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Who do the Teachers think they are fooling?
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tallaght01 wrote: »LOL
Love it :pac::pac::pac:
Have you read the thread or just decided to jump in when it suited?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59876131#post59876131
We're not talking about holding placards outside an empty school in June, we're talking abot teachers getting up off their arses and strike during their 3 month holidays outside Dail Eireann, instead of affecting 5yr olds on their first day in Sept.
Big difference0 -
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Im in IT. We dont strike because we get paid well and are in demand enough to get some respect from our employers, so are not subject to abuse the way other sectors are. I also have a clause in my contract about unions. I dont even read it anymore. Basically it says "No unions". I dont need a union anyway.
And when we want to get rid of someone there are ways and means. Everyone always has an email they would rather resign over than be fired over
Ask 700 HP staff about their emails, who were let go (read fired intstead of made redundant) when i was there back during the .com bust.
Oh, so it's in your contract too, well at least I was telling porkys
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I worked in the private sector (large banking corporation in Stephen's Green; banking corporation in North Dublin;lab technician in food factory; office payroll worker). I worked 'eight' hours a day....I say 'eight' because in an average day I'd spend maybe half an hour surfing the net, another half hour talking to colleagues about stuff totally unrelated to work (not on break time). Fifteen minute breaks here and there for coffee. Went to the toilet whenever I wanted. Half hour breakfast break. One hour lunch. So on an average 'eight' hour day, I'd end up working for five hours and fifteen minutes. Notwithstanding those days where I just didn't feel up to being in work, and so spent the day 'looking busy'.
I've worked as a teacher for two years now. In an average 'six' (it's five hours an forty minutes by the way) hour day, I get a fifteen minute break, and half hour lunch. I talk to my colleagues on my breaks, if I talk to them during working hours, it's about work. I go to the toilet on my breaks because it's not feasible to leave a classrom of children if I want to answer nature's call. There's never a day that I can take it easy and 'look busy' just because I'm not in the mood for work. The school day adds up to four hours and fifty five mins. Not much difference between that and a private sector working day. However, add to that day maybe about another two/three hours of correcting/paperwork/finding resources for the classrroom and on average as a teacher, I'd work about seven/eight hours a day.
I'm going to assume that the people who are complaining about 'six hour days' (whenever I see that, it makes me laugh) have never worked as a teacher. I have worked in banks, offices, labs and classrooms and I can honestly say the teaching job is the toughest I've done so far. However, I love what I do. I'd love to continue what I'm doing, I don't know if I'll have a job next year. Even if I do get a job, due to bigger class sizes, I don't know if I'll be able to bring the level of professionalism to the classroom I'd like to bring. There are stingy feckers out there who are striking for money (there are stingy feckers in all sectors, not just the public sector by the way), but I know in my heart and soul that the majority of teachers love to bring out the best in the children in their classroom, and it will be far more difficult to do this when there are maybe five/six more children in the class.
Of course people are going to believe that ALL teachers are in it for the money/holidays/whatever next the government will feed the public to get them on their side. Anybody who goes into teaching for the holidays is a born fool, and wouldn't last a year in teaching. Anybody who goes into teaching for the pay obviously haven't got eyes in their heads, because the private sector will always earn more. Anyone who goes into teaching for security....well I wouldn't blame anyone going into a job for security (although just a few short years ago, I was looked upon as being crazy for leaving a well paid private sector job....now however, going by this thread as evidence, I'm looked upon as a salivating money grabber who strikes just for the hell of it, the children in class are the last thing on my mind. Just show me the money!!
)
Having been on both sides of the fence, my 2c.0 -
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I'lllearnye wrote: »I worked in the private sector (large banking corporation in Stephen's Green; banking corporation in North Dublin;lab technician in food factory; office payroll worker). I worked 'eight' hours a day....I say 'eight' because in an average day I'd spend maybe half an hour surfing the net, another half hour talking to colleagues about stuff totally unrelated to work (not on break time). Fifteen minute breaks here and there for coffee. Went to the toilet whenever I wanted. Half hour breakfast break. One hour lunch. So on an average 'eight' hour day, I'd end up working for five hours and fifteen minutes. Notwithstanding those days where I just didn't feel up to being in work, and so spent the day 'looking busy'.
