Who do the Teachers think they are fooling?

FlutterinBantam

Bertie and his codswallop of benchmarking for no measurable increase in productivity is largely responsible for this mess.

The Govt. took on permanent spending in the good times,when the economy was fuelled by mainly construction related taxes ,and now we are stuck with a far too costly public service.

It would be like a worker getting a lot of overtime committing his/her full income to long term expense and then wondering what happened when the overtime dried up and the bills kept coming in.


Basic fiscal management,taught in secondary school.

podge3

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Bertie and his codswallop of benchmarking for no measurable increase in productivity is largely responsible for this mess.

Benchmarking has little to do with this "mess"

IIRC, the cost of benchmarking cost about €1.2 billion. The pay increases ranged from 0% upwards. Most PS/CS got 5 or 6%, while the managerial classes got in the region of 12 to 14%.

The pensions levy has removed any increase that was awarded by benchmarking.

The large increase in numbers over the past few years is, IMHO, the main source of the huge wages bill.

K-9

podge3 wrote: »

IIRC, the cost of benchmarking cost about €1.2 billion. The pay increases ranged from 0% upwards. Most PS/CS got 5 or 6%, while the managerial classes got in the region of 12 to 14%.

They get it every single year, No?

podge3 wrote:

The large increase in numbers over the past few years is, IMHO, the main source of the huge wages bill.

That as well, showing it is an attractive sector.

podge3

K-9 wrote: »

They get it every single year, No?

Fair point - but how old is benchmarking, maybe 5 or 6 years? So its cost at most about €10 billion (less tax)? That is small beans compared to our current fiscal problem and its now out of the equation with the pensions levy.

K-9 wrote: »

That as well, showing it is an attractive sector.

I think its more to do with the Government allowing the CS/PS to recruit large numbers of people.

When I was in primary school (about 30 years ago now ) there were 4 teachers in the school. That was the total number of employees (excluding cleaners).

There are now 9 full time permanent employees in the same school with the same number of students.

gurramok

podge3 wrote: »

Fair point - but how old is benchmarking, maybe 5 or 6 years? So its cost at most about €10 billion (less tax)? That is small beans compared to our current fiscal problem and its now out of the equation with the pensions levy.

No wonder the country is going broke! :eek:

podge3

gurramok wrote: »

No wonder the country is going broke! :eek:

Thats less than half of our current deficit for this year alone.

Our annual CS/PS wages and pensions bill is now about €20 billion.

gurramok

podge3 wrote: »

Thats less than half of our current deficit for this year alone.

Our annual CS/PS wages and pensions bill is now about €20 billion.

Benchmark backwards then.

Here's a nice little few charts about how highly paid the public sector is to not just the private sector but the OECD/Eurozone.
http://ronanlyons.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/tackling-the-thorny-issue-of-teachers-pay/

In Ireland, a teacher in the job 15 years, single with no kids, earns more after tax than his or her counterparts do BEFORE they’ve been taxed in most other eurozone members.

podge3

gurramok wrote: »

Here's a nice little few charts about how highly paid the public sector is to not just the private sector but the OECD/Eurozone.
http://ronanlyons.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/tackling-the-thorny-issue-of-teachers-pay/

In Ireland, a teacher in the job 15 years, single with no kids, earns more after tax than his or her counterparts do BEFORE they’ve been taxed in most other eurozone members.

You have hit the nail on the head.

The teachers pay chart clearly shows one of the main reasons for our financial woes i.e. how little tax we all pay.

Their gross salary is not too much out-of-kilter with Belgium, Netherlands, Germany or Spain. The difference arises when you look at the after tax figures.

The sad fact is that we all - Public and private sector alike - need to pay a lot more in direct taxation.

gurramok

podge3 wrote: »

You have hit the nail on the head.

The teachers pay chart clearly shows one of the main reasons for our financial woes i.e. how little tax we all pay.

