Interesting letter in todays Indo

ronbyrne2005

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/now-golfing-pays-better-than-work-1708412.html

I recently had a long conversation with a friend of mine who lost his job. He was in a reasonably good job and after a little bit of overtime was earning a gross salary of €35,000 per year.

So I asked him the obvious question of how he was going to cope now with four children to feed and, I have to be honest, the answer startled me.

He was actually a lot better off and now in a position to go out golfing every day while his children are at school.

Frankly, I did not believe him until I sat down and did the sums. On a salary of €35,000, his annual net income after the mini Budget was €28,854, after all deductions.

Now he is on the supplementary welfare allowance which -- with a wife and four children -- gives you €443.90 per week, or €23,083 annually.

As he also has a mortgage, he is entitled to mortgage interest supplement which pays all the interest on your mortgage. In his case, this was €1,200 per month of his €1,500 mortgage, or €14,400 per annum.

He is also entitled to back-to-school and footwear payment of €905 per year for four children, a medical card which is worth, on average, say €500 per year (probably more) and a heating supplement which I cannot quantify.

In total, he now has tax-free income of €38,888, an increase in his net income of €10,034 per year for working on his golf handicap.

Based on the calculations after the mini-Budget, you would need to earn more than €47,000 per year if you have four children to justify continuing to work.

This is even before taking into account the costs of working, such as petrol, car maintenance, tolls, lunches and so on.

Now in any civilised society, and especially in a society in a deep recession with a huge welfare bill, surely the government must give people an incentive to go out and work

Making the child benefit taxable or means tested later this year is just going to make the situation worse and encourage more people to give up work and rely on the State to live.

It could even drive our small economy to collapse as the welfare bill gets bigger and bigger as more people, including myself, ask: why should I bother to go out to work when it is basically costing me money to work?

Unless something radically changes, I will be joining my mate on the golf course very soon.

Andy McNamara
Drogheda, Co Louth

ShooterSF

Instead of doing a load of maths and getting outraged at the government why doesn't he get outraged at his "mate" who instead of seeking a job is out playing golf and therefore committing fraud?

ScumLord

ShooterSF wrote: »

Instead of doing a load of maths and getting outraged at the government why doesn't he get outraged at his "mate" who instead of seeking a job is out playing golf and therefore committing fraud?

Not if he intends to become a professional golfer.

I've heard this kind of stuff from loads of people before, once from a single mother who wouldn't take any extra hours at work because she'd end up worse off. I wouldn't blame them for it either why break your balls every day if you can get paid more relaxing.

Sam Vimes

Makes sense to me

/quits job

Rented Mule

The System that works .....so you don't have to.

ShooterSF

ScumLord wrote: »

Not if he intends to become a professional golfer.

I've heard this kind of stuff from loads of people before, once from a single mother who wouldn't take any extra hours at work because she'd end up worse off. I wouldn't blame them for it either why break your balls every day if you can get paid more relaxing.

He's still not seeking a job. Either pro or not I do understand people on 3 days not taking extra hours but by god ya really would want to enjoy your golf.
Still I love this misplaced outrage. His mate is basically the big problem with the system not the amount paid out.

dade

ScumLord wrote: »

, once from a single mother who wouldn't take any extra hours at work because she'd end up worse off.

that's why it's known as the poverty trap. that if they did work full time and earn over the threshold they'd loose some monetary benefits and also things like the medical card etc so it's financially not worth their while trying to get a job/work more hours etc.

dade

ShooterSF wrote: »

instead of seeking a job is out playing golf and therefore committing fraud?

just out of ignorance on my part what is the guy doing that is fraudulant?

ShooterSF

dade wrote: »

just out of ignorance on my part what is the guy doing that is fraudulant?

Receiving Job seekers benefit while not actively seeking a job. Instead he's out playing golf while "the kids are at school".

S.I.R

thats it, im going to start paying tax... but i need kids first...


Ebay here i come...

nomorebadtown

Playing golf instead of seeking work (he's on jobseekers payments)
of course you can do both

Sam Vimes

ShooterSF wrote: »

He's still not seeking a job. Either pro or not I do understand people on 3 days not taking extra hours but by god ya really would want to enjoy your golf.
Still I love this misplaced outrage. His mate is basically the big problem with the system not the amount paid out.

