Are the teachers living in the real world?

nice_guy80

teachers may get paid that on average - but i would definitely question that figure.

any primary teacher i know (10 years service) isn't getting over 42k. As a full qualified permanent teacher, with a masters, I am not getting much over 40K.

you also have to look at - how much of that income is then taxed? public servants pay a lot of tax on their earnings. They have a lot fewer ways of reducing their tax bill than someone in the private sector.

a bloody lot of it is taxed! my take home pay isn't far off the industrial wage. Compared to an accountant on 21K for example who would get taxed far less.

gurramok

The Dept of Education supplied those figures of 60k average. As discussed earlier, it might include very generous allowances to prop it up to 60k.

ntlbell

nice_guy80 wrote: »

teachers may get paid that on average - but i would definitely question that figure.

any primary teacher i know (10 years service) isn't getting over 42k. As a full qualified permanent teacher, with a masters, I am not getting much over 40K.

you also have to look at - how much of that income is then taxed? public servants pay a lot of tax on their earnings. They have a lot fewer ways of reducing their tax bill than someone in the private sector.

a bloody lot of it is taxed! my take home pay isn't far off the industrial wage. Compared to an accountant on 21K for example who would get taxed far less.

Can you give us some examples

Let say I'm on 60k

and a teacher is on 60k

can you explain how a teacher ends up paying more than I?

Considering I pay my own pension in FULL.

Jelly2

I've just been reading the posts on the grumpy and lazy lecturer, and wanted to reply - on behalf of my profession!
It seems extremely unfair to generalise about university lecturers on the basis of bad experiences with one lecturer - there can always be a 'bad egg' I suppose, but he/she will never be promoted beyond the low grade of lecturer (yes, there are a few increments, but then you hit a ceiling and have to compete for promotion, and very few promotions are granted to senior lecturer and professorial level).
Did you know that university departments in Ireland are reviewed by international panels regularly for teaching quality and research, with serious penalties for poor performance? Lecturers do not just paddle their own canoes, for the most part! In my own experience, I have seen lecturers give huge help to students; personally, I always mark student essays within two weeks, come hell or high water, give over days for students to collect their essays and discuss them with me (and we are teaching huge numbers - classes of 170 are regular), spend hours discussing exams, writing references etc, and I see my colleagues doing exactly the same.
In addition, we do not get more than four weeks holiday during the year (contrary to popular opinion, I guess), but spend our non-lecturing time researching and writing...to produce articles and books, which are increasingly demanded by our employers. Research also contributes hugely to our teaching because it means that we are uptodate with the latest ideas and practices but are also able to bring the subject alive for students using data that we have compiled and analysed. I trained for eight years to become a lecturer (yes, it is that demanding a job in terms of the knowledge required), and I was also obliged to do a postgraduate certificate in teaching and learning when I got my first lecturing post - I do not know of any lecturer in my department who just reads from slides, and would be pretty unimpressed with any who did!:)

population

Jelly2 wrote: »

I've just been reading the posts on the grumpy and lazy lecturer, and wanted to reply - on behalf of my profession!
It seems extremely unfair to generalise about university lecturers on the basis of bad experiences with one lecturer
I do not know of any lecturer in my department who just reads from slides, and would be pretty unimpressed with any who did!:)

I do know of a lecturer who just reads from slides.

If you read my posts again you will see that I already commented on the good lecturers I had during my 2 yr distance learning stint.

What amazes me is that the one lecturer who I specifically mentioned is 15 yrs+ lecturing with no fear of being sacked for his apathy, ignorance, laziness and appaling attitude towards his students and his role.

This man's living is facilitated by my taxes (and he has a marvelous standard of living , again see earlier posts)

Is this fair???

Oh and believe me, he does not ever research or attempt to be published.