Their gross salary is not too much out-of-kilter with Belgium, Netherlands, Germany or Spain. The difference arises when you look at the after tax figures.

The sad fact is that we all - Public and private sector alike - need to pay a lot more in direct taxation.

True.

But how do we get that message through to the teachers who would rather strike in Sept about it?

Just look at the reaction of certain teacher posters who reacted with venom to my posting of wage facts earlier in the thread!

podge3

gurramok wrote: »

But how do we get that message through to the teachers who would rather strike in Sept about it?

Just look at the reaction of certain teacher posters who reacted with venom to my posting of wage facts earlier in the thread!

I work in the Public Sector and TBH I am embarrassed by the carry-on of the PS unions.

Their main battle-cry is "we didn't cause this - it was the politicians, builders, bankers etc etc". They are quite correct but we can't escape the situation that we have a €20 billion deficit this year. We need to make it up somehow.

I listened to that Carol O Byrne's call live on the day and it really made me cringe. This is a supposedly educated woman crying because she can't afford her house in Croatia. I really wonder what RTEs agenda was by leaving her on the show. It just adds to the public sector Vs private sector debate.

So, again, we all need to pay more taxes. Its no good crying to the IMF in a few years time that it was Seanie Fitzpatrick and co caused this. He should be a Guest Of The Nation for a few years (unlikely to happen, I know) but we are where we are and we need to get out of it.

FlutterinBantam

podge3 wrote: »

I work in the Public Sector and TBH I am embarrassed by the carry-on of the PS unions.

Their main battle-cry is "we didn't cause this - it was the politicians, builders, bankers etc etc". They are quite correct but we can't escape the situation that we have a €20 billion deficit this year. We need to make it up somehow.

I listened to that Carol O Byrne's call live on the day and it really made me cringe. This is a supposedly educated woman crying because she can't afford her house in Croatia. I really wonder what RTEs agenda was by leaving her on the show. It just adds to the public sector Vs private sector debate.

So, again, we all need to pay more taxes. Its no good crying to the IMF in a few years time that it was Seanie Fitzpatrick and co caused this. He should be a Guest Of The Nation for a few years (unlikely to happen, I know) but we are where we are and we need to get out of it.

Exactly!!

Problem is that a certain coterie of what I refer to as "warhorses" inhabit every big service or company and the sad fact is that they seem to dictate to the union the course to take.

People should always look out for the vested interests here, as quite often the people doing all the agitating have the least to lose in dispute situations.

The teachers have no credibility for special case treatment.

Look at the HSE as well, twice the absenteeism levels compared to comparable services elsewhere.as reported on RTE over the weekend.

The game is up.

podge3

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Problem is that a certain coterie of what I refer to as "warhorses" inhabit every big service or company and the sad fact is that they seem to dictate to the union the course to take.

People should always look out for the vested interests here, as quite often the people doing all the agitating have the least to lose in dispute situations.

Most (all?) strikes are put to a vote so the "ordinary" member has to take the blame too if a strike goes ahead.


Teachers or any other large grouping within the CS/PS have no "special case". We are all in this together and we need to shut up and knuckle down.

While there is no doubt that some business' will use the current climate to renage on pay rises etc, nobody (public or private) deserves special treatment at the moment. We are heading for 500,000 on the dole. Excluding the 150,000 or so serial spongers that have never worked, thats 350,000 people that worked, payed taxes and now have to live on €210 a week. IMHO a strike at this stage is a slap in the face to these people.

Bottom line? we all need to get real.

Sizzler

Sorry didn't have the patience to read the whole thread but in reference to this article where the teacher is left with €94 a week

http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/angry-delegate-tells-minister-shes-left-with-just-836494-per-week-1708454.html

LOB !

