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How poor are the poor, really?
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1) I know someone n 50K a year who bought in Tyrelstown rather than rent. What class are they in?
2) You are almost certainly single, or unmarried at least. When people get married they want a place where they cant actually be kicked out with a month's notice and can actually do stuff with the place: repaint, redo the kitchen etc. This is natural.
i stayed out of the market, but I am single and a months notice means I can go find a nicer place, not the uprooting of a family. It is understandable that people bought. I am sure that many people who bought were as appalled at the price as you are.
There's no doubt we need better regulation of the renting sector but at the end of the day.
which will affect kids more their parents being drowned in up tp 40 years of crippling debt up to their eyes in negative equity, or being able to lead the lifestyle they wish but maybe having to move at some point if the land lord gives you your notice, untill you can comfortably afford a home of your own?
your not forced to have kids the day after you get married or to buy a home, there's alternatives.
It's not a very tough decision really.0 -
which will affect kids more their parents being drowned in up tp 40 years of crippling debt up to their eyes in negative equity, or being able to lead the lifestyle they wish but maybe having to move at some point if the land lord gives you your notice, untill you can comfortably afford a home of your own?
your not forced to have kids the day after you get married or to buy a home, there's alternatives.
The natural desire to nest overrode all that.
In any case given that housing: rent or mortgages, are more expensive now than historically the main point of this thread - that the poor are not so poor, and the higher income groups are not so rich.0 -
The natural desire to nest overrode all that.
In any case given that housing: rent or mortgages, are more expensive now than historically the main point of this thread - that the poor are not so poor, and the higher income groups are not so rich.
Ah come on asdasd.
Renting for a couple can be on average from 500-750 each for a decent sized gaff in Dublin and that was the case in 2006. It was mortgages that got out ludricously of control.
A few hundred thousand foreigners came to our shores, some with families and manage to rent successfully, whats the difference for Irish people?0 -
This response is a perfect example of the type of thinking that I disagree with. Basically, you are saying that 30,000 (or whatever arbitrary amount)is enough for anyone to spend on mortgage and household expenses, regardless of what they earn, or what type of standards they have.
Blangis you may have noticed from a previous thread that I don't even earn €30,000 a year let alone pay it out in mortgage and bills. I used 30K as an illustration.
I am surviving on €28,000 a year with mortgage, car, bills etc. Its manageable, but I couldn't possibly suffer another hit from the government. So they have to target people like you on €75,000.
For me to lose anymore money could sink me, for you to lose anymore prob wouldn't sink you but you may have to cut back on your luxuries.
In these critical times the government don't want people losing their homes. I wouldn't imagine they are too concerned about well paid people having to cut back on their high standards and luxuries though and thats the difference.0 -
Blangis you may have noticed from a previous thread that I don't even earn €30,000 a year let alone pay it out in mortgage and bills. I used 30K as an illustration.
I am surviving on €28,000 a year with mortgage, car, bills etc. Its manageable, but I couldn't possibly suffer another hit from the government. So they have to target people like you on €75,000.
For me to lose anymore money could sink me, for you to lose anymore prob wouldn't sink you but you may have to cut back on your luxuries.
In these critical times the government don't want people losing their homes. I wouldn't imagine they are too concerned about well paid people having to cut back on their high standards and luxuries though and thats the difference.
The figures I was using were for illustration. The point is that everyone seems to think that nobody should spend more than a certain amount (and this thread is not about defining that exact amount) per annum, regardless of how much they make. The assumption is that if someone spends more than whatever that amount is, then they must be spending it on luxuries.
I am saying that that is not accurate. The people who are assumed to be living in luxury are not.0 -
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Then what are they spending on it as the figures say otherwise?
They are spending it on accomodation. They want to own houses in nice areas, and they are willing to pay what this costs. Is this news to you? Of course it is not, you just resent it.
In your mind, bright people should study, be diligent, work hard consistently, make sacrifices, progress in their careers, get to the point where they are making good livings and are in a position to provide a good life for their families...
