Who do the Teachers think they are fooling?

FlutterinBantam

That about sums it up sure enough.

dr.bollocko

The absence of public funds would not be a reason for any union to decide against strike action.

FlutterinBantam

True enough, some of them would be stupid enough to go along with it.

chosen1

Dudess wrote: »

Well you'll obviously have to do a certain amount of planning for the next day - you're not going to know everything off by heart from last year or the year before.

It wouldn't be possible to get their job done properly if that were the case. And how do you know?

How on earth could you possibly know that?

First point I was responding to someone who said they had to plan out an entire class every day. Agree with you it does take a certain amount of planning but experience will shorten planning.

How do I know about teachers not doing their job? Did you not see the part where i said from my experience?
Its not too difficult to tell who the good teachers from the ones who clearly shouldn't be teaching. There are plenty of examples of teachers who shouldn't be in their job and there is nothing in place at the moment to get rid of them. The current subject inspections don't work as you have a weeks notice of any inspection.
How do I know that they tend to be the most vocal? Again I didn't say always but in my experience this tends to be the case. Even know one ex-president of a teachers union giving out about the levy and how hard teachers work, but at the same time this person regularly forgets about classes cause they're too busy in the staffroom drinking coffee.

Also think this thread should be closed. Was a similar one a few months back where the topic just went round and round in circles and absolutely nothing achieved in the end.

FlutterinBantam

What do you want to be achieved??

Thrill

chosen1 wrote: »

How do I know about teachers not doing their job? Did you not see the part where i said from my experience?

Your experience as what though?

Your experience as a teacher? A principle? Member of the board of management?

chosen1

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

What do you want to be achieved??

This thread is going on for 64 pages already. If there were another 64 I bet you'll still have the same pro-teacher and anti-teacher people with the same arguments.

Winning someone over to their way of thinking would be an achievement which is not going to happen in this case.

gurramok

joseph brand wrote: »

Your type is hard to be the read???

Also, stop comparing teachers, (well educated, college grads) with low paid anybody jobs. Jobs which require no qualification. Why not compare the taste of an apple versus licking cement, it's just ludicrous.

Another who has not followed the discussion.

That post you quoted me was in response to teachers claiming they face more danger in their job than anyone else which is just a lie.

Have it not come across to you that that person in the low paid job could of been let go recently from a third level qualification job and needs to the dosh to meet ends?!

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

chosen1 wrote: »

This thread is going on for 64 pages already. If there were another 64 I bet you'll still have the same pro-teacher and anti-teacher people with the same arguments.

Winning someone over to their way of thinking would be an achievement which is not going to happen in this case.

It's the same in all threads though...

chosen1

Thrill wrote: »

Your experience as what though?

Your experience as a teacher? A principle? Member of the board of management?

My experience would be being a teacher in 3 different schools. Trust me it becomes common knowledge the teachers who are not doing their job.

Its not a big proportion of teachers at all, but they are the ones giving others a bad name and at the moment there's very little that can be done about it.

gurramok

Dudess wrote: »

Agreed. As you can see, I'm defending teachers to the bitter end... but there is just no point in striking in the current economic conditions. It's futile. The money ain't there - and that's the case throughout the public sector.

Yes and teachers on lucrative pay just cannot see that the money ain't there and yet they moan about everyone else but themselves.

byhookorbycrook

Hero teachers a class apart

By Eamonn Sweeney


Sunday April 19 2009. Sunday Independent

When Thurles CBS edged out Good Counsel New Ross by 1-17 to 1-15 in one of the finest All-Ireland senior colleges hurling finals in recent memory on Easter Monday in Semple Stadium, it brought down the curtain on a vintage schools GAA season.

They're all vintage in their own way of course, anyone who follows colleges football and hurling will see more than their fair share of classics. But the vital dimension of novelty was added this season as unfamiliar names contested the finals of the Croke and Hogan Cups.

Thurles CBS may be a famous hurling academy but their win in this year's Harty Cup final was their first in 53 years and this was their first All-Ireland victory. Good Counsel were making only their second ever All-Ireland final appearance. That made the decider a big, and welcome change, from the years between 1996 and 2005 when St Kieran's, Kilkenny, St Flannan's, Ennis and St Colman's, Fermoy divided ten Croke Cups between them.

The unlikely hero of the final was Michael O'Brien, a superb example of that colleges staple, the nippy corner-forward who scored 1-5 from play for the winners. O'Brien was an unlikely hero because he comes from Clonmel, a town associated with Tipperary football more than hurling. Also starring was his fellow corner-forward Diarmuid Fogarty who bagged three points from play. Diarmuid is the son of Sean Fogarty who last year gave a hugely dignified and decent speech after a crushing defeat in the race for GAA president. Fogarty pere was compensated on Monday when, in his capacity as chairman of the GAA Post Primary Schools Committee, he presented the Croke Cup to his son's school.

It was the finish which provided most of the drama in the Hogan Cup final in Portlaoise on Good Friday. St Marys of Edenderry, playing in their first ever All-Ireland final, led Colaiste Na Sceilge of Caherciveen by a point entering the second and final minute of injury-time. With 17 seconds left on the clock, full-forward Eanna O'Connor pounced for a goal to see the Kerry team home by 1-9 to 0-10.