I can see your point but when you get right down to it, his mate is now considerably better off than he was when he was working. That should not be possible in a functioning welfare system because it's only human to take the easier option.

Usually the welfare option is easier in exchange for not having as much money but the only downside here is "loss of pride" and for a lot of people, their pride can be bought for an extra 10k a year, especially now because whenever he does decide to go and get a job it'll be easier than before Stephen to explain to an employer why he's been unemployed so long.

As far as I can see there is no incentive for him to get off welfare and that situation needs to be rectified.

Saibh

ShooterSF wrote: »

Receiving Job seekers benefit while not actively seeking a job. Instead he's out playing golf while "the kids are at school".

Can't imagine he is out playing golf the whole day either. He should have time to do both, play golf and look for a job.

Dyr

hmmm..where would I acquire four kids post haste?

Mr.Lizard

If I was on 35k I wouldn't consider it sensible to have four kids. But hey that's just me.

ShooterSF

ShooterSF wrote: »

Receiving Job seekers benefit while not actively seeking a job. Instead he's out playing golf while "the kids are at school".

you have no idea what you're talking about. he is in no way committing fraud..

cop on.

gurramok

The mortgage interest supplement is only paid for 1 year afaik

frag420

I can see nothing wrong with this at all. We have been taken for a ride by the government for far too long now and if there is a loophole available then lets jump through it! Why break your balls for a pittance when you can get more while at the same time improving your swing. Its a no brainer.

Now i wonder if it aplies to surfing as my golf swing is atrocious!

LouOB

Will you ask him to give me my money back
As Im paying for him to improve his handicap






*goes off to be passive agressive elsewhere

Saibh

frag420 wrote: »

I can see nothing wrong with this at all. We have been taken for a ride by the government for far too long now and if there is a loophole available then lets jump through it! Why break your balls for a pittance when you can get more while at the same time improving your swing. Its a no brainer.

Now i wonder if it aplies to surfing as my golf swing is atrocious!

Its all well and good saying that, but where do think the government is going to get the money to pay for people on the dole - it will be left to the workers who will have to be pay higher taxes, prsi etc.,

The money has to come from somewhere.

brianthebard

I didn't think golf clubs allowed unemployed people to play on their courses, I think this letter writer is a troll! :eek:

dade

ShooterSF wrote: »

Receiving Job seekers benefit while not actively seeking a job.

ok so supplementary welfare allowance is job seekers benifit? geniunly not taking teh pi$$ here I don't know teh terms for these benifits I haven't been on teh dole in about 15 years

ntlbell

brianthebard wrote: »

I didn't think golf clubs allowed unemployed people to play on their courses, I think this letter writer is a troll! :eek:

this rule was revoked after a number of high profile builders went bust.

They also will now take butter vouchers as part membership

ShooterSF

Deleted User wrote: »

you have no idea what you're talking about. he is in no way committing fraud..

cop on.

Really? The guy is using the time he was in work to play golf rather than search for a job. If he's searching it's at best a half assed effort. I don't think people on the dole shouldn't be able to enjoy themselves but I think they should invest an equal amount of time searching for work as they would working if they had a job.
He obviously isn't if he has more time now to work on his handicap.

Dublin_Gunner

ShooterSF wrote: »

Really? The guy is using the time he was in work to play golf rather than search for a job. If he's searching it's at best a half assed effort. I don't think people on the dole shouldn't be able to enjoy themselves but I think they should invest an equal amount of time searching for work as they would working if they had a job.
He obviously isn't if he has more time now to work on his handicap.

And sure while you're at it, get the government to hire a bunch of people to go around checking that dole claimers are actively looking for jobs. Give me a break. Searching for a job is hardly an 8 hour a day exercise.

But the letter itself merely strengthens points I have been making in other threads.

Why on earth would you go to work to be less well off for the sake of it? Not only that, but a situation like this is a vicious circle.

The more people that get let go - the more will be on benefits. The more on benefits, the more will be unlikely to look for a job, as they are now better off, without even having to put much effort in.

And heres the crux of the issue - the more people that end up like golf-swing bloke, the less money there is to pay for these benefits. In time, this will mean that there will be more money being paid out in benefits, than is being collected through income taxes. The country will implode.

