Are the teachers living in the real world?

gurramok · 16-04-2009 11:47am

kbannon wrote:

Out of curiosity, what is the average wage for someone of equal talent within the private sector? If the money, time off, etc. are that good then sign up - otherwise STFU!

Does it mattter? We don't see highly paid private sector workers monaing, they have no choice as they can lose their job and some have taken huge paycuts.

If a teacher cannot live on only 'around' 60k, they have serious maths issues.

The average industrial wage is about 33k and the average wage for the private sector depending on one who believes ranges from 30k to 40k. Nowhere near 60k.

Seth Brundle · 16-04-2009 11:55am

The only reason you see teachers moaning is because some of them attended union conferences recently. Were similar conferences held for private sector unions and addressed by a government minister, would they stay quiet?

As for the 60k, no teacher that I know is earning that figure. I'm surprised that the average is over 60k given the following: http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html
Bear in mind that my wife does not get substitute allowances, etc. nor (AFAIK) is the pension worth talking about nor does she get VHI, etc.

TheKat · 16-04-2009 11:58am

http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/teacher_scales.htm

You'd have to be working over 20 years to get anywhere close to 60k. 6.5% of that also automatically goes towards your pension.

Jip · 16-04-2009 12:00pm

It seems to me that one of the main problems the teachers have here is that they went and got very large mortgages based on the fact they have a permanent job. They had this belief that their income was wrapped in a protective blanket and would never be affected by the goings on in the real world that everyone else in the private sector have to deal with. Who's to blame is another matter, the teachers for taking a silly mortgage that even during the good times was a stretch to meet, or the banks for giving such large mortgages purely based on their career.

Either way it's absolutely pathetic to see teachers on t.v. and hear them on the radio complain about how much their mortgages are and how are they now going to afford them. They need a good slap of a duster to get them out of their insular gaze and see that everyone else in the country are in the same boat, you could argue that those in the private sector are in a worse situation.

Have you ever seen such selfishness, I suppose they hang around kids long enough they start to act like them.

AARRRGH · 16-04-2009 12:01pm

TheKat wrote:

http://www.education.ie/servlet/blob...her_scales.htm

You'd have to be working over 20 years to get anywhere close to 60k. 6.5% of that also automatically goes towards your pension.

So a 41 year old teacher will be on 60k.

What's your point? That teachers earn huge money?

Viscosity · 16-04-2009 12:25pm

Jip wrote: »

It seems to me that one of the main problems the teachers have here is that they went and got very large mortgages based on the fact they have a permanent job. They had this belief that their income was wrapped in a protective blanket and would never be affected by the goings on in the real world that everyone else in the private sector have to deal with. Who's to blame is another matter, the teachers for taking a silly mortgage that even during the good times was a stretch to meet, or the banks for giving such large mortgages purely based on their career.

Either way it's absolutely pathetic to see teachers on t.v. and hear them on the radio complain about how much their mortgages are and how are they now going to afford them. They need a good slap of a duster to get them out of their insular gaze and see that everyone else in the country are in the same boat, you could argue that those in the private sector are in a worse situation.

Have you ever seen such selfishness, I suppose they hang around kids long enough they start to act like them.

Maybe its an undiagnosed personality issue....
http://www2.vhi.ie/topic/adam1000934

The female delegate who confronted B O'K has a bit of a nerve to be honest :rolleyes: The government has its own liquidity problems, they are also committed to levels of spending above their means! As soon as she's borrowing around a third of her expenditure, then she can complain to Batt!

TheKat · 16-04-2009 12:38pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

So a 41 year old teacher will be on 60k.

What's your point? That teachers earn huge money?

My points is everyone's talking about this average wage of 60k but it would be 20 years before you see that. 20 years is a long time- sure that's nearly as long as I've been alive. Do you not think it's a fair wage considering all the work that will go into that time (actually I'm probably wasting my time asking that, amn't I!)?
I have accountant friends nearly earning that already after 4 years out of college!

