constantly moan and feel sorry for themselves. They have no idea how lucky they are. They have this fantastic sense of entitlement but yet all we hear is self pity and "Poor us"..

Thats what is annoying. Hence they are not leaving in the real world.

bobbyjoe

partyguinness wrote: »

Yes money is a factor but you are missing our point...

Teachers will start strikes only when there pay packet is under threat..then they roll in other issues re conditions, poor students etc which is telling considering that they never strike about conditions as a stand alone issue...in other words their sudden concern for pupils and they general health of the education system is utter horse manure...

Teachers are constantly campaigning on conditions, cutbacks etc. I agree with you money is probably the biggest factor but not the only one. Don't see any of the unions claiming otherwise.

bobbyjoe

ednwireland wrote: »

what i want to know is how many voted FF about half of them i guess so they should STFU really.

So if your kid is in a classroom with 30 others and is neglected because the teacher also has special needs kids there to will you just say nothing?

partyguinness

While I personally have no issues with teachers pay etc (prob because my earnings are far more than teachers..but then agian I dont have job security).

I am annoyed about the lack of accountability...crap teachers that cant be removed...we all had them in school (I had a teacher that was regularly sent home drunk...sacked? disciplined? of course not:mad:)...but job for life and all that..they harp on about the private sector but a good amount of crap teachers wouldnt last a week in the private sector...that seems to be completely lost on them.

Catari Jaguar

This is my story/ view. Don't want to be attacked, I'm not attacking anyone.

Teachers were annoyed at the cutbacks, prefabs, cuts in Special Education and language support, job losses for SNAs, learning support and language support teachers. There were protest marches, letters to councillors/ ministers, plenty of angry members and topics on educationposts.ie. You can check back to see when the anger started.

This is the last straw. The injustice of it all, the fat cats, the unemployment,the smoke screens, the govt fcuk ups time and time again. But to try and tax their way out of a recession and have these underhand "pension levys" is a JOKE.

I'm 24. Second year out. Pay scale 4 because I have no higher degree and no dip yet. I think I've been frozen there. I'm also on deductions of nearly 500e a fortnight with Tax, PRSI, pension, pension levy, INTO etc etc...

That's a massive chunk of my salary. Luckily I don't have kids. Luckily I have a permanent job. Lots of my friends went traveling and can hardly even get maternity cover. I know I'll never be a millionaire, I'll be comfortable in a low risk job I enjoy doing. I've always wanted to teach, all this stuff going on is making it so complicated and depressing.

Honestly, I didn't vote strike action because I do feel that I am in an ok position. Better off than many jobless, worse off than many (of greedy wealthy people higher up). I don't want to strike, I'd rather the money for that day (!) I'd rather be teaching. I just want some equality. I think that's what this is about really.

ejmaztec

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Are they buying these properties just using their wages or from other sources?
Here are the teacher pay scales. scales.http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html

Wages, savings, loans where necessary for buy-to-lets. All of the hobby-farming takes place on inherited land.

ntlbell

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Teachers are constantly campaigning on conditions, cutbacks etc. I agree with you money is probably the biggest factor but not the only one. Don't see any of the unions claiming otherwise.

so they "campaign" for better conditions for the kids

but they go on strike when it's their own pocket

at least there's some honesty now

partyguinness

Lil Kitten wrote: »

This is my story/ view. Don't want to be attacked, I'm not attacking anyone.

Teachers were annoyed at the cutbacks, prefabs, cuts in Special Education and language support, job losses for SNAs, learning support and language support teachers. There were protest marches, letters to councillors/ ministers, plenty of angry members and topics on educationposts.ie. You can check back to see when the anger started.

This is the last straw. The injustice of it all, the fat cats, the unemployment,the smoke screens, the govt fcuk ups time and time again. But to try and tax their way out of a recession and have these underhand "pension levys" is a JOKE.