Eanna, by the way, is the son of Colaiste Na Sceilge manager Jack who is apparently quite a well-known figure at senior level. My heart went out to the boys from Edenderry, not least because I can remember the school playing a major part in the 1992 All-Ireland Colleges B final won by Banada Abbey of Sligo whose star midfielder Eamonn O'Hara looked like one for the future that day in Hyde Park.

Then again Colaiste Na Sceilge are no traditional power either. This was their first ever Hogan Cup victory and they deserved an All-Ireland if only as compensation for 2002 when they played what may be the finest Gaelic football match I've ever seen, an All-Ireland semi-final which ended in a 0-23 each draw with St Jarlath's, Tuam after extra-time in Limerick. Michael Meehan was at full-forward for Jarlath's that day and hit seven points from play, Declan O'Sullivan was at full-forward for Colaiste Na Sceilge and hit four. Jarlath's won the replay narrowly and the All-Ireland final easily. That particular group of Caherciveen footballers ended their careers without a Hogan Cup. So perhaps the gods did owe the school one.

The Hogan Cup and Croke Cup finals get plenty of media attention but there were other teams lower down the schools pecking order who also did extraordinary things over the past season, none more so than the junior hurlers of Causeway Comprehensive School.

Causeway draws its players from the gallant knot of North Kerry clubs who keep hurling alive in the Kingdom and they became the first team from the county to ever win an A hurling title when they literally beat Banagher, defeating the Offaly College 2-8 to 1-7 in the Vocational Schools decider in Limerick.

Another school striking a blow for the marginalised hurling counties was Cross and Passion from Ballycastle, the heartland of the game in Antrim. The school won its first ever All-Ireland title when they defeated Dublin's Colaiste Eoin in the B Colleges decider, thanks largely to full-back Matthew Donnelly, who pointed two frees from over 100 yards and landed a goal with another long-range effort, and wing-forward Ciaran Clarke who amassed 2-6, 2-2 of it from play. Everywhere you look, there were great stories in the schools competitions. There was the odyssey of Colaiste Mhuire, Strokestown who had to go to extra-time in both the semi-final and final of the Connacht Colleges C football competition and who, early in the All-Ireland decider against Aquinas Grammar School of Belfast, saw their star full-forward Colin Compton carried off with a shoulder injury serious enough to hold the game up for several minutes. Strokestown knuckled down once more and came through by 1-11 to 2-3.

You had St Paul's, Kilrea from Derry who sparkled all the way through the Junior A Vocational Schools football campaign, racking up a total of 5-33 in runaway semi-final and final wins, 1-15 of that from centre half-forward Benny Quigg, all but four points of his haul coming from play. There was the continuing excellence of St Brigid's Loughrea whose Senior A Vocational Schools hurling victory made it a superb six in a decade for the school. At the other end of the scale were the senior footballers of Colaiste Dun Iascaigh in Cahir, who became the first team of lads from the school to play an All-Ireland final in any sport when they met Cnoc Mhuire of Granard in the Vocational Schools B final in Portarlington. Trailing by six points with 12 minutes left, having never led, they managed to bring the game to extra-time and win by 2-19 to 2-18. There are a lot of heroes out there.

And the greatest heroes of all are the teachers up and down the country who put in work with the teams, in big schools and small, successful ones and unsuccessful ones, which they're not obliged to do and which they carry out without worrying about personal inconvenience, purely because they love football and hurling and know that the lessons the students learn on the field may build their characters just as much as those they learn in the classroom. They are impressive people. It's no coincidence that the finest GAA managers of the modern era, Brian Cody, Mickey Harte, Ger Loughnane, John Allen, John O'Mahony and Donal O'Grady all are, or were, teachers.

It's worth remembering that huge contribution at a time when a rabble of Thatcherite dunces seem to have decided that, instead of blaming the careless bankers, venal politicians and arrogant developers who've landed us in the current mess, they should attack the nation's teachers.

These heroes, their bitterness exceeded only by their ignorance, tell us that teachers, "add nothing to the wealth of the country." Perhaps somebody could explain to them that making money in the private sector would be pretty difficult if someone hadn't taken the time to teach you to read, write and add. Or that people in jobs which add little to the store of public good, journalists for example, should hesitate to criticise people without whom society would fall apart.

There would be no Hogan or Croke Cup finals if teaching was judged solely by the profit motive. Because there's no money in training school sports teams, no financial payback at all. It costs schools money. An efficiency expert would tell you the teachers would be better off doing something else. You could even say that school sports teams, " add nothing to the wealth of the country."

And that would be true if you're one of those people who believes that the only kind of wealth is financial wealth. But in Thurles and Caherciveen, in Causeway and Ballycastle, in Strokestown and Cahir and Kilrea, they might disagree with you.

They know better.

thephotograph@hotmail.com

- Eamonn Sweeney

gurramok

chosen1 wrote: »

My experience would be being a teacher in 3 different schools. Trust me it becomes common knowledge the teachers who are not doing their job.

Its not a big proportion of teachers at all, but they are the ones giving others a bad name and at the moment there's very little that can be done about it.

