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How poor are the poor, really?
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By the way, if you're an alcoholic and depressed (as a result of drinking), you would qualify for disability benefit.
Now forgive me for saying, but I don't see how a choice to drink is a disability.
And if its a "disease" like many claim, why aren't monkeys drinking dutch gold and smoking grass all day watching tv or playing the xbox?
I doubt many alcoholics with depression and on disability are living the high life. I'd guess you don't know too much about the subject.
Back to the money... €75,000 should be a fairly livable wage. I'd love to be earning half of it.0 -
This thread is very interesting,I think we need discussions like this to have intelligent debates about the current economic climate.I have limited knowledge about what folks take home pay are, but my 2 cents are
_We all benefitted from the boom that occured in the last 10 years in Ireland either directly or otherwise.
-For anyone to be on the 4% levy bracket then you feel the emergency budget a lot but you could help yourself by decreasing your expenditures( a lot of what we spend our money on are things that are actually not necessary) I fall into the same bracket and I have since curtailed a lot of my luxuries (its a recession remember) We are lucky to have a mortgage ,a lot of people would love to be in our shoes and do not have the same opportunity.
_ I read the Golf playing Dad on welfare in the Irish Independent and I think a lot of it was made up.There is absolutely no way he could earn up to that amount,thank goodness we have the internet at low cost ( or else you wouldn't be reading this) Go to www.welfare.ie and find the facts yourselves.I have a friend who lost his job a couple of years ago ,he is married with 5 kids and was earning €40000 before he was made redundant 2 years ago while he was living in a council house (thankfully).Now he gets €460 a week for the whole family from Social welfare and because he can't complain loudly ,his rent has been increased since the budget to about €100 a week leaving him with 6 mouths to feed with €360 a week with shopping ,bills ,transport.The early childcare has affected 2 of his kids ,so less income.
_I am sick and tired of the crap about Ireland having higher welfare benefits than the UK, thats ludicurous .Nominally in monetary terms,Ireland pays better but if we consider and analyse this holistically it is entirely not true that Ireland pays better than its european counterparts.The easiest example is the UK where if you consider my friend above,he would get £ 320 in the Uk for his family size and pay no cent(penny) towards housing and get free milk for his kids till they are 5 years old,the cost of living is also considerably lower in the UK and transport costs is even lower and far better infrastructural facilities.In terms of health,it is totally free till they are 16 irrespective of his income.
Essentially,I think everyone should tighten their belts and stop comparing themselves to the 3rd party.Most of us earned a lot in the boom years but was blasted on unnecessities and luxuries(wants and not needs).The world has changed ,we need to follow suit.0 -
As a side note, since there is a back to work allowance, i see no reason for long term unemployed to continue using the excuse that minimum wage doesn't pay to work, since they would be allowed to keep 100% of their dole for the first year (tax free of course) and still receive a wage.
Some people are simply taking the p1ss out of the system.
Information is POWER...If you were genuinely concerned or informed you would have noticed that was also scrapped in the budget.No more back to employment.0 -
For the sake of stopping the argument, let's assume the OP is separated, with a new family, and is now supporting two families and two houses. It doesn't really matter, though if you really want to get into it, let's say that his old family gets 20k a year, and his current family is now living on a more modest (but not poverty-stricken) income of 55,000 a year. He will feel the pinch a bit more than if he was earning a straight 75k, as he's essentially paying these additional taxes without getting the additional cash. Let's just ignore the OP's personal financial situation.
I think the definition of "poor" is one that Ireland struggles with. There are facts and figures and lines drawn in the sand, but those of us in the middle classes don't quite understand what it means to be poor.
In Ireland poverty rarely means being homeless, having to steal food, going barefoot, dressing in rags - we have a social welfare system precisely to try to avoid this, and in most cases it works.
Middle class families feel the pinch of school fees, creche fees, child-minding costs - all these things are expensive, but they are optional. While most schools these days expect an annual contribution from parents, some people chose to send their children to fee-paying schools, which range from 3000 to 12000 a year - that's before the voluntary contributions, uniforms, books, exams etc. Poor people will never even have considered sending their child to a fee-paying school - the child will go to the closest school possible.
