Who do the Teachers think they are fooling?

Lockstep

ntlbell wrote: »

your making assumptions.

That everyone would strike.

That everyone wouldn't be fired.

that some would be reinstated and some would not.

assumptions.

*sigh*

I said;

Not really; if you are fired for striking and other workers aren't for doing the same/are reinstated, you will win a claim against your employer for unfair dismissal.

The union workers would more likely strike together.
The managament would then have the option of either;
Firing all the workers who strike (please read the statute I just linked you to)
Some would be reinstated (Unfair dismissal)

Lockstep

ntlbell wrote: »

What good is me being in it when no one else is?

I'll strike, I'll be fired for not doing my job

end of.

As I said, it depends on your trade.
You cannot just join any union, usually there will be one which you are advised to join. (I first applied to join SIPTU but they reccomended I join Mandate as that's where the rest of my colleagues I was with)


You assume no other workers will be in a union.

ntlbell

kickoutthejams wrote: »

*sigh*

I said;

The union workers would more likely strike together.
The managament would then have the option of either;
Firing all the workers who strike (please read the statute I just linked you to)
Some would be reinstated (Unfair dismissal)

But none of us are in a F*cking union christ all mighty.

In fact most company's I've worked for as part of the cotract you sign when you get hired says you can't even be a member one.

I'm not working for penny's :rolleyes:

Lockstep

ntlbell wrote: »

But none of us are in a F*cking union christ all mighty.

In fact most company's I've worked for as part of the cotract you sign when you get hired says you can't even be a member one.

I'm not working for penny's :rolleyes:

Right, so do what I did; join a union and encourage other workers to do so.
It worked.


I call bull**** on your claim that you must sign a contract saying you won't join a union, given that it is protected by the Constitution.

gurramok

kickoutthejams wrote: »

You're right, teachers only ever have to deal with 5 year olds.

We are talking about Primary schools here. Don't remember any teachers been assaulted by toddlers?

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Again, I'm not talking about the ones who can't control a class.

I am saying it is a tough job, given the nature and the influence they will have on children.

Tough to deserve 60k and strike over it at a time of economic collapse?

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Really? Any dictator teachers I had usually ended up with fairly poor results. Best teacher I ever had was as laid back as could be.

Very odd. The best teachers are usually the ones who are strict to stamp out messing which enhances concentration and learning from the pupil.

Lockstep

gurramok wrote: »

We are talking about Primary schools here. Don't remember any teachers been assaulted by toddlers?

Right, because all primary school kids are 5 year olds.

I'm baffled as to why the assault/verbal abuse of teachers keeps being brought up.

gurramok wrote: »

Tough to deserve 60k and strike over it at a time of economic collapse?

Where have I justified teacher's pay?

gurramok wrote: »

Very odd. The best teachers are usually the ones who are strict to stamp out messing which enhances concentration and learning from the pupil.

Not really, the dictatorial ones usually had the hardest time enacting disciplice in my experience. The very fact they needed to be represseive showed their lack of authority.

ntlbell

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Right, so do what I did; join a union and encourage other workers to do so.
It worked.


I call bull**** on your claim that you must sign a contract saying you won't join a union, given that it is protected by the Constitution.

I'll see your bull, and raise you a copy of a contract I signed.

I'll have it for you tomorrow in your PM box.

and hopefully you'll publicly apoligise here.

ibarelycare

I know the same argument is going around in circles about how teachers shouldn't disrupt education by striking and I definitely agree. They should organise protests instead of strikes. Protest marches on a Saturday afternoon would certainly cause disruption and they would be making their views heard. Or else do what the nurses did a few years ago and march on their lunch breaks.

It's the parents who would be punished the most if strikes were to happen on school days; working parents who would have to take leave from work or fork out for babysitters.

copacetic

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I call bull**** on your claim that you must sign a contract saying you won't join a union, given that it is protected by the Constitution.

They can't stop you joining but they are not required to talk to the union.

gurramok

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Right, because all primary school kids are 5 year olds.

I'm baffled as to why the assault/verbal abuse of teachers keeps being brought up.

Doesn;t matter if uts 5yr olds or 9 yrolds, they still cannot put a teacher in hospital.

Its been consistently been brought up here by teacher supporters as a tough 'violent' stressful job when its clearly not expecially at Primary school level

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Where have I justified teacher's pay?

Glad you agree they should not strike over 60k wages then.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Not really, the dictatorial ones usually had the hardest time enacting disciplice in my experience. The very fact they needed to be represseive showed their lack of authority.

Repressive, thats a strong word. Dictator was a slang word for exerting control. Some kids are natural born messers and a good teacher would control these to get attention in class.

ntlbell

copacetic wrote: »

They can't stop you joining but they are not required to talk to the union.

