Are the teachers living in the real world?

partyguinness

bobbyjoe wrote: »

The education system is being hit harder now than ever before.
Still don't see anyone claiming that money is not a factor of course it is.

Yes money is a factor but you are missing our point...

Teachers will start strikes only when there pay packet is under threat..then they roll in other issues re conditions, poor students etc which is telling considering that they never strike about conditions as a stand alone issue...in other words their sudden concern for pupils and they general health of the education system is utter horse manure...

ednwireland

what i want to know is how many voted FF about half of them i guess so they should STFU really.

partyguinness

meboloxitis wrote: »

After reading through this tread I feel I should submit my own personal feelings on the matter.

I went to public school up to my leaving cert & I know first hand how difficult it can be to try teach a class of disruptive lunatics.

Without tarring all teachers with the same brush, some of my class tutors were only in it for the money & benefits! We were told on many an occasion "sure I could'nt give a toss if you learn or not! I get paid & have the summer off paid" These comments are still very fresh in my mind!

I decided to devolp my career in the private sector & looking back now I wish I had have gone into teaching because I have still to come across a job with as many paid breaks & benefits!

I do feel that they should be paid well for the job they do but I think getting paid over the xmas & summer holidays & pulling these 1/2 days and staff meetings is incredible! I get 4 weeks holidays a YEAR & I'm thankfull to get them! The stink of envy in this post is unbearable...

I am only speaking for myslf but I can assure you there is no envy (jealously would be the more appropriate word;)) on my part.

What is annoying is, not teachers conditions pay etc (TBH I would have to work 21 years as a teacher to get the salary I am on now as a 29yr in the private sector)....it is the way teachers constantly moan and feel sorry for themselves. They have no idea how lucky they are. They have this fantastic sense of entitlement but yet all we hear is self pity and "Poor us"..

Thats what is annoying. Hence they are not leaving in the real world.

bobbyjoe

partyguinness wrote: »

Yes money is a factor but you are missing our point...

Teachers will start strikes only when there pay packet is under threat..then they roll in other issues re conditions, poor students etc which is telling considering that they never strike about conditions as a stand alone issue...in other words their sudden concern for pupils and they general health of the education system is utter horse manure...

Teachers are constantly campaigning on conditions, cutbacks etc. I agree with you money is probably the biggest factor but not the only one. Don't see any of the unions claiming otherwise.

bobbyjoe

ednwireland wrote: »

what i want to know is how many voted FF about half of them i guess so they should STFU really.

So if your kid is in a classroom with 30 others and is neglected because the teacher also has special needs kids there to will you just say nothing?

partyguinness

While I personally have no issues with teachers pay etc (prob because my earnings are far more than teachers..but then agian I dont have job security).

I am annoyed about the lack of accountability...crap teachers that cant be removed...we all had them in school (I had a teacher that was regularly sent home drunk...sacked? disciplined? of course not:mad:)...but job for life and all that..they harp on about the private sector but a good amount of crap teachers wouldnt last a week in the private sector...that seems to be completely lost on them.

Catari Jaguar

This is my story/ view. Don't want to be attacked, I'm not attacking anyone.

Teachers were annoyed at the cutbacks, prefabs, cuts in Special Education and language support, job losses for SNAs, learning support and language support teachers. There were protest marches, letters to councillors/ ministers, plenty of angry members and topics on educationposts.ie. You can check back to see when the anger started.

This is the last straw. The injustice of it all, the fat cats, the unemployment,the smoke screens, the govt fcuk ups time and time again. But to try and tax their way out of a recession and have these underhand "pension levys" is a JOKE.

I'm 24. Second year out. Pay scale 4 because I have no higher degree and no dip yet. I think I've been frozen there. I'm also on deductions of nearly 500e a fortnight with Tax, PRSI, pension, pension levy, INTO etc etc...

That's a massive chunk of my salary. Luckily I don't have kids. Luckily I have a permanent job. Lots of my friends went traveling and can hardly even get maternity cover. I know I'll never be a millionaire, I'll be comfortable in a low risk job I enjoy doing. I've always wanted to teach, all this stuff going on is making it so complicated and depressing.