... and then decide not to provide a good life for their families.
Instead, they should provide them with the same kind of lives as call centre workers in their 20s, or forklift drivers, or barmen.0 -
They are spending it on accomodation. They want to own houses in nice areas, and they are willing to pay what this costs. Is this news to you? Of course it is not, you just resent it.
How do i resent it?
I resent those that overpaid for a house and then whinge over their bad decisions saying life is tough when in fact they would not know how life is tough when they are really poor.In your mind, bright people should study, be diligent, work hard consistently, make sacrifices, progress in their careers, get to the point where they are making good livings and are in a position to provide a good life for their families...
... and then decide not to provide a good life for their families.
Instead, they should provide them with the same kind of lives as call centre workers in their 20s, or forklift drivers, or barmen.
I was with you on the 1st paragraph until the 2nd. A good life can be provided for a family by not living beyond one's means.
Its called prudence.0 -
How do i resent it?
I resent those that overpaid for a house and then whinge over their bad decisions saying life is tough when in fact they would not know how life is tough when they are really poor.
I was with you on the 1st paragraph until the 2nd. A good life can be provided for a family by not living beyond one's means.
Its called prudence.
So if I make twice as much money as someone else, and I pay twice as much for my house as they do, they are being prudent and I am living beyond my means.
Let's take a semi-skilled guy who works in manufacturing. He buys a 3 bed semi on an estate in Finglas, and the factory he works in is in the neighborhood or a very short commute away. His family and his friends all live in Finglas too, and all do similar jobs and make similar amounts of money. There are free schools in the area for his kids and there are soccer and GAA clubs. There are pubs where he can watch the premiership with his mates, and where there are ballad sessions on Saturday nights. There are shops in the neighborhood that sell the type of goods he and his family like to purchase and consume.
Then let's take a professional who makes a six figure salary. He buys a 3 bed semi in Ranelagh, and works in an office in the city centre that he is able to get to on the Luas. His family and friends all live nearby, and all do similar jobs and make similar amounts of money. There are private schools in the area for his kids and there are tennis, golf and rugby clubs. There are restaurants and bars that suit his tastes in his neighborhood and shops that sell the type of produce he likes to consume.
So, in both cases, we have a person who gets to live among his peers, near his job and in an area which provides the amenities and services that are to his tastes.
So, explain why the guy in Finglas should have a God-given right to spend the money he earns on a lifestyle that suits him down to the ground, but not the guy in Ranelagh.
I have been very forthcoming about my opinions here. I resent having to dig proportionally deeper than other segments of society in this situation, and I resent the assumption that all it means for me is a few less caramel lattes or meals in Guilbaud's - or whatever your stereotype of choice is - while for everyone else it is a matter of life and death.
Why don't you just come out with what you really believe, instead of hiding behind this smokescreen about fiscal prudence? You resent anyone who is better off than you because you are jealous of them.0 -
I think you're being very selective with your examples. It wasn't even possible to rent a house in Maynooth (thats in North Kildare now. Not even Dublin) for that amount.Renting for a couple can be on average from 500-750 each for a decent sized gaff in Dublin and that was the case in 2006. It was mortgages that got out ludricously of control
Are you suggesting Irish people should all muck in and share houses?A few hundred thousand foreigners came to our shores, some with families and manage to rent successfully, whats the difference for Irish people?0 -
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There was another option to 'get value for money' as you put it, it was called renting.
Renting isn't value for money, by the way, and it is far from being prudent in the long run.
In ten years time your monthly rent will be much higher than my mortgage payments, and you will have no assets (all other things being equal).
Or maybe you don't intend to be paying rent in ten years time, and you actually hope to own your own home too? :eek:0 -
So if I make twice as much money as someone else, and I pay twice as much for my house as they do, they are being prudent and I am living beyond my means.