Poor families do not "need" a second car (with associated petrol, insurance, tax etc) for dropping children to and from schools miles away. The kids walk, or get the bus.
Middle class people don't think very hard, if at all, about spending 3 euros on a coffee. Poor people will drink their coffee at home, or go somewhere cheaper. When's the last time you saw someone standing in the dole queue sipping a latte?
The middle classes may pride themselves on their thrift by shopping at Lidl - exclaiming loudly how much cheaper the brie is than in Sheridan's, and you'd barely notice the difference. Poor people are buying the 20 pack of chicken wings wondering if they can make them stretch to a second day.
Poverty is replacing your car annually, not to keep up with the neighbours, but because you buy a car for 500 euros that's already falling to bits, then repeat the same again. You'd love to buy a really good car for 3-4000 which wouldn't give you any trouble, but you can't save for that, and no-one will give you a loan. You'd take the bus, but your cleaning job out in Mulhuddart isn't accessible by public transport at 6am.
As a poor person, you scan the menu as you walk past L'Ecrivain on the way to your anniversary special dinner somewhere in town that's doing an early bird special - 17 euros for two courses for two with a bottle of wine thrown in.
The middle classes complain about the price of a night out with friends, and how they can only afford to do it once a month tops - by the time you get a taxi in and out of town, buy a few rounds and stop at the chipper on the way home suddenly 80 quid is gone. Poor people don't have 80 euro to start with, and certainly aren't spending any of it on taxis. They'll walk to the local and back.
Both groups might still be living within their means, but their expectations are different. Until the middle classes can examine their expenditure with unbiased eyes I'm not entirely sure that they'll ever "get" poverty.0 -
We all benefitted from the boom that occured in the last 10 years in Ireland either directly or otherwise.
I don't think so. If anything, the gap between rich and poor (yes, this part of society does exist, despite the OP's best efforts to convince people otherwise) between now and before has even lengthened after the 'Celtic Tiger'.
I think a lot of people were just afraid to mention how struggling they were, because the media and everyone really bought into this perception that everyone is now wealthy and noone will have to suffer economic hardship again.(!) It was a bubble waiting to be burst (just like the property market coincidentally)0 -
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For the sake of stopping the argument, let's assume the OP is separated, with a new family, and is now supporting two families and two houses. It doesn't really matter, though if you really want to get into it, let's say that his old family gets 20k a year, and his current family is now living on a more modest (but not poverty-stricken) income of 55,000 a year. He will feel the pinch a bit more than if he was earning a straight 75k, as he's essentially paying these additional taxes without getting the additional cash. Let's just ignore the OP's personal financial situation.
I think the definition of "poor" is one that Ireland struggles with. There are facts and figures and lines drawn in the sand, but those of us in the middle classes don't quite understand what it means to be poor.
In Ireland poverty rarely means being homeless, having to steal food, going barefoot, dressing in rags - we have a social welfare system precisely to try to avoid this, and in most cases it works.
Middle class families feel the pinch of school fees, creche fees, child-minding costs - all these things are expensive, but they are optional. While most schools these days expect an annual contribution from parents, some people chose to send their children to fee-paying schools, which range from 3000 to 12000 a year - that's before the voluntary contributions, uniforms, books, exams etc. Poor people will never even have considered sending their child to a fee-paying school - the child will go to the closest school possible.
Poor families do not "need" a second car (with associated petrol, insurance, tax etc) for dropping children to and from schools miles away. The kids walk, or get the bus.
Middle class people don't think very hard, if at all, about spending 3 euros on a coffee. Poor people will drink their coffee at home, or go somewhere cheaper. When's the last time you saw someone standing in the dole queue sipping a latte?
The middle classes may pride themselves on their thrift by shopping at Lidl - exclaiming loudly how much cheaper the brie is than in Sheridan's, and you'd barely notice the difference. Poor people are buying the 20 pack of chicken wings wondering if they can make them stretch to a second day.