He obviously missed the BOI/HP union "scandal"

Spread

daveharnett wrote: »

How about this for a simple answer to reducing class sizes - have teachers work a full year. Half of the kids go to one session, and half to the other. Would also have the benefit of reducing the seasonality of things which depend on school holidays - travel agants, childcare etc.

Mama is not amused! :cool:

ntlbell

Spread wrote: »

Mama is not amused! :cool:

I can see why.

But I do think people who need a bit more attention or might be kept back etc should have the opportunity to go to school during the summer months to catch up or get some more attention if they choose to.

We're paying for them months I don't see why they shouldn't have to do _some_ work

Spread

ntlbell wrote: »

I can see why.

But I do think people who need a bit more attention or might be kept back etc should have the opportunity to go to school during the summer months to catch up or get some more attention if they choose to.

We're paying for them months I don't see why they shouldn't have to do _some_ work

The Colonel to the rescue once again. Go Kevin Go! http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/teachers-are-paid-too-much-for-working-seven-months-a-year-1711798.html But then again Mama reads the IT

Kat Slater

ntlbell wrote: »

well according to the dept of education the average is 60k the figures speak for themselves.

some teachers would have less some would have more

that's why we call it an average

your dad thought you that i'm sure.

My dad reckons the average around 50000 and you'd normally work 15 years or so to reach that, but it's skewed by principals etc (who are overpaid IMO).

No need to be rude either.

otwb

gurramok wrote: »

Then prove what do teachers do on 3 months holidays then?

I'll help you. Kicko says they do grinds & summer schools and research, what do you say?

The four teachers I know are :-

1) Teaching english to foreign students
2) Travelling accross Austrailia
3) Going to their Greek holiday home
4) Taking summer off to be with their kids

allabouteve

I only know one teacher in Ireland.

She works 15plus hours over her school hours, unpaid, a week, at least.

In addition she spends a great deal of her time during holidays doing extra training (at her own expense), reading and planning lessons.

And, on her own time, at no cost to the child, helping those she feels are falling behind, catch up.

I've never heard her complain about her salary.

Spread

GreeBo wrote: »

For the lazy:

51 year old teacher working for the last 25+ years earning €63k a year from teaching and undisclosed from a second post.
She bought a second property abroad (Croatia?) 4 years ago by remortgaging her house. She also still takes trips to Croatia (despite her breadline living)
Some of her quotes were

"What did I do to deserve this?"
"The minister keeps taking my money"
"I have to pay for everything..doctors fees, dentists fees"
"Im treated as if Im wealthy"
"I am financially insecure for the rest of my life"
"the minister keeps taking more and more of my money"

In summary, she over-extended herself in the blind faith that the good times would keep on coming and they didnt and she got caught out.

On a personal note I find it rather scary that a teacher wouldnt have the wherewithal to figure out that maybe if times are tough and I cant afford to go to the dentist, maybe I should sell the holiday home in Croatia, or perhaps just stop going over there for a bit?

Hands up, how many of you would like this silly and deluded woman teaching your children. There is lot of anger there. I think she needs a longer break :rolleyes:

tallaght01

So, the job they do is substandard, and they are overpaid.

But as soon as they talk about striking, which will be unpaid, it's a disaster for our nation?

Teachers, and our education system, are what our country is built upon. There are shed loads of groups in the Irish economy that are overpaid. Teachers are not one of them.

If they were stockbrokers or bankers bringing in a lot of money to the economy, people would say they're worth it. But how do you measure an education?

Your average teacher doesn't make 60k per year. But, even if they did, they'd be worth it.
Teaching needs to be a well paid job to attract the best.
If I ever have kids, I want them educated by someone who could have been an accountant or a lawyer or an economist. Not by someone who didn't have the points to do anything else. But t attract good minds, we have to make it worth their while.

Altruism doesn't pay the bills.

I know my teachers played a HUGE part in shaping my life. I remember one guy kept at me when I was failing science over and over again. He kept telling me he saw some potential (When I was hitting a 30% average!) and wouldn't let it go. He pushed and pushed, in a hugely positive way, and brought in extra tailored questions for me, and put in stacks of extra work for me. He did the same for several students, and so did quite a few of our teachers. I became quite successfully academically and occupationally because those few teachers helped me. I can't possibly ever put a value on that, but the balance sheet will show no net productivity.

I have a job in a hospital that involves me working with a lot of kids. Their teachers are spotting signs of autism and various other learning disorders before the parents, and are getting them seen. This is making huge changes to kids' lives.