I raised that issue too earlier in the thread about unsackable bad teachers and all i got were cries of begrudgery!:eek:

I'lllearnye

ntlbell wrote: »

Because you constantly pick up what I say wrong like accusing me of using my child as a spy, so i wanted to make it very clear for you the situation.

Er this is After Hours, isn't it? :pac:
And I'd like to refer to the post where you 'accused' me of not doing my job by not teaching punctuation. Don't dish it if you can't take it mister.

I think she is doing her job, I don't expect a teacher to be teaching for every minute of the day i don't see how a child could take that in.

I've also spoke to friends who are teachers and say the same thing there is times during the day where there's time it may not be loads of times but if you add it up over a month you can get plenty of work done

this sounds perfectly acceptable to me



surley if a class is doing some "questions" or something you can be available for questions do some work at your desk and scan the room? is it really that difficult? all my teachers throughout all my years were very capable of doing it? and lots of them are still teaching today?

I'm happy to hear that...it shows you don't begrudge the pay teachers get.

I'm not assuming anything, someone is telling porkys.

I don't think she has a lackadaisical approach? I think if she can get some work done during a lull during the day when kids are working on something or answering questions or doing whatever that they could use this time to do something else?

after what i have read here, i will be asking her.

Your daughter's teacher does paperwork in the classroom, good for her Anything to get the paperwork done. I don't do paperwork in the classroom, I would love to have the chance to do it, but I don't get it. Different folks, different strokes.

i think she's doing an excellent job, I have NO problems with her at all NONE see? you didn't let that sink in now did you?

If your daughter's teacher is doing an excellent job, why did you ask your daughter what she does in the classroom? Do you not trust your daughter's teacher? Don't tell me you asked for this information just so you could go 'Ha, I told you so' on an anonymous internet forum?

I'm very happy with my childs progress and speaking to other parents at the school they're all very happy

so my question is, if her teacher can do it? my friends can do it?

why can the rest of you not do it?

Oh sure I could do some paperwork in the classroom if I got the chance and I wanted to shorten the amount of hours I put in after school. It still doesn't mean I wouldn't do any work after school.

I'lllearnye

ntlbell wrote: »

I think I asked you what you think they should be.

e.g. how many people could you comfortably manage and provide for them all?

in your opinion

I'd like a class of 27/28, I'm trained to deal with a class that size. Anything less would be a bonus, for me and the pupils in the class.

I'lllearnye

gurramok wrote: »

I raised that issue too earlier in the thread about unsackable bad teachers and all i got were cries of begrudgery!:eek:

Tsk, know your audience. If you didn't bang on about 60k and striking during the holidays, people wouldn't have called you a begrudger.

gurramok

I'lllearnye wrote: »

Tsk, know your audience. If you didn't bang on about 60k and striking during the holidays, people wouldn't have called you a begrudger.

Oh come on, i just stated facts and then the hurl of begrudgery cries which came mostly from teachers arrived, how ironic!

They chose to ignore the valid points and went on a rant rampage!

I'lllearnye

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Hero teachers a class apart

By Eamonn Sweeney


Sunday April 19 2009. Sunday Independent

When Thurles CBS edged out Good Counsel New Ross by 1-17 to 1-15 in one of the finest All-Ireland senior colleges hurling finals in recent memory on Easter Monday in Semple Stadium, it brought down the curtain on a vintage schools GAA season.

They're all vintage in their own way of course, anyone who follows colleges football and hurling will see more than their fair share of classics. But the vital dimension of novelty was added this season as unfamiliar names contested the finals of the Croke and Hogan Cups.

Thurles CBS may be a famous hurling academy but their win in this year's Harty Cup final was their first in 53 years and this was their first All-Ireland victory. Good Counsel were making only their second ever All-Ireland final appearance. That made the decider a big, and welcome change, from the years between 1996 and 2005 when St Kieran's, Kilkenny, St Flannan's, Ennis and St Colman's, Fermoy divided ten Croke Cups between them.

The unlikely hero of the final was Michael O'Brien, a superb example of that colleges staple, the nippy corner-forward who scored 1-5 from play for the winners. O'Brien was an unlikely hero because he comes from Clonmel, a town associated with Tipperary football more than hurling. Also starring was his fellow corner-forward Diarmuid Fogarty who bagged three points from play. Diarmuid is the son of Sean Fogarty who last year gave a hugely dignified and decent speech after a crushing defeat in the race for GAA president. Fogarty pere was compensated on Monday when, in his capacity as chairman of the GAA Post Primary Schools Committee, he presented the Croke Cup to his son's school.

It was the finish which provided most of the drama in the Hogan Cup final in Portlaoise on Good Friday. St Marys of Edenderry, playing in their first ever All-Ireland final, led Colaiste Na Sceilge of Caherciveen by a point entering the second and final minute of injury-time. With 17 seconds left on the clock, full-forward Eanna O'Connor pounced for a goal to see the Kerry team home by 1-9 to 0-10.

Eanna, by the way, is the son of Colaiste Na Sceilge manager Jack who is apparently quite a well-known figure at senior level. My heart went out to the boys from Edenderry, not least because I can remember the school playing a major part in the 1992 All-Ireland Colleges B final won by Banada Abbey of Sligo whose star midfielder Eamonn O'Hara looked like one for the future that day in Hyde Park.

