New anti-honesty policy?

Diceicle

Maybe this isn't the place to ask this but whats the story with the new addition to the charter?

From now on, slagging off or running down studios, artists or piercers is not permitted under any circumstances.
Doing so will result in an infraction or a ban, this is at the moderators discretion.

The charter has been accordingly updated, please be sure to read this before posting.

What's the reasoning? A forum such as this is somewhere for people to come for advice, opinions and recommendations. I come here for those reasons and to advise people where I consider good and, if appropriate, where I consider bad.
If someone comes to Tattoos & Piercings asking about a certain studio surely its better to steer them away from a dodgy studio or scratcher rather than stay silent?
On a forum people are supposed to express opinions, both good and bad, not just the positive aspects of certain studios, then we'll be no better than shills. If someone goes to a studio and they themselves have a bad experience then they should be free to speak about it here.
It's certainly unlikely to make people want to join of make people want to stick around. This policy is an anti-honesty policy.

Star Lord

No, it's more a focus on the good policy.
There are way too many 'someone told me that someone said that someone they knew went there and it was awful' type stories

It's really not that difficult to say "I think you should go to place X, as that artist is excellent for the type of tattoo that you're looking for.

RxQueen

so just say you went somewhere and someone posted up im going there to get X done, and you found them to be sh!te are you not allowed say that strangness

-lala-

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055429115

There are many posts in this thread telling the OP to avoid a certain "studio", for want of a better word. Is this not allowed under the new charter? Surely it makes sense to steer people who know no better clear of somewhere that generally causes nothing but trouble? People come to this forum looking for advice and I think we should be allowed to give it to them.

Diceicle

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

No, it's more a focus on the good policy.
There are way too many 'someone told me that someone said that someone they knew went there and it was awful' type stories

It's really not that difficult to say "I think you should go to place X, as that artist is excellent for the type of tattoo that you're looking for.

It doesn't seem there are an awful lot of the 'someone told me' type thread on here to me, certainly not enough to warrant a policy on it.

Even if someone does go down the hearsay route, there are enough people on here with the local knowledge to either confirm or rebuke any claims. For example, if I were to post a thread saying 'Snakebite are rubbish and I've had a terrible experience' there would be 20 posts following giving positive experiences. If someone were to post a 'I've heard X studio isn't good' thread it can also be possible to reassure that person of the skill of the artists within.
Whether its the intention or not, this forum mainly gives advice to people where to go to get tattoos, with this policy in place it stifles the ability of posters to do just that.

EDIT: It seems the policy (and part of my original post!) has been amended to remove the 'only positive posts accepted' part of the policy. It's a good start.

jenizzle

to me there is a difference between slagging off a studio (place is crap cos me mate was allowed smoke there), and recommending one place over another (place/piercer x is better for surface piercings) ... I think...

Raze_them_all

So if someone says how great georges arcade is we're just supposed ti say wel i think here is better??

RxQueen

Raze_them_all wrote: »

So if someone says how great georges arcade is we're just supposed ti say wel i think here is better??

ha see thats where i laughed when i read the new charter.... cause nobody here mods included can ever say they didnt slagged off that place!

PinkTulips

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

No, it's more a focus on the good policy.
There are way too many 'someone told me that someone said that someone they knew went there and it was awful' type stories

It's really not that difficult to say "I think you should go to place X, as that artist is excellent for the type of tattoo that you're looking for.

that's fair enough but would it not make more sense to say something like;

'heaesay and slander will not be tolerated. likewise judging a tattooist based on personality is unreasonable and unfair. only comments based on work you have had done on yourself will be accepted... etc, etc'

that way it allows someone who's had the misfortune of having a really ****ty piece done the opportunity to warn others but doesn't allow for the 'my sister's mate's boyfriend's dog said X was dodgy'. it also stops people from slating an artist when there's been a clash of personalities or they've simply caught the artist on a bad mood day

jenizzle

I guess suggesting an alternative is better than saying nothing and letting someone get butchered. also, if we can't say a place is crap, what gives us the right to recommend an alternative?