AARRRGH · 16-04-2009 12:51pm

TheKat wrote: »

My points is everyone's talking about this average wage of 60k but it would be 20 years before you see that. 20 years is a long time- sure that's nearly as long as I've been alive. Do you not think it's a fair wage considering all the work that will go into that time (actually I'm probably wasting my time asking that, amn't I!)?
I have accountant friends nearly earning that already after 4 years out of college!

There are three problems with your argument -

1. ALL TEACHERS are threatening to go on strike, not just the young ones who earn less than 60k.

2. Accountants aren't threatening to go on strike.

3. Comparing the plight of teachers with one of the best paid jobs in Ireland (i.e. accountancy) is a tad ridiculous.

Viscosity · 16-04-2009 12:57pm

TheKat wrote: »

My points is everyone's talking about this average wage of 60k but it would be 20 years before you see that. 20 years is a long time- sure that's nearly as long as I've been alive. Do you not think it's a fair wage considering all the work that will go into that time (actually I'm probably wasting my time asking that, amn't I!)?
I have accountant friends nearly earning that already after 4 years out of college!

I don't think you can directly compare teachers salaries with accountants. Assuming these accountants work in the private sector, their salaries are, by and large, determined by the market for their skills and expertise and not just set through a centralised pay structure regardless of ability.

Secondly, these accountants have less holidays, less job security and little or no pension provision. I also wonder how many of them started on nearly 32k a year (not including the numerous allowances). Most trainee accountants start on 25-30 max and given recent developments, they can expect to be let go at the end of their training contract in the next few years.

P. Breathnach · 16-04-2009 1:01pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

... Comparing the plight of teachers with one of the best paid jobs in Ireland (i.e. accountancy) is a tad ridiculous.

As is comparing teachers' pay with the average industrial wage.

AARRRGH · 16-04-2009 1:03pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

As is comparing teachers' pay with the average industrial wage.

Silly.

A. Teachers are saying "but we earn less than accountants!" This is not a realistic or fair comparision for their hardship. Sure they may as well compare themselves to CEOs while they're at it.

B. Non-teachers are saying "but you earn a lot more than the average industrial wage". This is reasonable considering it contradicts everything teachers are saying. If non-teachers were saying "but you earn more than minimum wage" I'd agree with you.

P. Breathnach · 16-04-2009 1:12pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Silly... Non-teachers are saying "but you earn a lot more than the average industrial wage". This is reasonable considering it contradicts everything teachers are saying. If non-teachers were saying "but you earn more than minimum wage" I'd agree with you.

I am not saying that it is appropriate to compare teachers' remuneration with that of accountants.

In what way is it reasonable to compare teachers' pay to average industrial wage? The levels of qualification required and the type of work involved are completely different.

AARRRGH · 16-04-2009 1:17pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

In what way is it reasonable to compare teachers' pay to average industrial wage? The levels of qualification required and the type of work involved are completely different.

1. Teachers are complaining about how they cannot afford to live on their wage. Considering they earn a lot more money than the average person, this suggests the problem is the teacher's money management skills, not the wage.

2. Lots of people on the average wage (or less) also have degrees. An education does not entitle you to an above average wage.

ntlbell · 16-04-2009 1:26pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I am not saying that it is appropriate to compare teachers' remuneration with that of accountants.

In what way is it reasonable to compare teachers' pay to average industrial wage? The levels of qualification required and the type of work involved are completely different.

you do understand that the avg ind wage includes the vast majority from the bottom to the top right?

there not some robot in a manufacturing plant hitting a button right?

it includes senior management the whole lot

TheKat · 16-04-2009 1:30pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

There are three problems with your argument -

1. ALL TEACHERS are threatening to go on strike, not just the young ones who earn less than 60k.

2. Accountants aren't threatening to go on strike.

3. Comparing the plight of teachers with one of the best paid jobs in Ireland (i.e. accountancy) is a tad ridiculous.

I should have put more emphasis on the fact I feel entitled to a good wage after 20 years on the job, as anyone else should. I don't want an increase or for the government to change their mind on the levy.