I was examining a kiddy in a clinic a while back. The family were concerned about his poor academic performance. When I was feeling his tummy I asked "does that hurt?". He said "No, I get hit there all the time at school, so I'm used to pain". His parents weren't the brightest so I rang his teacher myself, and said I was concerned about bullying being the cause of his poor school performance.
His teacher was already on to it, and had arranged the bulllies (plural) parents to all come in after school, on the teacher's own time to sort things out.

I saw that kid again only today, and he's happy and doing well in school. His chances for the future have been altered immeasurably by that teacher's intervention. You perform badly in primary school, and your odds of doing well in the future are severely compromised.

Early education is also more important to future health than most things medicine has to offer. Most medical academics would tell you that, if they had a million euro to spend on child health in any way they wanted, spending it on primary school education would probably be the best way to spend it (other than vaccination).

So, I know this debate isn't technically about whether teachers are overpaid, but it's full of begrudgers who seem to think they're doing a crap job. They're people who would take 3 months holidays per year if offered, just as we all would. No two ways about it.
The same people are going on about grinds, when primary school teachers rarely give grinds.
They seem to think teachers should just lay down and take what they're given because they (sometimes) have job security and decent holidays.

The same people are complaining that the teachers should have been complaining about falling standards over the last few years. Well, I don't know much about teaching, but I do know what I experienced. When I was in primary school (I'm 31 now) there was about 38 students in my class. I was educated for several years in prefabs. There were no classroom assistants, and there was no hope of integrating kids with any kind of learning disability into the mainstream. There was one guy in my class who, in hindsight, I'm sure had autism, and he just got nothing from the ed system.

So, to my mind, things seem a lot better now.

I only know one teacher, albeit not that well. But they're maybe the kindest person I know, and they give literacy classes for free to drug addicts on their own time. So, I just find it hard to reconcile that reality, with the vitriolic hyperbole I've read here.

I genuinely think teachers are our most valuable public servants. Our economy was framed, in the good times, on our citizens being well educated, and we'll continue to need kids with a solid education to compete in the future.

I think it's a job that's hard to put a value on.

Maybe those criticising teachers would be able to post what they themselves do for a living, and what they earn, and what they contribute to the country? Just to see where they're coming from.

I also hate people being pussies :P So, purely from that point of view, I say fair balls to them for stickin it to that pillock BIFFO and his cronies.

ntlbell

Kat Slater wrote: »

My dad reckons the average around 50000 and you'd normally work 15 years or so to reach that, but it's skewed by principals etc (who are overpaid IMO).

No need to be rude either.

Well feck the dept of education.

I'll ask the irish times just to ring your da.

he can clear up the confusion

ntlbell

tallaght01 wrote: »

So, the job they do is substandard, and they are overpaid.

who said it was of sub standard? some are some not.

tallaght01 wrote: »

But as soon as they talk about striking, which will be unpaid, it's a disaster for our nation?

It's not a disaster but there's nothing positive to come of for the kids.

tallaght01 wrote: »

Teachers, and our education system, are what our country is built upon. There are shed loads of groups in the Irish economy that are overpaid. Teachers are not one of them.

I don't recall saying they were overpaid I said they were well paid and i think the majority think they're well paid for the amount of time they actually spend working

tallaght01 wrote: »

If they were stockbrokers or bankers bringing in a lot of money to the economy, people would say they're worth it. But how do you measure an education?

What has stockbrokers got to do with it?

tallaght01 wrote: »

Your average teacher doesn't make 60k per year. But, even if they did, they'd be worth it.
Teaching needs to be a well paid job to attract the best.
If I ever have kids, I want them educated by someone who could have been an accountant or a lawyer or an economist. Not by someone who didn't have the points to do anything else. But t attract good minds, we have to make it worth their while.

I agree, they should be well paid and THEY ARE.
plus they get 4 months off
great pensions
very secure jobs
there is lots to attract good people and good minds.

tallaght01 wrote: »

I know my teachers played a HUGE part in shaping my life. I remember one guy kept at me when I was failing science over and over again. He kept telling me he saw some potential (When I was hitting a 30% average!) and wouldn't let it go. He pushed and pushed, in a hugely positive way, and brought in extra tailored questions for me, and put in stacks of extra work for me. He did the same for several students, and so did quite a few of our teachers. I became quite successfully academically and occupationally because those few teachers helped me. I can't possibly ever put a value on that, but the balance sheet will show no net productivity.

Great you had a good teacher, I had one that told me I would become nothing and never do anything with my life. I showed her :rolleyes::rolleyes:

some good some bad.

tallaght01 wrote: »

I have a job in a hospital that involves me working with a lot of kids. Their teachers are spotting signs of autism and various other learning disorders before the parents, and are getting them seen. This is making huge changes to kids' lives.

