How poor are the poor, really?

Permabear

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Blangis

gurramok wrote: »

Outline what bills you have that took 80% of your high pay away before the recent taxes.

No

gurramok wrote: »

Your mortgage cannot be costing you more than 40% of your take home pay?

Something does not add up, you are not telling us the full story as you have not stated the mortgage costs and you have other bills which are 'anonymous'

I have no intention of telling you the full story of my monthly incomings and outgoings. The amount that represents 80% and now 92% of my take home pay is spent on standard, non-luxurious housing, clothing, food, heating, transport, insurance, etc. for myself and my family.

But that is not the point I am making. My point is that everybody assumes that people like me are rolling in it and I am saying that we are not, and that there is very little room for us to be squeezed further.

Blangis

Daithinski wrote: »

Thats a great motto.

That way all those mentally and physically disabled scroungers wouldn't get a penny.

Would you really want to live in a society where that was the motto?

I would like to live in a society where nobody is physically or mentally disabled, and where there aren't any scroungers.

AARRRGH

donegalfella wrote: »

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Why are you telling me this stuff?

Obviously I agree the system is full of problems.

donegalfella wrote: »

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You will never get what you want though, because that's not how the real world works.

The only options we have now are to increase tax, lower public spending, and borrow lots of money.

Yes, it would be lovely to start over again, but unfortunately we're stuck with our crappy system.

deadhead13

donegalfella wrote: »

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I am assuming you are a member of the Libertarian Association of Ireland. Just out of curiosity, how many members does it have?

AARRRGH

deadhead13 wrote: »

I am assuming you are a member of the Libertarian Association of Ireland. Just out of curiosity, how many members does it have?

12.

They hang out at the central bank doing parkour all day.

Permabear

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AARRRGH

donegalfella wrote: »

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OK, tell me our options, but please keep them realistic.

Blangis

elshambo wrote: »

How much of what you have was 100% earned by your efforts alone?

At anytime was their a support network of Parents,Teachers,Doctors, Fellow workers, Employee's(?), Even Shelf stackers in supermarkets who have affected your life?

Aside from my parents, all of the above were paid for the contributions they made to my life. My parents chose to provide for me of their own free will. Once I reached adulthood, they stopped, and they would be horrified if I asked them to resume.

gurramok

Blangis wrote: »

No



I have no intention of telling you the full story of my monthly incomings and outgoings. The amount that represents 80% and now 92% of my take home pay is spent on standard, non-luxurious housing, clothing, food, heating, transport, insurance, etc. for myself and my family.

But that is not the point I am making. My point is that everybody assumes that people like me are rolling in it and I am saying that we are not, and that there is very little room for us to be squeezed further.

You are on 75k+ and even in a better position if your partner is working.

If your bills come to 80% before the recent levies, you are clearly living beyond your means.

Hiding your stats of your outgoings and then moaning here about been 'most of us don't have that much at all' is absolute ballax as you have not got a leg to stand on for your lifestyle.

Permabear

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deadhead13

donegalfella wrote: »

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I just thought for future reference when you refer to libertarians as "we", it would be useful to have a ball park figure of how many people "we" is in an Irish context. Maybe there has been a groundswell in support that I was unaware of.

Blangis

gurramok wrote: »

If your bills come to 80% before the recent levies, you are clearly living beyond your means.

That's some strange reckonin' you done there. You must be using the new maths, where 80% is more than 100%.

AARRRGH

donegalfella wrote: »

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I did say realistic.

Yes, in an ideal situation our Government would have massive balls, but it doesn't, and judging by the current state of Irish politics, never will!

elshambo

Blangis wrote: »

I would like to live in a society where nobody is physically or mentally disabled, and where there aren't any scroungers.

So
How do you think we should create a society where no one is physically or mentally disabled?


Stay Classy!

cavedave

Well how many votes do libertarian parties get? PD's were probably closest to one in Ireland and they died. Maybe they died because they were not libertarian though. Ive seen figures that say 10% of Americans are libertarian leaning. I would guess its about 5% of Irish people.

By their nature governments want to govern. This means a gradual expansion of their power. Even non libertarians might consider it useful for someone to be asking 'why?' whenever new demands for increased taxes or controls come along.

gurramok

Blangis wrote: »

That's some strange reckonin' you done there. You must be using the new maths, where 80% is more than 100%.

Very pedantic. A mortgage is a bill as well.

You stated the following:

Before the current levies, my mortgage and other household bills and so on consumed 80% of my take home pay.

And then went on a rant about anyone earning below you is doing well while you struggle.

Tell us what those bills are and what the mortgage payment is as a % of salary. What are you hiding?

You never even stated if your household is a dual income one or not and you want sympathy on imaginary figures?:rolleyes:

bullpost

Blangis wrote: »

Aside from my parents, all of the above were paid for the contributions they made to my life. My parents chose to provide for me of their own free will. Once I reached adulthood, they stopped, and they would be horrified if I asked them to resume.

I think part of the problem is we now have a generation of middle-class people who had expectations of a lifestyle similar to their parents i.e. good incomes and nice big houses in leafy middle class estates. Due to the boom and now crash this lifestlye is beyond them.

Blangis

gurramok wrote: »

Tell us what those bills are and what the mortgage payment is as a % of salary. What are you hiding?