Facts are the girl extended herself up to her neck by getting a mortgage for €300K and to compund this she took it out fixed rate. Now how exactly is this the states problem? How is it Batt O'Keefe's problem

Translate this to any other career in Ireland [insert random financial commitment here] and then try and complain to the CEO/MD/Head Honcho of your employer and see what they say? Sorry mister but I went out and bought a brand new BMW last week and now Mr.Lenihan has put another 1% on my wages and also you want me to take a 10% pay cut, I demand satisfaction! Of course Mr.Sizzler, how dare we insult you by asking to take a pay cut, since you have been inconvenienced so much we have decided to give you a pay rise :rolleyes:

I'm sorry this woman has been put in such an unenviable financial situation but at the end of the day nobody made her do it. To expect the govt to be sympatethic to her personal circumstances is pure folly and frankly a waste of time. Theres families up and down the country with kids to feed where the only wage earner has probably taken a reduction in hours and pay but you don't seem them running to the government looking for help, they are getting on with it and for that reason I don't believe this lady will get much sympathy.

Dudess

Even modestly priced houses were super expensive during the boom. I don't think it was unreasonable for a teacher to assume she was in a position of enough security to buy one.

ntlbell

Dudess wrote: »

Even modestly priced houses were super expensive during the boom. I don't think it was unreasonable for a teacher to assume she was in a position of enough security to buy one.

If they had a big enough deposit, stress tested against interest hikes, drop in earnings/ if a couple one losing their job etc then no it's not unreasonable.

If you didn't use much of a deposit and a a small % of your wage is gone sends you to the breadline then security or no security it was a shockingly bad financial decision.

I also don't think it's unreasonable for these people to rent until they can comfortably afford them home/with a large deposit

buying a 300k house in 2007 on 40k wages is pretty much financial suicide regardless of what profession you're in

Owning a home is not a right.

midlandsmissus

It's very hard for the public to get by the fact, that the people with jobs with the best perks in the land are the ones which are always, and I mean always complaining.

Eight years ago when I was in fifth year, the teachers were on strike. They thought VERY little of the students then. Our whole leaving certificate syllabus was messed up, no-one could concentrate with the countless interruptions. It was worse for the sixth year students at the time, they had terrible problems. The students in our school organsised a protest, along with alot of other schools, and guess what? The teachers COULDNT HAVE CARED LESS what the students felt.

Compound this with the fact that out of all the teachers I had in school, I would say two were actually capable of teaching.

Secondary school teacher's teaching style can be so bad it is shocking. The majority of people who do arts degrees then find they cant do anything with their degree except teach. This is the fact of the matter. I know alot of people who did this, said they didnt want to teach, couldnt do anything else with their degree and decided to teach. They are not like primary school teachers who go into their degree wanting to teach. (Not all secondary school teachers, but ALOT)

I had simply atrocious teachers in (meant to be a good) school, I remember one woman who would chat about her home life for 30 mins, and teach for 10 mins. I had another male teacher who managed a county football team, and would talk about football for most of the lesson, if he wasn't cancelling it to bring football teams away.

This is why I have no sympathy for teachers, and why I would say alot of people do not.

There needs to be far more rigorous examinations of secondary school teachers. Correct me if im wrong but I dont remember anyone coming in even to check the terrible substitute teachers we had. Does secondary school teacher's teaching style ever get checked?

And for substitute teachers to be now on roughly 42.00 per hour is simply RIDICULOUS!!!!! I know this includes holiday pay, but it is still pathetic.

Sizzler

Dudess wrote: »

Even modestly priced houses were super expensive during the boom. I don't think it was unreasonable for a teacher to assume she was in a position of enough security to buy one.

Assuming the house was 330k (ie she had 10% deposit) then she took a 300k mortgage which is 7.5 times her salary. I can understand how she got to a stage where she thought she had to buy (as did a lot of people) but the fact remains shes blaming everybody else for this decision now that things have got tough. Bank wasnt blameless in this situation either btw.Shes probably asking to meet with the AIB's CEO as we speak to complain to him for allowing her to take out a mortgage in the first place.

