Who do the Teachers think they are fooling?

gurramok

skyhighflyer wrote: »

I love how people say these things and have no figures to support them. Not that it makes a difference, I worked in a shop (yes I was that minimum wage guy) and had to deal with little skobes shoplifting, intimidating customers and messing up the place on a daily basis. At least I was able to throw them out or threaten to call the guards if things got out of hand but fcuk me if I'd be stuck in classroom with them and 30 odd other kids to teach as well.

Yeh 30 scumbags in a class, nice labelling of every single kid.

Here ya go on stats, tear this apart.
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2006/09/17/story17337.asp

In general, Irish teachers are paid more than their counterparts in Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Finland, as well as other European countries such as France, Britain and Italy. The figures, contained in the OECD’s annual Education At A Glance fact-book published last week, are adjusted to account for relative purchasing power in each country.

The government was criticised last week when the OECD figures showed that total Irish spending on education was below the international average. However, salaries for Irish teachers are considerably above the OECD average for primary level and ‘‘lower secondary’’ level.

The difference is less dramatic for ‘‘upper secondary’’, although Irish salaries are still above average. There is no distinction between the two secondary levels in Ireland.

Terry

skyhighflyer wrote: »

What in God's name are you talking about - so the kids are off on three months holidays and you expect a teacher to pay for a car, bills, mortgage and possibly their own childcare, etc for those three months while there are no kids to teach in the school - on 20 day's salary? This thread has become beyond moronic and frankly, I'm surprised at the level of hate displayed against teachers in this country.. makes me feel doubly glad that I'm not in the job myself and reinforces my opinion that they're worth every last cent they get.

Ahh, it's just another in a long line of fight those with authority threads.

When they are speaking well of the Gardaí and bouncers, then you know there's something wrong.

skyhighflyer

gurramok wrote: »

Yeh 30 scumbags in a class, nice labelling of every single kid.

Good Jesus would you read the fcuking post before responding:

At least I was able to throw them out or threaten to call the guards if things got out of hand but fcuk me if I'd be stuck in classroom with them and 30 odd other kids to teach as well.

See? I clearly differentiated between those who cause hassle and kids who don't, but sure don't let that get in the way of your opinion:rolleyes:

Sully

I think you will find that they are unhappy over a lot of issues - they may look like they get paid well but they get screwed over in taxs and levys leaving them with **** all money. If you pick up a paper (not a redtop) and read the articles you will see what they are complaining about. The whole country is a mess and while the FF folk will blame everyone but themselves - the reality is this country is not only in recession but has a ****ed up public service BADLY in need of reform. A mess which they all took part in but was created and ignored by the government (FF).

The average joe so is still being screwed over. People dont mind taking a hit for the economy, to help the useless shower, but dont like being robbed blind for the economy. Teachers still have to survive on relatively nice wage packets massively hit by pensions and taxes creating a new wage packet worth **** all. **** all that means its very tough to live off and while it might have been done in the '80s our cost base here is a LOT bigger meaning people simply can not afford to live of a typical '80s wage packet. Ignore the typical FF/Green propeganda bull**** that "Everyone is the cause, we are innocent". Teachers might look like they are earning well but take home pay is not "savage" by anymeans.

(This also applies to Guardai who have chosen to retire early before the budget for fear of being screwed even more by this crowd in office)

skyhighflyer

gurramok wrote: »

Here ya go on stats, tear this apart.
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2006/09/17/story17337.asp

A table compiled by the researchers shows Ireland in eighth place out of 31 countries for lower secondary teachers’ salaries

See? I can copy and paste selective portions of a news article too!:pac:

So that's highest in the Eurozone yeah? You might say it just about puts them in the top 25%, but I think you'll find that if you consult the figures on what out government Ministers are paid they'll be a hell of a lot higher than that.

gurramok

skyhighflyer wrote: »

Good Jesus would you read the fcuking post before responding:

See? I clearly differentiated between those who cause hassle and kids who don't, but sure don't let that get in the way of your opinion:rolleyes:

Sure, it was misread, it don't affect one iota of what you are trying to put across as you're not supporting your argument either by comparing scum in shops to a scummy kid in a classroom.

May i suggest by your logic, you did not deserve every cent by working in that shop as after all a teacher's job is more important than your previous job.

So that's highest in the Eurozone yeah? You might say it just about puts them in the top 25%, but I think you'll find that if you consult the figures on what out government Ministers are paid they'll be a hell of a lot higher than that

Now we are comparing to the wages of self serving govt ministers, is that how teachers benchmark their salaries?

Top 25% then, clearly overpaid in comparison to other European countries.

skyhighflyer

gurramok wrote: »

Sure, it was misread, it don't affect one iota of what you are trying to put across as you're not supporting your argument either by comparing scum in shops to a scummy kid in a classroom.

May i suggest by your logic, you did not deserve every cent by working in that shop as after all a teacher's job is more important than your previous job.

Notice you ignored the OECD report on wages.

As for point one, yes I think being a teacher is a hell of a lot more important than my previous job. And the one I'm in now, for that matter.

As for the second point re: the OECD report, look at the post above this one and you'll be pleasantly surprised.

skyhighflyer

gurramok wrote: »

Top 25% then, clearly overpaid in comparison to other European countries.

If you think that, then that's your opinion and that's fine. But I very much doubt that there are many professions in Ireland, whether in the public or private sector, that don't fall into the top 25 percent of the Eurozone average.

ixoy

Sully wrote: »

I think you will find that they are unhappy over a lot of issues - they may look like they get paid well but they get screwed over in taxs and levys leaving them with **** all money.

Eh the taxes apply to all of us. I've seen more than a few yammer on about how they're being hit by the income levies, health levies, etc. and I'm wondering if they realise that it's not an exclusive public sector thing - that it's all of us.

As to the pension levy, it's annoying sure but it's less than many private sector workers have been hit with (from above) and a lot of it cancelled when the teachers get increments during the year (if the levy is to be a "pay cut" then the increment must be a "pay rise"). So it's kind of hard to really feel a bunch of sympathy for them and that's before you look at how much they'd get a week when you divvy up their salary to account for the holidays.