After all he has his slides

oh well

nice_guy80 wrote: »

teachers may get paid that on average - but i would definitely question that figure.

any primary teacher i know (10 years service) isn't getting over 42k. As a full qualified permanent teacher, with a masters, I am not getting much over 40K.

you also have to look at - how much of that income is then taxed? public servants pay a lot of tax on their earnings. They have a lot fewer ways of reducing their tax bill than someone in the private sector.[/B]

Did you know that private sector employees pay alot of tax on their earnings too???? how do you come to reckon that a private sector worker can reduce his/her tax bill in more ways that someone in the public sector?????

If you are using pension contributions as a method of reducing the figure then you have to understand too that the private sector person funds his/her pension fully. It is helping the govt in the long run for the private person to fund his/her own pension. They spent years convincing us to take out pensions to look after ourselves in our old age.

As to the 60k average - I would be relatively close to 5 teachers between primary and secondary schools and they are all either very close to or above this figure. Go figure that one !!!!!

Hillel

Just look at this thread http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59841675#post59841675
Bottom Line: A teacher is suggesting that €40 per hour for supervision duties is "shocking".
There was even a suggestion that the money should be paid for being "available" to do the work!
If ever there was a stark illustration of the entitlement mentality in some elements of the "Public Service", this surely must be it.
I beginning to wonder if there ever can be a meeting of minds between the public and private sectors. How do you get through to someone like this???

sitstill wrote: »

Question about Supervision & Substitution money
I know that we're not due to get it until July or August, but does anyone know how much I should expect to get for the next S&S payment? I got E590 the last time. Thanks.

J.R. wrote: »

If you did the full year.....i.e. 37 hours then you will get €1,840 before tax and deductions.

focusing wrote: »

Is it only €1,480 for the whole school year??

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

Yes. Shocking but true when you think of all the abuse to take for it!

gaeilgegrinds wrote: »

You can do more than 37 aswell. You get paid more for that.

bobbbb

oh well wrote: »

Did you know that private sector employees pay alot of tax on their earnings too???? how do you come to reckon that a private sector worker can reduce his/her tax bill in more ways that someone in the public sector?????

em, yes you can. But im not telling here
Talk to an accountant.

jimmmy

Jelly2 wrote: »

I've just been reading the posts on the grumpy and lazy lecturer, and wanted to reply - on behalf of my profession!

Not all are grumpy or lazy. However, given the state of our economy, it is fair to say that the teaching profession generally is overpaid and underworked for that pay, whichever way you want to look at it. Any lecturers I know tell me they get a lot more than your 4 weeks holiday a year. I also know that from the amount of time they spend at other activities, be it holiday homes, summer cash touristy jobs , cash nixers ( eg people from engineering / quantity surveying / arch background ) etc.

Hillel

bobbbb wrote: »

em, yes you can. But im not telling here
Talk to an accountant.

I am aware of NO options to save tax which are available to PAYE workers that are not available to public sector workers, as well. And it is those same PAYE workers in the private sector who are shouldering an entirely disproportionate share of the current cutbacks.

Yes, yes, yes, non-PAYE workers have many options to save tax open to them. Yes, it is unfair, and there are loopholes that should be closed. One need look no further than the third level grants scheme. This has been manipulated by the non-PAYE sector for years, with no political will to change this.

But, that is not the real issue, there are always some inequalities. The vast majority of the cutbacks are being felt by the private sector PAYE workers. Those SAME workers that the public sector, including teachers, were benchmarked against. When times were good, the public sector had no hesitation in comparing their terms and conditions to these. Now that the entire country is in difficulty, those same public servants are attempting to change the goalposts by using totally spurious comparisions.

Cmon guys, try and show some solidarity with those same workers who helped you up your wages in the first place.

oh well

...... I should begin my first year teaching in Ireland on €40,363.

Basic Scale: €32,599 +
PGDE, 1st & 2nd Class Honours: €1301+
PhD: €6463
Total: €40,363 ................


I found this on another thread on the Education board - I'm absolutely godsmacked that a first year teaching post this person will get over 40k salary - A First Year Teacher!!!!!!!!

Hillel

oh well wrote: »

...... I should begin my first year teaching in Ireland on €40,363.

