Are the teachers living in the real world?

ixoy

mike65 wrote: »

So then rolling strikes from September, but apparently this won't harm any children. If thats the case then why bother? Or do striking teachers effect others unknown to me?

Oh I've read it that they're still planning industrial action outside of the September protests. The one in September are based on the cutbacks, the ones to come over the horrendous and terrible levy.

patchquinn

Some teachers do live in the real world, but they are not the ones shouting the loudest.

LBD wrote: »

I never told you to become a teacher nor did i ask anyone to feel sorry for any teachers merely if teachers conditions upset people so much go off and do it yourself!

I did. I used to be a teacher, young and idealistic back in 96/97, the start of the Tiger. I taught in two great schools. The staff rooms in both schools were split between what I, and the kids, would call good teachers and crap teachers. The good teachers knew who the crap teachers were; they were generally the ones scowling or making snide comments about students. The good teachers seldom sat with the crap teachers. The good teachers saw their job as a vocation. The crap teachers saw themselves under valued, under stress, and under paid. The good teachers were respected in the class room. The crap teachers constantly spoke about lack of discipline. Good teachers saw problematic children as sad cases that needed their help, these kids were the reason they got into the job. The crap teacher saw these kids as trouble makers; a reason to get out of the job. But they didn’t get out of the job. They stayed and they complained.
Looking around I saw some who despite being crap at their jobs, had job security for life, and no matter how great or ****e others were the pay path was beyond their control. Some people like that security. I didn’t, at the time. I wanted more. I looked at what people were supposedly getting in IT or the real world, and I thought, ‘I want some of that’. A lot of the other teachers thought so too. But they wanted it through union intervention, they made comparisons with exceptional performers in Industry with similar qualifications. The crap teachers who couldn’t be the alpha male/female in a class of 12-18 year olds thought that they would be an alpha in industry. They demanded benchmarking. There was a lot of talk about strikes. Then we broke for summer. I never came back.
A lot of teachers come straight out of school into college and back into school again. It doesn’t seem like a real life, because it isn’t. It is sheltered and they are surrounded by kids all the time. Oh Well’s statement earlier about how this effects teachers thinking is true for many teachers, especially those who don’t have a sideline business that lets them deal with adults. It is not true of all teachers and some of the teachers I met are truly inspirational. But I am tired of hearing the less inspirational ones whine “it’s unfair that we should have to pay for the bankers….unfair that we should have to pay a levy, unfair this unfair that….. it’s unfair we did nothing wrong!” Maybe I am making an unfair comparison but it seems only children and some teachers seem to think the world is unfair to them. The world just is. It’s not fair or unfair. It just is.

I was a damn good teacher, I know this from the respect I got from students, fellow teachers, and principals, and from the fact that even after quitting teaching I earned thousands of black market pounds for the next three to four years giving private grinds in English, maths and Physics (until the changes the English leaving cert curriculum,). I entered the real world and have traveled and worked in other cultures, am relatively successful and still young. I earn enough to keep me happy, but I would definitely be better off financially if I had stayed as a teacher. (Not just salary but pension and factoring in the time value of the relatively high salary of a graduate.) But that’s not what I did, I am not complaining, I made my choices. I might return to teaching later in life because, while the pay is nothing to shout about, there is no reward comparable to seeing a light of understanding or confidence switch on behind the eyes and smile of someone you have just helped. And the holidays!!…man I would kill for those breaks…… ..unreal…

The problem is not that we are upset with teacher conditions. It is that we are upset that they are upset with their conditions. un-fing-believable

nesf

population wrote: »

Oh and he braggs constantly about his holiday home. Comes back from every single 'reading week' with a topped up suntan, and without even a whiff of irony moans about the levy and tells the students he is ready for an indefinite strike:eek:

I thought he was already on one:rolleyes:

There are wasters working in the third level system similar to primary and secondary ones. Generalising from them to cover all of their colleagues is neither fair nor accurate and honestly just undermines your argument which has a good point (i.e. get rid of the lazy ones).

Also, if you think lecturers have it easy, try publishing in decent journals and stay doing so. It's not as trivial as it may look. Publish or perish etc.

ntlbell

LBD wrote: »

I never told you to become a teacher nor did i ask anyone to feel sorry for any teachers merely if teachers conditions upset people so much go off and do it yourself!

the problem i have is they didn't go on strike because of the conditions

and a rep for them this morning on pat kenny said they're not going on strike for conditions this for money

and there will be a SEPARATE CAMPAIGN for conditions campaign my arse

they wouldn't go on strike for the kids but they will for themselves

sickening

population

LBD wrote: »

its a draining and stressful job where the wellbeing of "precious jimmy" etc is entrusted to you by certain parents who make you feel as if you should be honoured to be in their presence.....obviously not all parents are like this, a rather loud minority are however.

