Ireland's contribution to the EU

Purple Gorilla

So I've been talking with the English lad, and he said that all Ireland has done in the EU is leech off it. This made me think, what have our contributions to the EU been? Have we pretty much payed back all the money they gave us through the structural funds or is this guy right?

amacachi

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

So I've been talking with the English lad, and he said that all Ireland has done in the EU is leech off it. This made me think, what have our contributions to the EU been? Have we pretty much payed back all the money they gave us through the structural funds or is this guy right?

We've got some farming subsidies too I believe.

Purple Gorilla

Doesn't really help our case considering we receive more than double in CAP Payments than we actually pay for :P

ynotdu

some of the E U countries funded us for well meaning motives.

some because we in the event of war in Europe are so well placed on the map.

most did it to bring us up to the level of an economy they could export to helping to keep their exports&jobs going

Nody

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

So I've been talking with the English lad, and he said that all Ireland has done in the EU is leech off it. This made me think, what have our contributions to the EU been? Have we pretty much payed back all the money they gave us through the structural funds or is this guy right?

Up to 2004 EU paid out 34 Billion Euro net to Ireland (not adjusted to today's value). 2007 was the first year on the top of my head that Ireland actually paid more to EU then EU paid to Ireland. So the answer is no; no where close to paying back the money.

Victor

Well do you only count what they paid directly to the government or do you include amounts that went direct to businesses or individuals?

Against the CAP, do you offset the amount of fishing done by foreign fleets in Irish waters? Do you count the food security it gave Europe?

ynotdu

Up to 2004 EU paid out 34 Billion Euro net to Ireland (not adjusted to today's value). 2007 was the first year on the top of my head that Ireland actually paid more to EU then EU paid to Ireland. So the answer is no; no where close to paying back the money.

Hey thanks for the roads ;-)

Scofflaw

Nody wrote: »

Up to 2004 EU paid out 34 Billion Euro net to Ireland (not adjusted to today's value). 2007 was the first year on the top of my head that Ireland actually paid more to EU then EU paid to Ireland. So the answer is no; no where close to paying back the money.

Nowhere near it indeed - we're still net recipients, to the tune of half a billion last year...

Year|From the EU (€m)|To the EU (€m)|Net Receipts (€m)|% of GDP
2008|2159.8|1700|459.8|0.20%
2007|2088.8|1570|518.8|0.30%
2006|2200.8|1529.7|671|0.40%
2005|2382.6|1496.9|885.7|0.50%
2004|2602|1185.5|1416.5|1.00%
2003|2575.8|1190.4|1385.4|1.00%
2002|2510.7|1011.2|1499.5|1.20%
2001|2408.1|1220|1188.1|1.00%
2000|2601.9|1075|1527|1.50%
1999|2678.9|1051|1627.9|1.80%
1998|3015.1|989.4|2025.7|2.60%
1997|3190|652|2537.9|3.70%
1996|2820.4|687.1|2133.3|3.60%
1995|2566.5|689.2|1877.3|3.60%
1994|2338|641.9|1696.1|3.70%
1993|2849.8|575.8|2274|5.30%
1992|2531.9|448.7|2083.1|5.20%
1991|2795|442.1|2352.8|6.20%
1990|2210.6|359.2|1851.4|5.10%
1989|1644.7|362.6|1282.1|3.80%
1988|1474.9|314.6|1160.3|3.90%
1987|1397.1|324|1073.1|3.80%
1986|1455.9|305.1|1150.8|4.40%
1985|1433.2|270.8|1162.3|4.70%
1984|1100.5|257.1|843.4|3.70%
1983|924|234.5|689.5|3.40%
1982|764.5|173.6|590.9|3.20%
1981|643.5|133.8|509.7|3.20%
1980|711.8|112.9|598.9|4.60%
1979|671.8|77|594.9|5.40%
1978|520.9|58.5|462.3|5.00%
1977|346.5|28.1|318.5|4.10%
1976|151.7|17|134.7|2.10%
1975|138.5|12.4|126.1|2.40%
1974|85.6|7|78.6|1.90%
1973|47.1|5.7|41.4|1.10%


Now, what we receive is a negotiated amount, whereas what we pay in is based on a levy on VAT. We were expected to become net payers - that is, to start paying more to the EU than we receive in any given year - in 2013, based on a continued 5-6% annual growth in VAT receipts (2006 growth rate).