Basic Scale: €32,599 +
PGDE, 1st & 2nd Class Honours: €1301+
PhD: €6463
Total: €40,363 ................


I found this on another thread on the Education board - I'm absolutely godsmacked that a first year teaching post this person will get over 40k salary - A First Year Teacher!!!!!!!!

I wasn't aware that you would get a PGDE and a PhD allowance. Anyway, I would expect a much greater contribution from a PhD graduate, compared to a basic teaching qualification. IMO a premium of €6463 isn't entirely unreasonable. If we are truly committed to the "knowledge economy" we want more highly qualified educators, particularly in maths and the sciences.

clartharlear

oh well wrote: »

...... I should begin my first year teaching in Ireland on €40,363.

Basic Scale: €32,599 +
PGDE, 1st & 2nd Class Honours: €1301+
PhD: €6463
Total: €40,363 ................


I found this on another thread on the Education board - I'm absolutely godsmacked that a first year teaching post this person will get over 40k salary - A First Year Teacher!!!!!!!!

I'm sure other people have pointed this out, but it generally takes 5 years to get to the first year teaching. Those years are usually spent subbing, supervising, grinding and generally training to teach.

Of course, for the next few years, all newly qualified teachers will be on the dole.

Sleepy

I'm sure it'd be quicker if the salary scales were lower - thus allowing the department to hire more permanent full time teachers

jimmmy

There were a few excellent articles in the papers at the weekend comparing the pay, working hours per week, weeks holidays per year, results etc of Irish teachers compared with their European counterparts.
The teachers in Ireland are very much overpaid and work far less hours compared to other countries. The differences are greater than most people realise. Illiteracy rates are also higher in Ireland. Shame on our teaching profession.

aassddff

It amazes me how teachers no matter how bad cannot be sacked or even cautioned by their bosses. During school I had some excellent and some awfull teachers, likewise at college but in neither school or college was it ever even considered possible that they would be replaced.

I now attend a private college (studying for accountancy exams) and all the lecturers are excellent, if one of them was weak and the students complained I'm sure something would happen

I am also now in fear of losing my job and I have to read about the sacrifices the poor teachers have to make in their safe well-paid pensionable jobs, I better stop before I start lambasting all teachers with the bad stick

clartharlear

aassddff wrote: »

It amazes me how teachers no matter how bad cannot be sacked or even cautioned by their bosses. During school I had some excellent and some awfull teachers, likewise at college but in neither school or college was it ever even considered possible that they would be replaced.

I now attend a private college (studying for accountancy exams) and all the lecturers are excellent, if one of them was weak and the students complained I'm sure something would happen

I am also now in fear of losing my job and I have to read about the sacrifices the poor teachers have to make in their safe well-paid pensionable jobs, I better stop before I start lambasting all teachers with the bad stick

Actually, there are new disciplinary procedures coming in to make it easier to fire teachers.
http://asti.ie/pdfs/disciplinaryproc.pdf
I think it's very reasonable.

But it's very hard in general to fire people in Ireland. Look at the American system.

gurramok

Crazy teachers wages, found this on another post.

http://ronanlyons.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/tackling-the-thorny-issue-of-teachers-pay/

Really obscene how they milk the system.

jimmmy

No wonder the country is how it is.

asdasd

Wow, so wages in education trump wages in finance. Thats a remarkable statistic.

Now, I dont think that teachers should be in the lower middle income groups. The top pay of 60K is right for the best teachers. What I think we dont like is

1) We cant get rid of the worst teachers, or pay them less.
2) The poor mouth attitude of some teachers.

jimmmy

Who is to say who is a good teacher and who is a not so good teacher , or a bad teacher ?

They are all overpaid....and compared to their european colleagues, underworked in terms of their hous worked + holidays.

asdasd

Who is to say who is a good teacher and who is a not so good teacher , or a bad teacher ?

We as a society?