Honestly, I didn't vote strike action because I do feel that I am in an ok position. Better off than many jobless, worse off than many (of greedy wealthy people higher up). I don't want to strike, I'd rather the money for that day (!) I'd rather be teaching. I just want some equality. I think that's what this is about really.

ejmaztec

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Are they buying these properties just using their wages or from other sources?
Here are the teacher pay scales. scales.http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html

Wages, savings, loans where necessary for buy-to-lets. All of the hobby-farming takes place on inherited land.

ntlbell

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Teachers are constantly campaigning on conditions, cutbacks etc. I agree with you money is probably the biggest factor but not the only one. Don't see any of the unions claiming otherwise.

so they "campaign" for better conditions for the kids

but they go on strike when it's their own pocket

at least there's some honesty now

partyguinness

Lil Kitten wrote: »

This is my story/ view. Don't want to be attacked, I'm not attacking anyone.

Teachers were annoyed at the cutbacks, prefabs, cuts in Special Education and language support, job losses for SNAs, learning support and language support teachers. There were protest marches, letters to councillors/ ministers, plenty of angry members and topics on educationposts.ie. You can check back to see when the anger started.

This is the last straw. The injustice of it all, the fat cats, the unemployment,the smoke screens, the govt fcuk ups time and time again. But to try and tax their way out of a recession and have these underhand "pension levys" is a JOKE.

I'm 24. Second year out. Pay scale 4 because I have no higher degree and no dip yet. I think I've been frozen there. I'm also on deductions of nearly 500e a fortnight with Tax, PRSI, pension, pension levy, INTO etc etc...

That's a massive chunk of my salary. Luckily I don't have kids. Luckily I have a permanent job. Lots of my friends went traveling and can hardly even get maternity cover. I know I'll never be a millionaire, I'll be comfortable in a low risk job I enjoy doing. I've always wanted to teach, all this stuff going on is making it so complicated and depressing.

Honestly, I didn't vote strike action because I do feel that I am in an ok position. Better off than many jobless, worse off than many (of greedy wealthy people higher up). I don't want to strike, I'd rather the money for that day (!) I'd rather be teaching. I just want some equality. I think that's what this is about really.

I am not attacking you...but you see the pension cuts etc are the price teachers pay for:-

1. Secure job = Guaranteed wage
2. Guaranteed pension
3. Generous holiday, allowances etc

while the rest of the work force are losing their jobs.This seems to be completely lost on teachers. They dont realise how good they have it compared to the rest of the workforce. Everyone is taking a hit.

The public sector need to appreciate what they have and not moan about what they dont have. I took a 20% cut in wages at the start of the month and I am down €1,200 net a month..gone from my bank account...thats life.

Alcatel

I'm just giggling at the TUI referenced salary scales. Given that the average industrial wage was somewhere about 33,000 euro PA before this recession kicked off, I don't think it's a bad number to start off on €32,599 PA out of college, rising by about a grand a year after that, if I read it correctly?

The allowances are also pretty damn neat, be it for a principal or deputy (after how many years service do they usually get that billet?).

Hourly rates are just funny. €50.34 for supervision and substitution. If I recall correctly, plenty of substitutes stand in simply to make sure nobody throws a char at anyone else, and do nothing further with the class. Not bad, not bad at all.

They can bugger off.

jimmmy

ejmaztec wrote: »

Yes, in my work, I've seen a lot of teachers with buy-to-lets,

and holiday homes....so have I too. I have no sympathy for them or other public servants. They have good secure , pensionable employment not comparable to most people. Their pay needs to be reduced 20%.

bobbyjoe

ntlbell wrote: »

so they "campaign" for better conditions for the kids

but they go on strike when it's their own pocket

at least there's some honesty now

I think you are right. But the other factors are also a big issue not just for teachers.

ejmaztec

Alcatel wrote: »

I'm just giggling at the TUI referenced salary scales. Given that the average industrial wage was somewhere about 33,000 euro PA before this recession kicked off, I don't think it's a bad number to start off on €32,599 PA out of college, rising by about a grand a year after that, if I read it correctly?

The allowances are also pretty damn neat, be it for a principal or deputy (after how many years service do they usually get that billet?).

Hourly rates are just funny. €50.34 for supervision and substitution. If I recall correctly, plenty of substitutes stand in simply to make sure nobody throws a char at anyone else, and do nothing further with the class. Not bad, not bad at all.

I see no peanuts....

Alcatel wrote: »

They can bugger off.

I think that sums it up.

Sleepy

Alcatel wrote: »

I'm just giggling at the TUI referenced salary scales. Given that the average industrial wage was somewhere about 33,000 euro PA before this recession kicked off, I don't think it's a bad number to start off on €32,599 PA out of college, rising by about a grand a year after that, if I read it correctly?