Then again Colaiste Na Sceilge are no traditional power either. This was their first ever Hogan Cup victory and they deserved an All-Ireland if only as compensation for 2002 when they played what may be the finest Gaelic football match I've ever seen, an All-Ireland semi-final which ended in a 0-23 each draw with St Jarlath's, Tuam after extra-time in Limerick. Michael Meehan was at full-forward for Jarlath's that day and hit seven points from play, Declan O'Sullivan was at full-forward for Colaiste Na Sceilge and hit four. Jarlath's won the replay narrowly and the All-Ireland final easily. That particular group of Caherciveen footballers ended their careers without a Hogan Cup. So perhaps the gods did owe the school one.

The Hogan Cup and Croke Cup finals get plenty of media attention but there were other teams lower down the schools pecking order who also did extraordinary things over the past season, none more so than the junior hurlers of Causeway Comprehensive School.

Causeway draws its players from the gallant knot of North Kerry clubs who keep hurling alive in the Kingdom and they became the first team from the county to ever win an A hurling title when they literally beat Banagher, defeating the Offaly College 2-8 to 1-7 in the Vocational Schools decider in Limerick.

Another school striking a blow for the marginalised hurling counties was Cross and Passion from Ballycastle, the heartland of the game in Antrim. The school won its first ever All-Ireland title when they defeated Dublin's Colaiste Eoin in the B Colleges decider, thanks largely to full-back Matthew Donnelly, who pointed two frees from over 100 yards and landed a goal with another long-range effort, and wing-forward Ciaran Clarke who amassed 2-6, 2-2 of it from play. Everywhere you look, there were great stories in the schools competitions. There was the odyssey of Colaiste Mhuire, Strokestown who had to go to extra-time in both the semi-final and final of the Connacht Colleges C football competition and who, early in the All-Ireland decider against Aquinas Grammar School of Belfast, saw their star full-forward Colin Compton carried off with a shoulder injury serious enough to hold the game up for several minutes. Strokestown knuckled down once more and came through by 1-11 to 2-3.

You had St Paul's, Kilrea from Derry who sparkled all the way through the Junior A Vocational Schools football campaign, racking up a total of 5-33 in runaway semi-final and final wins, 1-15 of that from centre half-forward Benny Quigg, all but four points of his haul coming from play. There was the continuing excellence of St Brigid's Loughrea whose Senior A Vocational Schools hurling victory made it a superb six in a decade for the school. At the other end of the scale were the senior footballers of Colaiste Dun Iascaigh in Cahir, who became the first team of lads from the school to play an All-Ireland final in any sport when they met Cnoc Mhuire of Granard in the Vocational Schools B final in Portarlington. Trailing by six points with 12 minutes left, having never led, they managed to bring the game to extra-time and win by 2-19 to 2-18. There are a lot of heroes out there.

And the greatest heroes of all are the teachers up and down the country who put in work with the teams, in big schools and small, successful ones and unsuccessful ones, which they're not obliged to do and which they carry out without worrying about personal inconvenience, purely because they love football and hurling and know that the lessons the students learn on the field may build their characters just as much as those they learn in the classroom. They are impressive people. It's no coincidence that the finest GAA managers of the modern era, Brian Cody, Mickey Harte, Ger Loughnane, John Allen, John O'Mahony and Donal O'Grady all are, or were, teachers.

It's worth remembering that huge contribution at a time when a rabble of Thatcherite dunces seem to have decided that, instead of blaming the careless bankers, venal politicians and arrogant developers who've landed us in the current mess, they should attack the nation's teachers.

These heroes, their bitterness exceeded only by their ignorance, tell us that teachers, "add nothing to the wealth of the country." Perhaps somebody could explain to them that making money in the private sector would be pretty difficult if someone hadn't taken the time to teach you to read, write and add. Or that people in jobs which add little to the store of public good, journalists for example, should hesitate to criticise people without whom society would fall apart.

There would be no Hogan or Croke Cup finals if teaching was judged solely by the profit motive. Because there's no money in training school sports teams, no financial payback at all. It costs schools money. An efficiency expert would tell you the teachers would be better off doing something else. You could even say that school sports teams, " add nothing to the wealth of the country."

And that would be true if you're one of those people who believes that the only kind of wealth is financial wealth. But in Thurles and Caherciveen, in Causeway and Ballycastle, in Strokestown and Cahir and Kilrea, they might disagree with you.

They know better.

thephotograph@hotmail.com

- Eamonn Sweeney

Reading threads like this, it's hard to feel valued for the work, time and energy you put in. I personally feel that teachers are being blamed for everything that's gone wrong in this country . Which, excuse my French, is a steaming crock of sh#t.

Thank you byhookorbycrook, your positive post (as were others who posted positively) was most welcome.

I hope we all make it through these bad times, with nothing more than a few scrapes to show for it

gurramok

I'lllearnye wrote: »

Reading threads like this, it's hard to feel valued for the work, time and energy you put in. I personally feel that teachers are being blamed for everything that's gone wrong in this country . Which, excuse my French, is a steaming crock of sh#t.