McCruiskeen

Codofwar wrote: »

If you had your wage cut op for other peoples f**k ups would you complain about it regardless of how easy or hard a job it is.

I think you would!

That's a really good point Codofwar.

Why is it that it's only the teachers who are being victimised? They have it so hard. Crap Pensions. They could lose their job at the drop of a hat. What kind of security do they have in life?

They only have 19 days holidays a year. 40 hour of work a week at least also.

And everyone else has guaranteed jobs and 5 months holidays a year, They also have heavily subsidised pensions of half their salary while you teachers have had your pensions wiped out.

The bleeding cheek of everyone trying to screw you over.

I hope you vehemently defend your rights and bring the schools to a standstill if you have to. You teachers are the weakest sector of society and noone is else is suffering. Good for you.

gurramok

skyhighflyer wrote: »

As for point one, yes I think being a teacher is a hell of a lot more important than my previous job. And the one I'm in now, for that matter.

As for the second point re: the OECD report, look at the post above this one and you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Teacher being important, yes they are. Everyone else is just as important in this economy, we are all cogs and some of us face the threat of violence more than a teacher.
Btw, the unions are striking over pay, not violence in the classroom.

You had posted two posts and i did not initially see your second post when replying

skyhighflyer wrote: »

If you think that, then that's your opinion and that's fine. But I very much doubt that there are many professions in Ireland, whether in the public or private sector, that don't fall into the top 25 percent of the Eurozone average.

Its not my opinion, its a fact as stated in the link. You are now comparing it to within Ireland and we all know alot of us are overpaid by a certain margin and some moreso than others and those some got benchmarking.

Here's another link on facts:
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=429176&in_page_id=2

God help an Irish teacher if they emigrate to the UK, they will get one hell of a shock at the drop in the salary they will obtain.

Offy

Im a single parent, every time teachers take an in-service day (as they need to be educated!!!) it costs me another €50 on top of my childminders bill. I have three kids, thats a lot of in-service days. I failed my leaving cert yet I have a degree, they didnt teach me much when I was there. All my life teachers have being a pain in my ass. They know the conditions of their employment when offered the position and accept it but after they complain about how hard their jobs is and how underpaid they are.
I received a letter from one of my childrens principles last year stating that parents are the primary educators of their children and not teachers, what the hell are they so? Government childminders? Let them get paid childminders pay so! See how they like that.
When teachers go on strike they use parents and children to try and strong-arm the tax payer out of more money, do they expect our support? They dont have mine. If you dont like the job or the conditions then find a different profession.

Ace2007

skyhighflyer wrote: »

What in God's name are you talking about - so the kids are off on three months holidays and you expect a teacher to pay for a car, bills, mortgage and possibly their own childcare, etc for those three months while there are no kids to teach in the school - on 20 day's salary? This thread has become beyond moronic and frankly, I'm surprised at the level of hate displayed against teachers in this country.. makes me feel doubly glad that I'm not in the job myself and reinforces my opinion that they're worth every last cent they get.

Teachers are complaining about their pay and the tax they have to pay - lets looks @ the pro's of their job - they get 3 months off in the summer 2/3 weeks @ christmas, another 2/3 weeks @ easter and they are getting paid for all of these holidays - why don't we pay them for the work that they do - doctors work 50+ hours a week under way more stressful conditions and how many holidays do they get? - gardai put their lives @ risk - as seen last week - do they get the same holidays? no they don't.

I'd love to see how many parents who have children support the teachers - cause you'll find that when teachers strikes - the parents of the kids are affected way more than the kids.

Other people say that they are protesting for more than the tax issues - if this is the case - why didn't they strike and protest 3/4 years ago????

BubbleWrap85

Really sickens my sh!t to hear people ranting on about how well paid teachers are. They're not. They're averagely paid. After providing 25 years teacher on the payscale, they are paid at the maximum rate [basic scale] of €63,000. Not that fantastic for 25 years teaching is it? Teachers didn't cause this crisis. People who took out loans who couldn't pay for them caused the recession, along with idiotic bankers who didn't check credit ratings and forked out thousands of euros on loans for people who could barely rub 2 euros together. Greedy people who put life savings into shares that flopped and now can't earn enough to put 2 litres of milk on the table caused this recession. Families who went on 3 or 4 holidays a year whilst paying for houses worth a third of their mortgage caused this recession. In short, GREED caused the recession, and teachers cannot be accused of being greedy. Can tell ya this, anyone planning on being a teacher for the fantastic holidays or fantastic pay, will soon get a wake up call!! Try it and see!!

Teachers don't work 9 - 3. Any teacher I know puts in damn hard hours outside of school, preparing for the next day, researching on the internet, printing pictures, cutting pictures, laminating. I went to Harvey Norman to print 29 pictures for the kids for art. I bought Easter Eggs FROM MY OWN MONEY as a reward at school. We correct copies. We look for better ideas and ways of teaching something. I am sick to death of people moaning. We damn well deserve our time off. If it wasn't for that, we may have cracked up by now! Teachers were under the umbrella of ICTU [regards the industrial action]. The most vulnerable children are losing extra NECESSARY help. As posted already, in 10/15 years time, we'll be the ones blamed [yet again] for letting those with learning difficulties etc drift to the side and out of society. A country needs education to survive. Perhaps if those idiots in government and elsewhere had been better educated we may not be in this mess.

Special message to those pricks who turn their nose down at teachers: do the job yourself if it's so bloody easy & cushy. Let's see how far ya get!!

BubbleWrap85

Just a little food for thought:

Are you sick of high paid teachers? Teachers’ hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or 10 months a year! It’s time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - baby sit!

We can get that for less than minimum wage.

That’s right. Let’s give them €3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be €19.50 a day (8:45 to 4:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan — that equals 6 1/2 hours). Each parent should pay €19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit
their children.