Dudess

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Secondary school teacher's teaching style can be so bad it is shocking. The majority of people who do arts degrees then find they cant do anything with their degree except teach. This is the fact of the matter. I know alot of people who did this, said they didnt want to teach, couldnt do anything else with their degree and decided to teach.

I agree wholeheartedly with this point. It really infuriates me how third level education is put on such a pedestal that school-goers are led to believe they HAVE to have a degree. Doesn't matter what it's in, it's just VITAL it be a third level qualification, otherwise you're in trouble. What balderdash. An arts degree comprising subjects with no specific aim and completed by someone who hasn't a clue what they want to do, is (rare exceptions aside) useless.

At the same time though, a few incompetent teachers are not representative of all of them. And when there are disruptive little sh1ts to contend with, well the blame can't lie with the teachers entirely.

mercuroman

gurramok wrote: »

Benchmark backwards then.

Here's a nice little few charts about how highly paid the public sector is to not just the private sector but the OECD/Eurozone.
http://ronanlyons.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/tackling-the-thorny-issue-of-teachers-pay/

In Ireland, a teacher in the job 15 years, single with no kids, earns more after tax than his or her counterparts do BEFORE they’ve been taxed in most other eurozone members.

I think you'll find that the data in that link is misrepresented. Look at Ernie Ball's comment:
"The OECD study that you’re citing, however, refers mostly to pay per teaching hour and for what should be obvious reasons: if Ireland has a longer school day that could well more than compensate for a shorter school year. On page 453 of the OECD Education at a Glance 2008 report, If you look at the columns labelled ‘Salary per hours of net contact (teaching) time after 15 years of experience’, you’ll find three sets of numbers, for primary, lower secondary and upper secondary education. In Germany, the numbers are 62, 68, 78. In Ireland the numbers are 53, 66, 66. The EU19 averages are 48, 61, 72 and the OECD averages are 46, 58, 68.
So if what we’re measuring is pay per contact hour, Irish teachers make less than German teachers, not more"

ntlbell

Sizzler wrote: »

I can understand how she got to a stage where she thought she had to buy (as did a lot of people)

I can't, teachers are suppose to be highly educated, based on this I'm sure they could have done a bit of math.

not too mention a bit of research.

The dogs in the street's were talking about property prices falling in NOV 06

there's thread on boards with people talking about it in late 05 probably earlier.

This is the biggest financial decision you'll more than likely ever make.

This was her thought process..

House prices only ever go up.

so does my wages.

Happy days.

Genius

Dudess

When did she buy her house though? Could have been prior to those dates you mention.

Plus, public sector has always been seen as the ultimate in security - even the teacher critics are saying that... in fact they're moaning about it.

ntlbell

Dudess wrote: »

When did she buy her house though? Could have been prior to those dates you mention.

Plus, public sector has always been seen as the ultimate in security - even the teacher critics are saying that... in fact they're moaning about it.

2007 apparently.

security != affordability

big difference, as she's currently finding out

ntlbell

"I am left with €94 a week after paying my mortgage, which was taken out two years ago when prices were at their peak, and after paying other bills

Dudess

i just had to thank one of NTLbells post i feel horrible

ntlbell

Dudess wrote: »

i just had to thank one of NTLbells post i feel horrible

Why does everyone feel horrible touching me.

I'm a sweetie pie really.

podge3

ntlbell wrote: »

"I am left with €94 a week after paying my mortgage, which was taken out two years ago when prices were at their peak, and after paying other bills

At a very rough guess she is down by about €75 a week with the recent 2 budgets and the pensions levy.

Thats probably a couple of % on a standard mortgage nowadays. So if the world economy was still booming our rates would probably be higher and she would be in the same boat.