What fantastic economists we have emplyed in our government. Are any of them actually accountants? or even studied maths in school? Own a calculator? Abacus?

I swear this country is gone beyond a joke.

destroyer

ShooterSF wrote: »

Instead of doing a load of maths and getting outraged at the government why doesn't he get outraged at his "mate" who instead of seeking a job is out playing golf and therefore committing fraud?

LOL at this nonsense. I know people who work 80+ hours a week and still have time to play golf, so I imagine one could actively look for work and have lots of time for golf.
Are you by any chance trying to distract from the evidence presented in the post that the welfare system is flawed?
I have 4 kids also and no way would I work for 28,000 to try to support them when I could get more on welfare. In fact I would suggest that your
first responsibility is to your kids, so if welfare pays more thats where you should be.

ShooterSF

Ok. Fine. Say the guy is hunting a job the letter writer also says "Unless something radically changes, I will be joining my mate on the golf course very soon."

So is he claiming he intends to quit his job and make more money that way while of course searching for a job? Does he then quit again as soon as he gets another job? Is that really hunting a job?

I'm not fond of all these extra add on's for kids and mortgages but I don't think basic social for an honest job seeker is too much.

Rayan

gurramok wrote: »

The mortgage interest supplement is only paid for 1 year afaik

I don't think that's correct - nothing mentioned here anyway

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/supplementary-welfare-schemes/mortgage_interest_supplement

This makes me sick though, my new income levy/tax/prsi/etc are paying for this man to basically play golf all day. But there's no point blaming him, the welfare system in place that allows him get away with this is the problem.

The Orb

I'd love to put that guy's nutsack on a tee and smack it straight down the middle. This is why the country is fooked, in a well run country it should not be possible to make more money in this manner from the state than from working.And I can't believe a lot posters think it's a great thing altogether. I don't mind my taxes being used to help people get back on their feet but not to live it up and give society two fingers. That's where the country's €20bn welfare bill is going, on wasters like him, and that's why the rest of us are levied up to our necks.

Darkbloom

ShooterSF wrote: »

Really? The guy is using the time he was in work to play golf rather than search for a job....

Says you. Say he gets up at 6 to be on the course for 7 and plays for 4 hours. Back home by midday and has plenty of hours to apply for jobs.

destroyer

He either finds a job that pays more than the social, or he keeps turning down/quitting any jobs/offers and stays on welfare. To do anything else would be mad and also not in the best interest of his children.
Its the welfare system thats at fault, not the golfer.

Sam Vimes

destroyer wrote: »

He either finds a job that pays more than the social, or he keeps turning down/quitting any jobs/offers and stays on welfare. To do anything else would be mad and also not in the best interest of his children.
Its the welfare system thats at fault, not the golfer.

Well I'd say that both are at fault but he can be forgiven for it. An extra 10k a year and not having to go to work are significant benefits to turn down for the sake of pride

is_that_so

It may also be one of the reasons we haven't had a total breakdown in society. This has always been a problem with welfare. Unfortunately the adjustments tended to be made to encourage single unemployed "yoofs" off the dole. For some people the loss of dignity that goes with unemployment is enough to get them looking for work but I have no doubt there are plenty of others who have found their standard of living and golf handicap have improved.

Caoimhín

There is a dignity to working and providing for yourself and your family that can not be calculated.

Nobody is "Entitled" to anything, thats the problem. Think about it people, it is simple chance of birth that you are not waking up in the slums of Calcutta or the Gaza strip today...

Disease Ridden

Whats the point in searching for jobs if you're up against a thousand people for each job you apply for.
Seriously, as if its a revelation that people on the dole dont spend every waking hour looking for a job! They're not stupid, they know they havnt got a hope in finding one. No no, I'M RIGHT, they DONT have a hope in finding one.

is_that_so

Disease Ridden wrote: »

Whats the point in searching for jobs if you're up against a thousand people for each job you apply for.
Seriously, as if its a revelation that people on the dole dont spend every waking hour looking for a job! They're not stupid, they know they havnt got a hope in finding one. No no, I'M RIGHT, they DONT have a hope in finding one.