Now how many do they teach in day…maybe 30? So that’s €19.50 x 30 = €585.00 a day. However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations. LET’S SEE…. That’s €585 X 180= €105,300 per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

What about those special education teachers and the ones with Master’s degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage (€7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to €8.00 an hour. That would be €8 X 6 1/2 hours X
30 children X 180 days = €280,800 per year. Wait a minute — there’s something wrong here! There sure is!

The average teacher’s salary (nation wide) is €50,000. €50,000/180 days = €277.77/per day/30 students=€9.25/6.5 hours = €1.42 per hour per student–a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your
kids!)

WHAT A DEAL!!!!

Ace2007

BubbleWrap85 wrote: »

Really sickens my sh!t to hear people ranting on about how well paid teachers are. They're not. They're averagely paid. After providing 25 years teacher on the payscale, they are paid at the maximum rate [basic scale] of €63,000. Not that fantastic for 25 years teaching is it? Teachers didn't cause this crisis. People who took out loans who couldn't pay for them caused the recession, along with idiotic bankers who didn't check credit ratings and forked out thousands of euros on loans for people who could barely rub 2 euros together. Greedy people who put life savings into shares that flopped and now can't earn enough to put 2 litres of milk on the table caused this recession. Families who went on 3 or 4 holidays a year whilst paying for houses worth a third of their mortgage caused this recession. In short, GREED caused the recession, and teachers cannot be accused of being greedy. Can tell ya this, anyone planning on being a teacher for the fantastic holidays or fantastic pay, will soon get a wake up call!! Try it and see!!

I will more than happily take a job offering a few K below average salary if i was getting 4+ months holidays - just tell me where to sign up.

as for the greed bit - you'll find that i totally agree with it and have in the past posted about it - but here's the thing - we don't have the money now - it doesn't matter whose fault it was - we can't change the past but we can alter the future - If you think we're hit the bottom - then you have no idea whats coming - the worse is yet to come - and unless people start takin cuts now there's going to be alot of people wiht little or nothing in a year or 2's time.

BubbleWrap85

Ace2007 wrote: »

I will more than happily take a job offering a few K below average salary if i was getting 4+ months holidays - just tell me where to sign up.

as for the greed bit - you'll find that i totally agree with it and have in the past posted about it - but here's the thing - we don't have the money now - it doesn't matter whose fault it was - we can't change the past but we can alter the future - If you think we're hit the bottom - then you have no idea whats coming - the worse is yet to come - and unless people start takin cuts now there's going to be alot of people wiht little or nothing in a year or 2's time.

Well aware there's no money there. For me, I'm quite lucky. I have rent to pay and a carloan to pay off but that's it. No dependent husband or children. No mortgage to pay for 2 on one wage. I hate the fact all teachers are tarred with the same brush. I have no problem taking a paycut. I'm young but I understand that the money simply isn't there. i'd rather take a paycut and keep another person in a job. Unforunately, it's just not up to only me. Teachers are annoyed at the way they've been targeted [through no fault of their own]. And whilst it may not seem like it, I know in my particular school and teacher friends they're not outraged at the pension levy per se [one of the older/near retirement wans is] but at the way the most vulnerable and needy children have been affected, along with the fact that classes with 30 in my school are still classed as "small" [To get another teacher would require 3 or 4 more in each class]. It's SO difficult teaching that amount of children, particularly with varying needs and abilities. I thank the stars when I've 5 or 6 out some days, I can get so much more done and it doesn't feel like crowd control!!

BubbleWrap85

Ace2007 wrote: »

I will more than happily take a job offering a few K below average salary if i was getting 4+ months holidays - just tell me where to sign up.

as for the greed bit - you'll find that i totally agree with it and have in the past posted about it - but here's the thing - we don't have the money now - it doesn't matter whose fault it was - we can't change the past but we can alter the future - If you think we're hit the bottom - then you have no idea whats coming - the worse is yet to come - and unless people start takin cuts now there's going to be alot of people wiht little or nothing in a year or 2's time.

Plus if you're looking to be pointed in the direction of teaching, plenty of post grad courses; 18 months could see you as a qualified teacher! Can assure you, I treasure my holidays, but we need them. Trust me, parents are fit to hit the roof after 8 weeks of their loved ones during summer, try having 30 in one classroom for 6 hours a day!!

kraggy

otwb wrote: »

40 - 65k a year for 723 contact hours per year. (starting salary of second point on salary scale plus 5k allowance for a degree)

A worker on 35 hours a week and four weeks holidays clocks up 1680 hours per year.

You say "contact hours" but why didn't you include the hours teachers spend preparing and correcting? Does that not count?

Ah sure, don't include that time, it might hinder your argument.

Teachers are not looking for the government to not cut their pay. They have accepted that and that has been reiterated by the head of INTO I don't know how many times.

What they ARE "moaning" about is the fact that many kids with severe difficulties are going to lose out big time because of the resource, learning support and remedial teachers's positions being cut.

Would you like it to go back to the bad old days where kids with mild/moderate/severe learning difficulties are kept away from mainstream schools and not given proper education? Because children with learning difficulties need the extra one-on-one help, otherwise the time they do spend in mainstream classes is not only not beneficial, but in some cases can be harmful because the children feel so far behind that they lose confidence and their self-esteem takes a serious hit.

This is a very serious issue.

So stop seeing it as the teachers trying to avoid a pay cut.

jimmycrackcorm

Where were all these special needs and resource teachers when I was a school? How did we have a celtic tiger in the first place without them?

ixoy

Reading a report on RTE news, talking about the inequality between male and female teachers, it did reveal their average wages:

According to the data, the average male teacher earns €64,000 per annum, while the average female earns €56,000

That's a pretty nice salary right there. The discrepancy is something they could campaign over the summer for but crying out that 56k isn't enough for working 9 months of the year? For a wage that would be 75k stretched if you had to work a full year? Right, that's not going to happen.

gurramok

kraggy wrote: »

You say "contact hours" but why didn't you include the hours teachers spend preparing and correcting? Does that not count?

Ah sure, don't include that time, it might hinder your argument.