People need to cop on to themselves and accept responsibility for their financial shortsightedness.

gurramok

mercuroman wrote: »

I think you'll find that the data in that link is misrepresented. Look at Ernie Ball's comment:
"The OECD study that you’re citing, however, refers mostly to pay per teaching hour and for what should be obvious reasons: if Ireland has a longer school day that could well more than compensate for a shorter school year. On page 453 of the OECD Education at a Glance 2008 report, If you look at the columns labelled ‘Salary per hours of net contact (teaching) time after 15 years of experience’, you’ll find three sets of numbers, for primary, lower secondary and upper secondary education. In Germany, the numbers are 62, 68, 78. In Ireland the numbers are 53, 66, 66. The EU19 averages are 48, 61, 72 and the OECD averages are 46, 58, 68.
So if what we’re measuring is pay per contact hour, Irish teachers make less than German teachers, not more"

Can you translate there? whats the difference between 'pay per teaching hour' and 'Salary per hours of net contact (teaching) time'? They look the same to me.

Don't forget the extremely generous allowances as well!!

I can see that Irish teachers teach along with only Portugal the shortest school year in the EU and the Protuguese are paid a pittance.

So you are saying they should work longer then as they are paid too much?

SheroN

podge3 wrote: »

At a very rough guess she is down by about €75 a week with the recent 2 budgets and the pensions levy.

Thats probably a couple of % on a standard mortgage nowadays. So if the world economy was still booming our rates would probably be higher and she would be in the same boat.

People need to cop on to themselves and accept responsibility for their financial shortsightedness.

I agree. People are very quick to blame the banks for lending the money, I agree they are responsible for lending too much money to risky people. The people who took out loans knowing they couldn't pay them back also have to accept some responsibilitiy for their actions.

Mal-Adjusted

SheroN wrote: »

I agree. People are very quick to blame the banks for lending the money, I agree they are responsible for lending too much money to risky people. The people who took out loans knowing they couldn't pay them back also have to accept some responsibilitiy for their actions.

+1

K-9

podge3 wrote: »

You have hit the nail on the head.

The teachers pay chart clearly shows one of the main reasons for our financial woes i.e. how little tax we all pay.

Their gross salary is not too much out-of-kilter with Belgium, Netherlands, Germany or Spain. The difference arises when you look at the after tax figures.

The sad fact is that we all - Public and private sector alike - need to pay a lot more in direct taxation.

Problem is, we are addressing this in a time of Recession and when the Property bubble windfall taxes that paid for all of this, is gone. We are a low tax/high spend economy which doubles the problem.

PainIsTemporary

gurramok wrote: »

Don't forget the extremely generous allowances as well!!

What a load of grade 1 bullsh**.
Could you please elaborate on your comprehensive understanding of the allowance structure seeing as you are in the know on such matters.

ntlbell wrote: »

it's impossible to fire full time teachers

Sorry you're wrong there. As far as I'm aware it comes under "Statutory Instrument 146/00".

ntlbell wrote: »

where the good teachers are not there for the money and perks

Paycuts effect everyone, good teachers and bad. All have a right to fight to hold on to their current rate of pay, and have a strong trade union [that is bloody well paid by all acounts] to fight their corner.

Christ I didn't want to get drawn into this debate. Could be here arguing back and forth all day and end up getting nowhere. Too nice a day to be wasted on this.

ntlbell

PainIsTemporary wrote: »

Sorry you're wrong there. As far as I'm aware it comes under "Statutory Instrument 146/00".

Really, have you any figures on how many teachers have been fired directly because they were not meeting whatever targets teachers have to meet?

oh that's right, they don't have any.

gurramok

PainIsTemporary wrote: »

What a load of grade 1 bullsh**.
Could you please elaborate on your comprehensive understanding of the allowance structure seeing as you are in the know on such matters.

Look at Bobbbb's link a few pages back if you followed the debate.

It's quite incredible the allowances they get, almost free money.

PainIsTemporary wrote:

Paycuts effect everyone, good teachers and bad. All have a right to fight to hold on to their current rate of pay, and have a strong trade union [that is bloody well paid by all acounts] to fight their corner..