Looking at the same page:


First year salary for a teacher with a second class honours degree and a h. dip ed.:

Basic: €32,599
Allowance for degree: Primary Degree (1st or 2nd Hons) €5,177
Allowance for h. dip: H. Dip in Ed. (1st or 2nd Hons) €1,299

Total: €39075 + Pension

Not bad at all for someone straight out of college who only has to work 8 months of the year...

It may not be a fair comparison since when I started off with a B.Comm and H. Dip in Systems Analysis (both second class honours) it was 6 years ago but my starting salary at that qualification level was €22,000 p.a. with 20 days holidays + public holidays and that was pretty typical for someone starting in IT at the time.

bobbyjoe

Sleepy wrote: »

Looking at the same page:


First year salary for a teacher with a second class honours degree and a h. dip ed.:

Basic: €32,599
Allowance for degree: Primary Degree (1st or 2nd Hons) €5,177
Allowance for h. dip: H. Dip in Ed. (1st or 2nd Hons) €1,299

Total: €39075 + Pension

Not bad at all for someone straight out of college who only has to work 8 months of the year...

It may not be a fair comparison since when I started off with a B.Comm and H. Dip in Systems Analysis (both second class honours) it was 6 years ago but my starting salary at that qualification level was €22,000 p.a. with 20 days holidays + public holidays and that was pretty typical for someone starting in IT at the time.

Anyone know what the actual take home pay is after tax levies etc?

Alcatel

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Anyone know what the actual take home pay is after tax levies etc?

I'd be guessing there, but let's assume 32,599 and not the higher figure for the moment, it'd be 520 a week take home after everything the rest of us have to pay, before the pension's levy which, for somebody earning that much comes to... Anyone? Let's say 7%, the common figure? Then it's 483.60

That's pseudo math, mind you, and it's based on the lowest figure.

Getting a grand a year in increase, no matter how much they're taxing on it, is not a bad number.

Not to mention June, July and August (or just July and August, but with a shorter working day).

ixoy

Alcatel wrote: »

I'd be guessing there, but let's assume 32,599 and not the higher figure for the moment, it'd be 520 a week take home after everything the rest of us have to pay, before the pension's levy which, for somebody earning that much comes to... Anyone? Let's say 7%, the common figure? Then it's 483.60

It's more than that - don't forget tax relief on that levy.

Getting a grand a year in increase, no matter how much they're taxing on it, is not a bad number.

Yep - be interesting to know how much their home pay increases each year, even factoring in the fact their levy may go up. It'll depend on length of service, etc. but the increments are something that's known but often kept quiet about when they're talking about their pay.

Sleepy

Why discount the higher figure? How many teachers are there that don't have a primary degree and a h. dip? I was under the impression that this was pretty much the minimum requirement to becoming a teacher in this country?

Granted I used the figures for 1st or 2nd class honours but how many Arts / Commerce / Science students graduate with less than a 2:2? And, if someone can't manage more than a 2:2 in an Arts degree do we really want them teaching our kids?

I've no idea as to the value of the defined benefit pension but I'd assume it'd be pretty significant - perhaps in the region of 10% I'd definitely expect this to be included in any salary figure before allowing the levy to be discounted for comparison purposes.

To be honest, I was actually surprised at how high the salary is. A starting salary that would be over 40k if you include the net benefit of the pension (after discounting the levy) for 8 months work is pretty generous if you ask me...

oh well

I think that part of the reason that teachers aren't in the real world is that they are dealing with children day in day out. In the most part the children will agree with what the teachers tell them (ok there can be some sh*t stirrers in each class) but I know that if teacher tells kids something, its FACT. Now I could have told my kids the same thing 20 times and they wouldn't belive it. Teachers know this is the case and from what I can see, they then start believing everything they say themselves. I've an aggregate of 25 years dealing with variety of teachers through my own kids and I've found this the case in the vast majority of them.

As an extra point, I can't understand why it takes sooooo long for homework or tests to be corrected and given back. Teachers are continuously talking about all the extra hours they have to do correcting stuff but why then do so many of them take weeks to correct stuff. Its not constructive to children if their mistakes are only pointed out to them weeks after the chapter has been finished.

Nice pay scales, interesting reading there. Agreed that its only now that its affecting their pay packets that they are striking.

population

oh well wrote: »

As an extra point, I can't understand why it takes sooooo long for homework or tests to be corrected and given back. Teachers are continuously talking about all the extra hours they have to do correcting stuff but why then do so many of them take weeks to correct stuff. Its not constructive to children if their mistakes are only pointed out to them weeks after the chapter has been finished.

