Are the teachers living in the real world?

AARRRGH

cobweb wrote: »

I generally work a 12 hour day

You really expect me to believe that's the norm? I know some teachers and I know they do not work long days.

Of course there are exceptions, no one is trying to claim no teachers work hard. We just have a problem with the "we don't get paid enough" crap so many teachers come out with.

A couple of years ago I worked in tech support. I got 18k per year. Did I ever consider going on strike? My hole I did.

AARRRGH

cobweb wrote: »

stunning but as you point out that was in your day ie the past as most of the teachers I know now have trained in other professions and gone back as mature students so have professional and academic degrees and postgrads of various level. The days of Miss Jean Brodie are gone. If anyone can do it why did so many people drop out when I went back to study for it

That's not true. My ex was training as a teacher. I would classify the majority as her class as Miss Jean Brodie.

I don't see any point in pretending teachers are some kind of super-educated type. They aren't. They are normal people who have degrees.

ntlbell

AARRRGH wrote: »

That's not true. My ex was training as a teacher. I would classify the majority as her class as Miss Jean Brodie.

I don't see any point in pretending teachers are some kind of super-educated type. They aren't. They are normal people who have degrees.

Of course there not super-educated

if they were they would be professor's on 140k+

dave-higgz

Any teacher who complains about dealing with problem children are just being children themselves. Guards and nurses deal with a lot more crap than they do, and they work much longer hours!!!

givyjoe81

ntlbell wrote: »

Of course there not super-educated

if they were they would be professor's on 140k+

Eh super educated indeed, do you have any idea of the amount of qualifications coming out of the ar se of professor's it's crazy! While 140k is bit much and i wonder how many are on that. Professors are obviously better educated/qualified so even comparing them is pointless, not to mention they often have years of work experience too.

nesf

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Professors are obviously better educated/qualified so even comparing them is pointless, not to mention they often have years of work experience too.

Very few. It's rare to actually be made a Professor in this country (i.e. you could have a Department of 20-30 with 1 Professor though some have many more, usually it's a historical thing how many there are in each Department + politics). Many, but not the majority, will become Senior Lecturers at some point which has a top salary point at €99K but to become one you need to both have a strong teaching CV and a strong research CV which requires a lot of work and you won't see the top of the scale till your mid-50s for most people. Failing that, from what I've seen many/most (depends on the Department) don't get that far and the salary tops out around €60K. There's an intermediate point in this scale (called the bar) which stops you at around €50K where you have to apply and show evidence of your research and teaching to pass. Most don't pass it first time and it takes some people multiple attempts. So getting to even €60K isn't trivial. A lecturer starting with a PhD will get something like €42K a year, a lecturer with only a Masters will start in the high 30s.

Unlike the rest of the civil/public service they actually put some thought into devising the salary scale increments in Universities and you won't just coast up to the top salaries by just turning up every day. Unless you're extremely lucky, you won't get made a Professor until latish in your career and at that only after assembling a fair body of good research published in very good journals. Seriously there's no comparison in qualification terms between your average teacher and your average lecturer, although obviously you'll get the odd exception.

For reference, a full Professor in the American system is roughly equivalent to a Senior Lecturer in ours, both in terms of pay and in terms of difficulty getting the position. That's why our Professors appear overpaid initially (they're two very different positions). Oh, and to remind people that every lecturer at the moment is frozen at their present point on the pay scale and this won't change until things pick up in the economy.

zootroid

I was talking to friends of a friend recently (all were primary school teachers), and they were tellling me that they start on between 32k and 36k a year, depending on their degree results. I think its ridiculous money. Wages in this country have simply exploded over the last few years.

I started my first job about 4 years ago, as a trainee accountant through a grad programme with a big company. I started on 21k. 3 years later I was on 36k. I find it hard to understand how someone with no experience can command the same salary as someone with three years experience (not to mention the additional effort for study in order to become qualified). I know we're not exactly dealing with like with like here, but I'm just using this purely as an example.

When I asked if they felt they were well paid, i was hit with the usual "but sure people in the private sector get bonuses, over-time..." etc. In my experience, and those of my friends, this is never the case. Nobody gets overtime, and only people at the top get bonuses.