I've worked as a teacher for two years now. In an average 'six' (it's five hours an forty minutes by the way) hour day, I get a fifteen minute break, and half hour lunch. I talk to my colleagues on my breaks, if I talk to them during working hours, it's about work. I go to the toilet on my breaks because it's not feasible to leave a classrom of children if I want to answer nature's call. There's never a day that I can take it easy and 'look busy' just because I'm not in the mood for work. The school day adds up to four hours and fifty five mins. Not much difference between that and a private sector working day. However, add to that day maybe about another two/three hours of correcting/paperwork/finding resources for the classrroom and on average as a teacher, I'd work about seven/eight hours a day.
I'm going to assume that the people who are complaining about 'six hour days' (whenever I see that, it makes me laugh) have never worked as a teacher. I have worked in banks, offices, labs and classrooms and I can honestly say the teaching job is the toughest I've done so far. However, I love what I do. I'd love to continue what I'm doing, I don't know if I'll have a job next year. Even if I do get a job, due to bigger class sizes, I don't know if I'll be able to bring the level of professionalism to the classroom I'd like to bring. There are stingy feckers out there who are striking for money (there are stingy feckers in all sectors, not just the public sector by the way), but I know in my heart and soul that the majority of teachers love to bring out the best in the children in their classroom, and it will be far more difficult to do this when there are maybe five/six more children in the class.
Of course people are going to believe that ALL teachers are in it for the money/holidays/whatever next the government will feed the public to get them on their side. Anybody who goes into teaching for the holidays is a born fool, and wouldn't last a year in teaching. Anybody who goes into teaching for the pay obviously haven't got eyes in their heads, because the private sector will always earn more. Anyone who goes into teaching for security....well I wouldn't blame anyone going into a job for security (although just a few short years ago, I was looked upon as being crazy for leaving a well paid private sector job....now however, going by this thread as evidence, I'm looked upon as a salivating money grabber who strikes just for the hell of it, the children in class are the last thing on my mind. Just show me the money!!)
Having been on both sides of the fence, my 2c.
You should start a thread on exactly what teachers do, for the benefit of people who somehow miss posts like yours, just so they can keep begrudging you your job.
They have no idea what a job involves or your salary scales. They could so easily find this out if they were bothered. But they will just find all the bs they have been saying will have to be retracted.0 -
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tallaght01 wrote:So, let's look at why they're talking about striking. It's because they're having money taken off them. presumably that's money that was negotiated with them previous, and presumably there's an agreement somewhere. It's been taken off them in the form of a pension levy, that only certain sectors of the population will have to pay
What a rant against the private sector.
Now, you agree they should strike over a tiny percentage been taken out of their €60kpa.
Guess the unemployed on €10kpa and the minimum wagers plus the rest of the workforce who earn nowhere near that €60kpa will agree with you 0 -
What a rant against the private sector.
Now, you agree they should strike over a tiny percentage been taken out of their €60kpa.
Guess the unemployed on €10kpa and the minimum wagers plus the rest of the workforce who earn nowhere near that €60kpa will agree with you
If you extend that logic, we should never allow strikes by any group, when any other group is worse off.
I also doubt most teachers are on 60k.0 -
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My understanding is that primary school class starts at 9:20. I know many teachers would go into the school at about 9:00 with the lazy ones showing up at about 9:15-9:20.
(My sister is a primary school teacher BTW).
I think you'll find that it's 8:40 or 8:50 in most schools and NO way 9:20. The DES curriculum has a timetable of how long you need for each subject so the working day has to be a certain length. If you start later, you have to end later.But they also get about 15mins at about 11am too and 5-10 mins at 2pm. Under law you are entitled to 15mins for every 4 hours you work. So on the days they are not supervising in the yard (which is most days) they get nearly 1 hour in breaks for a 6 hour day. That is pretty good and makes up for when they get the minimum amount on the days of supervising.