I don't think it's so much the "not a hope" as all the goodies you can get for not working. It can be hard to convince some people to go back to work after that.

brianthebard

destroyer wrote: »

LOL at this nonsense. I know people who work 80+ hours a week and still have time to play golf, so I imagine one could actively look for work and have lots of time for golf.
Are you by any chance trying to distract from the evidence presented in the post that the welfare system is flawed?
I have 4 kids also and no way would I work for 28,000 to try to support them when I could get more on welfare. In fact I would suggest that your
first responsibility is to your kids, so if welfare pays more thats where you should be.

I think the constitution would probably support your suggestion...

me-skywalker

Gack!

i'm not angry at all at this guy.. he used to work and lost his job.


it's ridiculous that our welfare system gives the tax from maybe 10 people all to one man.. like i pay maybe 4k a year (maybe, i dunno for sure).. it would take 9 people on my wage and tax just to cover one man. nevermind all the other things tax needs to be spent on.

EastWallGirl

He's worked hard paid his taxes.

The government who was meant to be in oversight did not ensure the banks were regulated properly, did not act upon the signs that there were problems, are still in power on some of the highest salaries for politicians in the world, then bail out a private corporate bank, whihc was not cheque clearing bank and whoops has to bail out 2 more.

Any money saved into the pension fund is gone and due to the contraction in the economy the guy loses his job.

while youa re unemployed you still need structure, playing a round of golf is not going to get in the way, in fact the contacts he makes there are probably more helpful then going down to FAS.

When you look at the complete mismanagement of the Irish economy by those in power and are still in power, it is quite energy sapping, why should he be the dumb sap to pay, sure as hell the TDs and minsters and bankers and builders are not. Dont you worry they all have their trust funds worked out.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Actively seeking work doesn't mean you cannot have a life, he is entitled to do what he wishes. He can play golf or pull his plumb all day long, nobody can or should say squat sh!t about it...

Chickus

This was a letter in the indo;
Wednesday April 15 2009
===============================
=================================

I recently had a long conversation with a friend of mine who lost his job.
He was in a reasonably good job and after a little bit of overtime was
earning a gross salary of €35,000 per year.

So I asked him the obvious question of how he was going to cope now with four children to feed and, I have to be honest, the answer startled me.

He was actually a lot better off and now in a position to go out golfing
every day while his children are at school.

Frankly, I did not believe him until I sat down and did the sums. On a
salary of €35,000, his annual net income after the mini Budget was €28,854,
after all deductions.

Now he is on the supplementary welfare allowance which -- with a wife and
four children -- gives you €443.90 per week, or €23,083 annually.

As he also has a mortgage, he is entitled to mortgage interest supplement
which pays all the interest on your mortgage. In his case, this was €1,200
per month of his €1,500 mortgage, or €14,400 per annum.

He is also entitled to back-to-school and footwear payment of €905 per year
for four children, a medical card which is worth, on average, say €500 per
year (probably more) and a heating supplement which I cannot quantify.

In total, he now has tax-free income of €38,888, an increase in his net
income of €10,034 per year for working on his golf handicap.

Based on the calculations after the mini-Budget, you would need to earn
more than €47,000 per year if you have four children to justify continuing
to work.

This is even before taking into account the costs of working, such as
petrol, car maintenance, tolls, lunches and so on.

Now in any civilised society, and especially in a society in a deep
recession with a huge welfare bill, surely the government must give people
an incentive to go out and work

Making the child benefit taxable or means tested later this year is just
going to make the situation worse and encourage more people to give up work
and rely on the State to live.

It could even drive our small economy to collapse as the welfare bill gets
bigger and bigger as more people, including myself, ask: why should I
bother to go out to work when it is basically costing me money to work?

Unless something radically changes, I will be joining my mate on the golf
course very soon.
_______________________________________________________________

Kintarō Hattori

This has already been posted on After Hours and discussed at length in Politics.

sdanseo

It was in Work and Jobs :P

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59910657#post59910657

James Forde

hey! it's 3 days ago again

ntlbell

If you choose "past month" on Google news, you'll find even older articles

ShooterSF

Someday man will walk on the moon I tell's yas.

Chickus

Sorry, only heard of this today

sdanseo

Lol, why was this merged into AH rather than work/jobs (where it was originally)?