If they complain about working conditions, eg over-crowded classrooms, lack of facilities etc then fair enough. But striking over pay when it appears to me that they are paid well enough isn't something I agree with.

givyjoe81

nesf wrote: »

Very few. It's rare to actually be made a Professor in this country (i.e. you could have a Department of 20-30 with 1 Professor though some have many more, usually it's a historical thing how many there are in each Department + politics). Many, but not the majority, will become Senior Lecturers at some point which has a top salary point at €99K but to become one you need to both have a strong teaching CV and a strong research CV which requires a lot of work and you won't see the top of the scale till your mid-50s for most people. Failing that, from what I've seen many/most (depends on the Department) don't get that far and the salary tops out around €60K. There's an intermediate point in this scale (called the bar) which stops you at around €50K where you have to apply and show evidence of your research and teaching to pass. Most don't pass it first time and it takes some people multiple attempts. So getting to even €60K isn't trivial. A lecturer starting with a PhD will get something like €42K a year, a lecturer with only a Masters will start in the high 30s.

Unlike the rest of the civil/public service they actually put some thought into devising the salary scale increments in Universities and you won't just coast up to the top salaries by just turning up every day. Unless you're extremely lucky, you won't get made a Professor until latish in your career and at that only after assembling a fair body of good research published in very good journals. Seriously there's no comparison in qualification terms between your average teacher and your average lecturer, although obviously you'll get the odd exception.

For reference, a full Professor in the American system is roughly equivalent to a Senior Lecturer in ours, both in terms of pay and in terms of difficulty getting the position. That's why our Professors appear overpaid initially (they're two very different positions). Oh, and to remind people that every lecturer at the moment is frozen at their present point on the pay scale and this won't change until things pick up in the economy.

I was actually saying that professor's deserve the money they get, I also dont believe they are paid, on majority, the amount of money our teacher friend seemed to pull out of the sky. Plus i do also think they for the most part deserve the money they are paid. As mentioned before and after better educated people who have stuided for longer do not get near a starting salary of 32k etc.

Striking over pay in times like this is sickening to be honest and then trying to say that its due to class sizes etc its just total bull. There have always been problems with class sizes and while its unfortunate teachers have lived with it up til now... Let me see what was the last stike over a few years back, il stick my neck out and say benchmarking/pay?? ( i dont actually remember just a hazy recollection) I would also bet class sizes were an issue then.

Stromecek

I think this all comes down to how much we respect and value the role of teaching in society and in a wider context the role of education in society.

We have an education system that produces little more than, in general, people able to regurgitate an uninspired syllabus to obtain an uninspired career in accountancy or teaching or something, who then like to come here and whinge how much this "service" costs.

Maybe what we should be discussing is, what kind of people this institution creates and in turn what kind of society the graduates of this system go on to make.

I've had three great teachers in my life and in my mind they where worth every penny they earned, however the vast majority didn't give a sh*t, weren't interested or simply didn't think it was worth their time taking an interest, perhaps the incentive of their wage wasn't enough or the cynicism of the system led them to become that way. Perhaps they were just sh*t teachers in a long line of sh*t teachers trained to be sh*t teachers.

Which leaves me to speculate that, first, it disingenuous of most educators (couldn't use teachers again ) to suddenly feel aggrieved that certain cutbacks are imminent because it threatens their cushy number, but on the other hand, I do feel sorry for the genuinely gifted teachers who certainly are undervalued, under-appreciated and struggling under the weight of this malfunctioning system.

Which leads me again to the questions: how much is teaching worth? is it even a question of money, downturn or not? is it time to re-evaluate the role of education in society? and should the people who come out the other end of this system do something they love rather than be prepared to get a job in graphic design?

perhaps its question of the kind of society we're heading for and want to create, but if the politics forum is anything to go by I think we may be f**cked, we're certainly lacking new ideas, round and round in circles of party politics, hysterics about the "economy" which is out of our hands in the most part anyway (apart from cutting public services) and of course, tedious point scoring.

T-K-O

cobweb wrote: »

We have it the same as other jobs I am sick of reading how great we have it. I have spent over 20 years working in jobs in the private sector and enjoyed my perks such as the nice car etc, in the health service, and in a number of other industries that have had some very nice perks including not having to put up with daily harrassement from public.

Why should the teachers union do that when an awful lot of the teachers go off to foreign climes to work for charity during their holidays and also volunteer here but sure details, I also have worked in special needs since i am a teenager and that can be very difficult but sure why dont you volunteer yourself you could enjoy it and gain something from it

A lot of people would love to go abroad or stay at home and help charities but that is simply impossible for many of us. Unlike teachers that opportunity is not available to most of us.

mikemac

me_right_one wrote: »

Teachers just dont know how good they have it. Every year has been a boom year for teachers since 1921, everyone else only got ten good years in the entire history of Ireland. There are always "haves" and "have nots" in society. No matter what happens, teachers are always in the "haves" category. Unjustly might I add! Their actions at the moment sicken me.