So in 4-5 years time, if we had continued growing at our 2006 rate, we would have started on paying back the EU. Obviously, our growth rates have reversed...

cordially,
Scofflaw

kevteljeur

ynotdu wrote: »

some of the E U countries funded us for well meaning motives.

some because we in the event of war in Europe are so well placed on the map.

most did it to bring us up to the level of an economy they could export to helping to keep their exports&jobs going

There is a sort of pyramid-scheme aspect to the EU and the way it expands; I believe this is one of the aspects to whether or not Turkey should join. That in itself worries me, because it doesn't seem to me like a good long-term strategy for stability.

In Ireland's case, I seem to remember that Ireland joined the EEC on the back of the UK's application (it was a condition of the UK joining, was it not?), since with the very close political, social and economic ties between the two it isn't really feasible for one to integrate with a political and economic entity without the other.

Apologies if this is somewhat off-topic.


Edit: If the EU gains a developing country with a pyramid-scheme approach, and then the country economically collapses with more than a little help from it's own internal economic policies, in spite of EU recommendations, then I can't see how there won't be EU sanctions at some level. Perhaps the lack of aid from the EU is that sanction, for Ireland. But in a sense, the EU is to blame for not enforcing it's own stability to a greater degree, to return it's investment from, for example, Ireland.

Thinking aloud here. Glad to stand corrected.

Purple Gorilla

So the guy was right? We just leech off the EU?

Hitman Actual

A good book to read would be Behind Closed Doors by Peter Brennan. It's a boring slog in places, but it does give an excellent overview of Ireland's negotiations for EU Cohesion Funds.

To say we 'leeched' off Europe is a bit strong, but when you read that book you will see that our role has always been very much one of looking for funds, and not contributing much in return.

Hitman Actual

ynotdu wrote: »

some of the E U countries funded us for well meaning motives.

some because we in the event of war in Europe are so well placed on the map.

Perhaps, but you must remember that there is nothing in the EU framework (i.e. Treaties) that would allow the island to be used as a 'war asset'.

ynotdu wrote: »

most did it to bring us up to the level of an economy they could export to helping to keep their exports&jobs going

It works both ways though- we get access to a vast market too. And the bigger EU countries (i.e. net contributors) have always been very reluctant in negotiations to give up too much. The work done by various Irish governments in the 70's, 80's and '90's to secure funding should put the current hapless crowd to shame. You're right about getting funding to bring our economy more in line with other EU countries, but it was mostly on our insistence and hard work in negotiations that this happened. And countries like Spain, Portugal and Greece have a lot to thank Ireland for for the work they did on Cohesion Funds in the early days.

limklad

Scofflaw wrote: »

Nowhere near it indeed - we're still net recipients, to the tune of half a billion last year...

Year|From the EU (€m)|To the EU (€m)|Net Receipts (€m)|% of GDP
2008|2159.8|1700|459.8|0.20%
2007|2088.8|1570|518.8|0.30%
2006|2200.8|1529.7|671|0.40%
2005|2382.6|1496.9|885.7|0.50%
2004|2602|1185.5|1416.5|1.00%
2003|2575.8|1190.4|1385.4|1.00%
2002|2510.7|1011.2|1499.5|1.20%
2001|2408.1|1220|1188.1|1.00%
2000|2601.9|1075|1527|1.50%
1999|2678.9|1051|1627.9|1.80%
1998|3015.1|989.4|2025.7|2.60%
1997|3190|652|2537.9|3.70%
1996|2820.4|687.1|2133.3|3.60%
1995|2566.5|689.2|1877.3|3.60%
1994|2338|641.9|1696.1|3.70%
1993|2849.8|575.8|2274|5.30%
1992|2531.9|448.7|2083.1|5.20%
1991|2795|442.1|2352.8|6.20%
1990|2210.6|359.2|1851.4|5.10%
1989|1644.7|362.6|1282.1|3.80%
1988|1474.9|314.6|1160.3|3.90%
1987|1397.1|324|1073.1|3.80%
1986|1455.9|305.1|1150.8|4.40%
1985|1433.2|270.8|1162.3|4.70%
1984|1100.5|257.1|843.4|3.70%
1983|924|234.5|689.5|3.40%
1982|764.5|173.6|590.9|3.20%
1981|643.5|133.8|509.7|3.20%
1980|711.8|112.9|598.9|4.60%
1979|671.8|77|594.9|5.40%
1978|520.9|58.5|462.3|5.00%
1977|346.5|28.1|318.5|4.10%
1976|151.7|17|134.7|2.10%
1975|138.5|12.4|126.1|2.40%
1974|85.6|7|78.6|1.90%
1973|47.1|5.7|41.4|1.10%

Now, what we receive is a negotiated amount, whereas what we pay in is based on a levy on VAT. We were expected to become net payers - that is, to start paying more to the EU than we receive in any given year - in 2013, based on a continued 5-6% annual growth in VAT receipts (2006 growth rate).