I'm 24. Second year out. Pay scale 4 because I have no higher degree and no dip yet. I think I've been frozen there. I'm also on deductions of nearly 500e a fortnight with Tax, PRSI, pension, pension levy, INTO etc etc...

That's a massive chunk of my salary. Luckily I don't have kids. Luckily I have a permanent job. Lots of my friends went traveling and can hardly even get maternity cover. I know I'll never be a millionaire, I'll be comfortable in a low risk job I enjoy doing. I've always wanted to teach, all this stuff going on is making it so complicated and depressing.

Honestly, I didn't vote strike action because I do feel that I am in an ok position. Better off than many jobless, worse off than many (of greedy wealthy people higher up). I don't want to strike, I'd rather the money for that day (!) I'd rather be teaching. I just want some equality. I think that's what this is about really.

I am not attacking you...but you see the pension cuts etc are the price teachers pay for:-

1. Secure job = Guaranteed wage
2. Guaranteed pension
3. Generous holiday, allowances etc

while the rest of the work force are losing their jobs.This seems to be completely lost on teachers. They dont realise how good they have it compared to the rest of the workforce. Everyone is taking a hit.

The public sector need to appreciate what they have and not moan about what they dont have. I took a 20% cut in wages at the start of the month and I am down €1,200 net a month..gone from my bank account...thats life.

Alcatel

I'm just giggling at the TUI referenced salary scales. Given that the average industrial wage was somewhere about 33,000 euro PA before this recession kicked off, I don't think it's a bad number to start off on €32,599 PA out of college, rising by about a grand a year after that, if I read it correctly?

The allowances are also pretty damn neat, be it for a principal or deputy (after how many years service do they usually get that billet?).

Hourly rates are just funny. €50.34 for supervision and substitution. If I recall correctly, plenty of substitutes stand in simply to make sure nobody throws a char at anyone else, and do nothing further with the class. Not bad, not bad at all.

They can bugger off.

jimmmy

ejmaztec wrote: »

Yes, in my work, I've seen a lot of teachers with buy-to-lets,

and holiday homes....so have I too. I have no sympathy for them or other public servants. They have good secure , pensionable employment not comparable to most people. Their pay needs to be reduced 20%.

bobbyjoe

ntlbell wrote: »

so they "campaign" for better conditions for the kids

but they go on strike when it's their own pocket

at least there's some honesty now

I think you are right. But the other factors are also a big issue not just for teachers.

ejmaztec

Alcatel wrote: »

I'm just giggling at the TUI referenced salary scales. Given that the average industrial wage was somewhere about 33,000 euro PA before this recession kicked off, I don't think it's a bad number to start off on €32,599 PA out of college, rising by about a grand a year after that, if I read it correctly?

The allowances are also pretty damn neat, be it for a principal or deputy (after how many years service do they usually get that billet?).

Hourly rates are just funny. €50.34 for supervision and substitution. If I recall correctly, plenty of substitutes stand in simply to make sure nobody throws a char at anyone else, and do nothing further with the class. Not bad, not bad at all.

I see no peanuts....

Alcatel wrote: »

They can bugger off.

I think that sums it up.

Sleepy

Alcatel wrote: »

I'm just giggling at the TUI referenced salary scales. Given that the average industrial wage was somewhere about 33,000 euro PA before this recession kicked off, I don't think it's a bad number to start off on €32,599 PA out of college, rising by about a grand a year after that, if I read it correctly?

Looking at the same page:


First year salary for a teacher with a second class honours degree and a h. dip ed.:

Basic: €32,599
Allowance for degree: Primary Degree (1st or 2nd Hons) €5,177
Allowance for h. dip: H. Dip in Ed. (1st or 2nd Hons) €1,299

Total: €39075 + Pension

Not bad at all for someone straight out of college who only has to work 8 months of the year...