I've had years of listening to my mum defending herself to the odd loud mouth person who has nothing better to moan about.

Ok

I read it slowly (not as slowly as some teachers seem to read papers before correction mind)

You are trying to drum up sympathies with the above statements.

population

nesf wrote: »

There are wasters working in the third level system similar to primary and secondary ones. Generalising from them to cover all of their colleagues is neither fair nor accurate and honestly just undermines your argument which has a good point (i.e. get rid of the lazy ones).

Also, if you think lecturers have it easy, try publishing in decent journals and stay doing so. It's not as trivial as it may look. Publish or perish etc.

I am referring to one individual. I take your point. I did my first two years distant learning and my lecturers were generally excellent. However this is my first year full time and I am somewhat surprised at some of the carry on.

population

brianthebard wrote: »

Not everyone is good at their job. Shocking I know, but it doesn't negate the collective grievances of a profession. I'd love to see some of the people who say that teachers have it easy (not directed at you population) try doing it themselves for a while. I've very little experience myself but it takes a lot of effort to devise lesson plans, try and work on students weaknesses, get the right level of difficulty in lessons, and a million and one other things that won't be readily apparent to a student or non teacher observing.

It sounds like you personally put in a lot of work. Therefore I deem you to be a real asset to the teaching profession and our children. I hope you continue to teach for a long time.

The issue I have is with those who put in no effort and are unsackable for some bizarre reason

Gael23

No is my honest answer. While I in no way support what the government is doing, I thinkteachers sometimes try to portray themselves as the only victims.

MG

A lot of teachers are losers. All trade unionists are losers. Teaching Unions are therefore full of losers.

I feel sorry for the genuine teachers who are appalled by the behaviour of the unions.

brianthebard

population wrote: »

It sounds like you personally put in a lot of work. Therefore I deem you to be a real asset to the teaching profession and our children. I hope you continue to teach for a long time.

The issue I have is with those who put in no effort and are unsackable for some bizarre reason

That's a fair point and I don't think many people would have a problem with it, its just important not to tar everyone with the same brush. I'm not personally offended, I just know the amount of work that some of my lecturers and teachers have put in over the years and hate to see them and their profession lambasted by those who aren't willing to look at things from a different perspective.

oh well

LBD wrote: »

Im not a teacher...my mum is and has been for thirty years. I have subbed for her on occassion and believe me the low number of times I have subbed is for a good reason......its a draining and stressful job where the wellbeing of "precious jimmy" etc is entrusted to you by certain parents who make you feel as if you should be honoured to be in their presence.....obviously not all parents are like this, a rather loud minority are however.
.

Every single job has stress and teaching is no more stressful than any other job. In every single job people have problems dealing with other people who think you should be honoured to work with them. The one thing in a teacher's favour is that prior to graduating and taking their first job, every single teacher out there has experienced the job from the other side. Granted they wouldn't be fully aware of the stresses but they surely aren't stupid either and they are trained in psychology. What is also in a teacher's favour is that they have very favourable work hours so therefore have plenty of time to destress themselves. Whatever else teachers want to moan about, please don't think you are the only people who have stress in your lives.

nesf

population wrote: »

The issue I have is with those who put in no effort and are unsackable for some bizarre reason

This is a bugbear for many inside the institutions themselves, believe me.

population

nesf wrote: »

This is a bugbear for many inside the institutions themselves, believe me.

Then they need to come out and march against that as well if they are to gain a credible bargaining posistion

nesf

population wrote: »

Then they need to come out and march against that as well if they are to gain a credible bargaining posistion

Yeah, that's a non-runner and you know that as well as I do.

population

nesf wrote: »

Yeah, that's a non-runner and you know that as well as I do.

dave-higgz

I'm in TY and while I wouldn't mind the day(s) off I don't want this strike to go ahead. Firstly I don't know why teachers are going to strike instead of guards or nurses. They take much more crap than teachers do from a minority of disruptive students in most cases. Guards deal with assholes everyday, every hour and so their cut should be less than teachers, and that's what this strike is about, the money.

The education cuts have been known for months now and no attempt was made to strike when they were announced. It's only been after the pension levy and after the budget that the troops are rallied to strike. I've felt the anxiety that hangs over the junior cert and I can't even to begin to imagine the fear felt by 6th years in preparation for the leaving cert. A day lost should be a day spent with expertise to guide them through the grueling exam regime and we just can't strip students of this time so close to june.