Poverty is replacing your car annually, not to keep up with the neighbours, but because you buy a car for 500 euros that's already falling to bits, then repeat the same again. You'd love to buy a really good car for 3-4000 which wouldn't give you any trouble, but you can't save for that, and no-one will give you a loan. You'd take the bus, but your cleaning job out in Mulhuddart isn't accessible by public transport at 6am.
As a poor person, you scan the menu as you walk past L'Ecrivain on the way to your anniversary special dinner somewhere in town that's doing an early bird special - 17 euros for two courses for two with a bottle of wine thrown in.
The middle classes complain about the price of a night out with friends, and how they can only afford to do it once a month tops - by the time you get a taxi in and out of town, buy a few rounds and stop at the chipper on the way home suddenly 80 quid is gone. Poor people don't have 80 euro to start with, and certainly aren't spending any of it on taxis. They'll walk to the local and back.
Both groups might still be living within their means, but their expectations are different. Until the middle classes can examine their expenditure with unbiased eyes I'm not entirely sure that they'll ever "get" poverty.
There are some fair points in what you are saying, but my original point was that while there are some people in the above situation, I don't believe that there are all that many.
I think that the most poor / working class people have enough money to smoke 20 cigarettes a day, and go to the pub and the bookies, and subscribe to Sky Sports, and buy tabloids every day, and drape their houses in lights every Christmas. And that most of them have nicer cars than I do, and they have flat screen tvs and the latest phones and I reckon that they manage to go away to the Costa del Sol at least once a year as well.
I also think that he vast majority of working class people, if they won the lotto tomorrow, would still send their children to the nearest free school and not bat an eyelid if they left at fifteen without having learned how to read, write, or perform basic arithmetic properly. And they would choose chips and chicken wings over brie from Sheridans and dinner in L'Ecrivain ten times out of ten.
I think that, despite all of the hand-wringing, we need to recognise that working class people in Ireland are completely different to middle class people. They have a totally different culture, different tastes, and different expectations. We might look at their lives and think: Oh how wretched! But they like the way they live.
My standard of living is not higher than theirs, it is just different. I might read the Irish Times instead of the Sun and eat Parma ham and mozzarella instead of Denny waifos and easi singles, but that is simply a question of taste. My house is not bigger than theirs, it is just situated in a middle class area.
And my original point is that their standard of living is pretty much secure, while my standard of living is very precarious. All it takes is for the tax rate, or the ECB rate, to go up a few percent and I totally lose my standard of living, while almost nothing can threaten theirs.
I am sure that several posters on this thread would like to see nothing better than for me to lose my house, my credit rating, and my ability to buy another house for the next seven years. It is as if I committed a crime by buying a house during the boom and I deserve to be punished for it. So what is the crime? Is it wanting to bring up a family in a house that I own and have the freedom to do what I want, with rather than a rented place which we can be kicked out of at a month's notice? Is it not wanting to commute for hours and hours every day? Is it wanting to have my kids near good schools and amenities? Is it wanting to live somewhere relatively safe and pleasant?
Or is it that I was supposed to leave a large amount in reserve just in case the government needed to take it off me and give it to the deserving poor? I suspect this is the real reason for the venom directed against people like me, and this is the point I came here to make.
I also disagree with a point in the above post which seems to suggest that it is optional for middle class people to bring their children up to be middle class too. If we don't do this, and don't pay for private schools, trips abroad, college, sports and so on, then who is going to carry everyone else in the country in thirty years' time?0 -
Extracted from the Irish Independent 15/04/2009
What a country…
I recently had a long conversation with a friend of mine who lost his job.
He was in a reasonably good job and after a little bit of overtime was
earning a gross salary of €35,000 per year.
So I asked him the obvious question of how he was going to cope now with
four children to feed and, I have to be honest, the answer startled me.
He was actually a lot better off and now in a position to go out golfing
every day while his children are at school.
Frankly, I did not believe him until I sat down and did the sums. On a
salary of €35,000, his annual net income after the mini Budget was €28,854,
after all deductions.