That's fantastic, but what has it got to do with the topic?

tallaght01 wrote: »

I was examining a kiddy in a clinic a while back. The family were concerned about his poor academic performance. When I was feeling his tummy I asked "does that hurt?". He said "No, I get hit there all the time at school, so I'm used to pain". His parents weren't the brightest so I rang his teacher myself, and said I was concerned about bullying being the cause of his poor school performance.
His teacher was already on to it, and had arranged the bulllies (plural) parents to all come in after school, on the teacher's own time to sort things out.

Teacher doing her job, great. your point?

tallaght01 wrote: »

I saw that kid again only today, and he's happy and doing well in school. His chances for the future have been altered immeasurably by that teacher's intervention. You perform badly in primary school, and your odds of doing well in the future are severely compromised.

great news. what's the point?

tallaght01 wrote: »

Early education is also more important to future health than most things medicine has to offer. Most medical academics would tell you that, if they had a million euro to spend on child health in any way they wanted, spending it on primary school education would probably be the best way to spend it (other than vaccination).

huh?

tallaght01 wrote: »

So, I know this debate isn't technically about whether teachers are overpaid, but it's full of begrudgers who seem to think they're doing a crap job. They're people who would take 3 months holidays per year if offered, just as we all would. No two ways about it.
The same people are going on about grinds, when primary school teachers rarely give grinds.
They seem to think teachers should just lay down and take what they're given because they (sometimes) have job security and decent holidays.

It's not full of begrudgers it's full of people who think teachers need to wake up to current crisis realise they're in a fantastic position and get on with doing what they're paid to do, I don't begrudge teachers of anything i just want them to teach my child? too much to ask?

tallaght01 wrote: »

The same people are complaining that the teachers should have been complaining about falling standards over the last few years. Well, I don't know much about teaching, but I do know what I experienced. When I was in primary school (I'm 31 now) there was about 38 students in my class. I was educated for several years in prefabs. There were no classroom assistants, and there was no hope of integrating kids with any kind of learning disability into the mainstream. There was one guy in my class who, in hindsight, I'm sure had autism, and he just got nothing from the ed system.
So, to my mind, things seem a lot better now.

they are better now because we have had money to push into it, not because teachers were going on strike.

Again I don't really see your point.

tallaght01 wrote: »

I only know one teacher, albeit not that well. But they're maybe the kindest person I know, and they give literacy classes for free to drug addicts on their own time. So, I just find it hard to reconcile that reality, with the vitriolic hyperbole I've read here.

I work for a charity sending old pc's to africa to teach kids in my spare time and when I can go and teach them myself I go. if i had 4 months holidays paid
i'd go a lot more often

so what? what has that got to do with anything? really. I'm getting sick of it. teachers are the only people who offer up any time?

tallaght01 wrote: »

I genuinely think teachers are our most valuable public servants. Our economy was framed, in the good times, on our citizens being well educated, and we'll continue to need kids with a solid education to compete in the future.

I think it's a job that's hard to put a value on.

I think 60k a year is decent value.

tallaght01 wrote: »

Maybe those criticising teachers would be able to post what they themselves do for a living, and what they earn, and what they contribute to the country? Just to see where they're coming from.

I also hate people being pussies :P So, purely from that point of view, I say fair balls to them for stickin it to that pillock BIFFO and his cronies.

I don't see why I should post what I do or what I earn, it's irrelvant.

I pay my taxes, I want my daughter to be thought, teachers are paid to teach her, they're paid a good wage have great holidays security and a pension.

That was a page of absloute nonsense from you, i really expected more.

Spread

tallagh01, you seem to have had an enlightened education by some very esteemed teachers. All of them? Or were there some that qualified for teaching by their ability to cram facts into their heads and then regurgitate the same facts at exam time? Come on now. Whether they are builders, doctors, accountants, librarians or guards, there are some that should not be engaged in their profession. The scale does not go from EXCELLENT to GREAT only, but right down to NOT ACCEPTABLE. But hey! No panic. You won't get the high jump anyway as the union will step in. Training and passing out is a long way from teaching. Everything that teachers say does not have to be believed and indeed can be a long way from the truth. Some of the statements from the conference are like the inane mutterings of befuddled Marxist Dave Spart Private Eye.