Teachers are not looking for the government to not cut their pay. They have accepted that and that has been reiterated by the head of INTO I don't know how many times.

What they ARE "moaning" about is the fact that many kids with severe difficulties are going to lose out big time because of the resource, learning support and remedial teachers's positions being cut.

Would you like it to go back to the bad old days where kids with mild/moderate/severe learning difficulties are kept away from mainstream schools and not given proper education? Because children with learning difficulties need the extra one-on-one help, otherwise the time they do spend in mainstream classes is not only not beneficial, but in some cases can be harmful because the children feel so far behind that they lose confidence and their self-esteem takes a serious hit.

This is a very serious issue.

So stop seeing it as the teachers trying to avoid a pay cut.

Wrong. They are striking over pay cuts, have you not read the news?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0416/1224244812100.html

Delegates elected to send back an emergency motion on the pension levy that was deemed too “weak” and “appalling” to merit a vote. The ASTI standing committee last night reworked the motion to include a proposal on industrial action. A vote on it will take place after a private debate today.

Debating the motion yesterday,delegates expressed anger that the ASTI was the only teachers’ union with no threat of action on the table. The emergency motion; stating that “the ASTI deplores the unfair and inequitable imposition of the public service pension levy and commits the ASTI to work towards its removal for all public servants” did not go to a vote because the delegation concluded it had little chance of being passed without a commitment to industrial action.

They are pissed over the pension levy, they are striking for kids facilities but for their own pockets.

BubbleWrap85 wrote: »

Really sickens my sh!t to hear people ranting on about how well paid teachers are. They're not. They're averagely paid. After providing 25 years teacher on the payscale, they are paid at the maximum rate [basic scale] of €63,000. Not that fantastic for 25 years teaching is it?

Wrong again. http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0416/teachers.html

Todays news says the average male teacher earns €64,000 per annum, while the average female earns €56,000.

ntlbell

Terry wrote: »

Ahh, it's just another in a long line of fight those with authority threads.

When they are speaking well of the Gardaí and bouncers, then you know there's something wrong.

it's not about speaking well of them or not it's about pointing out a simple fact which you seem to have a serious problem with understanding.

compensation, get it? it's a very simple basic concept.

bobbyjoe

The bankers and builders must be laughing their asses off they screw up and get bailed out. They caused this and the teachers are only fighting their corner and getting all this vitriol.

gurramok

bobbyjoe wrote: »

The bankers and builders must be laughing their asses off they screw up and get bailed out. They caused this and the teachers are only fighting their corner and getting all this vitriol.

There are two yes'es to this.

One yes is they screwed up for everyone, teachers are not special, none of us are.

The other yes is if one cannot live on 64k a year, they have serious accounting issues.

These wages tally with that teacher on 63kpa who spoke to Lenihan on RTE radio moaning about the budget but it turns out the teacher had overpaid for an investment property in Croatia.

ixoy

Story time:

[Classroom - it's break time and the kids are being fed]
Little Johnny: Miss! Miss! Why do I only have four biscuits today? I used to get five, I want FIVE!
Teacher: Oh little Johnny, the biscuit men don't have as many biscuits as they used to so we can only get four each now.
Little Johnny: But I want FIVE! FIVE!
Teacher: Now now Johnny, we had to give away some of our biscuits because that's just how things are. Unfortunately Bob the Builder needed a few extra biscuits.
Little Johnny: But that's not fair! I want MY BISCUITS NOW!
Teacher: Stop it Johnny.We don't have enough biscuits anymore. Some people are only getting three biscuits and some only get plain digestives now from the Government Biscuit House.
Little Johnny: Why should I have less biscuits?
Teacher: We're all in this biscuit thing together, so you'll have to realise you can only have four. It's accepting these sort of realities that's an important part of growing up Johnny. Stop being bold.
Little Johnny [striking his desk in anger]: Wahhhhh! Wahhhh! Not gonna do my homework now! Wahh wahhh!

A teacher wouldn't accept little Johnny's behaviour, so why should we?

Mal-Adjusted

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

littletiger wrote: »

Because I have a better paid job.

Never said it was easy.

Well paid, to me is an unsackable position,

unfortunatley, to the rest of the world, well paid means well paid...

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

littletiger wrote: »

up to 190 days off per year,

many of which the teacher is required to attend lectures and drawn-out teaching courses for new techniques.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

littletiger wrote: »

working hours 0900-1500,

er...you may want to rethink that...that's how long YOU spent in school.Teachers have to spend massive amounts of "their" time planning their teaching syllabul, planning out classes, drawing up tests, correcting etc...

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

littletiger wrote: »

index linked cast iron pension.

you've concocted an intiresting fairy-tale, but please come back to reality...:rolleyes:

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

littletiger wrote: »

And all the sick leave and concessions that go along with that

um...just like...any...professional job?

gurramok

Cry me a river, where are the violins?
http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/angry-delegate-tells-minister-shes-left-with-just-836494-per-week-1708454.html

THIS is the 26-year-old primary teacher who yesterday confronted Education Minister Batt O'Keeffe over how the new levies have left her with just €94 a week.

Anna O'Loughlin, a language support teacher at St Gabriel's National School, Dublin 7, demanded a meeting with the minister before he departed the Irish National Teachers Organisation (INTO) conference.

She said that -- after paying her mortgage and bills -- she was left with €94 a week after paying the income, health and pension levies.

Ms O'Loughlin was one of about 40 delegates who walked out of the conference in protest at Government cuts, when the minister rose to speak.

Mr O'Keeffe spoke to her privately for about 15 minutes, when she told him that her €300,000 fixed rate mortgage on her three-bedroomed terraced home was costing her €1,650 a month.

She said she was paid about €40,000 a year and even with additional income of €400 a month rent from a tenant, after all her outgoings, such as utility bills and insurance were paid, she was left with €94 a week.

Ms O'Loughlin said the recent embargo had denied her an opportunity to take up a promotional post, which would have been worth €4,000.

"I am left with €94 a week after paying my mortgage, which was taken out two years ago when prices were at their peak, and after paying other bills."