So in 4-5 years time, if we had continued growing at our 2006 rate, we would have started on paying back the EU. Obviously, our growth rates have reversed...

cordially,
Scofflaw

What about the Rich Fishing grounds that we lost from our seas to other EU Members due to EU membership? Is that not worth anything?

bijapos

During the 'debate' around the last Lisbon Treaty it was mentioned that in todays money ca €180 Billion (!!) has been fished from our waters since 1973. Have heard similar numbers a couple of times over the years, dunno if they are true but if not nobody seems to be denying/ridiculing this.

r14

bijapos wrote: »

During the 'debate' around the last Lisbon Treaty it was mentioned that in todays money ca €180 Billion (!!) has been fished from our waters since 1973. Have heard similar numbers a couple of times over the years, dunno if they are true but if not nobody seems to be denying/ridiculing this.

I'd really question that figure given the Irish fishing industry is worth circa 180-200 million a year. Can't imagine how anyone could get a thousand times that catch out of our waters even over 35 years. Quite apart from that it would be impossible to actually stop people fishing our waters unless we decided to invest in a few aircraft carriers or something.

As against what we lose in fisheries we have received 40.8 billion from the EU since 1973 as well as the huge benefit which the common market has given us in terms of exports.

I don't think fortress Ireland could survive on our fishing industry if we weren't in the EU.

PHB

limklad wrote: »

What about the Rich Fishing grounds that we lost from our seas to other EU Members due to EU membership? Is that not worth anything?

What about the access to markets which is basically the core of our economy? People who use the catch argument really are just grasping at straws.

blinding

It has been the influence of us peace loving Irish that has stopped the Big European contries having a go at one another militarally since we joined up.
We are well worth it for our unseen work in this difficult area.
I don't think the rest of the europeans even realise how busy we are keeping them from one anothers throats.
Typical Irish so much hard work and so little recognition.
Its a tough job but some one has to do it.

Scofflaw

r14 wrote: »

I'd really question that figure given the Irish fishing industry is worth circa 180-200 million a year. Can't imagine how anyone could get a thousand times that catch out of our waters even over 35 years. Quite apart from that it would be impossible to actually stop people fishing our waters unless we decided to invest in a few aircraft carriers or something.

As against what we lose in fisheries we have received 40.8 billion from the EU since 1973 as well as the huge benefit which the common market has given us in terms of exports.

I don't think fortress Ireland could survive on our fishing industry if we weren't in the EU.

The more so since the reason we had such a tiny fishing industry when we went into the EU was that we had no markets for the fish bar Ireland and the UK.

There is a long discussion in the forum about the value of Irish fisheries, but the claim of €200 billion is highly dubious, relying as it does on including all Atlantic waters and then multiplying the value by 2-3 times for the "processing chain".

Can dig up the relevant posts if you're interested.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ynotdu

for the impact on real people,i.e our fishermen just listen regularly to seascapes on rte radio 1 or podcast from rte website.

no amount of facts or figures posted here(however accurate)can take the sad tone from their voices at the state of the Irish fishing industry they love so much.

their are always people&heritage behind facts and figures:(

Scofflaw

ynotdu wrote: »

for the impact on real people,i.e our fishermen just listen regularly to seascapes on rte radio 1 or podcast from rte website.

no amount of facts or figures posted here(however accurate)can take the sad tone from their voices at the state of the Irish fishing industry they love so much.

their are always people&heritage behind facts and figures:(

That's a fair point, and I wouldn't claim the CFP is far short of a disaster, from the straitjacket on national fleets (and the favouritism shown to the Atlantic Dawn) to the politicians setting of the quotas. There's no denying that our fishing industry, such as it was, was traded off against the farming sector back in 1973 - but that's an entirely different thing from claiming that "the EU stole our fish".