LivingDeadGirl

Couldn't be arsed reading the entire thread but I just wanted to say that I'm in Leaving Cert and every teacher I spoke to was completely against the proposed strike, they were far more concerned about the negative effect it would have on their students so close to their orals, practicals and State exams. The majority of my teachers have gone above and beyond for us this year, meeting us before and after school for practice orals, rehearsals etc. No one ever talks about all the correcting and planning that goes into their work either, they plan lessons, create powerpoint presentations, research extra sources, correct our often exceeding 5 page essays/entire maths papers etc, and are always willing to correct extra work we've done, along with extra favours to help us in any way possible. For example, my Irish teacher is currently tracking down a past pupil who's studying Irish in college so they can give me an insight into what it's like! Does anyone take into account all these extra unpaid hours? I think they have a much more difficult/tedious job than people realise.

Spread

allabouteve wrote: »

I only know one teacher in Ireland.

She works 15plus hours over her school hours, unpaid, a week, at least.

In addition she spends a great deal of her time during holidays doing extra training (at her own expense), reading and planning lessons.

And, on her own time, at no cost to the child, helping those she feels are falling behind, catch up.

I've never heard her complain about her salary.

I know a teacher who has five children. Well organised - she is on top of everything (like a professional should be), her job, her homework, her housewife work and is consistantly praised by her peers for her ability. And she does have a social life. But I also know a few dunderheads who just get by. They incessantly whinge about hard work, lots of homework, stresses of the job, holiday prices being high at school breaks etc. Why oh why don't they leave that profession for something easier and less stressful! Like, er, .....?

Lockstep

ntlbell wrote: »

I'll see your bull, and raise you a copy of a contract I signed.

I'll have it for you tomorrow in your PM box.

and hopefully you'll publicly apoligise here.

Sound so, I anticipate it.

If it actually appears and your employer obliged you to sign it, they were breaking the law.


From the Citizens Information website;

Can my employer stop me from joining a trade union?

No, an employee has a constitutional right to join a trade union.

http://www.citizensinformationboard.ie/publications/providers/booklets/entitlements_employmentrights/publications_entitlements_employmentrights18.html

A union could have advised you against signing it. See the use of unions?

Lockstep

copacetic wrote: »

They can't stop you joining but they are not required to talk to the union.

Yes, freedom of disassociation.

However, employers cannot stop you from joining a union.

Lockstep

gurramok wrote: »

Doesn;t matter if uts 5yr olds or 9 yrolds, they still cannot put a teacher in hospital.

So?
I've never mentioned assaults on teachers. That was you.

gurramok wrote: »

Its been consistently been brought up here by teacher supporters as a tough 'violent' stressful job when its clearly not expecially at Primary school level

Being entrusted with our children's future isn;t a tough and stressful job?
Yes they chose to do so but it remains a tough and stressful job.

gurramok wrote: »

Glad you agree they should not strike over 60k wages then.

When they are earnign over 60k?
Yes.
My ma isn't. She earns 30k.

gurramok wrote: »

Repressive, thats a strong word. Dictator was a slang word for exerting control. Some kids are natural born messers and a good teacher would control these to get attention in class.

I'd see a difference between someone who exerts control and someone who is a disciplinarian.
Best teacher I ever had knew how to get us to work, I only ever saw him raise his voice once.
Legend that man was.

ntlbell

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Yes, freedom of disassociation.

However, employers cannot stop you from joining a union.

Let say that's true, what good is it being in one if one can't make use of it?

they ignore the union.

you get fired.

fantastic.

Lockstep

ntlbell wrote: »

Let say that's true, what good is it being in one if one can't make use of it?

they ignore the union.

you get fired.

fantastic.

It is true, did you bother to read the link I sent you?


They are not obliged to recognise the union, however, they will still have a tough time dealing with an employee with a union behind them, do you remember Joanna Delaney and all the stuff that happened between Dunnes and her/Mandate?

Overheal

Tallaght,

I would love to see a teacher get 60k a year, when their pay was based on performance.

Otherwise you're not attracting good teachers, you're attracting the scumleeches that are in it for the pay and the perks (and yes, to mrs. dental plan, there are perks)

ntlbell

kickoutthejams wrote: »

It is true, did you bother to read the link I sent you?


They are not obliged to recognise the union, however, they will still have a tough time dealing with an employee with a union behind them, do you remember Joanna Delaney and all the stuff that happened between Dunnes and her/Mandate?

do you remember what happed all the BOI employees moving to HP?

Have you ever worked in a large American IT company?

a company I worked for used to be based in Holland.

Tried to bring in unions

they up in left within 6 weeks and landed in Ireland.

that's what happens when you try and bring in unions.

American won't stand for it and if you think the government will let large It companies feck off because people want to start causing problems with unions you're on cloud 9 mate.

This is not fecking dunnes you're not dealing with shelf fillers

(no offence to shelf fillers)

Lockstep

ntlbell wrote: »

do you remember what happed all the BOI employees moving to HP?