Let's take a semi-skilled guy who works in manufacturing. He buys a 3 bed semi on an estate in Finglas, and the factory he works in is in the neighborhood or a very short commute away. His family and his friends all live in Finglas too, and all do similar jobs and make similar amounts of money. There are free schools in the area for his kids and there are soccer and GAA clubs. There are pubs where he can watch the premiership with his mates, and where there are ballad sessions on Saturday nights. There are shops in the neighborhood that sell the type of goods he and his family like to purchase and consume.
Then let's take a professional who makes a six figure salary. He buys a 3 bed semi in Ranelagh, and works in an office in the city centre that he is able to get to on the Luas. His family and friends all live nearby, and all do similar jobs and make similar amounts of money. There are private schools in the area for his kids and there are tennis, golf and rugby clubs. There are restaurants and bars that suit his tastes in his neighborhood and shops that sell the type of produce he likes to consume.
So, in both cases, we have a person who gets to live among his peers, near his job and in an area which provides the amenities and services that are to his tastes.
So, explain why the guy in Finglas should have a God-given right to spend the money he earns on a lifestyle that suits him down to the ground, but not the guy in Ranelagh.
I have been very forthcoming about my opinions here. I resent having to dig proportionally deeper than other segments of society in this situation, and I resent the assumption that all it means for me is a few less caramel lattes or meals in Guilbaud's - or whatever your stereotype of choice is - while for everyone else it is a matter of life and death.
Why don't you just come out with what you really believe, instead of hiding behind this smokescreen about fiscal prudence? You resent anyone who is better off than you because you are jealous of them.
lol
I've been following this thread with interest and this takes the biscuit.
It's really simple,
Person A earns €75k+ and budgets what they can afford based on a 10-15% swing in disposable income.
Person B earns €75k+ and budgets what they can afford based on their exact earnings.
when we find ourselves in the situation that we are in now, Person A is a little pi$$ed but not really affected. Person B has to rant on the internet because they gave themselves no leeway.0 -
So if I make twice as much money as someone else, and I pay twice as much for my house as they do, they are being prudent and I am living beyond my means.
Let's take a semi-skilled guy who works in manufacturing. He buys a 3 bed semi on an estate in Finglas, and the factory he works in is in the neighborhood or a very short commute away. His family and his friends all live in Finglas too, and all do similar jobs and make similar amounts of money. There are free schools in the area for his kids and there are soccer and GAA clubs. There are pubs where he can watch the premiership with his mates, and where there are ballad sessions on Saturday nights. There are shops in the neighborhood that sell the type of goods he and his family like to purchase and consume.
Then let's take a professional who makes a six figure salary. He buys a 3 bed semi in Ranelagh, and works in an office in the city centre that he is able to get to on the Luas. His family and friends all live nearby, and all do similar jobs and make similar amounts of money. There are private schools in the area for his kids and there are tennis, golf and rugby clubs. There are restaurants and bars that suit his tastes in his neighborhood and shops that sell the type of produce he likes to consume.
So, in both cases, we have a person who gets to live among his peers, near his job and in an area which provides the amenities and services that are to his tastes.
So, explain why the guy in Finglas should have a God-given right to spend the money he earns on a lifestyle that suits him down to the ground, but not the guy in Ranelagh.
I have been very forthcoming about my opinions here. I resent having to dig proportionally deeper than other segments of society in this situation, and I resent the assumption that all it means for me is a few less caramel lattes or meals in Guilbaud's - or whatever your stereotype of choice is - while for everyone else it is a matter of life and death.
Why don't you just come out with what you really believe, instead of hiding behind this smokescreen about fiscal prudence? You resent anyone who is better off than you because you are jealous of them.
Ignoring the last line of vitriol, why doesn't the Rathmines guy buy a gaff in Finglas then?
Whats wrong with Finglas?Renting isn't value for money, by the way, and it is far from being prudent in the long run.
In ten years time your monthly rent will be much higher than my mortgage payments, and you will have no assets (all other things being equal).