1948 Teachers Strike.
Probably the longest and most bitter strike in the history of the State.

They lost btw

me_right_one

mikemac wrote: »

1948 Teachers Strike.
Probably the longest and most bitter strike in the history of the State.

They lost btw

GOOD!

irish_bob

dave-higgz wrote: »

Any teacher who complains about dealing with problem children are just being children themselves. Guards and nurses deal with a lot more crap than they do, and they work much longer hours!!!

while our teachers are the highest paid in the eu and i have nothing but contempt for thier whinging and thier disgusting use of the slogan ( ITS THE CHILDREN WERE WORRIED ABOUT ), i believe a teacher is a much tougher job than a guard

most guards do feck all apart from stoping people for no tax displayed , stamping passport applications , gun licence renewal and over seeing dole registration , they are also over grossly over paid in comparison to the rest of europes police force

when will our public servants realise that ireland is not as wealthy a country as the uk , germany , netherlands or belguim , denmark any more

dodgyme

from letters in indo today:

A quick comparison with secondary teachers' salaries and working hours shows how deluded they really are.

In the UK the
starting salary for a graduate teacher is equivalent to €24,200. A graduate here with an honours degree starts on €39,077, almost 60pc more.

UK teachers work 195 days and 1,265 hours at the total discretion of the school. Here, it is 170 days and a maximum of 22 hours teaching a week, 34 weeks a year.

The top of the scale for the same teacher in Ireland is €69,837 and €41,211 for the UK.

It is time to cut back on these levels of pay which clearly our taxes can no longer afford.

Charles McLaughlin
Dublin 8

jimmycrackcorm

The uk comparison is skewed at present by the weakness of sterling. However i'd like to know why we should be paying teachers for their excess holidays over and above the standard.

ntlbell

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Eh super educated indeed, do you have any idea of the amount of qualifications coming out of the ar se of professor's it's crazy! While 140k is bit much and i wonder how many are on that. Professors are obviously better educated/qualified so even comparing them is pointless, not to mention they often have years of work experience too.

I wasn't comparing them?

jimmmy

dodgyme wrote: »

from letters in indo today:

A quick comparison with secondary teachers' salaries and working hours shows how deluded they really are.

In the UK the
starting salary for a graduate teacher is equivalent to €24,200. A graduate here with an honours degree starts on €39,077, almost 60pc more.

UK teachers work 195 days and 1,265 hours at the total discretion of the school. Here, it is 170 days and a maximum of 22 hours teaching a week, 34 weeks a year.

The top of the scale for the same teacher in Ireland is €69,837 and €41,211 for the UK.

It is time to cut back on these levels of pay which clearly our taxes can no longer afford.

Charles McLaughlin
Dublin 8

I agree

partyguinness

I agree absolutely that school hours and terms should be standardised along with other OCED countries (teachers are very quick to quote these countries to back up other claims).

I know a lot of teachers....and a problem with them is that they never left school...:eek: and still have a school yard mindset..

oh well

can anyone explain to me why teachers will not allow a child use another method of calculation to answer maths problems (ie subtraction/fractions/ etc) if the child fully understands the alternative method but not the method as explained by the teacher. I've some across this so many times where the teacher won't let the child use another method. They just can't seem to see that there are so many different ways to get to the same answer. I've had it at primary level and secondary level - though in fairness in the secondary teachers don't make such a big issue of it. If teachers are so caring about the children, surely it would be better to let the child use the calculation method he understands rather than confuse the child by insisting they use a method they can't crasp the concept of.

97i9y3941

think its to due way the module of exams is set,i remember in school aswell,i had my own way of getting the answers,unfortantly since the higher aboves didnt get the answer that way it woundnt be allowed

T-K-O

I'm sure it is all about laying the correct foundations and that would assist the child in solving bigger problems

nesf

givyjoe81 wrote: »

I was actually saying that professor's deserve the money they get.

Yup, I was just expanding the point for the benefit of other people.

ntlbell

givyjoe81 wrote: »

I was actually saying that professor's deserve the money they get.

I know what you were doing, but I never stated that they didn't deserve it.

Vince135792003

Just to start off, I am a recently qualified primary teacher who used to work in the private sector.