Have you ever worked in a large American IT company?

a company I worked for used to be based in Holland.

Tried to bring in unions

they up in left within 6 weeks and landed in Ireland.

that's what happens when you try and bring in unions.

That my friend, depends on the company.

ntlbell wrote: »

American won't stand for it and if you think the government will let large It companies feck off because people want to start causing problems with unions you're on cloud 9 mate.

Oh dear.
It seems you don't realise the difference between the executive and judiciary.
The government has no say in the matter, you would be dealing with the courts.
Feel free to look up the Constitution on this one. You honestly think that a Constitutional breach would be acceptable, especially one as flagrant as this?

If you could prove you were fired because of union membership, it'd be a fairly open and shut case.
You could also bring it before the European Court of Human Rights (under Article 11 of the ECHR)

ntlbell wrote: »

This is not fecking dunnes you're not dealing with shelf fillers

(no offence to shelf fillers)

Shame, I'm an ex shelf-filler for Dunnes.

bobbbb

Does anyone here actually know what a teacher does? Or is it all just memories from the eyes of the child they were when they were in school.

gurramok

kickoutthejams wrote: »

When they are earnign over 60k?
Yes.
My ma isn't. She earns 30k.

It sounds like your ma is not getting a good deal considering alot of her colleagues are pulling in 60k+.

You do not agree with a strike on pay(which it is, the unions said this) then why do you have a problem with the criticism of that strike?

byhookorbycrook

inode wrote: »

Patsy Panda and Huggy Bear would have this matter sorted in a matter of hours!

Nope, in today's PC world Huggy would be arrested for appearing in public in his y-fronts.

Lockstep

gurramok wrote: »

It sounds like your ma is not getting a good deal considering alot of her colleagues are pulling in 60k+.

You do not agree with a strike on pay(which it is, the unions said this) then why do you have a problem with the criticism of that strike?

Depends how long the teacher was working there I suppose.


I don't disagree with anyone criticising the strike. I do think any trade should be able to strike provided they deal with the fallout.

byhookorbycrook

IF teachers strike it will be as part of the ICTU.Teachers and parents marched in droves on Saturdays before Christmas and where did it get them??

gurramok

I don't think parents will march with them this time after their stunt of crying over 60k wages and staging the strike in Sept instead of Jun, July & Aug.

bobbbb

gurramok wrote: »

I don't think parents will march with them this time after their stunt of crying over 60k wages and staging the strike in Sept instead of Jun, July & Aug.

Just out of interest. Show us an example of an average teacher on €60k.

You can work it out here.
http://www.into.ie/ROI/WorkingConditions/

Tell us how many years they have to be working in the job, what qualifications they have to have, how many people they are managing etc.

Just for the record, i manage 8 people right now and dont have hundreds of kids in my office to make sure are managed and educated either. And i expect a hell of a lot more than 60k + benefits for what i do.


I doubt there will be a strike, but if there is
all the teachers have to do is send the kids home.

Then the parents will have to march home from work and take some of their holidays to look after them for the duration of the strike.

gurramok

Don't take it up with me over the 60k figure.

Take it up with the Dept of Education who released those figures to INTO.

From the Politics forum, it was speculated that some of that 60k is in allowances so it looks to me a gravy train of allowances have been milked by the teachers before we even get to their generous salaries.

bobbbb

gurramok wrote: »

Don't take it up with me over the 60k figure.

Take it up with the Dept of Education who released those figures to INTO.

From the Politics forum, it was speculated that some of that 60k is in allowances so it looks to me a gravy train of allowances have been milked by the teachers before we even get to their generous salaries.

So you're not willing to work out the figures for us. Thought so. Id say you probably did work it out, but it didnt suit your argument here so you're not telling us what conclusion you arrived at.

Because it just might show that the workings arrive at a fair wage for the length of service, management position and qualifications that it takes to get that wage.

Is it any wonder salaries are that high when you are averaging out a 40+ year career. I dont know too many people university educated people who are in a job 40+ years and not in a management position or less than that. Do you.

Lets make it easier for you.
What would you say a person who manages a company with about 25 other managers under them, who each manage over 30 other people who dont even want to be there, should be earning after about 40 years in the same company?.

Or even assistant managers?

Go on. Give us a ball park figure to what that person should be paid. Its not a hard question.

gurramok

bobbbb wrote: »

So you're not willing to work out the figures for us. Thought so. Id say you probably did work it out, but it didnt suit your argument here so you're not telling us what conclusion you arrived at.

Because it just might show that the workings arrive at a fair wage for the length of service, management position and qualifications that it takes to get that wage.