Haha! No. Just no. You get a TEN minutes little (morning) break. You get 30 minutes for lunch break. And that's only if the kids are all lined up, coats on, had a pee etc. and brought out to yard on time. The slower they are, the less break teacher has. You don't get a break at 2:00 as you are in the classroom. Maybe in some 2 teacher rural school but I've never heard of this practice. Who would supervise the classes if all teacher got random 5 minute breaks? You can only go to the toilet at your break time. Twice a week you supervise yard, one day is 25 minutes, the other day is 15 minutes.Nearly everytime I have been in the local national school 99% of the teachers are gone by 3:10. Some stay as late as 3:30 sometimes just to go on the internet. On fridays nobody stays behind - they are all out the door by 3:05.
And why shouldn't they be gone at 3.10? They are only paid until 2:30. So effectively are doing 40 min unpaid work every day as it is. Teaching is flexible as you are your own timekeeper. If you are knackered and can't face laminating, wiping tables or typing plans, go home at 2:30, you are finished work. However you might feel the need to stay until 4 the next day to catch up. If you don't put the work and planning in, then you will suffer for it. There is nothing worse than being in a classroom unprepared. The most trying and longest days imho, are the end of term half days when the kids just want to watch videos and do art.
As for me, well I stay every Friday until 4:30 so that I can type up my weekly lesson plans for my Dip folder. On average I stay until 3:30 every other day, my class are gone by 1:30 (I teach infants). So I do an hours unpaid work everyday.
As for the internet, thats highly filtered and you can barely access Gmail (which I would never do in school in case it remembered my details and the kids got in). Most teachers would be online to get resources or research. Not as if they are on boards.Teachers involved in after school activities are often paid extra by being assigned "posts". Those posts pay a few thousand extra per year.
Wrong again. After school activities aren't given to post holders (except for breakfast Club in disadvantaged schools). Post B jobs are for things like putting up displays in the corridor, buying the coffee/tea at the warehouse, ordering art supplies, managing the computers, ordering the school books, making the whole school policies for the subjects, attending workshops for Maths/ English programs. Anyways, extra pay for these posts has been scrapped by the Dept.
After school clubs can be done by a worker from the School Completion program alongside the class teacher. I did this for 10 weeks and got €240, and was taxed €98 on this. :rolleyes: Choirs, football clubs, chess clubs etc. are done by the teachers and afaik, in my school the teachers do it for teh benefit of the kids and don;t get extra pay.So It is very rare to see a primary school teacher in the school over the summer holidays. Maybe some of the older teachers come in the odd time but the younger teachers are usually gone abroad. Generally the teachers might come in a couple of days before the start of the new year to make sure everything is ok in the classroom and they will spend a few hours at home preparing for stuff. Again., it is the new teachers that spend the most time preparing but that is just because they are not experienced.
They don't need to be in the school during the holidays. It's up to them again, if they feel the need to put up displays, throw things out, rearrange furniture etc. Young teachers can go abroad if they like. They are on holidays. And not all teachers are paid for these holidays. Only if they were lucky enough to be made permanent. Many teachers do courses in the summer.
Yes, new teachers spend more time preparing, they also get paid the least and are being levied/taxed highly too. People are being incredibly bitter, disguntled and out of line in their comments. It's hard on a new teacher to be caught up in all of this and tarred with the same brush during a year that is hard enough on them with inspectors and all.The communion doesn't really take much of a weekend and many people in jobs have to work the odd weekend for whatever reason.
It's ridiculous that so much of the year is spent doing the Communion prep in a STATE paid for school. It's also teacher's good will to attend the communion on a weekend. Teacher in my school has a wedding that day, she is going to the communion in the morning in Dublin and will have to drive down the country after it.Often many teachers have SNAs which they use to supervise children when they are doing things and use them when going on trips too.