It may not be a fair comparison since when I started off with a B.Comm and H. Dip in Systems Analysis (both second class honours) it was 6 years ago but my starting salary at that qualification level was €22,000 p.a. with 20 days holidays + public holidays and that was pretty typical for someone starting in IT at the time.

bobbyjoe

Sleepy wrote: »

Looking at the same page:


First year salary for a teacher with a second class honours degree and a h. dip ed.:

Basic: €32,599
Allowance for degree: Primary Degree (1st or 2nd Hons) €5,177
Allowance for h. dip: H. Dip in Ed. (1st or 2nd Hons) €1,299

Total: €39075 + Pension

Not bad at all for someone straight out of college who only has to work 8 months of the year...

It may not be a fair comparison since when I started off with a B.Comm and H. Dip in Systems Analysis (both second class honours) it was 6 years ago but my starting salary at that qualification level was €22,000 p.a. with 20 days holidays + public holidays and that was pretty typical for someone starting in IT at the time.

Anyone know what the actual take home pay is after tax levies etc?

Alcatel

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Anyone know what the actual take home pay is after tax levies etc?

I'd be guessing there, but let's assume 32,599 and not the higher figure for the moment, it'd be 520 a week take home after everything the rest of us have to pay, before the pension's levy which, for somebody earning that much comes to... Anyone? Let's say 7%, the common figure? Then it's 483.60

That's pseudo math, mind you, and it's based on the lowest figure.

Getting a grand a year in increase, no matter how much they're taxing on it, is not a bad number.

Not to mention June, July and August (or just July and August, but with a shorter working day).

ixoy

Alcatel wrote: »

I'd be guessing there, but let's assume 32,599 and not the higher figure for the moment, it'd be 520 a week take home after everything the rest of us have to pay, before the pension's levy which, for somebody earning that much comes to... Anyone? Let's say 7%, the common figure? Then it's 483.60

It's more than that - don't forget tax relief on that levy.

Getting a grand a year in increase, no matter how much they're taxing on it, is not a bad number.

Yep - be interesting to know how much their home pay increases each year, even factoring in the fact their levy may go up. It'll depend on length of service, etc. but the increments are something that's known but often kept quiet about when they're talking about their pay.

Sleepy

Why discount the higher figure? How many teachers are there that don't have a primary degree and a h. dip? I was under the impression that this was pretty much the minimum requirement to becoming a teacher in this country?

Granted I used the figures for 1st or 2nd class honours but how many Arts / Commerce / Science students graduate with less than a 2:2? And, if someone can't manage more than a 2:2 in an Arts degree do we really want them teaching our kids?

I've no idea as to the value of the defined benefit pension but I'd assume it'd be pretty significant - perhaps in the region of 10% I'd definitely expect this to be included in any salary figure before allowing the levy to be discounted for comparison purposes.

To be honest, I was actually surprised at how high the salary is. A starting salary that would be over 40k if you include the net benefit of the pension (after discounting the levy) for 8 months work is pretty generous if you ask me...

oh well

I think that part of the reason that teachers aren't in the real world is that they are dealing with children day in day out. In the most part the children will agree with what the teachers tell them (ok there can be some sh*t stirrers in each class) but I know that if teacher tells kids something, its FACT. Now I could have told my kids the same thing 20 times and they wouldn't belive it. Teachers know this is the case and from what I can see, they then start believing everything they say themselves. I've an aggregate of 25 years dealing with variety of teachers through my own kids and I've found this the case in the vast majority of them.

As an extra point, I can't understand why it takes sooooo long for homework or tests to be corrected and given back. Teachers are continuously talking about all the extra hours they have to do correcting stuff but why then do so many of them take weeks to correct stuff. Its not constructive to children if their mistakes are only pointed out to them weeks after the chapter has been finished.

Nice pay scales, interesting reading there. Agreed that its only now that its affecting their pay packets that they are striking.

population

oh well wrote: »

As an extra point, I can't understand why it takes sooooo long for homework or tests to be corrected and given back. Teachers are continuously talking about all the extra hours they have to do correcting stuff but why then do so many of them take weeks to correct stuff. Its not constructive to children if their mistakes are only pointed out to them weeks after the chapter has been finished.