Yes, we have already established their current rate of pay is at 60k on average. To keep fighting for that in the current economic meltdown at the taxpayers expense is really outrageous.

javaboy

ntlbell wrote: »

Really, have you any figures on how many teachers have been fired directly because they were not meeting whatever targets teachers have to meet?

oh that's right, they don't have any.

Irrelevant. You claimed "it's impossible to fire full time teachers" and you've been shown to be wrong.

ntlbell

javaboy wrote: »

Irrelevant. You claimed "it's impossible to fire full time teachers" and you've been shown to be wrong.

I'll decide what's relevant and irrelevant to my questions.

Thanks for you contribution

noted.

gurramok

javaboy wrote: »

Irrelevant. You claimed "it's impossible to fire full time teachers" and you've been shown to be wrong.

Where's the statistics then?

I know teachers from seco school who were atrocious and reported and they still are teaching, thats from 17 years ago!!

We can all name bad teachers in schools who are still teaching right now(well school time is probably over by now today )

javaboy

gurramok wrote: »

Where's the statistics then?

I don't have any. All I know is that ntlbell was wrong when he said it's impossible to fire a full time teacher.

I know teachers from seco school who were atrocious and reported and they still are teaching, thats from 17 years ago!!

We can all name bad teachers in schools who are still teaching right now(well school time is probably over by now today )

Yep I can name 10 or more from my school alone, 2 of which weren't fit to work any job let alone teaching. But the fact that they weren't fired is a flaw of the system. The mechanism to fire them does exist, it's just not used often enough.

gurramok

Impossible, flawed system, not used often enough etc, they all say the same thing that bad teachers are not removed despite a reported mechanism being there in place and that destroys the faith in the system.

10 is alot for your old school, even i didn't have that many bad teachers:)

Of the top of my head from my seco, about 6 were very bad, rest ranged from adequate to excellent.

allabouteve

From the comments section of the quoted blog:

An anonymous comment from a friend of a friend, who is a teacher:
“Average is skewed by the massive amounts principles are paid…believe me I get nothing near that! My principle is paid top money for actually doing bugger all as our incredible secretary really runs our school. I’d like to see less automatic appointments and more assessments of staff.
I have to spend an average of 8k a year of my own money making up the shortfall, for example I have to pay the heating for my after school activities myself as the school can’t afford it. I also pay the insurance necessary, and rent the buildings for my remedial classes. I don’t get paid for any of that, so my hours worked aren’t taken into account in those figures. Thats before the costs of the extra materials I buy, the lunches I provide, the breakfast club I personally fund…. I’m not the only one in this position, and I doubt that many of the older teachers who joined for the hours and the holidays are among us.
Generally, all told, I average a 10.5 hour day. With just a half hour offical break, which is purely theoretical in the general run of the day. However, I love my job, and couldn’t do anything else.”

Some teachers are heroes.

midlandsmissus

gurramok wrote: »

Impossible, flawed system, not used often enough etc, they all say the same thing that bad teachers are not removed despite a reported mechanism being there in place and that destroys the faith in the system.

10 is alot for your old school, even i didn't have that many bad teachers:)

Of the top of my head from my seco, about 6 were very bad, rest ranged from adequate to excellent.

Can a sec school teacher answer this for me as I'm not sure: Do inspectors ever come to check your teaching capability when you are starting out?

And if not why not? Primary school teachers seemed to go through alot of inspections when I was in primary, and every one of my primary school teachers were excellent. Because they were rigorously checked and given areas for improvement.

The MAJORITY of my secondary school teachers were atrocious. At leaving certificate if you had my maths teacher (county football manager) and someone asked you how were you set, the standard reply would be 'I had ****** sure if I even saw him I was lucky, and then he was talking about football.' The man seriously used to talk about football for the full 40 mins, he was scandalous.