Will

Chill out lads and ladies

Waiting for the Damo and Hellrazer to come online so we can sort this.

I think what Damo was trying to say is that un-founded claims against studios cannot be tolerated. For example what was pointed out earlier 'my dad's friend's dog's bestest mate's budgie heard that such and such a place is crap or has poor hygiene standards'

Anyone who is a regular to the forum will know that we get a lot of one post wonders, either pimping places or berating them, some of which teeter on the edge of slander and the other's waving a big flag saying 'i work for x studio, we rawk, but ssshh don't tell anyone cos I'm a shill'

No one is gonna get slapped on the wrist for a well balanced criticism of a studio, it's just the ones that go 'such and such a place is a sh¡t hole etc etc'

Clear it up slightly?

Raze_them_all

yup it does, but ye could of said that from the start and saved all this!!

jenizzle

cleared up for me anyway, thankoo!

Star Lord

Diceicle wrote: »

EDIT: It seems the policy (and part of my original post!) has been amended to remove the 'only positive posts accepted' part of the policy. It's a good start.

As far as I can see (and I can see the content of any edits made, along with whatever was changed) nothing from your original post was changed... ?

PinkTulips wrote: »

'heaesay and slander will not be tolerated. likewise judging a tattooist based on personality is unreasonable and unfair. only comments based on work you have had done on yourself will be accepted... etc, etc'

I had already got that in the charter and didn't want to change it, but it was ignored. I'm open to suggestions on how we can try to crack down on false rumours being spread and people slagging somewhere off just for the sake of it.

The main problem is that so much of it is open to interpretation and opinion.

There are solid facts when it comes to some places, like the impossibility of having the places sterile, these are things that cannot be disputed, and as such would really be ok. But when it comes to posts like ones alleging that tattoo artist X gave them an infected tattoo, or other similar topics, then that may or may not be the case, and is almost impossible to prove or disprove, and as such may be damaging to the livelihood of the artist/piercer when such a thing may not be true! I'm sure as fans of tattoos and piercings that you can all agree that this is something that we have to try to avoid. As moderators of this forum, it is very difficult to try to police such a thing without backlash from those we crack down on, and could result in accusations of favouritism and clicqueishness, which is not something that we need nor want.

If anyone has suggestions on how to improve this, then please, by all means suggest them here, or PM them to Hellrazer, Will or myself. Modding is not a job, it is something that we do voluntarily and we do it out of love for tattoos and piercings, and to try to keep the forum running as best as we can, to keep the order, and to try to help others to get the best when they go to get some themselves. As such, we are just the same as you, none of us are infallible, and we are always open to suggestion, and do what we do because we think that it is in your best interests. As this community includes both tattoo artists, piercers and their customers, we have to be fair to everyone too.

RxQueen

so we only give good accounts and stories of things we got done?? ie bad things form "such good artists" cant be told incase we ruin there career

Star Lord

emo!! wrote: »

so we only give good accounts and stories of things we got done?? ie bad things form "such good artists" cant be told incase we ruin there career

Did you actually read what I wrote?

RxQueen

yeah i did..

maybe im just need things spelt out a lil more than some people..

i dont get what your saying, so we can rave about how good snakebite are still , but we cant say anything bad about say G.A anymore incause it ruins there career..

jenizzle

i think what they're getting at is stopping randomers with a few posts just posting for the purpose of slagging off premises. I think Will has mentioned that any constructive criticism by regular members would still be welcome, thats what I got from his post anyway.

Will

Constructive criticism from any member is welcome, not just regulars, as long as it is backed up with personal experience and hard evidence. It's to try stop people who are out on a witch hunt.

Hellrazer

Ok it was my decision to implement the new rule and heres my explanation.

I was prompted by the Inkjection thread where the OP started the usual "a friend of a friend of a friend" got inked there and now its infected and he doesnt have any hygiene standards etc.
This really pissed me rightly off.Im sick to the teeth of people who dont have first hand experience putting shops down.
Its dangerous to the shops livelihood and its also wrong in my opinion.
Now as for whether putting down someone who doesnt "like" someones elses ink thats adiffernt story.What I might think to look good someone else might think its crap but it could cause a shop to get a bad name.