I know this does not relate specifically to primary/secondary teachers, but I am currently finishing a degree having gone back to college at the age of 31 having worked for 15 years in the private sector.

I am astonished by how handy my lecturers have it and how lazily they go about their business. One lecturer in particular is coasting like nobody I have ever seen in any walk of industry.He just puts slides up and then reads them out.

He has two papers awaiting correction from the class since before Xmas and still has not marked them. When I quizzed him on what is the hold up (politely I'll add) he just got thick and said 'they'll be marked when I mark them'.

Seriously we are about the same age and he is just that obtuse when asked about essentially his productivity and responds to legitimate queries by treating me like a 4 yr old! I could feckin strangle him aaarrrggghhhh!!!!

mike65

So then rolling strikes from September, but apparently this won't harm any children. If thats the case then why bother? Or do striking teachers effect others unknown to me?

population

Oh and he braggs constantly about his holiday home. Comes back from every single 'reading week' with a topped up suntan, and without even a whiff of irony moans about the levy and tells the students he is ready for an indefinite strike:eek:

I thought he was already on one:rolleyes:

LBD

Im not a teacher...my mum is and has been for thirty years. I have subbed for her on occassion and believe me the low number of times I have subbed is for a good reason......its a draining and stressful job where the wellbeing of "precious jimmy" etc is entrusted to you by certain parents who make you feel as if you should be honoured to be in their presence.....obviously not all parents are like this, a rather loud minority are however.
My main point however are these holidays people continually moan about....4months. I'll admit im biased due to my mother but also I get to look at it practically. What EXACTLY is the alternative to their holidays? Would you rather kids stayed in school 365days a year....Im sure ye all would have loved that when ye were in school. I've had years of listening to my mum defending herself to the odd loud mouth person who has nothing better to moan about. Go to college....do the course but more importantly do the job and then we'll see how you feel about the holidays. Everyone in this country has the choice to become a teacher so if the benefits are so great do it and best of luck!!!

Apologies more of a rant but really it had to be said.

ntlbell

LBD wrote: »

Im not a teacher...my mum is and has been for thirty years. I have subbed for her on occassion and believe me the low number of times I have subbed is for a good reason......its a draining and stressful job where the wellbeing of "precious jimmy" etc is entrusted to you by certain parents who make you feel as if you should be honoured to be in their presence.....obviously not all parents are like this, a rather loud minority are however.
My main point however are these holidays people continually moan about....4months. I'll admit im biased due to my mother but also I get to look at it practically. What EXACTLY is the alternative to their holidays? Would you rather kids stayed in school 365days a year....Im sure ye all would have loved that when ye were in school. I've had years of listening to my mum defending herself to the odd loud mouth person who has nothing better to moan about. Go to college....do the course but more importantly do the job and then we'll see how you feel about the holidays. Everyone in this country has the choice to become a teacher so if the benefits are so great do it and best of luck!!!

Apologies more of a rant but really it had to be said.

we all have stressful jobs teaching is just another stressful job

it's not an excuse this is not about if it's stressful or not if it was teachers would be well up there but it has nothing to do with it

teachers no whats involved (they went to school)

but most people dont get 4 months off to de-stress

i dont want to become a teacher i made the choice not to your mother made the choice to do so, now get on with it

weiss

population wrote: »

...

I am astonished by how handy my lecturers have it and how lazily they go about their business. ...

He has two papers awaiting correction from the class since before Xmas and still has not marked them. ...

i've heard the same stories about many lecturers for years, not surprised at all.

They have no idea how easy they have it.

Heard some BS about some "turning to the bottle" ...ffs, what planet are they on?