SNAs aren't insured to be with the children without a teacher, so no, they can't be left to supervise. Also, the SNA is for the child not the teacher and should not be treated as a classroom assistant. Again, trips... Teachers don't get paid extra for these and we don't get overtime if they get back to the school late.I wouldnt ' like the job but then again most of the teachers wouldnt like my job either (IT). Saying it is a harder job is subjective - it might be to you but maybe not to them. They get paid a lot more than me too.
Anything that is possibly hard about their job is made up for with extended summer holidays. I certainly would rather be teacher in a primary school than a cop in a dodgy area and from what I know the teacher earns more starting out (not even including the other perks).
Again, the summer holidays seems to be the only argument that people have to throw at teachers. Say if we didn't have them what would they bitch about then? There's not much teachers can do about that unless parents want their kids in school during the summer? And only PERMANENT teachers get paid, others have to find work during the holidays and many need a new job in a new school that September.
Teacher's starting salary: €1334 - 1412 per fortnight (depending on higher/ordinary degree). Pretty reasonable I must admit.
Deductions:
- Tax
- PRSI
- Pension Levy
- Salary Protection
- Pension Grouped
- INTO
- Sp & Ch Pension
- Income levy
Total: €961 per fortnight after deductions (€373).
I don't know but it doesn't seem like there should be a huge fuss made.
Most young teachers would be coming out with under €1000 in hand a fortnight depending on the tax bands and whether they have AVCs or not.
For someone who spent 3-4 years in college, hmm.. you decide if it's worth the fuss or not.
Again, the government is picking on middle class and making scapegoats for the private sector to take their frustration out on, I'm pretty sure you won't find any crooked or corrupt teachers with millions in secret accounts. Except for the ones that went into politics of course.. At least those classroom positions they were still holding are available now and they won't be getting their DES pensions also. That's a step in the right direction. 0 -
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kickoutthejams wrote: »You're applying a blanket generalisation about American IT companies?
Ok.
Can you provide proof that these companies will up and leave over joining unions in a general sense? (aside from the example you gave from Holland)
You seem to think that employers are all a bunch of evil fat cats out to stick over the workers, waiting for you to slip up so they can vindicate you having the gall to join a union.
Not at all I've said it more times, I'm in one of the top 10 company's to work for, I have an excellent work environment, I'm treated extremely well and I've worked for most of the big american IT company's at some point and I was treated pretty much the same in all.
These are not looking for me to step out of line to fire me.
But if you start to rock the boat you will be thrown overboard without a second thought.
it happens all the time.
Look man, When I first started working they used to call me SIPTU in work because it frustrated me that even tho I ws treated well I would have liking to be able to strike if the right reason every came up.
Before you get the half the word out Stri...a manager knows about it and your out on your ear.
You start to learn over time which side your bread is buttered on and you get on with the job.
I love my job, I love my employers, They luuuuurve me
But if i even dreamnt about talking about unions I would be on my ear before I woke up
it's _THAT_ simple
I'm not going to respond to anymore posts on this because I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to my kid 0 -
I seem to remember when the had their strike in 2000 one of their big arguments was WE DO IT FOR THE STUDENTS all the while they let the strike run on so long it endangered Cert Mocks and Exams.
Theres some great teachers out there, don't get me wrong, but I have no respect for SIPTU practices.
Do SIPTU represent teachers? Are they even involved in this?
I thought
INTO for primary
ASTI for secondary
TUI for third level
Where does SIPTU fit in?
Are if they aren't involved with teachers what shady practices have you seen Overheal?
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midlandsmissus wrote: »dripping in wealth teacher
And you claim the teachers are the ones talking nonsense? 0 -
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tallaght01 wrote: »And you claim the teachers are the ones talking nonsense?