Now if someone comes along and posts a picture of something that they personally got done(thats really bad) then thats fine.Let them tell people about their experience.

So we have two choices here.
1.We either leave the new rule in place or
2.We come down heavy handed on people whos first line is " afriend of a friend......got inked/pierced there etc etc"
We issue a 1 week ban for all of these breaches in the rules.No exceptions.

Now as for the Georges arcade--we all have first hand experience of that place.In my experience it was when I saw them use a gun on a piercing that should never have been done with a gun.

Maybe the rule was a bit harsh but in all fairness unless someone has first hand experience then they dont have any right to put down a shop.


Richie.

Star Lord

I'd say that we go the way of your second suggestion Richie, and be heavy handed on anyone that breaks this rule.

Diceicle

So what happend in the situation where a new poster comes to T&P to get an opinion on a shop they're thinking of going to? The shop in question is generally known to be a butcher-shop and the guy inside happens to turn out utter dross tattoos. Are we to say nothing seeing as how nobody with any sort of knowledge about decent tattooing would go to this fictional shop?
I think matters like the one Hellrazer is talking about (new poster thrashing a shops rep) sort themselves out. As I may have said earlier, if I were to post a thread saying Snakebite were woeful at what they do, then I think we can all guess what the following posts would all be like!
As long as mods can apply such a policy with discression and by that I mean not hammering both regular decent posters along with the new thrash talking posters then there shouldn't be too much of a problem with the policy at hand.

Hellrazer

Diceicle wrote: »

So what happend in the situation where a new poster comes to T&P to get an opinion on a shop they're thinking of going to? The shop in question is generally known to be a butcher-shop and the guy inside happens to turn out utter dross tattoos. Are we to say nothing seeing as how nobody with any sort of knowledge about decent tattooing would go to this fictional shop?

Ok heres my take on that and again its something that prompted my reaction yesterday.

In the last couple of weeks there was a shop mentioned somewhere here that were supposed to be "butchers"(maybe that wasnt the word used but it was definately not recommended by a few people)

Now I know this shop personally and my wife has had 4 tattoos done by the shop in question.and every one of those tattoos has been done professionally and without any question of anything unprofessional.

So how do you answer that?This shops reputation could have been destroyed by random chat on a internet forum yet Ive always found the shop excellent.

Its just something thats annoying the hell out of me.Can you imagine someone who got a bad tattoo again in their opinion (say by way of bad aftercare) from (insert one of the regulars recommended shops here)

You lot would be down on them like a ton of bricks yet this person had a bad experience from them in their opinion.

You see that there is my problem^^^

One persons opinion can differ from another persons.

If you havent got proof then dont put down anyones business here.

RxQueen

but not everyone is going to agree, one person could have a great experience with a place, another person might have a woeful experience.


i agree with the friend of a friend of a friend thing, that is true - that like me looking at tv and then basing an experience on what someone has said from there and spreading it around the place

what if you followed the healing procedure perfect and in the end of the day its still ****, are we not allow say that in fear of being banned? just cause the place is apparntly **** cool as said here on the interwbz

Any business regardless of how good it is is going to get bad press etc, i could go over to the travel forum now and read things about where i work if i wanted, and yet look wer're still open!!.

I think what Deciele said is bang on .. why tar regular user with the same brush as n00b's or people who never post here, and just start a thread to bitch.. ban them, infract them, why put regualr users noses out of joint

jenizzle

It is hard to moderate opinion. Not every place is infallible, piercings will reject even though the best piercer has given the best aftercare advice etc. and people are easy to blame the "crap piercer". If someone comes looking for advice, post your experience about it - whether good or bad. It will be up to them (the OP) to decide whether to listen to you or not. It will be up to the mods to decide if what you're saying is just your own experience or an excuse to slag off a place for the hell of it.

Star Lord

emo!! wrote: »

but not everyone is going to agree, one person could have a great experience with a place, another person might have a woeful experience.

what if you followed the healing procedure perfect and in the end of the day its still ****, are we not allow say that in fear of being banned? just cause the place is apparntly **** cool as said here on the interwbz

Those would be based on your first hand experience, so would be fine to post.