Now he is on the supplementary welfare allowance which -- with a wife and
four children -- gives you €443.90 per week, or €23,083 annually.
As he also has a mortgage, he is entitled to mortgage interest supplement
which pays all the interest on your mortgage. In his case, this was €1,200
per month of his €1,500 mortgage, or €14,400 per annum.
He is also entitled to back-to-school and footwear payment of €905 per year
for four children, a medical card which is worth, on average, say €500 per
year (probably more) and a heating supplement which I cannot quantify.
In total, he now has tax-free income of €38,888, an increase in his net
income of €10,034 per year for working on his golf handicap.
Based on the calculations after the mini-Budget, you would need to earn
more than €47,000 per year if you have four children to justify continuing
to work.
This is even before taking into account the costs of working, such as
petrol, car maintenance, tolls, lunches and so on.
Now in any civilised society, and especially in a society in a deep
recession with a huge welfare bill, surely the government must give people
an incentive to go out and work
Making the child benefit taxable or means tested later this year is just
going to make the situation worse and encourage more people to give up work
and rely on the State to live.
It could even drive our small economy to collapse as the welfare bill gets
bigger and bigger as more people, including myself, ask: why should I
bother to go out to work when it is basically costing me money to work?
Unless something radically changes, I will be joining my mate on the golf
course very soon.
Andy McNamara
Drogheda, Co Louth < http://www.independent.ie/topics/County+Louth >
That's quite simply, bollox
35,000 @20% = 7,000
Less married Credit 3660
PAYE Credit 1830
5490
Tax 1210
Health Levy @4%, in fact these rates are composite rates until the end of 09 so it's not that high. =1400
Income Levy @2% = 700
Total Tax Bill 3610
Net Pay €31,390. Plus he could easily avail of additional credits like service charges, medical expenses etc.
Social welfare is here:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/supplementary-welfare-schemes/supplementary_welfare_allow
Applicant €204.3
Wife €135.60
4 Kids at €26 each
Total 419.90 X 52 is €21, 834.8 per annum
Mortgage Interest is only short term on the interest not on the capital. You will also be oblidged to make contributions- the minimum being €24.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/supplementary-welfare-schemes/mortgage_interest_supplement. The example of €1200 off a €1500 mortgage is not only laughable but would not be maintained for any length of time. Indeed with interest rates around 1.5% this means he has a home worth €1,000,000 on a 35K mortgage!
So, lets say he's is getting such a crazy amount
weekly income €419.90
Less minimum contributions €24, less the rest of the INTEREST portion only of the mortgage €75, less the CAPITAL, on a mortgage that has interest of €1500 a month capital is going to be much much higher!
Leaves him with net weekly income of buttons.
Andy McNamra is not only annoying but his is mis-informed- I suggest he go join a dole queue, wait 6 weeks odd on NO income to be assessed and another 3 months to have your payments processed.
€905 for 4 kids, for uniforms, books, buses, shoes, bags, biros and god knows what else.
By the way- well done on the bigoted sterotying. You live in a three bed house in a nice suburb- you CHOSE to take out a mortgage that you can barely afford. Don't go blaming everyone else for YOUR choices pal.0 -
Blangis,
You haven't got the first idea what you're talking about when it comes to the working class, and you even admit that in your post when you say
"working class people in Ireland are completely different to middle class people. They have a totally different culture, different tastes, and different expectations"
and yet you feel qualified to extroplate what they are or aren't happy with or willing to do to improve their lot in life.
Being quite frank, your entire post screams of misguided snobbery as if you somehow feel that you're above them in some way. So let me clear that up for you, you're not, your opinions and thoughts are just so far up your own ass you can't tell the difference anymore.
The simple fact is that we (i.e. "middle-class" which is rubbish anyway) are best in a position to take this pain and although some might prefer not to think about it the vast majority of the worlds population is far more worse off than we are. People just need to cop on to the bigger picture and get rid of the me fein attitude.0 -
Middle class people don't think very hard, if at all, about spending 3 euros on a coffee. Poor people will drink their coffee at home, or go somewhere cheaper. When's the last time you saw someone standing in the dole queue sipping a latte?