Its all coming out now.

This muppet at 26yrs of age on a good wage of €40kpa overpaid for her €300k house and wants us the taxpayer to give her money to pay for her mortgage.

Where is the responsibility of that decision, did she not do her homework first?

BubbleWrap85

Perhaps salary should reflect the importance of your job; so for the most part, that's why you see rich doctors. However, keeping in mind that a visit to the GP costs €50 [at least] whilst they're just sitting down, often telling you something you already know???!

Average wage of 56k? Yeah, I'll get there when I'm about 36. Teachers did not reap the rewards of the Celtic Tiger. I don't know if any of those here complaning[ [and giving whore thanks to others for their stupid comments] actually have kids. Why not take your kids out and home school them if the job the teacher does isn't actually worth it? When parent teacher time comes around, it's obvious where the f**ked up children get their ways - their f**ked up, arrogant, ignorant parents! [Most of them single parents, or sleeping with their younger brother's friend].

In fact, to all the teachers out there: why don't we just give up our jobs and go on the dole instead? We can get a medical card then and not need to pay for doctors fees, we'll get sympathy from people, and we'll pretend to look for work whilst secretly enjoying the fact we're getting paid €200+ [with medical card] for sitting on our arses watching Dr. Phil? Ah yes, that seems like the good life to me.

Fortunately, I worked hard for a degree that I knew would be worthwhile. It's really heart wrenching [not!] that people are envious of the secure job that I have now when times are bleak. That's all it is, JEALOUSY. Nothing was said when the rest of the country were riding on the pig's back!!

Although I hardly doubt the 2000 upcoming graduates from teacher training colleges will see teaching as such a secure job at this time. Everyone needs an education. There are some professions which can't be done without and teaching is one of them. I think all of us can do without seeing yet another house pop up on the last remaining piece of grass across the road from me...

BubbleWrap85

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Where were all these special needs and resource teachers when I was a school? How did we have a celtic tiger in the first place without them?

Well I don't think when you were at school special needs and such were as plentiful. It is obvious now that there are many more children with learning difficulties, physical difficulties, emotional difficulties. All of these impede in the children's learning at school and it's the duty of the teacher and school to help each child reach their full potential; not just leave behind the ones who find it difficult to learn letter sounds, how to add 1+4, how to kick a ball properly. Believe me, if we just worked with the "clever" ones, our job would be a bit easier. Instead we have to differentiate lessons to ensure each child, no matter what their ability, can actively take part. May sound like BS to you, but I take pride in my job. It's dismaying to see us getting such a clattering but at the end of the day, we don't need idiotic pepole evaluating or praising what we do. We KNOW we do a good job. You can take my class for a day if you like and see how you get on!

Sully

To those throwing around "They over spent", "They didnt do their maths right" and "The taxes effect all of us!!"..

The large majority who had a decent wage "over spent". The economy was slipping, but nobody took much notice. Not our government, our opposition, our media, our private and public sector - nobody. The government could have acted sooner, but to be fair most of us didnt think or care. We lived in a country that had lots of money and was expensive. They could meet lifes demands at the time. Nobody expected that they could possibly loose large chunks of their money in a flash, those who did had pensions setup. Everything was rosey. Then the world economy slipped and Ireland was left with its pants down effectively.

Our government had ignored the economy, left all the eggs in one basket (AGAIN!), and relied heavily on one sector. Now that sector was ****ed, the economy was ****ed, Ireland was rightly ****ed. So they had failed to protect us, something they are employed by tax payers to do. Quickly people realised it was time to tighten their belts and battle through. Our government had failed but we hoped they would act quickly. They didnt. The opposition were awake and tried to assist - the government ignored their calls. Instead the left the matter get worse and when acting decided to take lump sums out of peoples wages to plug holes in finances. Even that wasnt enough.

These people, like teachers, had always nice enough wage packets and had lived happily with it without realising the future. Now they are left with large costs and **** all end of day money. The "average" earner is not the "average take home pay". Just because you were either smart enough to keep your money in your bank (in some cases, **** load of good that did!), not overspend or simply were not lucky enough to have the money does not mean everybody should be punished now.

People wanted to take a hit but jesus nobody wanted to be left with nothing. We had companys dropping like flys, pension funds ****ed, a government who failed to act on an EU directive regarding pensions, a government party which has put us in the mess time and time again, banks screwing us, a government who no mandate or mission. Just a show.

The majority who had the money, spent a lot of it. Everybody who had protection, realised it was no good too late. Just because you couldnt, does not give you the right to preach - if you had it, chances are you would do the same. For those who were smart enough to budget, keep money saved, well your still screwed as you admit. Everybody has taken hits. Teachers are a big group so you hear more of it. You dont hear the little voices or private workers because they dont have such a representation. A lot of people are unhappy with how things are being handled, and are very angry. Teachers just happen to be a focus point mainly because they have such meetings and are very large groups. Wages? Ha, thats only a drop in the ocean. Schools in this country have been ignored for a long time, even through the boom. Prefabs costing us thousands to rent when we could have bought them for half the price! Classrooms being over crowded. Special needs assistants being reduced. All effecting the children, the future of this country. The wages teachers point out and people harp on about here is only part of a much much bigger problem within Education in this country.

Enough with the "average pay" crap - at the end of the day, they do NOT get much to take home and have huge costs. Nobody expected this to happen. If you were in the exact same situation you would feel and agree with them. Ignore the FF supporters propeganda ranting on about everyone else being the idiots. Remember who got us into this mess and who isnt getting us out of the mess.

Those who can take the pain should take the pain. Those who cant, shouldnt. Why rob the school children of their future because of our governments failure?

ntlbell

BubbleWrap85 wrote: »

Perhaps salary should reflect the importance of your job; so for the most part, that's why you see rich doctors. However, keeping in mind that a visit to the GP costs €50 [at least] whilst they're just sitting down, often telling you something you already know???!