Teachers are not been blamed for all that went wrong, they too are valued like every other worker.

The rest of us just ask that they chip in their fair share of taxes and its not to much ask considering their huge pay?

I'lllearnye

gurramok wrote: »

Oh come on, i just stated facts and then the hurl of begrudgery cries which came mostly from teachers arrived, how ironic!

They chose to ignore the valid points and went on a rant rampage!

It's not ironic. You told me that I'm not entitled to the holidays or pay I get.
Would you like it if I told you that you're not entitled to the money or holidays you get?

I'lllearnye

gurramok wrote: »

Teachers are not been blamed for all that went wrong, they too are valued like every other worker.

The rest of us just ask that they chip in their fair share of taxes and its not to much ask considering their huge pay?

I'm delighted to hear that teachers are valued, hard to believe reading this thread. Just try reading it through the eyes of a teacher and you'll see where I'm coming from.

Oh and I repeat, I don't get huge pay so I take offence to you saying I should pay more taxes bercause I get huge pay.

gurramok

I'lllearnye wrote: »

It's not ironic. You told me that I'm not entitled to the holidays or pay I get.
Would you like it if I told you that you're not entitled to the money or holidays you get?

Where did i say that?

Which is it, money or holidays? I merely pointed out how generous the average teacher gets.

I said its insulting that teachers could not find a single day on their long holidays to orgainise a protest outside Dail Eireann instead of using kids education as pawns in Sept.

gurramok

I'lllearnye wrote: »

I'm delighted to hear that teachers are valued, hard to believe reading this thread. Just try reading it through the eyes of a teacher and you'll see where I'm coming from.

Oh and I repeat, I don't get huge pay so I take offence to you saying I should pay more taxes bercause I get huge pay.

I didn't offend you, I did not say you get huge pay, i said teachers get huge pay. That 60k figure is the average and it sounds your below the average as you have qualms with it.

Regarding taxes, we all have to chip in, now why should teachers be excluded?

Catari Jaguar

gurramok wrote: »

Teachers are not been blamed for all that went wrong, they too are valued like every other worker.

The rest of us just ask that they chip in their fair share of taxes and its not to much ask considering their huge pay?

There are MANY tax evaders that get away scot free in this country... (Bono for example!!) Teachers pay tax and PRSI. They also pay the 1% income levy and will pay it when it increases along with the health levy. What's your point? We DO chip in our fair share. The dept expects us to make up the short fall because they squandered all the money instead of investing it where it belonged e.g. in schools. They worsen teaching conditions and expect us to pay for the privilege. That's not on. How can you not see this?!

It's unfair that teachers that already contribute to their state (and some private) pensions are being forced to pay a set amount roughly €200 extra per month into this "pension levy" when we won't be making a return on that investment (it's stealth tax from those cheating liars in FF). Like myself, many of the younger teachers won't be retiring for up to 40 years yet we are getting deducted against our will. This isn't the 1970s, there are no free state teaching pensions. Get down off your high horses.

The government spent €1.6 million on private travel this year, TDs earn upwards of €100,000 and have UNRECEIPTED expenses averaging €39,905 per year AS WELL as just handing themselves their raises. On top of this, the country's 60 senators claimed almost €3m between January and November last year!

But no, it's the teachers fault.. the country simply "can't afford teachers" :rolleyes: Why aren't you lot outside the Dáil protesting this instead of picking on some teacher on the Internet from behind your computer screen.

If you're so ballsy and cocksure go bitch on the boards at www.educationposts.ie and get the REAL information from these "60k earning" teachers.

copacetic

Lil Kitten wrote: »

It's unfair that teachers that already contribute to their state (and some private) pensions are being forced to pay a set amount roughly €200 extra per month into this "pension levy" when we won't be making a return on that investment (it's stealth tax from those cheating liars in FF). Like myself, many of the younger teachers won't be retiring for up to 40 years yet we are getting deducted against our will. This isn't the 1970s, there are no free state teaching pensions. Get down off your high horses.

It's not at all unfair, your final pension will be much much better than 90% of people in the private sector can afford. Not because you are a teacher, but because it is a defined benefit pension.

Won't be making a return on the investment? You are going to end up with a pension that bears no relation to the money you are putting in to it. Someone in the private sector would have to put 30% of their salary into a defined contribution pension scheme to have a hope of anything like the same return. Of course if they end up retiring in a year like this one, their pension will be next to worthless, unlike yours.

ixoy

Lil Kitten wrote: »

It's unfair that teachers that already contribute to their state (and some private) pensions are being forced to pay a set amount roughly €200 extra per month into this "pension levy" when we won't be making a return on that investment (it's stealth tax from those cheating liars in FF).

Just for the laugh, I'll ask this again:

Would you have preferred a straight-out pay cut instead? Given that no reduction in take home pay is not an option in these dire circumstances.

Catari Jaguar

ixoy wrote: »

Just for the laugh, I'll ask this again:

Would you have preferred a straight-out pay cut instead? Given that no reduction in take home pay is not an option in these dire circumstances.

If I had the 20 - 30% pay cut as already suggested on here, I would be better off on the Dole. I'd be making less than 20k a year.