LBD

I never told you to become a teacher nor did i ask anyone to feel sorry for any teachers merely if teachers conditions upset people so much go off and do it yourself!

population

LBD wrote: »

nor did i ask anyone to feel sorry for any teachers

yes you did

LBD

No.......no I didnt!!!!! Read my original post there, slowly if you have to!

brianthebard

population wrote: »

Oh and he brags constantly about his holiday home. Comes back from every single 'reading week' with a topped up suntan, and without even a whiff of irony moans about the levy and tells the students he is ready for an indefinite strike:eek:

I thought he was already on one:rolleyes:

Not everyone is good at their job. Shocking I know, but it doesn't negate the collective grievances of a profession. I'd love to see some of the people who say that teachers have it easy (not directed at you population) try doing it themselves for a while. I've very little experience myself but it takes a lot of effort to devise lesson plans, try and work on students weaknesses, get the right level of difficulty in lessons, and a million and one other things that won't be readily apparent to a student or non teacher observing.

ixoy

mike65 wrote: »

So then rolling strikes from September, but apparently this won't harm any children. If thats the case then why bother? Or do striking teachers effect others unknown to me?

Oh I've read it that they're still planning industrial action outside of the September protests. The one in September are based on the cutbacks, the ones to come over the horrendous and terrible levy.

patchquinn

Some teachers do live in the real world, but they are not the ones shouting the loudest.

LBD wrote: »

I never told you to become a teacher nor did i ask anyone to feel sorry for any teachers merely if teachers conditions upset people so much go off and do it yourself!

I did. I used to be a teacher, young and idealistic back in 96/97, the start of the Tiger. I taught in two great schools. The staff rooms in both schools were split between what I, and the kids, would call good teachers and crap teachers. The good teachers knew who the crap teachers were; they were generally the ones scowling or making snide comments about students. The good teachers seldom sat with the crap teachers. The good teachers saw their job as a vocation. The crap teachers saw themselves under valued, under stress, and under paid. The good teachers were respected in the class room. The crap teachers constantly spoke about lack of discipline. Good teachers saw problematic children as sad cases that needed their help, these kids were the reason they got into the job. The crap teacher saw these kids as trouble makers; a reason to get out of the job. But they didn’t get out of the job. They stayed and they complained.
Looking around I saw some who despite being crap at their jobs, had job security for life, and no matter how great or ****e others were the pay path was beyond their control. Some people like that security. I didn’t, at the time. I wanted more. I looked at what people were supposedly getting in IT or the real world, and I thought, ‘I want some of that’. A lot of the other teachers thought so too. But they wanted it through union intervention, they made comparisons with exceptional performers in Industry with similar qualifications. The crap teachers who couldn’t be the alpha male/female in a class of 12-18 year olds thought that they would be an alpha in industry. They demanded benchmarking. There was a lot of talk about strikes. Then we broke for summer. I never came back.
A lot of teachers come straight out of school into college and back into school again. It doesn’t seem like a real life, because it isn’t. It is sheltered and they are surrounded by kids all the time. Oh Well’s statement earlier about how this effects teachers thinking is true for many teachers, especially those who don’t have a sideline business that lets them deal with adults. It is not true of all teachers and some of the teachers I met are truly inspirational. But I am tired of hearing the less inspirational ones whine “it’s unfair that we should have to pay for the bankers….unfair that we should have to pay a levy, unfair this unfair that….. it’s unfair we did nothing wrong!” Maybe I am making an unfair comparison but it seems only children and some teachers seem to think the world is unfair to them. The world just is. It’s not fair or unfair. It just is.