Average wage of 56k? Yeah, I'll get there when I'm about 36. Teachers did not reap the rewards of the Celtic Tiger. I don't know if any of those here complaning[ [and giving whore thanks to others for their stupid comments] actually have kids. Why not take your kids out and home school them if the job the teacher does isn't actually worth it? When parent teacher time comes around, it's obvious where the f**ked up children get their ways - their f**ked up, arrogant, ignorant parents! [Most of them single parents, or sleeping with their younger brother's friend].


In fact, to all the teachers out there: why don't we just give up our jobs and go on the dole instead? We can get a medical card then and not need to pay for doctors fees, we'll get sympathy from people, and we'll pretend to look for work whilst secretly enjoying the fact we're getting paid €200+ [with medical card] for sitting on our arses watching Dr. Phil? Ah yes, that seems like the good life to me.

Fortunately, I worked hard for a degree that I knew would be worthwhile. It's really heart wrenching [not!] that people are envious of the secure job that I have now when times are bleak. That's all it is, JEALOUSY. Nothing was said when the rest of the country were riding on the pig's back!!

Although I hardly doubt the 2000 upcoming graduates from teacher training colleges will see teaching as such a secure job at this time. Everyone needs an education. There are some professions which can't be done without and teaching is one of them. I think all of us can do without seeing yet another house pop up on the last remaining piece of grass across the road from me...

you like most are missing the point.

This is not about if they're worth what they get paid.

I didn't reap the rewards of the celtic tiger nor do I get 4 months of a year nor do i have a secure job and nor do i have a big pension

(i should of became a teacher right? :rolleyes: )

The point is they're getting well paid, they do get a lot of benefits and WE ALL have to take a hit EVERYONE the problem is not what they get paid

the problem is them using young kids as pawns refusing to teach etc so they can have more money in their pockets.

we get the do a great job we get it can be a thankless job, we get there can be some who have problems with certain troublesome kids WE GET IT.

but it's not the point

BubbleWrap85

Sully wrote: »

Ignore the FF supporters propeganda ranting on about everyone else being the idiots. Remember who got us into this mess and who isnt getting us out of the mess.

I like this!

ntlbell

Sully wrote: »

To those throwing around "They over spent", "They didnt do their maths right" and "The taxes effect all of us!!"..

The large majority who had a decent wage "over spent". The economy was slipping, but nobody took much notice. Not our government, our opposition, our media, our private and public sector - nobody. The government could have acted sooner, but to be fair most of us didnt think or care. We lived in a country that had lots of money and was expensive. They could meet lifes demands at the time. Nobody expected that they could possibly loose large chunks of their money in a flash, those who did had pensions setup. Everything was rosey. Then the world economy slipped and Ireland was left with its pants down effectively.

But most are not holding the country's kids education to ransom?

Your bringing up points that are completely irrelevant

most people who did over spend the majority now don't have

job security

big pensions

4 months off a year fully paid.

the teachers employers are going bankrupt they need to take a cut

just like everyone else.

bobbyjoe

By the way I haven't read that strikes are planned (could be wrong) they are talking about industrial action other stuff that teachers do besides teaching.

Lockstep

It seems people think that teachers spend the holidays living it up.

Most of the ones I know do things like summer schools, grinds or research for most the holidays.


Also, marking and lesson preparation takes up a lot of their free time during the school year.

BubbleWrap85

Why are they being the ones accused of being greedy then when there were almost 50 other trade unions who voted FOR industrial action at the time? We've taken our fair share of cuts. Admittedly, we haven't taken a 100% one and lost our jobs and we are all so thankful for that. Despite what you think, there's nobody who is boasting that we still have our jobs and others don't. We get it. I think YOU'RE missing the point. We've taken hits in the end of year budget where there were THIRTY TWO EDUCATION CUTS, cuts which for the most part went unnoticed to the rest of the country due to the mess the country is in. On top of the pension levy, income levy and what else have ya, they were sick to death of being targeted, of the children being targeted. As stated previously, the children in our education system are the ones that will be running this country in years to come. Without an education, what have they? We can't have it all ways.

ntlbell wrote: »

But most are not holding the country's kids education to ransom?

Your bringing up points that are completely irrelevant

most people who did over spend the majority now don't have

job security

big pensions

4 months off a year fully paid.

the teachers employers are going bankrupt they need to take a cut

just like everyone else.

Perhaps if you'd spent a bit more time in school and availed of learning support [provided of course you were in school during the fantastic Celtic Tiger times, as who needs extra support otherwise eh?] and learned a bit more about spelling and sentence syntax.....

It seems that during the good times, we were all happy; all had money, paid for expensive things, didn't think of tomorrow. I suppose we were blind to the fact it could all end someday.

Now that times are hard, some of those pricks on the dole have nothing better to do than nitpick those who are still secure and have their jobs [and of course of 4 months holidays, or is it 5?].

kickoutthejams wrote: »

It seems people think that teachers spend the holidays living it up.

Most of the ones I know do things like summer schools, grinds or research for most the holidays.


Also, marking and lesson preparation takes up a lot of their free time during the school year.

Oh but that's not true!! I was in Spain for all of last week, lazed about all of this week, will probably dawdle into school on Monday morning and flick through a workbook and find something to do there! Might file my nails while I'm at it! Catch up on the soap magazines from last week! NOT! I've got planning to do for school

Sully

ntlbell wrote: »

you like most are missing the point.

I think your missing the point.

This is not about if they're worth what they get paid.

I didn't reap the rewards of the celtic tiger nor do I get 4 months of a year nor do i have a secure job and nor do i have a big pension

(i should of became a teacher right? :rolleyes: )

The point is they're getting well paid, they do get a lot of benefits and WE ALL have to take a hit EVERYONE the problem is not what they get paid

the problem is them using young kids as pawns refusing to teach etc so they can have more money in their pockets.

we get the do a great job we get it can be a thankless job, we get there can be some who have problems with certain troublesome kids WE GET IT.

but it's not the point

You come across very jealous there. You seem to think that because teachers get 3 months a year off, they should be greatful they get an income and pension. Riiiiiight.