Catari Jaguar

copacetic wrote: »

Won't be making a return on the investment? You are going to end up with a pension that bears no relation to the money you are putting in to it..... their pension will be next to worthless, unlike yours.

Can you see the future now yea? You can tell me my pension will be secure in 40 years time. Right. Lots of teachers aren't retiring this year because of the uncertainty.. Which means no jobs for newly qualified teachers (that would be on a nice low starting wage). Nice planning there :rolleyes:

copacetic

Lil Kitten wrote: »

Can you see the future now yea? You can tell me my pension will be secure in 40 years time. Right. Lots of teachers aren't retiring this year because of the uncertainty.. Which means no jobs for newly qualified teachers (that would be on a nice low starting wage). Nice planning there :rolleyes:

I actually don't understand a word of that. Are you saying teachers aren't retiring because they think they won't get their pensions?

chosen1

Lil Kitten wrote: »

If I had the 20 - 30% pay cut as already suggested on here, I would be better off on the Dole. I'd be making less than 20k a year.

Sorry if you mentioned it earlier in your posts but how are you making that little in your wages? If your not on full time hours do you not get extra substitution hours to make up your wages?

Catari Jaguar

chosen1 wrote: »

Sorry if you mentioned it earlier in your posts but how are you making that little in your wages? If your not on full time hours do you not get extra substitution hours to make up your wages?

I make about €1900 a month after tax/ deductions. I can't afford it a pay cut! If I was deducted 20 - 30% I'd probably get a medical card and lower taxes etc, I'd be worse to the State economically no?

Catari Jaguar

copacetic wrote: »

I actually don't understand a word of that. Are you saying teachers aren't retiring because they think they won't get their pensions?

That's what I hear... I think it's bullsh*t and unfair and they are making enough as it is up there. There's a teacher I know of that is in their 70s and came out of retirement to hold a temporary position. My friend that works with them (is a language support teacher) won't have a job next year due to job cuts (in learning support/language support). It's so unfair.

All I can gather from this thread is that there isn't enough money to support working teacher never mind funding teachers pensions. How can you retire if there is no money?

trout

Lil Kitten wrote: »

That's what I hear... I think it's bullsh*t and unfair and they are making enough as it is up there. There's a teacher I know of that is in their 70s and came out of retirement to hold a temporary position. My friend that works with them (is a language support teacher) and won't have a job next year due to job cuts. It's so unfair.

Are you saying that teachers nearing retirement fear for their pensions ?

What scheme are they on ? Are these defined benefit, state backed, supposedly risk-free pensions ?

Catari Jaguar

trout wrote: »

Are you saying that teachers nearing retirement fear for their pensions ?

What scheme are they on ? Are these defined benefit, state backed, supposedly risk-free pensions ?

All I know about pensions is that I already pay a grouped pension, spouse and child pension and now a pension levy. It's a big chunk of my wages gone.. I was also informed that I can't retire early as I won't have access to my pension so need to buy back years and have an AVC (which I can't afford to pay into anymore..) I can't speak for anyone. It's all a mystery to me and it's light years away but seems to be the bane of my existence and a thorn in everyone's side.

cobweb

trout wrote: »

Are you saying that teachers nearing retirement fear for their pensions ?

What scheme are they on ? Are these defined benefit, state backed, supposedly risk-free pensions ?

not every teacher is on a defined benefit state backed pension in fact the majority arent as far as I remember, the numbers i heard last year were about 1000 primary teachers had opted for defined index linked pensions. there was a television program on it in relation to cornmarket versus state defined benefit pensions and the number i think was around 1000.

copacetic

Lil Kitten wrote: »

That's what I hear... I think it's bullsh*t and unfair and they are making enough as it is up there. There's a teacher I know of that is in their 70s and came out of retirement to hold a temporary position. My friend that works with them (is a language support teacher) and won't have a job next year due to job cuts. It's so unfair.

They are making a big mistake if so. Is the early retirement offer for teachers also? If so I'd imagine many with more sense will go.

Personally I think a lot of teachers do a great job, some of them changed my life. Others were a disgrace, were known to be a disgrace and nothing was ever done about them. That is really my only issue with teachers as far as performance goes. From friends I know who are teachers I believe this is an issue for them as well but they claim the younger teachers can't afford to rock the boat in the unions on the issue.

On the pay issue, we have less coming in than we do going out. It can't be made up in increasing taxes any more. All public sector workers will have to take a lot more pain before we are out of this. Teachers deserve no better (and no worse) than any other public sector worker.

On the strike issue, teachers are perfectly entitled to strike. Personally I think it would be incredibly stupid to do so. They are already on really shaky ground with the public after this weeks sillyness at their various conferences.

Again, I don't think they will. Especially since the ASTI don't trust the other teachers unions to actually follow through (or so I hear?). Anywho, I dunno what I was thinking getting involved in an AH thread.

chosen1

copacetic wrote: »

They are making a big mistake if so. Is the early retirement offer for teachers also? If so I'd imagine many with more sense will go.