Well let's see where I'm getting my opinion from....any teacher I know certainly isn't on the breadline..... 0 -
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I don't know what school you work in but the local school where i'm from the earliest teachers show up is 9am with some showing up at 9:15am. I know this because I used to do a lot of work in that school two in my family work in the school (one as a teacher). It is a school of about 300.Lil Kitten wrote: »I think you'll find that it's 8:40 or 8:50 in most schools and NO way 9:20. The DES curriculum has a timetable of how long you need for each subject so the working day has to be a certain length. If you start later, you have to end later.
In the school im talking about the kids go out for about 5-10 mins at about 2pm so the same supervision as lunch etc happens.Lil Kitten wrote: »Haha! No. Just no. You get a TEN minutes little (morning) break. You get 30 minutes for lunch break. And that's only if the kids are all lined up, coats on, had a pee etc. and brought out to yard on time. The slower they are, the less break teacher has. You don't get a break at 2:00 as you are in the classroom. Maybe in some 2 teacher rural school but I've never heard of this practice. Who would supervise the classes if all teacher got random 5 minute breaks? You can only go to the toilet at your break time. Twice a week you supervise yard, one day is 25 minutes, the other day is 15 minutes.
Again, I don't know how your school operates but the opening time in this school class starts at 9:20am and class ends at 3:00pm (2pm for baby infants and senior infants).Lil Kitten wrote: »And why shouldn't they be gone at 3.10? They are only paid until 2:30. So effectively are doing 40 min unpaid work every day as it is. Teaching is flexible as you are your own timekeeper. If you are knackered and can't face laminating, wiping tables or typing plans, go home at 2:30, you are finished work. However you might feel the need to stay until 4 the next day to catch up. If you don't put the work and planning in, then you will suffer for it. There is nothing worse than being in a classroom unprepared. The most trying and longest days imho, are the end of term half days when the kids just want to watch videos and do art.
You are in a different situation since you are doing you h dip thus you have to have everything up to scratch. Your work in not really unpaid since you are still effectively still learning and are not fully qualified.Lil Kitten wrote: »As for me, well I stay every Friday until 4:30 so that I can type up my weekly lesson plans for my Dip folder. On average I stay until 3:30 every other day, my class are gone by 1:30 (I teach infants). So I do an hours unpaid work everyday.
That is your school. The schools have options on how much they are filtered. At many of the schools email and the teachers favourte - ryanair.com and aerlingus.com are fully accessible. I know this because I worked IT supporting about 5 schools.Lil Kitten wrote: »As for the internet, thats highly filtered and you can barely access Gmail (which I would never do in school in case it remembered my details and the kids got in). Most teachers would be online to get resources or research. Not as if they are on boards.
There is a PE post for example and that would generally be given to the person who trains the main team(s). Posts are worked out for those who do the extra bits so they are generally rewarded as such.Lil Kitten wrote: »Wrong again. After school activities aren't given to post holders (except for breakfast Club in disadvantaged schools). Post B jobs are for things like putting up displays in the corridor, buying the coffee/tea at the warehouse, ordering art supplies, managing the computers, ordering the school books, making the whole school policies for the subjects, attending workshops for Maths/ English programs. Anyways, extra pay for these posts has been scrapped by the Dept.
It depends on the school but often they are rewarded with the posts that they don't really have to do work with and get a few thousand extra a year.Lil Kitten wrote: »After school clubs can be done by a worker from the School Completion program alongside the class teacher. I did this for 10 weeks and got €240, and was taxed €98 on this. :rolleyes: Choirs, football clubs, chess clubs etc. are done by the teachers and afaik, in my school the teachers do it for teh benefit of the kids and don;t get extra pay.
Those on a temporary contract are basically the same as anyone in the private sector that is on temporary contract. Teachers should not just expect permanent status just because they are qualified.Lil Kitten wrote: »They don't need to be in the school during the holidays. It's up to them again, if they feel the need to put up displays, throw things out, rearrange furniture etc. Young teachers can go abroad if they like. They are on holidays. And not all teachers are paid for these holidays. Only if they were lucky enough to be made permanent. Many teachers do courses in the summer.