Well paid? Lets be fair about it, its not the easiest job in the world so they deserve to get a decent wage. But hey, thats not the point. The point I am trying to make, as are others, despite the fact the average wage looks very good on paper your ignoring the take home pay as it is today. Just because you were not lucky enough to have a nice wage packet and pension during the good times does not mean you have the right to turn your nose up at those who did and get all snobby. If you had the money, you would have made a nice pension and spent the money without thinking or realising, that most people outside of Teachers groups, that things could turn upside down and not only will your wage be robbed but your pension will be also. Or it could be simply lost.

Sure, most people have taken a hit at different levels. But your safe, you probably dont have such a cost overhead they have. They have taken a big hit, left with very little now and are struggling to pay of debts and survive. Those who always found it a struggle, never got that much cash in the good times, dont see their point as they dont understand.

The whole troublesome kids and "WE GET IT" line smacks of jealousy again. Lets be fair, its a pain in the ass of a job and they do get paid nicely for it. 3 months isnt bad off either. But, it goes back to what they did have all those years ago and there huge costs they cant pay now because of the levys and taxes leaving them with very little to surive on. Other people can survive on it as they dont have such costs.

We are actually forgetting the bigger picture which isnt just the wages but is the effect its having on schools. I dont believe for one second, and its highly offensive to suggest, that teachers are using that as a face to fight about wages. Its all part of the picture, its all part of the argument they have. Dont just take out the bits you can bite into.

Get the point yet? I see your point, but its not really how it is. I hope that maybe one day you will experience it and understand.

ntlbell

BubbleWrap85 wrote: »

Perhaps if you'd spent a bit more time in school and availed of learning support [provided of course you were in school during the fantastic Celtic Tiger times, as who needs extra support otherwise eh?] and learned a bit more about spelling and sentence syntax.....

I didn't go to school during the celtic tiger?

There was no fancy pancy special needs teachers.

When I told her about my dyslexia she thought I needed to go to the toilet more often. :rolleyes:

bobbyjoe

ntlbell wrote: »

I didn't go to school during the celtic tiger?

There was no fancy pancy special needs teachers.

When I told her about my dyslexia she thought I needed to go to the toilet more often. :rolleyes:

And that was wrong, and continues to be wrong. In this day and age stuff like that should be recognised and extra help given.

Sully

ntlbell wrote: »

But most are not holding the country's kids education to ransom?

The government is. Not the teachers, not the world economy. The government is. Fianna Fail, who have been in power for many many years and have seen this type of problem before (well, put us into it).

Your bringing up points that are completely irrelevant

I think your showing a comple lack of understanding for the bigger picture. Stop focusing on one aspect of it and realise that everything in my post about how people spent, how the economy slipped, how it was handled and why teachers are unhappy all follow the same track and are part of that one big picture. You seem to ignore everything else and focus on teachers and wages only because you come across very jealous/angry that teachers had a decent wage packet in the good times and a decent pension which you didnt. You are delighted, it seems, that they have taken a hit.

Sad that you dont see the bigger picture and have such a low opinion of teachers.

most people who did over spend the majority now don't have

job security

big pensions

4 months off a year fully paid.

the teachers employers are going bankrupt they need to take a cut

just like everyone else.

They *had* it all but now the economy is gone, our pants is down. Company getting less money, government wont support them, companys need to take cut backs to save cash. That happens even when we are not in recession. Big pensions now either gone down the swanny (where is the protection the EU directive said should be in? Oh wait, FF never acted on it) or penalised in fees. 4 months off a year - is it not June, July and August? 3 months? Or do they get of May also (I cant remember). Would you prefer they didnt get paid or children be educated ALL year around with no few months holidays?

Teachers employers are the government Read my earlier post about how fantastic a government we have in power. I think you see a glimpse of the picture now and see that schools are being ****ed because of the governments cutbacks. Fantastic!

Just like everyone else... No, not really.

Mal-Adjusted

there seems to be a massive amount of resentment towards teachers here. maybe it's jealousy. yea, teachers are (moderatley) well paid (for christ sake, you'll find no millionaires in the classroom), that's because they have very important and demanding jobs...deal with it.:rolleyes:

maybe it's biffo's propaganda machine hard at work (the only thing the government actually managed to pull off) villifying the public workers and making them handy scapegoats.
"Come on everybody! Grab a torch & pitchfork! it'll take the heat off of us!"

show of hands, who here is either stupid enough or naive enough to think that teachers actually only work 9 months?

Sully

ntlbell wrote: »

I didn't go to school during the celtic tiger?

There was no fancy pancy special needs teachers.

When I told her about my dyslexia she thought I needed to go to the toilet more often. :rolleyes:

Excuse me? Are you hinting that you dont agree with special needs children? Do you think that those who are disadvantaged should be told, effecitvely, to get on with it and not be assisted and given the opportunity to succeed in life?

If thats your attitude, then I think people should disregard your comments in this thread after that appaling statement. It does not show your posts in a very good light if you view that special needs teachers are a waste and those who need assistance should not be given it.

ntlbell

Sully wrote: »

You come across very jealous there. You seem to think that because teachers get 3 months a year off, they should be greatful they get an income and pension. Riiiiiight.

Jealous of having 4 months of and getting paid? um, hell yea?

Sully wrote: »

Well paid? Lets be fair about it, its not the easiest job in the world so they deserve to get a decent wage. But hey, thats not the point.

Correct, it's not the point so why are you bringing it up?

Sully wrote: »

The point I am trying to make, as are others, despite the fact the average wage looks very good on paper your ignoring the take home pay as it is today.

Everyone is taken home less or at least the vast majority are why should teaching be any different?

Sully wrote: »

Just because you were not lucky enough to have a nice wage packet and pension during the good times does not mean you have the right to turn your nose up at those who did and get all snobby. If you had the money, you would have made a nice pension and spent the money without thinking or realising, that most people outside of Teachers groups, that things could turn upside down and not only will your wage be robbed but your pension will be also. Or it could be simply lost.