Personally I think a lot of teachers do a great job, some of them changed my life. Others were a disgrace, were known to be a disgrace and nothing was ever done about them. That is really my only issue with teachers as far as performance goes. From friends I know who are teachers I believe this is an issue for them as well but they claim the younger teachers can't afford to rock the boat in the unions on the issue.

On the pay issue, we have less coming in than we do going out. It can't be made up in increasing taxes any more. All public sector workers will have to take a lot more pain before we are out of this. Teachers deserve no better (and no worse) than any other public sector worker.

On the strike issue, teachers are perfectly entitled to strike. Personally I think it would be incredibly stupid to do so. They are already on really shaky ground with the public after this weeks sillyness at their various conferences.

Again, I don't think they will. Especially since the ASTI don't trust the other teachers unions to actually follow through (or so I hear?). Anywho, I dunno what I was thinking getting involved in an AH thread.

Agree entirely with your post and I'd think you'd find that alot of other teachers would also especially younger ones.

My main gripe with the unions is they constantly come out with this speel about teachers working hard for their money but at the same time they block all attempts by the department to come up with systems to remove bad teachers. Random, unannounced inspections is the only way you'll weed them out.

Catari Jaguar

chosen1 wrote: »

My main gripe with the unions is they constantly come out with this speel about teachers working hard for their money but at the same time they block all attempts by the department to come up with systems to remove bad teachers. Random, unannounced inspections is the only way you'll weed them out.

My inspector has made my life hell the past two years and I am a good teacher and I care about my job and my children. Inspectors can be bitchy, unfair, out of touch and on a power trip. Whole school evaluations are a tool of the devil.

ixoy

Lil Kitten wrote: »

If I had the 20 - 30% pay cut as already suggested on here, I would be better off on the Dole. I'd be making less than 20k a year.

I made that instead of the 7% pension levy, if you have a 7% pay cut would you be happier? It would remove this notion (excuse?) that the levy is an "unfair tax", although I'm sure other cuts would still result in the government vandaling our schools!

Catari Jaguar

ixoy wrote: »

I made that instead of the 7% pension levy, if you have a 7% pay cut would you be happier? It would remove this notion (excuse?) that the levy is an "unfair tax", although I'm sure other cuts would still result in the government vandaling our schools!

I think people that can afford to take a hit should take a hit. But if you earn in the €30K range and are paying your taxes and 2% levy or 4% levy or whatever it is now then you should be left alone.

It's the hard working middle level that are supporting the country and taking the flack. There are higher earners to go after. If everyone in the public service is taking a 7% cut fair enough, but that's not the case is it??

Would my 7% be spent wisely and fairly? I doubt it.

gurramok

Lil Kitten wrote: »

I think people that can afford to take a hit should take a hit. But if you earn in the €30K range and are paying your taxes and 2% levy or 4% levy or whatever it is now then you should be left alone.

It's the hard working middle level that are supporting the country and taking the flack. There are higher earners to go after. If everyone in the public service is taking a 7% cut fair enough, but that's not the case is it??

Would my 7% be spent wisely and fairly? I doubt it.

Yes, people on 30k should pay some tax but not the burden off it.

Would you support a higher tax on your 60k colleagues?

Catari Jaguar

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, people on 30k should pay some tax but not the burden off it.

Would you support a higher tax on your 60k colleagues?

Yes I would but again 60k isn't collosal compare to what the govt squanders and backhands and claims in expenses. If it's ytaxed fairly, then grand.

BUT the TDs pay should be cut (and half of them can be disappeared along with the junior ministers), the Taoiseach's and the President's pay halved, the consultants in the hospitals making €100k a year should be cut, anyone that appears on RTE should have a €100,000 cap and that's generous. All tribunal money and golden handshakes should be back where it belongs.

F**k taking a sneaky 90e a fortnight from newly qualified teachers. There are REAL issues.

gurramok

Lil Kitten wrote: »

Yes I would. And the TDs pay should be cut (and half of them can be disappeared along with the junior ministers), the Taoiseach's and the President's pay halved, the consultants in the hospitals making €100k a year should be cut, anyone that appears on RTE should have a €100,000 cap and that's generous. All tribunal money and golden handshakes should be back where it belongs.

On the same hymn sheet there

Lil Kitten wrote: »

F**k taking a sneaky 90e a fortnight from newly qualified teachers. There are REAL issues.

Well, that would depend on what salary+allowances they were getting.

There was a post in politics forum(think in the other teachers thread) which in turn was plagurised from the Edu boards....where some starter teachers were earning 40k in their first year.

Thats a serious amount of money in their first year and they deserve to be hit with higher tax as after all they can afford it.

Catari Jaguar

Gurramok, did you read this? Please do.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59891818&postcount=975

ixoy

Lil Kitten wrote: »

It's the hard working middle level that are supporting the country and taking the flack. There are higher earners to go after. If everyone in the public service is taking a 7% cut fair enough, but that's not the case is it??

Would my 7% be spent wisely and fairly? I doubt it.

That's fair enough and in principle I fully agree with you - the middle-class earners are, as ever, the ones being hit the most. I'd also agree that the levy should be more heavier weighted at the high-earners and we both harbour the knowledge that this isn't the case as it would affect our well-loved TDs. I really hope the public punish them very hard at all elections for the foreseeable future.