cordially,
Scofflaw

lostexpectation

its all about the sea, look how much teroritory it brings the eu, 1/3 way cross the atlantic

Scofflaw

lostexpectation wrote: »

its all about the sea, look how much teroritory it brings the eu, 1/3 way cross the atlantic

Unfortunately for that argument, when we entered the EU, our territorial waters were 12 miles and there was no such thing as an EEZ. We didn't have an EEZ until 1976, and we didn't extend our waters out to their current limit until 2007. Our 'underwater territorial expansion' that people now take for granted has happened under the aegis of the EU - without EU assistance (seven fishery protection vessels were built with EU money) we would never have had a credible claim to control of the area.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ynotdu

Scoflaw you seem very knowledgable in this whole area and like many a messanger simply passing on the facts you must at times feel like you will be shot for it!:)

Question for you,did,nt the Irish navy buy ships from the british navy at some time?

I believe the ships passed the 40 foot(the last bastion that was left for guys to hang around and swim naked without a woman to be seen:)
supposedly most of the guys at the forty foot that day were sure it was the womens liberation movement(aka chop their goolies off brigade)about to launch missiles at them:D

Do you know is it true or myth that we bought ships from the British navy?
Thanks in advance

Scofflaw

ynotdu wrote: »

Scoflaw you seem very knowledgable in this whole area and like many a messanger simply passing on the facts you must at times feel like you will be shot for it!:)

Question for you,did,nt the Irish navy buy ships from the british navy at some time?

I believe the ships passed the 40 foot(the last bastion that was left for guys to hang around and swim naked without a woman to be seen:)
supposedly most of the guys at the forty foot that day were sure it was the womens liberation movement(aka chop their goolies off brigade)about to launch missiles at them:D

Do you know is it true or myth that we bought ships from the British navy?
Thanks in advance

We bought 6 MTBs (Motor Torpedo Boats) from the British in 1939, then 3 Flower class corvettes from them in 1946-7, then finally 3 Coastal Minesweepers from them in 1971.

During WW2, the Irish "Marine Service" consisted of those 6 MTBs and 4 "assorted vessels", with 300 personnel. As soon as the war ended, the Marine Service was quickly run down and the ships were sold off as soon as possible.

That was then reversed in 1946, when what remained of the Marine Service (160 personnel and a couple of MTBs) was incorporated into the Defence Forces as the Naval Service, which rose to a strength of 400 ratings. The last MTB was retired in 1952.

The Naval Service consisted of those 3 Corvettes through the 1950s and 60s. Between 1968 and 1970 the Corvettes reached the end of their operational life and were retired. For a few months in 1970 the Naval Service had no ships, and the personnel were leaving in droves. Eventually the government managed to decide to buy the three minesweepers from the UK, and these were brought into service in 1971. In 1972 the LE Deirdre was commissioned - the first ever purpose-built Irish naval vessel.

That's where we were when we joined the EU. Not exactly a dynamic seafaring nation...

cordially,
Scofflaw

ynotdu

Scofflaw wrote: »

We bought 6 MTBs (Motor Torpedo Boats) from the British in 1939, then 3 Flower class corvettes from them in 1946-7, then finally 3 Coastal Minesweepers from them in 1971.

During WW2, the Irish "Marine Service" consisted of those 6 MTBs and 4 "assorted vessels", with 300 personnel. As soon as the war ended, the Marine Service was quickly run down and the ships were sold off as soon as possible.

That was then reversed in 1946, when what remained of the Marine Service (160 personnel and a couple of MTBs) was incorporated into the Defence Forces as the Naval Service, which rose to a strength of 400 ratings. The last MTB was retired in 1952.

The Naval Service consisted of those 3 Corvettes through the 1950s and 60s. Between 1968 and 1970 the Corvettes reached the end of their operational life and were retired. For a few months in 1970 the Naval Service had no ships, and the personnel were leaving in droves. Eventually the government managed to decide to buy the three minesweepers from the UK, and these were brought into service in 1971. In 1972 the LE Deirdre was commissioned - the first ever purpose-built Irish naval vessel.