I personally feel we have an important job and think that people are really dismissing the work that primary school teachers do.

A lot of teachers in my school actually don't want to go on strike. We were asked to vote on measures to oppose the cutbacks in education and industrial action was a Last resort. However all of a sudden this "day of action" was called for by ICTU and I don't think the INTO were right to support it seeing as how they hadn't even begun implementing their other strategies eg work to rule.

I am not opposed to the pension levy and I'm not here crying about my mortgage or pay cut or whatever else. My original point was that there is anger towards the cut in education spending and tax exiles getting away lightly coming from the teaching community. The kids can't complain about being in big classes themselves.

Of course you'll always have people opposing levies like that woman getting her 15 mins with Batt, she strikes me as someone on the edge of desparation venting her worries. I'm sure it's not just her or teachers that want to let the government know what they're going through cos of their mistakes. To her I would say cop on and do what we have to do, at least she still has a job. She would be an example of someone who is out of this world if she expects levy to be backtracked on, everyone in employment has to help out.

Forget accountants!! They were just an example! :pac:

gurramok · 16-04-2009 1:31pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I am not saying that it is appropriate to compare teachers' remuneration with that of accountants.

In what way is it reasonable to compare teachers' pay to average industrial wage? The levels of qualification required and the type of work involved are completely different.

You cannot seem to grasp that teachers are NOT poor when they are on an average of 60k a year.

Putting the poor mouth on for them is a con job considering the vast majority do not even earn near 60k.

AARRRGH · 16-04-2009 1:32pm

TheKat, the problem is the country cannot afford your wages anymore.

If you were being paid by a private company, I wouldn't give a damn, but unfortunately you're being paid by a semi-bankrupt government.

So the choices are -

A. Be selfish and continue watching the country's finances go down the drain
B. Accept reality and take a pay cut

TheKat · 16-04-2009 1:36pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

TheKat, the problem is the country cannot afford your wages anymore.

If you were being paid by a private company, I wouldn't give a damn, but unfortunately you're being paid by a semi-bankrupt government.

So the choices are -

A. Be selfish and continue watching the country's finances go down the drain
B. Accept reality and take a pay cut

I have already taken option B! I'm not complaining about it!!
I'm complaining about the increase in class size, the cut in funding for libraries, resources for traveller children, english as second language teachers being cut! The kids who are going to suffer as a result of all this!

dodgyme · 16-04-2009 1:37pm

TheKat wrote: »

I should have put more emphasis on the fact I feel entitled to a good wage after 20 years on the job, as anyone else should.

the private sector you are entitled to shag all regardless of how long you are in the job. If there is no work - you go, if you are not doing the job well - you go!. The problem with the PS is their sense of entitlement which proves they are not living in the real world after there schooling, then off to college then back to school.

ntlbell · 16-04-2009 1:40pm

[quote=TheKat;59849828
I'm complaining about the increase in class size, the cut in funding for libraries, resources for traveller children, english as second language teachers being cut! The kids who are going to suffer as a result of all this![/quote]

The teachers aren't going on strike for all the above tho?

they're campaigning for the above

but going on strike for the cuts to wages

this openly admitted by the teachers union's

why does this point keep having to be brought up?

if they were going on strike because of what you said above they would have FULL support of parents

but these problems have been there for years and they didn't strike

take their pay

they go on strike

you can see the issue here no?

TheKat · 16-04-2009 1:41pm

dodgyme wrote: »

the private sector you are entitled to shag all regardless of how long you are in the job. If there is no work - you go, if you are not doing the job well - you go!. The problem with the PS is their sense of entitlement which proves they are not living in the real world after there schooling, then off to college then back to school.

Are you going to assume the same of all public sector workers just because one wacko girl on the internet said it

TheKat · 16-04-2009 1:48pm

ntlbell I fully understand and I couldn't agree with you more. If anyone is to go on strike, it should only be for those issues. AFAIK though the unions don't presume that striking will turn around the levy decision? The original core issue of cuts seems to have got waylaid in the process and the government probably have no problem letting people's anger over teachers go on strike help them forget that their kids are getting fecked over.