No one's getting snobby, I earned the right amount of money for my position, I saved I didn't buy an overpriced house and was pretty frugal through the boom years. thanks for you concern, what has it got to do with the point tho?

Sully wrote: »

Sure, most people have taken a hit at different levels. But your safe, you probably dont have such a cost overhead they have. They have taken a big hit, left with very little now and are struggling to pay of debts and survive. Those who always found it a struggle, never got that much cash in the good times, dont see their point as they dont understand.

I'm safe? huh? So they're in this mess because they over spent? really? and now you want us to pay for it? what has any of this got to do with it?
if anything maybe they should of curtailed their spending.

Sully wrote: »

The whole troublesome kids and "WE GET IT" line smacks of jealousy again. Lets be fair, its a pain in the ass of a job and they do get paid nicely for it. 3 months isnt bad off either. But, it goes back to what they did have all those years ago and there huge costs they cant pay now because of the levys and taxes leaving them with very little to surive on. Other people can survive on it as they dont have such costs.

I'm jealous becauuse they have to deal with troublesome kids?

again what has any of this got to do with the issue we're discussing?

you're talking absolute rubbish

Sully wrote: »

We are actually forgetting the bigger picture which isnt just the wages but is the effect its having on schools. I dont believe for one second, and its highly offensive to suggest, that teachers are using that as a face to fight about wages. Its all part of the picture, its all part of the argument they have. Dont just take out the bits you can bite into.

The strike is about money, not the conditions for the kids we have been over this more times they have admitted this also why is up for discussion?

The kids didn't make them over spend and get them into debt?

rubbish rubbish rubbish.

Sully wrote: »

Get the point yet? I see your point, but its not really how it is. I hope that maybe one day you will experience it and understand.

experience what? pay cuts? hard times?

yes teachers are the only group to ever experience it

rubbish rubbish rubbish

gurramok

Sully wrote: »

To those throwing around "They over spent", "They didnt do their maths right" and "The taxes effect all of us!!"..

These people, like teachers, had always nice enough wage packets and had lived happily with it without realising the future. Now they are left with large costs and **** all end of day money. The "average" earner is not the "average take home pay". Just because you were either smart enough to keep your money in your bank (in some cases, **** load of good that did!), not overspend or simply were not lucky enough to have the money does not mean everybody should be punished now.


Enough with the "average pay" crap - at the end of the day, they do NOT get much to take home and have huge costs. Nobody expected this to happen. If you were in the exact same situation you would feel and agree with them. Ignore the FF supporters propeganda ranting on about everyone else being the idiots. Remember who got us into this mess and who isnt getting us out of the mess.

Those who can take the pain should take the pain. Those who cant, shouldnt. Why rob the school children of their future because of our governments failure?

Sully wrote: »

Well paid?

Sure, most people have taken a hit at different levels. But your safe, you probably dont have such a cost overhead they have. They have taken a big hit, left with very little now and are struggling to pay of debts and survive. Those who always found it a struggle, never got that much cash in the good times, dont see their point as they dont understand.
.

Yes, we get the point.

Some teachers made reckless decisions in their lives which put them into debt(those costs you talk about) while swirling on €60kpa and YOU want society to bail them out for their irresponsible habits.

You want a strike over this in Sept and you are using the kids as leverage to get your own way.

ntlbell

bobbyjoe wrote: »

And that was wrong, and continues to be wrong. In this day and age stuff like that should be recognised and extra help given.

fully agree and the teachers have my and I'm sure every other parents support on this

AGAIN.

not the issue.

ntlbell

Sully wrote: »

Excuse me? Are you hinting that you dont agree with special needs children? Do you think that those who are disadvantaged should be told, effecitvely, to get on with it and not be assisted and given the opportunity to succeed in life?

If thats your attitude, then I think people should disregard your comments in this thread after that appaling statement. It does not show your posts in a very good light if you view that special needs teachers are a waste and those who need assistance should not be given it.

You're excused.

I'm not hinting at it at all. As said previously on issues like conditions class sizes etc the teachers have my full support.

What I'm not supporting is my child losing out because teachers want to be able to buy investment properties and have more money for socilising and clothes

see the difference?

it's pretty clear.

ntlbell

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

there seems to be a massive amount of resentment towards teachers here. maybe it's jealousy. yea, teachers are (moderatley) well paid (for christ sake, you'll find no millionaires in the classroom), that's because they have very important and demanding jobs...deal with it.:rolleyes:

maybe it's biffo's propaganda machine hard at work (the only thing the government actually managed to pull off) villifying the public workers and making them handy scapegoats.
"Come on everybody! Grab a torch & pitchfork! it'll take the heat off of us!"

show of hands, who here is either stupid enough or naive enough to think that teachers actually only work 9 months?

A grand a week after a year or two experience for every week worked is pretty damn well paid in my book.

it's not about jealous it's about some form of reality that the teachers need to face up to

yes we're in hard times, yes the goverment made a balls of it but the teachers are not going on strike because of what the goverment did they're going on strike because they have less money

as do we f*cking all..

ntlbell

ntlbell wrote: »

it's pretty clear.

Its pretty clear alright that you have very little to do but complain about teachers. You would swear they caused the fecking end of the world. You dont have a clue what teaching involves, dealing with other people children who you are responsible for. Kids constantly disrupting class parents coming in complaining etc etc. Why did you not become a teacher if you wanted lots of holidays and a secure job.

Its not as if it was a secret. Everyone knows what you can earn, holidays etc. There is no way on earth that they should be accepting the levy's etc. I would back teachers to the last. I can see the amount of money that is being taken from my auld lads pay check already and I tell you anybody would go ape if it was being done to them.

And a grand a week worked before tax is far from big money.

gurramok

kickoutthejams wrote: »

It seems people think that teachers spend the holidays living it up.

Most of the ones I know do things like summer schools, grinds or research for most the holidays.


Also, marking and lesson preparation takes up a lot of their free time during the school year.

You have just scored an own goal for the teachers.

You have proved that they can indeed strike during the summer hols as after all they 'still work' and they are using the kids in Sept as leverage.