As a matter of fact I also had lecturers in university who were unbelivably bad. One was so bad the whole class signed a protest sheet saying we were learning NOTHING from him. The case was brought to the dept head who held a meeting with the lecturer and decided that his 'teaching methods were suitable'. He never ONCE came in to atually watch him.

How is a student meant to complain? You cant complain as nothing will be done. Wht kind of a system is this?

javaboy

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Can a sec school teacher answer this for me as I'm not sure: Do inspectors ever come to check your teaching capability when you are starting out?

When they're doing the PGDE (H.Dip) they get fairly regular evaluations. I'm not sure if that's kept up afterwards. The thing is that many teachers will not actually have a H.Dip. as it is/was not always necessary for the job.

ukgalwaymcguire

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Well not the Flutther anyway.

We have these well paid,well conditioned, unsackable professionals,rattling sabres at opposite ends of the country,threatening industrial action and the rest, because of the recent Budget.

WTF

I would suggest that a majority of the taxpaying population would be of the opinion that these cossetted people are overpaid and under worked as it is.

They use the education system to rachet up their "claims" and in my opinion, if they go out on strike they should be locked out and that might soften their cough.

People are losing jobs all over the place and these well paid and well heeled professionals are holding the country to ransom.

Take the fcukers on and lets see what their reaction is if they are locked out.

as as someone who was brought up in england educated there, has two children age 11 and 15, moved too ireland 9 months ago,
you my dear are talking out of the side of your arse

my daughters have a education , for free in this country that is better
than a posh private school in the u.k
the teachers are fooking wonderful
i have a 15 year old with dyslexia who now has a future, and a education
why? because they teachers care enough too help, to put a plan into place, in england they couldnt give a toss.
my kids have a brighter future, a future i am bloody proud of
because of irish teachers and i thank every single one of them and there assistants from my heart and whatever they get paid isnt enough for the dedication, caring and professional attitude i have met at every single turn in dealing with my daughters schools.

so inspired by the education system, im embarking on a classroom assistant course, and ya know what, i dont know what i will get paid, but as long as its over 12k a year i dont care, because its not about money its about giving something back.
education is a vocation.. people that WATCH what educators, and also health staff earn, are greedy nosey fat cats and should count there blessings.

praise also.. for the irish people.. as the old cutural and moral values
are intact along with the new ways, and for that i thank you, because the UK is a hell hole with no moral fabric or standards
(im half irish half italian if that bears any comment from anyone)

so i will end my passionate speech the way i started,
OP, as we say in south london, SHUT THE F**K UP

ibarelycare

ukgalwaymcguire wrote: »

...its not about money its about giving something back.
...

But it IS about money! Read the other 1042 posts!

Disease Ridden

ukgalwaymcguire wrote: »

as as someone who was brought up in england educated there, has two children age 11 and 15, moved too ireland 9 months ago,
you my dear are talking out of the side of your arse

my daughters have a education , for free in this country that is better
than a posh private school in the u.k
the teachers are fooking wonderful
i have a 15 year old with dyslexia who now has a future, and a education
why? because they teachers care enough too help, to put a plan into place, in england they couldnt give a toss.
my kids have a brighter future, a future i am bloody proud of
because of irish teachers and i thank every single one of them and there assistants from my heart and whatever they get paid isnt enough for the dedication, caring and professional attitude i have met at every single turn in dealing with my daughters schools.

so inspired by the education system, im embarking on a classroom assistant course, and ya know what, i dont know what i will get paid, but as long as its over 12k a year i dont care, because its not about money its about giving something back.
education is a vocation.. people that WATCH what educators, and also health staff earn, are greedy nosey fat cats and should count there blessings.

praise also.. for the irish people.. as the old cutural and moral values
are intact along with the new ways, and for that i thank you, because the UK is a hell hole with no moral fabric or standards
(im half irish half italian if that bears any comment from anyone)

so i will end my passionate speech the way i started,
OP, as we say in south london, SHUT THE F**K UP

Thats all well and good but the teachers are in a very, very good positon in comparison to most of the rest of the countries' workers.