Question: Do you think the unions would have been justified mooting strike action when all of the cuts were first made?

dodgyme · 16-04-2009 1:51pm

TheKat wrote: »

Are you going to assume the same of all public sector workers just because one wacko girl on the internet said it

and

TheKat wrote: »

20 years is a long time- sure that's nearly as long as I've been alive.!

QED

TheKat · 16-04-2009 1:56pm

dodgyme wrote: »

care to explain yourself. 'step by step' you should know this as a teacher. Put 'qed' at the end

You said the problem with the public sector was their sense of entitlement, I assumed that was based on what i said in my comment. I wouldn't want my comments to represent the view of everybody in the public sector!

I'm a nice teacher!! And i teach infants so there'll be no qed at the end. more like 2 +2 = 4!

ntlbell · 16-04-2009 1:56pm

TheKat wrote: »

Question: Do you think the unions would have been justified mooting strike action when all of the cuts were first made?

I think the unions should of been hammering out the protests during the boom years to get the kids better conditions and they would have had rampant support from the public and parents alike and the government would of been in a position to give them what they wanted.

Striking for money now when there's no money to give is futile and damaging to my daughters education, it's not very hard to see why I and most of the public are annoyed.

I think everyone appreciates what a great job the vast majority of teachers do and we know it's not easy it never will be.

TheKat · 16-04-2009 2:12pm

ntlbell wrote: »

I think the unions should of been hammering out the protests during the boom years to get the kids better conditions and they would have had rampant support from the public and parents alike and the government would of been in a position to give them what they wanted.

Striking for money now when there's no money to give is futile and damaging to my daughters education, it's not very hard to see why I and most of the public are annoyed.

I think everyone appreciates what a great job the vast majority of teachers do and we know it's not easy it never will be.

All true. The government in fairness did make positive steps like reducing class size only to increase again last October, and who knows possibly this year too. I really don't want it to come to strike but at least it would be no more than 2 days. I know the gov have feck all money to provide better education but when you read stuff like how much they've spent on their jet it makes you wonder.

As long as teachers and parents are at odds on this the government can get away with it anyway.

dodgyme · 16-04-2009 2:12pm

TheKat wrote: »

. more like 2 +2 = 4!

- pension levy;)

also on a side point, you are only a young teacher and probably full of the joys of the job. Perhaps in ten years you might just be more like the image Joe Public now has of teachers.

TheKat · 16-04-2009 2:25pm

dodgyme wrote: »

- pension levy;)

lol

Ahh you could be right, 10 years of getting puked on and cleaning up "accidents" and i still won't be close to that mythical 60k average salary

If I ever end up like Joe Soap's image of a teacher I'm immediately jacking it in and joining the circus!

dodgyme · 16-04-2009 2:37pm

TheKat wrote: »

lol

Ahh you could be right, 10 years of getting puked on and cleaning up "accidents" and i still won't be close to that mythical 60k average salary

If I ever end up like Joe Soap's image of a teacher I'm immediately jacking it in and joining the circus!

its not a mythical salary - its average according to the figure today-> sure even the wind bag who had it all and rang brian lenaham and pat kenny said she was on 63k and was ok til she remortgaged her house??? to buy a place in croatia???

TheKat · 16-04-2009 2:57pm

dodgyme wrote: »

its not a mythical salary - its average according to the figure today-> sure even the wind bag who had it all and rang brian lenaham and pat kenny said she was on 63k and was ok til she remortgaged her house??? to buy a place in croatia???

I missed her! I bet Lenihan loved that. The least of his worries is her Croatian holiday home. I'm just surprised the average is so high seeing as how in our school we have majority of young teachers. Would like to see a demographic of ages, would've thought with the reduction in class sizes that was happening that there would be a lot of young teachers filling the new spaces

Are the teachers living in the real world?

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