If a strike is announced I will do everything in my power to keep my school open even if it's only for the exam years. Greedy teachers (I say this in utmost respect and in recognition of their hard work in lesson preparation etc.) can't claim to represent students interests when they are clearly messing with the phycology of innocent kids. They only represent their pockets and the same goes for the unions. That's the job of a union. The students are coming second in all of this and we can't let it happen. What will be the case in 2 years when I sit my LC? week long strikes. It's madness and no one should stand for it. I say any teacher who strikes should be sacked or be stripped of a significant amount of their pay. They're lucky to be in a relatively secure, decent paid, pensionable, socially active job and that's the bottom line!!

gurramok

No, they are not living in the real world. http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0416/teachers.html

According to the data, the average male teacher earns €64,000 per annum, while the average female earns €56,000

An overpaid bunch.

dodgyme

gurramok wrote: »

No, they are not living in the real world. http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0416/teachers.html



An overpaid bunch.

I rem years ago - around 1999ish and there was a teachers conference in sligo. rte were asking the teachers outside the conference why they wanted a big increase in their wages. The teachers explained that they created the boom by the work they had done in educating the masses. I thought to myself what a loada crap for many reasons. Now they are there saying its not their fault and they are taking the wrap for bankers etc. Hang on a second are these not the same bankers that you educated to create the boom. Shower of clowns living in the soft pillowy cushioned mattress of the PS.

bobbyjoe

gurramok wrote: »

No, they are not living in the real world. http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0416/teachers.html



An overpaid bunch.

What age is the average teacher?

yop

gurramok wrote: »

No, they are not living in the real world. http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0416/teachers.html



An overpaid bunch.

Spotted that, great pay for a working 3/4 the normal working day and 1/4 the year off on holidays.
God but I regret the day I didnt do teaching

gurramok

bobbyjoe wrote: »

What age is the average teacher?

Whats that got to do with it?

A new starter starts on €32k, that is a very good wage for a newcomer in the first year.
The vast majority of teachers are pissed off at their wages, not just the new starters. We don't see only new starters striking do we??


Have a look at this. Cry me a river, where are the violins?
http://www.independent.ie/education/...k-1708454.html

THIS is the 26-year-old primary teacher who yesterday confronted Education Minister Batt O'Keeffe over how the new levies have left her with just €94 a week.

Anna O'Loughlin, a language support teacher at St Gabriel's National School, Dublin 7, demanded a meeting with the minister before he departed the Irish National Teachers Organisation (INTO) conference.

She said that -- after paying her mortgage and bills -- she was left with €94 a week after paying the income, health and pension levies.

Ms O'Loughlin was one of about 40 delegates who walked out of the conference in protest at Government cuts, when the minister rose to speak.

Mr O'Keeffe spoke to her privately for about 15 minutes, when she told him that her €300,000 fixed rate mortgage on her three-bedroomed terraced home was costing her €1,650 a month.

She said she was paid about €40,000 a year and even with additional income of €400 a month rent from a tenant, after all her outgoings, such as utility bills and insurance were paid, she was left with €94 a week.

Ms O'Loughlin said the recent embargo had denied her an opportunity to take up a promotional post, which would have been worth €4,000.

"I am left with €94 a week after paying my mortgage, which was taken out two years ago when prices were at their peak, and after paying other bills."

Its all coming out now.

This muppet at 26yrs of age on a good wage of €40kpa overpaid for her €300k house and wants us the taxpayer to give her money to pay for her mortgage.

Where is the responsibility of that decision, did she not do her homework first?

dodgyme

here is 'sum' maths

av teacher earns 60k= way too much for a secure cushy number with pension and great benefits.

spank_inferno

I'd love to have €100 disposable income per week!

Are teachers living in the real world?

The answer is a resounding No, its always been the case and always will be.

end of thread :pac:

bobbyjoe

gurramok wrote: »

Whats that got to do with it?

A new starter starts on €32k, that is a very good wage for a newcomer in the first year.

If you want to use the average wage as a stick to bash teachers then you need to know the average age also, ie how long they have been teaching.

dodgyme

bobbyjoe wrote: »

If you want to use the average wage as a stick to bash teachers then you need to know the average age also, ie how long they have been teaching.

oh ya the word 'service' ? No one ever turns up at a meeting in the private sector and goes "but look, I have given 10 yrs service to the company". They's be told can you do the job and if you cant f$ck off. Av teacher 60k nuff said. About time this concept of service was put to bed. Teacher think because they have a degree that is enough.