I think what Deciele said is bang on .. why tar regular user with the same brush as n00b's or people who never post here, and just start a thread to bitch.. ban them, infract them, why put regualr users noses out of joint

Because everyone has to be treated the same, be they new users or people who are here since Boards was started. Anything else really would be favouritism or elitism, and not something that we want to do.

Molberts

everyone chill... this isn't a big deal.

OP raised a valid point, mods have clarified, whats the issue?

Will

it's damn hard to moderate this, what is a quality piercing? how can it be defined? what is a bad piercing? I see lots of poorly placed piercings, ones that shouldnt have healed yet have. Is that a good or bad piercing? Same could be said for a tattoo in ways.

No studio is in-fallible, even the best places around have off days, tattooists and piercers a like.

How is a studio defined as good? Even with a perfectly placed piercing or finely executed tattoo if the person doesn't do any of the after care it will turn to muck.

People have their favourite studios, people recommend them.

It's pretty hard to tell who is just an avid supporter of a studio and who is a subtle shill. I know of at least one poster who was an apprentice in a local place, who would always recommend the studio they worked in. I only found out after the person was let go.

There are probably a few people here who work in studios that we are unaware of.
and it's foolish to think that we are in a bubble, it's a publicly viewable forum so you can be damn sure the studios are looking at the forum regularly. they mightn't be registered or whatever but can still see all this.

but yeah chill

Diceicle

Hellrazer wrote: »

In the last couple of weeks there was a shop mentioned somewhere here that were supposed to be "butchers"(maybe that wasnt the word used but it was definately not recommended by a few people)

Now I know this shop personally and my wife has had 4 tattoos done by the shop in question.and every one of those tattoos has been done professionally and without any question of anything unprofessional.

So how do you answer that?This shops reputation could have been destroyed by random chat on a internet forum yet Ive always found the shop excellent.

You kind of answered your own question there, and I know the point your making but where I'm coming from is that if someone starts a thread flaming a shop for whatever reason, then confront them about it. Give them the benefit of your experience and everyone else does the same. If a shop is being falsely cr@pped on then the weight of public opinion on here will hammer the truth out. That goes for people claiming so-and-so is a cr@p piercer or whatever. It makes sense.

In response to what Damo says about treating everyone the same, I have to disagree. It would be rude and inconsiderate to regular posters for me to sign up to a new internet forum and start throwing my weight around, giving the regulars stick and generally acting the bol**x within 5 posts. When you sign up to a forum a certain amount of politness and knowing your place is only right, regular posters should be given a certain amount of leaway as they have proven themselves to be sources of genuine advice and not some troll with too much time on their hands.

DeVore

Hello.

I'm not sure I've ever been in this forum before. *

The title caught my eye so, as if by majic, DeVore appeared. (hence my avatar, which no one gets )


We're not anti honesty. But what is "honest". Let me try and give you the basic breakdown:

Saying your mates mate got a tattoo and he says the place was crap is defined as "hearsay" and its illegal. (you heard it , you say it, you dont know that its true at all).

Saying "I went there and I'm not happy with the outcome for reasons X, Y, Z", is fair comment and perfectly legit.

Commenting on a persons ability to do their job is decidedly dodgy territory so saying "yer man is the worst piercer in the country, I dont know why anyone would employ him", is defamation and DECIDEDLY illegal.

So, yes there is a line to be walked and you have to be fair to everyone, including the studios who may be getting a bad rap from your mates mate simply because he's a muppet. There are two sides to every story.

Mods, there is a really clear explanation on all of this from Hullaballoo in the Mod forum and the Legal subforum.

No one is trying to hide the "truth", but determining who is telling it ... thats the tricky part...

DeV.
*I do have a plan for a tattoo and a design etc, but we'll, I'm kinda chicken. lol... also I'm not 110% certain about it.
I did almost get it done in Vegas while plastered (deliberately) but my mate and I both bottled it cos we sobered up in the queue.

Will

Yeah seen all the stuff there.
May pop over and create something, try get answers