Having said all that, cuts must be made in many areas. While I too would love to see our TDs get the pay they deserve (a nice big cut in other words), it's not nearly enough. Would you prefer cuts in numbers or in the wage packet? It's not a question of fairness at this point (much as it should be) but dealing with economic realities (although trying telling that to some of the unions).

gurramok

Lil Kitten wrote: »

Gurramok, did you read this? Please do.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59891818&postcount=975

Yes and the responses. I take it it you are not permo?

It looks to me you are getting screwed over by permo teachers as you have no guaranteed employment unlike them?.

Maybe time to form your own union to counter INTO?

Catari Jaguar

gurramok wrote: »

Yes and the responses. I take it it you are not permo?

It looks to me you are getting screwed over by permo teachers as you have no guaranteed employment unlike them?.

Maybe time to form your own union to counter INTO?

No, luckily I am permanent unlike many of my colleagues/friends that won't have a job in September. I want to speak up for them too, as this thread seems to think that there is 100% job security and that is not the case. But I'm last in, I'd be first out after them. I don't qualify for panel rights as I am still on probation (past 2 years - not enough inspectors :rolleyes: )

Like I said previously, I make €1900 give or take per month after tax/deductions. I'm low on the pay scale as I only have an Ordinary Teaching Degree. I'm not grossly over or under paid. But as I only have myself to look out for and no mortgage or children as of yet, I'm doing fine. I'm pretty sure my pay has been frozen and I don't know how long for. I took the levys and the pension levy. I didn't vote to strike. But I do think the govt is taking the pi$$ and being extremely unfair. I see where the teachers are coming from, and believe me like what I said in my big post I linked, it's ALL those factors. Not just the lining of their pockets like you lot seem to think. Anyways, it seems the INTO reps are the ones making the decisions and doing teh talking for all of us...

I just wish the rest of the country and private sector would join in standing up to FF for once instead of being at each others throats while the Fatcats live the life of Reilly and every one else suffers. I can't make it any clearer really. I'll leave it at that lads.

gurramok

Lil Kitten wrote: »

No, luckily I am permanent unlike many of my colleagues/friends that won't have a job in September. I want to speak up for them too, as this thread seems to think that there is 100% job security and that is not the case. But I'm last in, I'd be first out after them. I don't qualify for panel rights as I am still on probation (past 2 years - not enough inspectors :rolleyes: )

So you are a probationary teacher. If you are pernament, how does that tally with you being first for the dole? (assume position is not been made redundant?)

You are on the lower scale of pay and yet you do not see how your high earning colleagues are denying you a chance to move up the scale. How about some of your higher earning colleagues(the 60k'ers) take a pay cut in order for the likes of you to stay in a job?

Lil Kitten wrote: »

Like I said previously, I make €1900 give or take per month after tax/deductions. I'm low on the pay scale as I only have an Ordinary Teaching Degree. I'm not grossly over or under paid. But as I only have myself to look out for and no mortgage or children as of yet, I'm doing fine. I'm pretty sure my pay has been frozen and I don't know how long for. I took the levys and the pension levy. I didn't vote to strike. But I do think the govt is taking the pi$$ and being extremely unfair. I see where the teachers are coming from, and believe me like what I said in my big post I linked, it's ALL those factors. Not just the lining of their pockets like you lot seem to think. Anyways, it seems the INTO reps are the ones making the decisions and doing teh talking for all of us...

You see, we know the public sector is largely overpaid. Now before you jump (:P), that is largely as you might not be, but an awful lot of them are. Thats where the crux of the problem is regarding money. Money ain't there so your employer(yes them FF screwups) has to cut back on pay.
And expect more paycuts in the next few years as this will be a long recession.(they have 5yr plan)

It looks to me INTO are only sticking up for the higher paid long term teachers and not newbies like you which is disgraceful.

Lil Kitten wrote: »

I just wish the rest of the country and private sector would join in standing up to FF for once instead of being at each others throats while the Fatcats live the life of Reilly and every one else suffers. I can't make it any clearer than that really.

We are angry at them. I've been angry at them for example on the property market on this board for years and in public.. Thing is, we cannot strike over it as we do not have job security and the govt is not our employer.

gurramok

ixoy wrote: »

That's fair enough and in principle I fully agree with you - the middle-class earners are, as ever, the ones being hit the most. I'd also agree that the levy should be more heavier weighted at the high-earners and we both harbour the knowledge that this isn't the case as it would affect our well-loved TDs. I really hope the public punish them very hard at all elections for the foreseeable future.

Whats a 'middle class earner'?

If you are earning 60k, one can well afford the higher tax rise than some on 30k without affecting lifestyle

ixoy

gurramok wrote: »

Whats a 'middle class earner'?

If you are earning 60k, one can well afford the higher tax rise than some on 30k without affecting lifestyle

True - I would have thought that under the budget a household drawing in under 70k was considered "middle class" (hence the higher levy kicking in at 70k).
For an individual I guess it's someone on the average "professional" wage which is around the 40-45k mark up to, I'd hazard a guess, about 60k? The 30-35k industrial average wouldn't be, I believe, the "middle class" wage.