That is like any job starting out whereby you start on a lower salary. Thus they deserve no more sympathy - you dont see everyone else out striking?Lil Kitten wrote: »Yes, new teachers spend more time preparing, they also get paid the least and are being levied/taxed highly too. People are being incredibly bitter, disguntled and out of line in their comments. It's hard on a new teacher to be caught up in all of this and tarred with the same brush during a year that is hard enough on them with inspectors and all.
I agree that relgion should not be thought in schools unless the teachers teach about all religions and not just one. It should never be practiced in the school by the teachers with the kids.Lil Kitten wrote: »It's ridiculous that so much of the year is spent doing the Communion prep in a STATE paid for school. It's also teacher's good will to attend the communion on a weekday. Teacher in my school has a wedding that day, she is going to the communion in the morning in Dublin and will have to drive down the country after it.
In the real world SNAs do do this work whether insured or not.Lil Kitten wrote: »SNAs aren't insured to be with the children without a teacher, so no, they can't be left to supervise. Also, the SNA is for the child not the teacher and should not be treated as a classroom assistant. Again, trips... Teachers don't get paid extra for these and we don't get overtime if they get back to the school late.
So would you be ok with education camps in the summer and working at these as part of your current salary? I thought not. I'm sure summer school can be arranged except the government knows that the teachers will refuse to do it and ask for more money.Lil Kitten wrote: »Again, the summer holidays seems to be the only argument that people have to throw at teachers. Say if we didn't have them what would they bitch about then? Again, there's not much teachers can do about that unless parents want their kids in school during the summer? And only PERMANENT teachers get paid, others have to find work during the holidays and many need a new job in a new school that September.
Seems like pretty good money for me and if you get made permanent you have hit jackpot compared to the private sector where you dont have the same job security nor time off.Lil Kitten wrote: »Teacher's starting salary: €1334 - 1412 per fortnight (depending on higher/ordinary degree). Pretty reasonable I must admit.
Deductions:
- Tax
- PRSI
- Pension Levy
- Salary Protection
- Pension Grouped
- INTO
- Sp & Ch Pension
- Income levy
Total: €961 per fortnight after deductions (€373).
I don't know but it doesn't seem like there should be a huge fuss made.
Most young teachers would be coming out with under €1000 in hand a fortnight depending on the tax bands and whether they have AVCs or not.
The government cannot tax the private sector extra and they cannot control pay there but they can control the public sector pay and ask the private sector to fall into line.Lil Kitten wrote: »Again, the government is picking on middle class and making scapegoats for the private sector to take their frustration out on, I'm pretty sure you won't find any crooked or corrupt teachers with millions in secret accounts. Except for the ones that went into politics of course.. At least those classroom positions they were still holding are available now and they won't be getting their DES pensions also. That's a step in the right direction.
The teachers like everyone else have to take a hit. Instead of whinging about it how about helping the situation by helping out more so as to reduce costs.0 -
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Not at all I've said it more times, I'm in one of the top 10 company's to work for, I have an excellent work environment, I'm treated extremely well and I've worked for most of the big american IT company's at some point and I was treated pretty much the same in all.
These are not looking for me to step out of line to fire me.
But if you start to rock the boat you will be thrown overboard without a second thought.
it happens all the time.
Look man, When I first started working they used to call me SIPTU in work because it frustrated me that even tho I ws treated well I would have liking to be able to strike if the right reason every came up.
Before you get the half the word out Stri...a manager knows about it and your out on your ear.
You start to learn over time which side your bread is buttered on and you get on with the job.
I love my job, I love my employers, They luuuuurve me
But if i even dreamnt about talking about unions I would be on my ear before I woke up
it's _THAT_ simple
I'm not going to respond to anymore posts on this because I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to my kid
Even if the employer is a good one, I still like to be in a union for the protection it offers. I've never had a personal reason to argue with management, so the union won't be needed. I'd hardly be paying €5 a week for something I don't need, however, if I am in any trouble, the union will be there should I need it. I view it as insurance. I have no need to rock the boat and it would not be in the unions interests for me to do so anyway.0 -
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