Is it any wonder salaries are that high when you are averaging out a 40+ year career. I dont know too many people university educated people who are in a job 40+ years and not in a management position or less than that. Do you.

Lets make it easier for you.
What would you say a person who manages a company with about 25 other managers under them, who each manage over 30 other people who dont even want to be there, should be earning after about 40 years in the same company?.

Or even assistant managers?

Go on. Give us a ball park figure to what that person should be paid. Its not a hard question.

That is such a funny post. Yeh, 55,000 teachers are all managers to pull in 60k

Perhaps you do not understand.

The Dept of Education say the average teacher pulls in €60kpa. Thats their gross total income before tax. You see, they compiled the stats, not me.

Contact them on (01) 889 6400 if you are so p1ssed with the figures. Come back when you have vented your anger on them.

drusk

Just a few things I would like to say to ntlbell and gurramok. This will be my last post on this thread, because it's getting a bit ridiculous tbh.

You can't say that most (or even a lot of) teachers get 63k. The pay depends on hours, contract, experience, education - same as any other job. 63k is the top end of the scale. The vast majority of teachers are on much, much less than this.

Don't slate all teachers for the bad experiences you had. That's not fair. I worked in Dunnes for a while, and all of the managers I worked under were pricks. Yes - ALL of them. But I don't go around saying that all retail managers are underworked, overpaid asshol*s. Which is essentially, what you are saying about teachers. Don't hit back and say it's not. It is.

The country is in an economic mess. A strike by the teachers is not going to help that. But at the same time, so what!? The kids get a few days holidays, and the teachers get to stand up for what they feel is unfair. Unless you are a teacher, then get off your high horse, and stop preaching that a teacher's salary is big enough! Don't judge someone unless you've walked a day in their shoes. The world will not collapse over a teachers strike!! The fallout will be pretty minimal when you look at it in perspective.

If they want to strike - LET THEM!! This is supposed to be a free country. They are not happy with the pay cuts, and because this is a free country, they are well within their right to express their dissatisfaction by means of industrial action. Who are you to say they shouldn't be dissatisfied with their pay cuts!!

Unions are a fundamental, constitutional right of all employees in this country. You cannot be fired for joining a union. So that argument is bullsh*t. Teachers are employed by the government. If they weren't part of a union, they'd be lunatics.

This thread is full of begrudgery, judgementalism and jealousy. It's not all black and white - stop dismissing every single post that remotely errs on the side of the teachers and look at the big picture!

Lets say the teachers strike and they get their pay back to the way it was. The government find the money somewhere else, and life goes on. You're still going to bear resentment for teachers, aren't you!? Lets be honest here. You are, aren't you?! So your problem with teachers has absolutely nothing to do with these talks of strike action - it is just a convenient scapegoat that allows you to vent your inherent hatred for teachers based on the bad experiences you have had!

A bit sad imho.

bobbbb

gurramok wrote: »

That is such a funny post. Yeh, 55,000 teachers are all managers to pull in 60k

Perhaps you do not understand.

The Dept of Education say the average teacher pulls in €60kpa. Thats their gross total income before tax. You see, they compiled the stats, not me.

Contact them on (01) 889 6400 if you are so p1ssed with the figures. Come back when you have vented your anger on them.

Still not willing to work it out eh. Thought you wouldnt.

You have really shown yourself up in this thread TBH.

gurramok

Look Drusk. You are basing your assumptions on falsehoods.

My gripes with the profession is that its very hard to sack a bad teacher and it gives good teachers a bad name. I stated this to Kicko as others have brought up how stressful the job is and yet there are more stressful jobs out there with less pay.

Now, on recent events, they do have indeed a right to strike, that i have said. I also stated it was an immoral strike based on the following:

A - they pull in 60kpa on average
B - they chose to strike in Sept instead of their nixer hols in June, July & Aug.
C - they never brought up issues of bad school facilities when they got yr on yr pay rises from benchmarking.
D - country is on verge on bankruptcy, their employer cannot give them more money through less tax considering there is 11% unemployment rate and growing etc

Like i said to bobbb when he went on a rant to me, the Dept of Education says that the average teacher pulls in €60kpa. I am simply quoting what they say and i have faith in a Dept of this state to tell the truth as they complied them and supplied them to INTO who never said they were wrong.

I do not have access to the stats, if i did, i be hacking through the computer systems and i would be posting this post from jail

bobbbb

drusk wrote: »

Just a few things I would like to say to ntlbell and gurramok. This will be my last post on this thread, because it's getting a bit ridiculous tbh.

You can't say that most (or even a lot of) teachers get 63k. The pay depends on hours, contract, experience, education - same as any other job. 63k is the top end of the scale. The vast majority of teachers are on much, much less than this.