Easy enough to handle a latte, or even l'Ecrivan on the dole as it happens. For someone in the middle classes to be thrown on the dole it can mean financial ruin - i.e. the loss of a house. For an 18 year old living with a few other dole heads life is rosier that the "middle classes".
Lets compare 4 boyos at 18 , on the dole, living together with rent relief paying their rent. I take 4 people to simulate a 4 persion family/houshold.
The per capita income of the 4 person dole household is 800 per week, or 40K a year after housing ( rent allowance), and tax ( none).
Assuming a mortgage of about 1,200 a month - which is low - the post tax income of the 4 person working family needs to be about 54K to get that per capita. Ignoring savings, and work related travel, the pre tax income there has to be about 75K.
With savings, and travel ( assume a Dublin yearly dart ticket), they may need about 85K
Depends on if they are saving for College, or not.
In terms on Net Worth. The dole-head - if he is not saving or investing his surplus will be at zero net worth. The middle class family, if young, will be in negative equity. So the middle class is poorer there, too.
A lot of this depends on the mortgage costs and the size of the family. Older earners will have existing savings, a lower mortgage, and positive equity in the house. However someone in a 75K a year houshold, could well be poorer, in per capita income than the dolers.
Still, though, the idea that having 204 a week, no real outgoings, no need to save, is "poor" is such nonsense it is laughable. I created a meal for 3 people yesterday for about £12. Mayb thats 20 euro in Ireland.
Dole heads can learn to cook at home, eat meat every day, and afford their latte no bother. They can go to restaurants 2-3 timea a week - what are they saving for? It's the workers you have to worry about.0 -
Mr. Incognito wrote: »you CHOSE to take out a mortgage that you can barely afford. Don't go blaming everyone else for YOUR choices pal.
Of course I chose it; I never implied that I was pressganged into it. I even outlined the reasons for my choice above, and nowhere did I blame anyone else for them.
All I have been saying here is that the assumption that I, and people like me, have unlimited capacity to help out the rest of the country is incorrect. I, and people like me, are much more stretched than people assume.
Can we please move on from poring over the minutiae of my personal circumstances now? I only mentioned myself as a proxy for the large numbers of other people in the exact same situation.0 -
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Blangis is sympthomatic of the real situation in Ireland. We have a rich - the bankers etc. - a Middle class with established equity in the millionaire suburbs. Mostly in their 50's. Mortgage paid off, or nearly.
And the working poor. Some in big houses.0 -
And my original point is that their standard of living is pretty much secure, while my standard of living is very precarious. All it takes is for the tax rate, or the ECB rate, to go up a few percent and I totally lose my standard of living, while almost nothing can threaten theirs.
That simply means you ARE living beyond your means!
Its pretty simple maths, maths that even yer average dole bag could manage :eek:I think that, despite all of the hand-wringing, we need to recognise that working class people in Ireland are completely different to middle class people. They have a totally different culture, different tastes, and different expectations. We might look at their lives and think: Oh how wretched! But they like the way they live.
The state is less than 100 years old
We have had money for less than 20
The "middle classes" are to a large extent, a figment of their own imagination!0 -
All I have been saying here is that the assumption that I, and people like me, have unlimited capacity to help out the rest of the country is incorrect. I, and people like me, are much more stretched than people assume.
No one is saying you have or should have an unlimited capacity to help out the country. I'm not sure if you know this, but people earning less then you also have to pay tax and a levy. Yes, they might pay slightly less than you, but that's because you earn a lot more than them.
So instead of feeling sorry for yourself, realise you earn more money than most people in Ireland, so you should have more disposable income that most people in Ireland.
The fact that you made a number of poor financial decisions (e.g. bought a home you cannot afford) is the reason for your problem, not the levy.
Stop trying to blame someone else for your mistakes. Take personal responsibility. The sooner you do that the sooner you'll be able to start digging yourself out of your current situation.0 -
The "middle classes" are to a large extent, a figment of their own imagination!