TheKat

Tuesday's Indo: On the pension and other levies, Mr Kelleher [president of INTO] said teachers were more than prepared to pay their fair share towards economic recovery "but we must see equity and fairness applied from the top down".

The issue for him is more about tax exiles, property tycoons etc not taking a fair hit and the cutbacks in spending on education, not teachers not wanting to pay the levy.

I have no problem and am glad to take a pay cut (cos that is effectively what the pension levy is, i won't be seeing the effects of it in my pension that's for sure). In my circle of close friends, luckily none of them have been hit with any cuts in wages/hours other than the income levy. There is no way I can complain about my cut though, as I know others who've been made redundant or have come back from travelling to bleak prospects.

On the issue of pay, straight out of college I would have started off better than my friends, but their salaries would increase at a much bigger rate than mine but that's just the way it goes.

It's upset me a bit how people's attitudes to teachers have come across in this thread. I do the best for the kids in my class, it can be very stressful (and before anyone jumps in that doesn't mean that no one else has a stressful job!!), I may have a shorter working day but with 30 infants you have to be "on" for every minute of that day.

The income and pension levies are a pain but for me the biggest issue is the cut in Education spending, increase in class sizes mean we now have a lovely new extension on our school with no new teachers to teach in it while there are big classes throughout the school. If anyone is sick there are no longer sub teachers to take over so the kids have to spend the day in someone else's class missing out on a day's learning, funding for libraries special needs etc slashed. I've been at marches and protests since last October so if people say that teachers are only kicking off now maybe they just didn't listen before!!

It says something for Ireland that after years of economic growth, our classes are still amongst the most overcrowded in Europe. And going to be worse from September.

So that's it really.... resume attacking how I'm overpaid and don't care about my kids!

AARRRGH

The problem, I'm afraid, is that teachers spend their lives bossing people about, so they cannot handle someone else telling them what to do.

They also spend most of their lives around children, having extreme authority over everything around them.

These people do not live in the real world.

I feel like hitting them over the head with a maths book while I shout THE COUNTRY CANNOT AFFORD YOU ANYMORE, GET IT? GET IT?

Seth Brundle

I read all the way through to page 3 and then gave up.
Some people just want to moan without knowing the full reality.

Not all teachers wanted to strike recently - my wife didn't (I don't think she was even asked)! She did partake in the protests in the city centre some months back but didn't want to strike.

She works hard every day. She comes home and spends another few hours working, marking or preparing classes. She did a number of unpaid tasks within the school (e.g. she looked after the fire safety equipment and also managed the stockbook).

As with most jobs, there are good times and bad times. One of the 'perks' is that she gets decent holidays. To those who begrudge them the time off, what should they do were they not given the holidays? Should the kids stay in school all year round? If there was only 21 days off per year (like most in the private sector) would you be willing to pay them more to put up with the brats?

As for crap teachers - yes there are loads within the system and generally the good teachers have to carry them. The fact that they aren't sacked is not beacuse of the teachers!

Also remember that part of what teachers are complaining about is cuts in the overall budget. If a school can't hire substitutes then they can't permit field trips, etc. As for the special needs assistants, whilst they weren't around really when I was in school (70 and 80s), we managed. However, what if your kid is weak and needs help? The weaker children are not realistically going to be able to get the care they need. What will happen non english speaking kids now? Will they sit at the back and play with crayons whilst the rest of the class learns trigonometry?

Lastly, the pay isn't that great. Like many others we just about get by. Someone mentioned the average teachers pay, whilst 'er indoors has been teaching for something like ten years, she is nowhere near that figure! Out of curiosity, what is the average wage for someone of equal talent within the private sector? If the money, time off, etc. are that good then sign up - otherwise STFU!

AARRRGH

kbannon wrote: »

Lastly, the pay isn't that great. Like many others we just about get by. Someone mentioned the average teachers pay, whilst 'er indoors has been teaching for something like ten years, she is nowhere near that figure! Out of curiosity, what is the average wage for someone of equal talent within the private sector? If the money, time off, etc. are that good then sign up - otherwise STFU!

The pay is excellent considering the many benefits.

population

patchquinn wrote: »

A lot of teachers come straight out of school into college and back into school again. It doesn’t seem like a real life, because it isn’t. It is sheltered and they are surrounded by kids all the time. Oh Well’s statement earlier about how this effects teachers thinking is true for many teachers, especially those who don’t have a sideline business that lets them deal with adults.

This is an excellent point