Don't slate all teachers for the bad experiences you had. That's not fair. I worked in Dunnes for a while, and all of the managers I worked under were pricks. Yes - ALL of them. But I don't go around saying that all retail managers are underworked, overpaid asshol*s. Which is essentially, what you are saying about teachers. Don't hit back and say it's not. It is.

The country is in an economic mess. A strike by the teachers is not going to help that. But at the same time, so what!? The kids get a few days holidays, and the teachers get to stand up for what they feel is unfair. Unless you are a teacher, then get off your high horse, and stop preaching that a teacher's salary is big enough! Don't judge someone unless you've walked a day in their shoes. The world will not collapse over a teachers strike!! The fallout will be pretty minimal when you look at it in perspective.

If they want to strike - LET THEM!! This is supposed to be a free country. They are not happy with the pay cuts, and because this is a free country, they are well within their right to express their dissatisfaction by means of industrial action. Who are you to say they shouldn't be dissatisfied with their pay cuts!!

Unions are a fundamental, constitutional right of all employees in this country. You cannot be fired for joining a union. So that argument is bullsh*t. Teachers are employed by the government. If they weren't part of a union, they'd be lunatics.

This thread is full of begrudgery, judgementalism and jealousy. It's not all black and white - stop dismissing every single post that remotely errs on the side of the teachers and look at the big picture!

Lets say the teachers strike and they get their pay back to the way it was. The government find the money somewhere else, and life goes on. You're still going to bear resentment for teachers, aren't you!? Lets be honest here. You are, aren't you?! So your problem with teachers has absolutely nothing to do with these talks of strike action - it is just a convenient scapegoat that allows you to vent your inherent hatred for teachers based on the bad experiences you have had!

A bit sad imho.

TBH certain people just seem to resent anybody who might be in a better economic position than them. They also hate people who might have bought a house during their lives too. Nothing you can do to convince them otherwise. Its buried deep within them.

gurramok

bobbbb wrote: »

Still not willing to work it out eh. Thought you wouldnt.

You have really shown yourself up in this thread TBH.

Can you not read or deliberately trolling?

I'll repeat if you are slow to understand. I do not have access to the stats supplied by the Dept of Education who publish them. How hard is that to not to comprehend?

Now, go and ring that number and let us know how you get on.

bobbbb

gurramok wrote: »

Look Drusk. You are basing your assumptions on falsehoods.

My gripes with the profession is that its very hard to sack a bad teacher and it gives good teachers a bad name. I stated this to Kicko as others have brought up how stressful the job is and yet there are more stressful jobs out there with less pay.

Now, on recent events, they do have indeed a right to strike, that i have said. I also stated it was an immoral strike based on the following:

A - they pull in 60kpa on average
B - they chose to strike in Sept instead of their nixer hols in June, July & Aug.
C - they never brought up issues of bad school facilities when they got yr on yr pay rises from benchmarking.
D - country is on verge on bankruptcy, their employer cannot give them more money through less tax considering there is 11% unemployment rate and growing etc

Like i said to bobbb when he went on a rant to me, the Dept of Education says that the average teacher pulls in €60kpa. I am simply quoting what they say and i have faith in a Dept of this state to tell the truth as they complied them and supplied them to INTO who never said they were wrong.

I do not have access to the stats, if i did, i be hacking through the computer systems and i would be posting this post from jail

I left you a link where you can work out exactly what it takes for a teacher to be on €60k. Use it and educate yourself.

Great to see you've stopped going on about the pension. You were really making an idiot of yourself on that one.

bobbbb

gurramok wrote: »

Can you not read or deliberately trolling?

I'll repeat if you are slow to understand. I do not have access to the stats supplied by the Dept of Education who publish them. How hard is that to not to comprehend?

Now, go and ring that number and let us know how you get on.

I already checked outwhat it takes for them to be on that kind of money. A lot. I wouldnt do it for 60k even to honest

Im trying to teach you to find out things for yourself. I even gave you a link to do it. But its like you're that kid in school who goes nah nah nah i cant do it , i dont want to do it. with his fingers in his ears.

Very childish.

gurramok

bobbbb wrote: »

I left you a link where you can work out exactly what it takes for a teacher to be on €60k. Use it and educate yourself.

Maybe i had a bad teacher?

Now, please educate yourself. How hard is to read about 'total income'?

bobbbb wrote:

Great to see you've stopped going on about the pension. You were really making an idiot of yourself on that one.

Thanks for pointing out the superior pension, that will be letter E in the list and oh, the job security is point F

How am i making an idiot out of myself? List why.