Not at all. in the 19th century the middle class were lawyers, doctors, dentists, vicars ( in England), some succesful businessmen, high ranking state employees.
they still exist in Ireland, vicars excepted.
eveeybody else is pretty much a version of the working classes.0 -
Blangis wrote:I am sure that several posters on this thread would like to see nothing better than for me to lose my house, my credit rating, and my ability to buy another house for the next seven years. It is as if I committed a crime by buying a house during the boom and I deserve to be punished for it. So what is the crime? Is it wanting to bring up a family in a house that I own and have the freedom to do what I want, with rather than a rented place which we can be kicked out of at a month's notice? Is it not wanting to commute for hours and hours every day? Is it wanting to have my kids near good schools and amenities? Is it wanting to live somewhere relatively safe and pleasant?
Talk about jumping to conclusions. There is no shame in renting, it could of saved you a fortune.
You see, these 'middle class' types you describe are servicing a big debt on a big house is a nice suburb and yet will not admit any of their reckless decisions that put them there in the first place.
You're wage(75k+) is not the issue and neither are the tax rises. The issue is that you overextended yourself and whats worse is that you cannot see it.0 -
Stop trying to blame someone else for your mistakes. Take personal responsibility. The sooner you do that the sooner you'll be able to start digging yourself out of your current situation.
He was talking in general about people in his position - which I am not by the way - and the financial scrapes they are in. Its a pity he didnt write a general post in the original post.0 -
Not at all. in the 19th century the middle class were lawyers, doctors, dentists, vicars ( in England), some succesful businessmen, high ranking state employees.
they still exist in Ireland, vicars excepted.
everybody else is pretty much a version of the working classes.
OOH really, i thought it was a term that was an Irish invention:rolleyes:
er as in:
"Clerical and Medical"!?
The point is:eek: that vast sums of people in this country call themselves the middle classes, when they are clearly not!
Stuff bought on credit is still stuff bought on credit weather it be the HP or the 125% morgage!0 -
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Btw, I think the reason so many people are getting annoyed/whatever at this topic is becuase it is the classic example of how out of touch with reality many Irish people are.
"I only earn 75k+ a year, boo hoo".
It's ridiculous!0 -
No one is saying you have or should have an unlimited capacity to help out the country. I'm not sure if you know this, but people earning less then you also have to pay tax and a levy. Yes, they might pay slightly less than you, but that's because you earn a lot more than them.
So instead of feeling sorry for yourself, realise you earn more money than most people in Ireland, so you should have more disposable income that most people in Ireland.
The fact that you made a number of poor financial decisions (e.g. bought a home you cannot afford) is the reason for your problem, not the levy.
Stop trying to blame someone else for your mistakes. Take personal responsibility. The sooner you do that the sooner you'll be able to start digging yourself out of your current situation.
What does it take to move on from discussing my personal circumstances? I bought a house that I can afford; I can afford it now, and I will always be able to afford to pay my mortgage, as I will do whatever it takes, and make whatever sacrifices are necessary in order to continue to pay it.
This thread is not about me!!!!
It is about the fact that there is a section of the population that is always expected to take the lion's share of the pain whenever it is required.
It is about the fact that the thinking behind this seems to be that these people are living lives of such ease and plenty that the only impact that increasing taxes will have is to cause them to switch from Cristal to Moet, while anyone else would be plunged into third world levels of starvation and misery.0 -
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Btw, I think the reason so many people are getting annoyed/whatever at this topic is becuase it is the classic example of how out of touch with reality many Irish people are.
"I only earn 75k+ a year, boo hoo".
It's ridiculous!
"And i bought a house i clearly could not afford at the top of the market because i assumed it would get higher in price
Its its its the fault of the unemployed, dirty spongers with their chedder cheese and sandwitch loaf"
SUCK IT UP!
I was moving to London to start my own business when the crash came, im now in my parents spare room, in a home town that bores me to tears
Deal with it!0 -
@Blangis:
I think you need to re-read your first post. You clearly cannot afford your current lifestyle. You are barely surviving month to month.
But I am willing to move on.
If you read what the new budget introduced, you will see everyone has had to take some pain. I am losing a few hundred per month. Everyone is losing money.