No, I jest. I am pretty sure the metric could be decided on a school by school basis by the principal. Most people seem to know in real life who is good, and who is bad.

oh well

we had the crazy situation in local school whereby a techer on final year of training (I don't know what its called by 1st year out of college but still finished and graduated). The Inspector failed her two years in a row but the school kep her on as a temp, she had no class control, no class plans, homework never corrected, etc etc. When the school finally let her go we discovered afterwards she was temping in a school in next town. How on earth can this be accepted?

Hillel

asdasd wrote: »

Now, I dont think that teachers should be in the lower middle income groups. The top pay of 60K is right for the best teachers.

I agree - for the BEST teachers both in terms of academic standards and their ability to teach. For that level of pay I would expect mandatory in-service training each year, without additional remuneration, and competency assessments no less frequently than every three years. I would expect the in-service training to be for at least one week per academic year, to be taken from the holiday entitlement, NOT from the agreed number of teaching days.

asdasd wrote: »

Now, I dont think that teachers should be in the lower middle income groups. The top pay of 60K is right for the best teachers. What I think we dont like is

1) We cant get rid of the worst teachers, or pay them less.
2) The poor mouth attitude of some teachers.

I would add:
3) The VERY bad attitude of SOME teachers towards their pupils.
(Pupils have good cause to complain that SOME teachers don't treat them with the respect they are entitled to expect.)

jimmmy wrote: »

They are all overpaid....

I believe that the substantive issue is that there is no performance management and no means of rewarding the better performing teachers, compared to their peers. The pay is EXTREMELY good, granted. However, for those teachers who truly deliver, I would support it. Ironically, higher pay is based almost exclusively on length of service, while it is often the younger teachers who work the hardest and are most up to date in their subjects.

jimmmy wrote: »

Who is to say who is a good teacher and who is a not so good teacher , or a bad teacher ?

That is the responsibility of the Inspectorate within the Dept of Education and Science.
http://www.education.ie/home/home.jsp?pcategory=32818&ecategory=32818&language=EN
(A responsibility that, in my opinion, they have singularly failed to fulfill.)

nice_guy80

how many phD graduates are going to be teaching in primary level?

was looking at the primary pay scales there
http://www.into.ie/ROI/WorkingConditions/Salaries/CommonBasicScale/

cannot for the life of me see how the average salary of teachers could be over 60K.

majority of teachers must be over 50 years of age!! if they are including the salaries of principals of large schools then that will scew the figures.

gurramok

nice_guy80 wrote: »

cannot for the life of me see how the average salary of teachers could be over 60K.

majority of teachers must be over 50 years of age!! if they are including the salaries of principals of large schools then that will scew the figures.

Its the allowances pushing up the incomes.

achtung4

Sour grapes, sour grapes, sour grapes. As a teacher reading this I can't help but ponder... I wonder how many of the people who have "contributed" to this discussion are people who at one time or another held aspirations to join the profession. Teaching is a noble profession. As i'm sure you are aware, the points for entering teaching courses are particularly high. Teachers have worked hard to get to where they are today. This was a chance open to everybody. JUst because we are fortunate enough to be in the position we are today, there is no need tbe resentful. As I type this it is 11:30. I finished work today at 2:30. Many might perceive that this is only half a days work. I can assure you that a full days work was completed before the bell went. So god bless you begrudgers, hope you get over your feelings of inadequacy and resentment sometime and find peace with your own professions. Say a prayer for us poor teachers, the pension levy has hit us hard

gurramok

What are you on about?

Facts have been posted about an average pay of 60k, they earn more than any other teachers in the EU and they are going to strike over this pay in Sept while the country is going broke and you call that begrudging? :eek:

Hillel

gurramok wrote: »

What are you on about?

Facts have been posted about an average pay of 60k, they earn more than any other teachers in the EU and they are going to strike over this pay in Sept while the country is going broke and you call that begrudging? :eek:

And just think that he is teaching, and influencing, our children. Makes one want to recommend home schooling.

asdasd

achtung4 not doing teachers any favours.


if we're honest.