You never even stated if your household is a dual income one or not and you want sympathy on imaginary figures?:rolleyes:

I am not going to itemise my monthly spending for you. This does not mean that I am lying about my situation, or conveniently leaving out a load of luxuries. I will say it again: the money I make is enough for myself and my family to live a modest lifestyle. Everybody's assumption that people like me are living high on the hog is incorrect.

What I am saying is that we are the geese that lay the golden eggs in this country, and that we are not in the best of health at the moment.

Permabear

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elshambo

Blangis wrote: »

What I am saying is that we are the geese that lay the golden eggs in this country, and that we are not in the best of health at the moment.

Are you one of them golden egg laying geese always wanting to live in the big house they couldnt afford but assumed that someone of their station should have or one who drives a cheap car, lives in a modest CHEAP house and actually has something to show for their labours at the end of the month

Most Millionares ive known/met over the years lived within their means while getting the money and were so comfortable with themselves that they never felt the need to over indulge when they got there!

They always tend(ed) to laugh at people who struggle to live on twice the average wage:eek:

deadhead13

donegalfella wrote: »

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Fair enough. I was just curious.

AARRRGH

bullpost wrote: »

I think part of the problem is we now have a generation of middle-class people who had expectations of a lifestyle similar to their parents i.e. good incomes and nice big houses in leafy middle class estates. Due to the boom and now crash this lifestlye is beyond them.

I think it's worse. They want what their parents had AND a sex in the city lifestyle, e.g. designer clothes, cocktails, etc. a few times per month.

shinyshoes

Extracted from the Irish Independent 15/04/2009



What a country…

I recently had a long conversation with a friend of mine who lost his job.
He was in a reasonably good job and after a little bit of overtime was earning a gross salary of €35,000 per year.

So I asked him the obvious question of how he was going to cope now with four children to feed and, I have to be honest, the answer startled me.

He was actually a lot better off and now in a position to go out golfing every day while his children are at school.

Frankly, I did not believe him until I sat down and did the sums. On a salary of €35,000, his annual net income after the mini Budget was €28,854, after all deductions.

Now he is on the supplementary welfare allowance which -- with a wife and four children -- gives you €443.90 per week, or €23,083 annually.

As he also has a mortgage, he is entitled to mortgage interest supplement which pays all the interest on your mortgage. In his case, this was €1,200 per month of his €1,500 mortgage, or €14,400 per annum.

He is also entitled to back-to-school and footwear payment of €905 per year for four children, a medical card which is worth, on average, say €500 per year (probably more) and a heating supplement which I cannot quantify.

In total, he now has tax-free income of €38,888, an increase in his net income of €10,034 per year for working on his golf handicap.

Based on the calculations after the mini-Budget, you would need to earn more than €47,000 per year if you have four children to justify continuing to work.

This is even before taking into account the costs of working, such as petrol, car maintenance, tolls, lunches and so on.

Now in any civilised society, and especially in a society in a deep recession with a huge welfare bill, surely the government must give people an incentive to go out and work

Making the child benefit taxable or means tested later this year is just going to make the situation worse and encourage more people to give up work and rely on the State to live.

It could even drive our small economy to collapse as the welfare bill gets bigger and bigger as more people, including myself, ask: why should I bother to go out to work when it is basically costing me money to work?

Unless something radically changes, I will be joining my mate on the golf course very soon.

gerry28

Hi OP,

I would consider myself to be among the working poor. My take home pay is €460 (now) per week and I have to pay maintenance, mortgage, car loan and bills out of that.

I was hit for the 2% income levy, 5.5% pension levy and the health levy. So i'd estimate I may be down to €445 or less per week after may 1st.

gurramok

Blangis wrote: »

I am not going to itemise my monthly spending for you. This does not mean that I am lying about my situation, or conveniently leaving out a load of luxuries. I will say it again: the money I make is enough for myself and my family to live a modest lifestyle. Everybody's assumption that people like me are living high on the hog is incorrect.

Why not?

Forking out 80% of your wage of 75k+ on a mortgage and bills suggests strongly that you have a very good lifestyle over poorer sections on society who don't even earn half what you get.

So stop being dishonest and state your case. You won't even say what % your take home pay is going on a mortgage nor what other bills like car loans, personal loans, credit cards as well the the usual neccessities that you have.

Its very easy to get by on 75k+.

Blangis wrote: »

What I am saying is that we are the geese that lay the golden eggs in this country, and that we are not in the best of health at the moment.

Whose we?

On 75k+, ye are doing very well. In the top 33% or is it 20% of earners. Anyhow, the majority do not earn remotely near what you earn and yet you moan how life hard is.

You take home €4000 per month(http://www.taxcalc.eu/)and you claim to be struggling.
You started this thread so lets have the real reasons why you are struggling.

Soldie

gurramok wrote: »

you are clearly living beyond your means.

With respect, that is nobody's business but the OP's.

weiss

The point was that if the OP is struggling on 75k+ per year, OP must be living beyond means.

i'm private sector worker, no pension, living in rented accomodation and probably won't own a home or make money off other property.

i'm tired listening to these guys on big money whinging about how hard their lives are..

Permabear

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Permabear

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