I was a damn good teacher, I know this from the respect I got from students, fellow teachers, and principals, and from the fact that even after quitting teaching I earned thousands of black market pounds for the next three to four years giving private grinds in English, maths and Physics (until the changes the English leaving cert curriculum,). I entered the real world and have traveled and worked in other cultures, am relatively successful and still young. I earn enough to keep me happy, but I would definitely be better off financially if I had stayed as a teacher. (Not just salary but pension and factoring in the time value of the relatively high salary of a graduate.) But that’s not what I did, I am not complaining, I made my choices. I might return to teaching later in life because, while the pay is nothing to shout about, there is no reward comparable to seeing a light of understanding or confidence switch on behind the eyes and smile of someone you have just helped. And the holidays!!…man I would kill for those breaks…… ..unreal…

The problem is not that we are upset with teacher conditions. It is that we are upset that they are upset with their conditions. un-fing-believable

nesf

population wrote: »

Oh and he braggs constantly about his holiday home. Comes back from every single 'reading week' with a topped up suntan, and without even a whiff of irony moans about the levy and tells the students he is ready for an indefinite strike:eek:

I thought he was already on one:rolleyes:

There are wasters working in the third level system similar to primary and secondary ones. Generalising from them to cover all of their colleagues is neither fair nor accurate and honestly just undermines your argument which has a good point (i.e. get rid of the lazy ones).

Also, if you think lecturers have it easy, try publishing in decent journals and stay doing so. It's not as trivial as it may look. Publish or perish etc.

ntlbell

LBD wrote: »

I never told you to become a teacher nor did i ask anyone to feel sorry for any teachers merely if teachers conditions upset people so much go off and do it yourself!

the problem i have is they didn't go on strike because of the conditions

and a rep for them this morning on pat kenny said they're not going on strike for conditions this for money

and there will be a SEPARATE CAMPAIGN for conditions campaign my arse

they wouldn't go on strike for the kids but they will for themselves

sickening

population

LBD wrote: »

its a draining and stressful job where the wellbeing of "precious jimmy" etc is entrusted to you by certain parents who make you feel as if you should be honoured to be in their presence.....obviously not all parents are like this, a rather loud minority are however.

I've had years of listening to my mum defending herself to the odd loud mouth person who has nothing better to moan about.

Ok

I read it slowly (not as slowly as some teachers seem to read papers before correction mind)

You are trying to drum up sympathies with the above statements.

population

nesf wrote: »

There are wasters working in the third level system similar to primary and secondary ones. Generalising from them to cover all of their colleagues is neither fair nor accurate and honestly just undermines your argument which has a good point (i.e. get rid of the lazy ones).

Also, if you think lecturers have it easy, try publishing in decent journals and stay doing so. It's not as trivial as it may look. Publish or perish etc.

I am referring to one individual. I take your point. I did my first two years distant learning and my lecturers were generally excellent. However this is my first year full time and I am somewhat surprised at some of the carry on.

population

brianthebard wrote: »

Not everyone is good at their job. Shocking I know, but it doesn't negate the collective grievances of a profession. I'd love to see some of the people who say that teachers have it easy (not directed at you population) try doing it themselves for a while. I've very little experience myself but it takes a lot of effort to devise lesson plans, try and work on students weaknesses, get the right level of difficulty in lessons, and a million and one other things that won't be readily apparent to a student or non teacher observing.

It sounds like you personally put in a lot of work. Therefore I deem you to be a real asset to the teaching profession and our children. I hope you continue to teach for a long time.

The issue I have is with those who put in no effort and are unsackable for some bizarre reason

Gael23

No is my honest answer. While I in no way support what the government is doing, I thinkteachers sometimes try to portray themselves as the only victims.

MG

A lot of teachers are losers. All trade unionists are losers. Teaching Unions are therefore full of losers.

I feel sorry for the genuine teachers who are appalled by the behaviour of the unions.

brianthebard

population wrote: »

It sounds like you personally put in a lot of work. Therefore I deem you to be a real asset to the teaching profession and our children. I hope you continue to teach for a long time.

The issue I have is with those who put in no effort and are unsackable for some bizarre reason

That's a fair point and I don't think many people would have a problem with it, its just important not to tar everyone with the same brush. I'm not personally offended, I just know the amount of work that some of my lecturers and teachers have put in over the years and hate to see them and their profession lambasted by those who aren't willing to look at things from a different perspective.