Also, if the money isnt there then there needs to be sacrifices made, whether they seem fair or not.

Badboy1977

[quote=

FlutterinBantam

;59836917]Well not the

Flutther

anyway.

We have these well paid,well conditioned,

unsackable

professionals,rattling sabres at opposite ends of the country,threatening industrial action and the rest, because of the recent Budget.

WTF

I would suggest that a majority of the taxpaying population would be of the opinion that these cossetted people are overpaid and under worked as it is.

They use the education system to

rachet

up their "claims" and in my opinion, if they go out on strike they should be locked out and that might soften their cough.

People are losing jobs all over the place and these well paid and well heeled professionals are holding the country to ransom.

Take the

fcukers

on and lets see what their reaction is if they are locked out.[/quote]

This is really pure and utter drivel. Your English teacher should be strung up for allowing you out in the world with such a paucity of expression and a complete dearth of ideas. This is just cliche ville.
Lets just tackle a few of your errors.

Im

a teacher and have lost my job in the 1990s-due to falling numbers. I know two colleagues who were sacked for incompetence. A thousand teachers will lose their jobs this year.Lastly-there are no claims on the table. There is no threat of strike action at the moment. You really are ignorant of the facts. Your resort to foul language sums it up-

numb skull

!

yurmothrintites

javaboy wrote: »

When they're doing the PGDE (H.Dip) they get fairly regular evaluations. I'm not sure if that's kept up afterwards. The thing is that many teachers will not actually have a H.Dip. as it is/was not always necessary for the job.

Yes, in the form of a W.S.E. (Whole school evaluation). Bastarding yolks where all aspects of the school life are evaluated including management and teaching of individual teachers etc..

It is slightly irrelevant though as after a general evaluation is given, it doesn't really have an affect on the school, just put up on the internet.

The system of the Hdip is now going to change, I hear with the secondary school teacher's hdip course being altered to a 3 or 4 year course in the near future. As a soon to be qualified teacher myself, I agree with alot of what is said on the board and everyone has to take a hit in the recession but many teachers don't go into the job for the money, I know I didn't. However there are many teachers who did and who are incompetant in the classroon and there needs to be a system in which this can be tackled over a teacher's career.

TheTubes

ukgalwaymcguire wrote: »

OP, as we say in south london, SHUT THE F**K UP

I didn't notice we could change font color.
thanks.

ukgalwaymcguire

i understand teachers are in a better postion than some, i had a small business which went bust a month ago so i hear that
but, this ressession like everything will pass, ( soon hopefully) and meantime we have kids that need educating, or else where will the future
lie for them.
irish education is and has been for a long while exceptionally good, back in the 50s/60s, out of my family (my father eldest of 16) only 2 of my fathers siblings stayed here, they had children,(4 in total) as did the rest, out of all of us kids from that generation, the most sucessful, best educated, and indeed wealth through profession( rather than luck or being dodgy) was thoose 4 that stayed here,
one runs a oil company in australia now, the other a cheif exec of a marketing company and the other two doctors one of whom was cheif to the health exec a few years back..
why thoose that stayed have this success compared too us McGuires that went the the u.k, there not exceptionally more intelligent than the rest of us,
its down too the education here, and the fabric of society ireland and its people are.
so we need teachers and there support and admin staff we really do, but i do except, that people including myself are finding it hard.

ukgalwaymcguire

TheTubes wrote: »

I didn't notice we could change font color.
thanks.

red for angry and capitals for shouting lol..

FlutterinBantam

What exactly are you trying to say poster

If it's in support of my claim that in the current conditions,teachers have it good,and all this Sabre rattling is fooling nobody, well just say so.

If not, tell us why you think well paid professional people who have pensions some can only dream about ,feel hard done by, when thousands of people are losing their jobs and forced to go on the dole.

Address those points if you can in normal font .

You really don't impress many here with coloured fonts!!:rolleyes: