How poor are the poor, really?

Blangis

With all the talk of equality and sharing the pain and so on being all about taking money off those who are seen to be able to pay the most, I'd really like to know how much money the "poor" actually have.

I am in the 4% levy bracket so assumed to be in some way sitting pretty. Before the current levies, my mortgage and other household bills and so on consumed 80% of my take home pay. The current levies bring this up to about 92%, leaving me very little to save for emergencies, retirement, kids' education etc. When the next tax increases come in, I will have nothing left. I live in a modest 3 bed house in an unspectacular suburb of Dublin which I bought last summer for much more than it was worth, but which I had no choice but to buy at the time, due to various reasons. In short, my family and I are far from well off and just get by, month to month.

There is almost no margin of safety for us, but we are the people that everybody turns on at a time like this. The govt and the angry populace turn on us because they assume that we live some kind of dream existence and are able to pay and pay and pay, and that no cuts are too deep for us.

But the fact is that we are basically slaves. We work for rich people and large companies and make much more money for them than we will ever see in our lives. Then big chunks of what we are paid are taken off us to give to the people who are considered to be more deserving than us, and we are supposed to feel in some way privileged, or lucky, and in a weird way guilty for whatever we have. Well, the fact is that most of us don't have that much at all, and the only reason that you don't hear us moaning or see us protesting is because we are far too busy working for everybody else, and scared to do anything that might jeopardise our ability to look after our families.

So what I want to know is what the position is really like for all of the so-called deserving poor. I saw something on this site about a guy who was receiving benefits worth about 48,000 a year because he has four kids. This is equivalent to a six figure salary before tax, yet he is considered to be deserving and I am one of the bad guys that is supposed to be milked dry and worked into the ground so that he can be taken care of?

So who are the deserving poor? Fintan O'Toole came on Questions & Answers and went on about cleaners on 400 per week being the poor. But how many of these really exist? I worked in minimum wage jobs in my teens & twenties and the only other people I saw in these jobs were people like me - dossers, students and people who were travelling; basically, middle class kids who were taking some time out before beginning their life of slavery. The few cleaners from inner city Dublin that I came across were receiving plenty of benefits, knew every scam in the book, and had partners who were tradesmen that were bringing in very good money. None of them were relying on only their minimum wage. So how many people are really trying to raise families on 400 per week and nothing more? I would say they are few and far between.

My bet is that the average value of a so-called poor person's yearly income and benefits is equivalent to a pre-tax salary of 40-50,000 euros per annum. So what makes them so f*cking deserving?

ParkRunner

To be in the 4% category you must be earning over €75k which isnt a bad income at all, more than double the average industrial wage. Like the government, I think your focus should be on your expenditure. Surely you can make ends meet and save a modest amount on that income with some cutbacks?

I agree with you that social welfare in this country is very generous and should be decreased at least in line with the reduced cost of living in this country. And hopefully it will be tackled in the next budget as it is only fair at this stage. Moreso I hope every fraudulent social welfare recipient is caught and made payback anything they were not entitled to get.

I cant imagine how you could be forced into buying a house though? I was forced into not buying a house because the mortgage repayments would have been just crippling. I presume you are on a fixed rate too?

Permabear

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Dr Galen

it's beginning to look like the DonegalFella Liberal Party is gaining ground.........:)

Tbh OP many people like yourself are in the same position. Thats why the middle income earners where hit in the last budget and will be again. We make up a sizeable proportion of the population, but we don't really have a unifying cause, like the pensioners or the students. We're generally too busy trying to get on with our lives to have time to march or support organised protest, so in short we're an easy target politically.

If we were coming up to an election, things would have been different, as voting power to a large extent rests with the middle income/class. The government are pretty much hedging their bets that there isn't an election around the corner, and so can afford to lose a bit of support from this group in the short to medium term, hopefully then things will have turned around, and they will try and placate people with something closer to election time. Of course it could all backfire, if an election is forced in the next few months.

As for the poor, well there are plenty of people out there living in very poor conditions. They most definitely deserve our help. Not charity though. Welfare should be targeted at actually getting people out of the welfare system and back on their feet. Not sustaining the situation, and that unfortunately is what has happened in many many cases.

Means testing of aspects of the welfare system such as child benefit would be a good start. Make sure that those who really don't need it aren't getting it, so that we can really make a pragmatic difference to those who do. There was another poster on some other thread on the politics forum,(can't find it now) who said she was a single mother and couldn't get a medical card for her kid when he/she was first born. Many in that situation sit back and use the welfare to support them, but appears this girl has actually gone on and done something (photography business) worthwhile and beneficial. The money we could save from proper administration of benefits could go to start-up grants for people like this. Sure, they aren't going to take over the business world, but over time we'd see a net benefit to the economy when multiplied out.

Blangis

My point is that the current thinking assumes that I am living a life of ease and plenty, while the poor are living in the lowest sewers of misery and filth.

The facts are that I am just about getting by while they are living quite happily thanks to me and people like me. The life on council estates suits them just fine and they are happy there.

If Marx were alive today, he would quickly spot that the means of production (i.e. the work done by the middle classes) are now being exploited by not only the rich, but also the "poor."

silverharp

Blangis wrote: »

My point is that the current thinking assumes that I am living a life of ease and plenty, while the poor are living in the lowest sewers of misery and filth.

I think the current thinking is that people in your position are a soft touch , its that simple. in the anology of 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner, who do you think you are?

bullpost

My opinion on this is that those that bought property in the last few years are now burdened with the debt from our so-called boom and will be paying over the odds payments back to the banks for the foreseeable future.

I think there should be some sort of adjustment for those people to offset this burden against the new levies being introduced.
Mostly these are young families and their large mortgages are going to impact their standard of living for years to come.
But this is not likely to happen and therefore all you can realistically do is let your local Fianna Fail councillor have it when they come looking for your vote shortly.

Blangis

donegalfella wrote: »

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All loans are speculative. All business is speculative.

When there is a boom in demand for a certain product, the producers of that product are going to increase production in the expectation of increased sales. If the bottom falls out of the market some producers are going to end up sitting on a lot of suddenly worthless inventory.

I don't understand why a people who expected - and consumed - an almost endless supply of credit from banks are now saying, in retrospect, that the banks should have denied them all the loans they were clamouring for.

Is it not a bit like suing the tobacco companies for giving you cancer?

Permabear

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Permabear

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bullpost

We don't live in a completely libertarian society and therefore most people would think its reasonable that there be safeguards in place to maintain a balance which benefits everyone.
Unfortunately it seems that because of lax regulation under Fianna Fails watch , those safeguards didn't work.

Now ordinary people will carry the can for this long after this recession (hopefully) is over.
In the meantime the Financial institutions are bailed out :mad:.

deadhead13

The official poverty line is set at 60% of the median income, the 2009 figure is 229.47euros per week for a single person. For a family of 2 adults 3 children 608.10euros per week. 2007 data puts the number of people below this level 685,000, 15.8% of the population. 1/3 of such households have a least one adult working and they are class as "the working poor".

sparklepants

Blangis wrote: »

There is almost no margin of safety for us, but we are the people that everybody turns on at a time like this. The govt and the angry populace turn on us because they assume that we live some kind of dream existence and are able to pay and pay and pay, and that no cuts are too deep for us.

It appears to me that each section of society "turns on" another when required to to make sacrifices for the good of society as a whole. It's a measure of how selfish we've become. In this forum this morning alone people are turning on politicians, teachers, foreigners, etc.

My bet is that the average value of a so-called poor person's yearly income and benefits is equivalent to a pre-tax salary of 40-50,000 euros per annum. So what makes them so f*cking deserving?

... and now you're turning on the "deserving poor"! You create a fictional character in your mind's eye of this "so-called poor person" and then throw around anecdotes and unrepresentative numbers to support your creation. There must be a scientific term in psychology that describes how we point the finger of blame at those sectors of society from which we feel most removed.

So how do you think that this divisive and society-damaging exercise in finger-pointing will help this economy overcome its current difficulties?

Daithinski

Quote:

My bet is that the average value of a so-called poor person's yearly income and benefits is equivalent to a pre-tax salary of 40-50,000 euros per annum. So what makes them so f*cking deserving?

If you really think its so great, why don't you quit your job and you too can live a life of luxury on the dole.

AARRRGH

Blangis wrote: »

My bet is that the average value of a so-called poor person's yearly income and benefits is equivalent to a pre-tax salary of 40-50,000 euros per annum. So what makes them so f*cking deserving?

I don't have any figures, but I know a few 'single' mothers from west Dublin. They are never short for cash, have a free home, don't have any credit card debt, and have a better lifestyle than me, e.g. don't work and booze a lot.

gurramok

Blangis wrote: »

I am in the 4% levy bracket so assumed to be in some way sitting pretty. Before the current levies, my mortgage and other household bills and so on consumed 80% of my take home pay.

You see, thats the problem right there. Sounds like you have a jumbo mortgage and that is killing you.

Living beyond your means comes to mind.

Permabear

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AARRRGH

donegalfella wrote: »

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Not everybody.

Some of us understand the reality of the world, and some of us are not painfully selfish.

I know we're in the minority though!

elshambo

AARRRGH wrote: »

I don't have any figures, but I know a few 'single' mothers from west Dublin. They are never short for cash, have a free home, don't have any credit card debt, and have a better lifestyle than me, e.g. don't work and booze a lot.

there are a "FEW" in the system who are taking the p*** and giving everyone else in the system a really bad name!

I worked in a shop in dublin some time ago, lad came in every day with change from begging to exchange for notes and buy booze, shop manager got on with him so let him,everyone liked the guy

He was a nice old guy BUT I was always rude to him,
got asked one day why

Explained that he was making
at least 150 a day begging
+dole
+free gaff
+ various payments
he was an absolute min 55,000 a year TAX FREE!
for sitting on his ar*e drinking cans with a cup in his hand

He wasnt treated so nicely from then on:eek::p

HOWEVER
this "them on the dole have the life of riley while i struggle to live on 75,000 a year" moans help no one/nothing
and only make yourself feel worse,
the genuine cases fell like crap
and the actual spongers more protected by the hand wringers

So aah , SUCK IT UP!!!
hiting the dole is not the answer
hiting the politicans as to why the system is so playable is!
btw the system is playable so they can play it:eek: (tighten one end, they would get pressure to tighten at the other end and their friends who give money to the political parties would not like that)

ps if yer struggling by on 75,000 a year you may need to look at your spending habits and expenses!

cavedave

AARRRGH

Quote:
Originally Posted by donegalfella View Post
That's because everybody wants to see somebody else make the sacrifices.
Not everybody.

Some of us understand the reality of the world, and some of us are not painfully selfish.

So you don't support raising my taxes but your happy to donate more of your pay?

Permabear

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Blangis

sparklepants wrote: »

So how do you think that this divisive and society-damaging exercise in finger-pointing will help this economy overcome its current difficulties?

I don't think my posts here will have any effect on the economy.

I am going to pay whatever amount of tax the government decides, so the reality is that I contribute the most to society.

All I am saying here is that I am tired of the pretense that middle class people have great lives and can afford to be stung left right and centre; not only can we afford it, we should be slightly ashamed by how privileged we are, and that we are "painfully selfish" if we don't want to carry other people through life.

It is also tiring listening to this nonsense about "fairness" when it comes to poor people and rich people, but never when it comes to people like me.

How about the motto: "To each what he has earned" and not any of the other stuff?

AARRRGH

cavedave wrote: »

So you don't support raising my taxes but your happy to donate more of your pay?

I don't really understand what you're trying to say there, but for the record this is what I think -

If my employer has money problems, I accept I need to take a pay cut or be laid off. It doesn't matter if my employer is a private company or the Government.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Eh... you're ignoring the massive problem which is the Government has no money.

No one is saying you can't live as an individual, or that you should be mindless slaves.

I think you're confusing the issues.

cavedave

donegalfella

Libertarians are not "painfully selfish." We simply want people to be able to live as individuals, rather than being mindless slaves to a humongous raft of government programs that don't do anybody any good.

Actually I'm a libertarian because I am 'painfully selfish' and want to be able to do drugs, hookers and gamble to numb the pain.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say there, but for the record this is what I think -

If my employer has money problems, I accept I need to take a pay cut or be laid off. It doesn't matter if my employer is a private company or the Government.

Do you need to take a pay cut or do I need to take a pay cut? Are you willing to accept sacrifices for yourself or for other people as well?

elshambo

Blangis wrote: »

How about the motto: "To each what he has earned" and not any of the other stuff?

How much of what you have was 100% earned by your efforts alone?

At anytime was their a support network of Parents,Teachers,Doctors, Fellow workers, Employee's(?), Even Shelf stackers in supermarkets who have affected your life?

Where would you be without them?
and why should they bother if its all for one and one alone?

Funny think about Libertarians (who i agree with on an awful lot of things)
Its all Me Me Me Us(when it suits)

gurramok

Blangis wrote: »

I don't think my posts here will have any effect on the economy.

I am going to pay whatever amount of tax the government decides, so the reality is that I contribute the most to society.

All I am saying here is that I am tired of the pretense that middle class people have great lives and can afford to be stung left right and centre; not only can we afford it, we should be slightly ashamed by how privileged we are, and that we are "painfully selfish" if we don't want to carry other people through life.

It is also tiring listening to this nonsense about "fairness" when it comes to poor people and rich people, but never when it comes to people like me.

How about the motto: "To each what he has earned" and not any of the other stuff?

Outline what bills you have that took 80% of your high pay away before the recent taxes.

Your mortgage cannot be costing you more than 40% of your take home pay?

Something does not add up, you are not telling us the full story as you have not stated the mortgage costs and you have other bills which are 'anonymous'

Permabear

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AARRRGH

donegalfella wrote: »

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I'm not sure if you're confused or what, but the problem is the Government wants to spend _less_ but people like the teachers are threatening to go on strike to stop them.

donegalfella wrote: »

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More irrelevant nonsense. Will you try to stay on topic please.

Permabear

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AARRRGH

donegalfella wrote: »

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Obviously I know the Government were irresponsible, but we have no choice (I'm talking real world choice, not fantasy land politics) but to cut back expenditure.

donegalfella wrote: »

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No, it's irrelevant childish nonsense. I understand from your other posts you feel there is a need for some sort of revolution, but that's teenager talk.

Daithinski

Blangis wrote: »

How about the motto: "To each what he has earned" and not any of the other stuff?

Thats a great motto.

That way all those mentally and physically disabled scroungers wouldn't get a penny.

Would you really want to live in a society where that was the motto?