That's where we were when we joined the EU. Not exactly a dynamic seafaring nation...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw again thank you for the info!

what i have heard though more were bought sometime in approx the last twenty years?
Regards

DJCR

Hitman Actual wrote: »

Perhaps, but you must remember that there is nothing in the EU framework (i.e. Treaties) that would allow the island to be used as a 'war asset'

From my understanding there is already an agreement between the UK and Ireland that in Emergencies the RAF can patrol and shoot down anything in Irish airspace.

The Island as a war asset. (Not that we would be much of an asset anyway).... but if we were ever attacked, under the Lisbon Treaty (at least my interpretation) other EU states would be obliged to help us in any way they can (Military or otherwise ie. supplies, food etc).... should we ask for help of course. So I could see a few troops from the UK... seen as we have a land border with them + others arriving to help!!!
could attack most of Europe fairly handily. So to realte to an earlier point ...

At the end of the day we are the front line so to speak (Western Front)... If an enemy set up base here they its in the EU's interest to have us as a member from that point of view.... possibly.

Scofflaw

ynotdu wrote: »

Scofflaw again thank you for the info!

what i have heard though more were bought sometime in approx the last twenty years?
Regards

Well, going forward from where I left off, we commissioned:

1978 LE Emer
1979 LE Aoife
1980 LE Aisling
1984 LE Eithne

And we bought 2 more ships from the British in 1988, the LE Orla and LE Ciara, both Coastal Patrol Vessels formerly in the British Navy in Hong Kong as the HMS Swift and HMS Swallow. Those are presumably the ones you're thinking of?

Then commissioned:

1999 LE Roisin
2001 LE Niamh

As far as I know, all vessels after the Deirdre have been either wholly or partly EU funded. The Deirdre has been retired, and was sold at auction to be refitted as a luxury yacht, so we currently have 8 vessels, patrolling 16% of EU waters.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ynotdu

Swift and Swallow i,m pretty sure is what I was told about ok!
thanks&regards

ynotdu

DJCR wrote: »

From my understanding there is already an agreement between the UK and Ireland that in Emergencies the RAF can patrol and shoot down anything in Irish airspace.

The Island as a war asset. (Not that we would be much of an asset anyway).... but if we were ever attacked, under the Lisbon Treaty (at least my interpretation) other EU states would be obliged to help us in any way they can (Military or otherwise ie. supplies, food etc).... should we ask for help of course. So I could see a few troops from the UK... seen as we have a land border with them + others arriving to help!!!
could attack most of Europe fairly handily. So to realte to an earlier point ...

At the end of the day we are the front line so to speak (Western Front)... If an enemy set up base here they its in the EU's interest to have us as a member from that point of view.... possibly.

Anybody really believe in the event of war any international treaties would be respected,Anybody really believe if ww2 had gone diffriently Churchill would have hesitated to march back in?

we were neutral on the side of the allies&the Americans and British had the use of the six counties anyway.

Bush with our govts consent allowed Shannon airport for refueling of planes on war missions to Iraq and extraordinary rendition missions.
DeValera signed the book of condolences for Hitler.

I think we are as a nation are moral cowards at times.
know NATO would defend us but we will not join.
know the us is our best friend in the world but always waiting to criticise.
we find abortion distasteful but sometimes a nescessary evil but no clinics here,have to go abroad,let somebody else do the dirty work is the thread that runs through almost every aspect of our society!

K-9

ynotdu wrote: »

Anybody really believe in the event of war any international treaties would be respected,Anybody really believe if ww2 had gone diffriently Churchill would have hesitated to march back in?

we were neutral on the side of the allies&the Americans and British had the use of the six counties anyway.

Bush with our govts consent allowed Shannon airport for refueling of planes on war missions to Iraq and extraordinary rendition missions.
DeValera signed the book of condolences for Hitler.

I think we are as a nation are moral cowards at times.
know NATO would defend us but we will not join.
know the us is our best friend in the world but always waiting to criticise.
we find abortion distasteful but sometimes a nescessary evil but no clinics here,have to go abroad,let somebody else do the dirty work is the thread that runs through almost every aspect of our society!

Indeed, except for Pearl Harbour, thus bringing the Americans to NI, we could well have been invaded.

WooPeeA

Scofflaw wrote: »

Nowhere near it indeed - we're still net recipients, to the tune of half a billion last year...

It's really weird that Ireland with really big GDP per capita is still asking EU for extra money..

There's lots of countries with lower GDP per capita than Ireland and they are are funding that extra money every year. Where's the sense?