I know this does not relate specifically to primary/secondary teachers, but I am currently finishing a degree having gone back to college at the age of 31 having worked for 15 years in the private sector.

I am astonished by how handy my lecturers have it and how lazily they go about their business. One lecturer in particular is coasting like nobody I have ever seen in any walk of industry.He just puts slides up and then reads them out.

He has two papers awaiting correction from the class since before Xmas and still has not marked them. When I quizzed him on what is the hold up (politely I'll add) he just got thick and said 'they'll be marked when I mark them'.

Seriously we are about the same age and he is just that obtuse when asked about essentially his productivity and responds to legitimate queries by treating me like a 4 yr old! I could feckin strangle him aaarrrggghhhh!!!!

mike65

So then rolling strikes from September, but apparently this won't harm any children. If thats the case then why bother? Or do striking teachers effect others unknown to me?

population

Oh and he braggs constantly about his holiday home. Comes back from every single 'reading week' with a topped up suntan, and without even a whiff of irony moans about the levy and tells the students he is ready for an indefinite strike:eek:

I thought he was already on one:rolleyes:

LBD

Im not a teacher...my mum is and has been for thirty years. I have subbed for her on occassion and believe me the low number of times I have subbed is for a good reason......its a draining and stressful job where the wellbeing of "precious jimmy" etc is entrusted to you by certain parents who make you feel as if you should be honoured to be in their presence.....obviously not all parents are like this, a rather loud minority are however.
My main point however are these holidays people continually moan about....4months. I'll admit im biased due to my mother but also I get to look at it practically. What EXACTLY is the alternative to their holidays? Would you rather kids stayed in school 365days a year....Im sure ye all would have loved that when ye were in school. I've had years of listening to my mum defending herself to the odd loud mouth person who has nothing better to moan about. Go to college....do the course but more importantly do the job and then we'll see how you feel about the holidays. Everyone in this country has the choice to become a teacher so if the benefits are so great do it and best of luck!!!

Apologies more of a rant but really it had to be said.

ntlbell

LBD wrote: »

Im not a teacher...my mum is and has been for thirty years. I have subbed for her on occassion and believe me the low number of times I have subbed is for a good reason......its a draining and stressful job where the wellbeing of "precious jimmy" etc is entrusted to you by certain parents who make you feel as if you should be honoured to be in their presence.....obviously not all parents are like this, a rather loud minority are however.
My main point however are these holidays people continually moan about....4months. I'll admit im biased due to my mother but also I get to look at it practically. What EXACTLY is the alternative to their holidays? Would you rather kids stayed in school 365days a year....Im sure ye all would have loved that when ye were in school. I've had years of listening to my mum defending herself to the odd loud mouth person who has nothing better to moan about. Go to college....do the course but more importantly do the job and then we'll see how you feel about the holidays. Everyone in this country has the choice to become a teacher so if the benefits are so great do it and best of luck!!!

Apologies more of a rant but really it had to be said.

we all have stressful jobs teaching is just another stressful job

it's not an excuse this is not about if it's stressful or not if it was teachers would be well up there but it has nothing to do with it

teachers no whats involved (they went to school)

but most people dont get 4 months off to de-stress

i dont want to become a teacher i made the choice not to your mother made the choice to do so, now get on with it

weiss

population wrote: »

...

I am astonished by how handy my lecturers have it and how lazily they go about their business. ...

He has two papers awaiting correction from the class since before Xmas and still has not marked them. ...

i've heard the same stories about many lecturers for years, not surprised at all.

They have no idea how easy they have it.

Heard some BS about some "turning to the bottle" ...ffs, what planet are they on?

LBD

I never told you to become a teacher nor did i ask anyone to feel sorry for any teachers merely if teachers conditions upset people so much go off and do it yourself!

population

LBD wrote: »

nor did i ask anyone to feel sorry for any teachers

yes you did

LBD

No.......no I didnt!!!!! Read my original post there, slowly if you have to!

brianthebard

population wrote: »

Oh and he brags constantly about his holiday home. Comes back from every single 'reading week' with a topped up suntan, and without even a whiff of irony moans about the levy and tells the students he is ready for an indefinite strike:eek:

I thought he was already on one:rolleyes:

Not everyone is good at their job. Shocking I know, but it doesn't negate the collective grievances of a profession. I'd love to see some of the people who say that teachers have it easy (not directed at you population) try doing it themselves for a while. I've very little experience myself but it takes a lot of effort to devise lesson plans, try and work on students weaknesses, get the right level of difficulty in lessons, and a million and one other things that won't be readily apparent to a student or non teacher observing.