I don't see the point in playing the 'victim'. We are all sharing a bit of pain, but none of us are victims.0 -
The point is that vast sums of people in this country call themselves the middle classes, when they are clearly not!
yeah, I think all graduates think they are middle classes.
My definition would be
1) The rich. Very succesful buisness men, bankers etc.
2) The middle classes. Doctors, consultants, people with no chance of losing their jobs and high pay in the CS or PS.
3) The skilled working classes: fitters, accountants, IT workers, plumbers etc.
4) I dont really go with semi-skilled.
5) the unskilled.
about 85% working class.0 -
Dole heads can learn to cook at home, eat meat every day, and afford their latte no bother. They can go to restaurants 2-3 timea a week - what are they saving for? It's the workers you have to worry about.
Your scenario is not representative of the positions of the vast majority of people on the dole. You create an image of a typical person on the dole, based on some scumbag spongers that you may have encountered in the past. Unemployment in Ireland has jumped from 4% to 11% in the last 18 months. 7% of Irelands working population who have recently been made redundant, plus the many thousands due to join them, could hardly be classified as "dole heads"?
If the OP were made redundant in the morning (but I strongly suspect that he's in a secure guaranteed job), then he too would be a "dole head". Given his apparent high monthly outlay, I think he'd be glad to take whatever assistance is on offer. He would have an immediate and painful answer the question he posed at the top of this thread.0 -
We keep hearing how they are struggling and if the OP is a classic example as he says of a section of that population, then what are the costs that are preventing them to have a 'middle class' lifestyle and making them struggle on a monthly basis?
Lets take a couple earning 75k+ each. I'd like to hear what the expenses are that makes times so tough as i cannot certainly see it, can someone outline these as so far we have had nothing to explain it properly?0 -
yeah, I think all graduates think they are middle classes.
My definition would be
1) The rich. Very succesful buisness men, bankers etc.
2) The middle classes. Doctors, consultants, people with no chance of losing their jobs and high pay in the CS or PS.
3) The skilled working classes: fitters, accountants, IT workers, plumbers etc.
4) I dont really go with semi-skilled.
5) the unskilled.
about 85% working class.
that would the standard or at least was the standard defination:D
In this country IT workers dont see themselves as a trade, they see themselves as middle class(been their, laughed at that, got out before the crash) and i count people who work in call centres as people in IT who think they are middle class:o:o:o:confused:
Accountants the same, basically lots of people who work in offices have ideas about themselves that a personal audit would disagree with!0 -
Unemployment in Ireland has jumped from 4% to 11% in the last 18 months. 7% of Irelands working population who have recently been made redundant, plus the many thousands due to join them, could hardly be classified as "dole heads"?
No. Here is what I believe.
At 18 you get £45 a week. About the same as the English.
At 35, you get 300-400 euro a week ( and additions for family etc.) and the banks have to give you time off on the mortgage.
the longer you work, the more you get.0 -
There are definitions of social class used by social scientists which are more up-to-date than the 19th century model referred to by asdasd. They are briefly summarised at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRS_social_grade .0
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There are definitions of social class used by social scientists which are more up-to-date than the 19th century model referred to by asdasd. They are briefly summarised at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRS_social_grade .
I am aware of those distinctions and I think them useless. Take B, Middle Class
Intermediate managerial, administrative or professional
rubbish. I see most office workers as working class, working for the man, can be fired, can own a 2up-2down in a mediocre part of town at best. There is no comparison between 40K and 220K - a consultants salary.0 -
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In Ireland, your 'class' is based on your accent.
Someone with a strong Dublin accent will never be considered 'middle class'. Just like someone with a D4 accent will never be considered 'working class'.
For example, I am from Blackrock in Dublin. I would be fairly 'well spoken', as in, I speak clearly and properly. It wouldn't matter if I was on the dole for the rest of my life, if you met me on the street, because I dress quite well and speak quite well, you would assume I am 'middle class'. Even if I told you I am on the dole, I would still be a 'middle class' person on the dole.0
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