I really think in hindsight the INTO has handled it all very poorly. Last October (which seems a decade ago given all that's happened to the country) they had demonstrations against all the cut backs that were forgotten about very quickly. In my opinion, we should have went on strike about them.

The cut backs in language support teachers, special teachers, increase in class averages and reductions in grants are going to have a negative effect on the quality of schooling across all schools.

As regards pay, my wages have shrunk considerably since January. I am also angry at how the economy has been handled.

However in my opinion, to threaten to go on strike now, with pay being the major issue would be completely wrong.

jimmmy

Vince135792003 wrote: »

The cut backs in language support teachers, special teachers, increase in class averages and reductions in grants are going to have a negative effect on the quality of schooling across all schools..

Cut the wages to closer to our competitor countries, and the budget will allow more teachers to be hired

Vince135792003 wrote: »

As regards pay, my wages have shrunk considerably since January.
.

So have many people....but most people do not have the salary of the average teacher ( 60 k did someone say ? ) or the other perks, which are very considerable ( ( security, pension, holidays etc )

Vince135792003 wrote: »

I am also angry at how the economy has been handled..

Join the club

Vince135792003 wrote: »

However in my opinion, to threaten to go on strike now, with pay being the major issue would be completely wrong.

What about going on strike in June, July + August so ? Any danger of that ?

Vince135792003

jimmmy wrote: »

Cut the wages to closer to our competitor countries, and the budget will allow more teachers to be hired

Maybe instead of cutting up everything up I said, you should re-read my post again. You seemed to miss my basic point which was that as a teacher I believe we should have gone on strike in October over the actual educational cuts and that threatening to do so now, with pay being the core issue, would be wrong to do so.

Alcatel

Vince135792003 wrote: »

Maybe instead of cutting up everything up I said, you should re-read my post again. You seemed to miss my basic point which was that as a teacher I believe we should have gone on strike in October over the actual educational cuts and that threatening to do so now, with pay being the core issue, would be wrong to do so.

I see your point, and not to pass personal asperations - rather, to make a generalisation - I'd say that you've just pointed out something that says a lot about the teacher movement in Ireland: You're right, they didn't go on strike until it was their pockets being hit. Any arguments about other cutbacks are moot cover for that fact.

ixoy

Vince135792003 wrote: »

Maybe instead of cutting up everything up I said, you should re-read my post again. You seemed to miss my basic point which was that as a teacher I believe we should have gone on strike in October over the actual educational cuts and that threatening to do so now, with pay being the core issue, would be wrong to do so.

Do you believe this is a widely-held belief? The pictures and media report that the proposed strike is over the levy and it seems to be what the unions are saying as well. Are the unions talking for their members or only those members with the loudest voices? What's the feeling at ground level?

jimmmy

Vince135792003 wrote: »

Maybe instead of cutting up everything up I said, you should re-read my post again. You seemed to miss my basic point .

fair enough, I answered your other points, not your first point.

Vince135792003 wrote: »

which was that as a teacher I believe we should have gone on strike in October over the actual educational cuts and that threatening to do so now, with pay being the core issue, would be wrong to do so.

So it is timing ( your use of the word "now" ? ) or " pay being the core issue " which you are concerned about ? If its timing, how about you going on strike in June, July or August ?

If its pay, do you think teachers are too highly paid, being paid almost double the average Irish industrial wage , and much more than teachers in the UK, for example ?

Vince135792003

ixoy wrote: »

Do you believe this is a widely-held belief? The pictures and media report that the proposed strike is over the levy and it seems to be what the unions are saying as well. Are the unions talking for their members or only those members with the loudest voices? What's the feeling at ground level?

I think teachers are very much split on the issue with a group in the middle apathetic about the whole thing.

I'll just speak for me though. The levy is obviously not nice to take but I can accept the fact that in comparison to others, teachers can afford to take the hit in my opinion. I think there might be a feeling amongst teachers though that if they don't oppose the levies now, that 6 months down the line the government will come back looking for more.

The protests in October and November over the cutbacks although very well attended by teachers and parents were a waste of time in hindsight. Maybe going on strike might have done something but Ixoy you may have a point about a percentage of teacher not truly caring until their pockets get hurt (which I think you could say about a percentage of most groups of workers).

Just on pay in relation to jimmys last comments, I'll only ever speak for myself and not all teachers. I'm on 720 a week (take home pay) for 38 weeks (I don't get holiday pay as my status is as a sub) and given my qualifications, the time I put into the job and and my passion for it, I think I am good value.