Or maybe you don't intend to be paying rent in ten years time, and you actually hope to own your own home too? :eek:
Where did you get that gem from?
As i said earlier, you rent until your target house comes within your means, how hard is that?Serenity Now! wrote: »I think you're being very selective with your examples. It wasn't even possible to rent a house in Maynooth (thats in North Kildare now. Not even Dublin) for that amount.
No, i'm not. Maybe you missed the part- couple. We're not talking about singletons here.
Lots of Dublin places were asking that amount in rent(1000-1500) in 2006 for example
No. Rent, why is this such a taboo then?Are you suggesting Irish people should all muck in and share houses?0 -
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Person A earns €75k+ and budgets what they can afford based on a 10-15% swing in disposable income.
Person B earns €75k+ and budgets what they can afford based on their exact earnings.
And person C earns €40k and budgets what they can afford based on their exact earnings too.
But this is ok because person C is living on bread and water whereas person B is living on champagne and caviar. :rolleyes:0 -
In the light of the subject of this thread i'll just say one thing to start off with.
Low taxes + reduced spending + increased revenue = better state!
I'm totally against the dole where lazy gits get paid for sitting at home and well... being lazy!
You work hard from 9-5, 5 days a week (sometime more) to earn enough to make a decent living when the government comes, digs it hand deep into your pockets, takes away your hard earned income to waste it on the inefficient job it does with all of its "services"! You're working 4 months out of a year just to pay off your government in some sort of a neo-slavery.
This is what the modern economic system is doing. In the words of Ron Paul, its destroying the middle class. While the lower class keeps getting bigger and more lazy with more people getting paid to sit on their lazy asses! While the business class has to deal with major losses due to the government claiming away almost half of its hardwork killing entrepreneurship. This leads to monopolizing of the sectors of economy, leading to significant job losses in the middle class sending them spiraling down into the lower class and completely obliterating the proper free-market system of progress trough fair competition.
And so with the government deciding to only continue with this flawed economic system by taking it a step further by bailing out "selected" failed institutions and increasing taxes further more. This is only the beginning of things to come!!
We thought the financial bubble had burst and we had seen the worst. But by pumping billions of dollars into the economy, all printed out of thin air, spiraling economies further into darker holes of debt, this financial bubble is only getting bigger and when it bursts, thats gonna be the biggest history will ever see.
Then we can forget completely about capitalism. It'll be the socialists dream and Karl Marx's biggest nightmare. The government will have taken total control over all the sectors of businesses and your money. There will only be one class of society and no its not gonna be the upper class or the middle class, yup, its gonna be the low class. We'll all be just reduced to a 9-5 working force.
Remember, every time someone loses, someone else gains.
Right now we're losing and there sure as hell is someone out there making millions, if not billions and even trillions out of whole modern day economic misery of ours!0 -
In your mind, bright people should study, be diligent, work hard consistently, make sacrifices, progress in their careers, get to the point where they are making good livings and are in a position to provide a good life for their families...
Blangis I understand where your coming from with your arguments.
My father is a public servant on around 80K a year he works hard, has a nice house, nice car etc. He has been hit very hard with the pension and income levies. He is down alot of money each week. Not enough to put him under pressure though because he bought the house along time ago and his children are all grown up. But if this had of happened 10 years ago then it would have been a completely different story.
You are perfectly entitles to work hard and aspire to better yourself and your families lot.
But the point you are missing is that if the government have to target people for money to drag us out of this mess. Then it has to be predominantly from people like yourself, my father and all those on good wages unfortunately.0 -
If the prudent thing for the Ranelagh guy to do is to limit himself to Finglas, then the same logic should apply to the Finglas guy, and the prudent thing for him to do is to limit himself to, say, Roscommon.
Hold on. a person on 75k+ could easily afford a house in Finglas in 2006. He didn't have to overextend himself and should of bought in Finglas instead of Rathmines.
Or heaven forbid, rent in Rathmines!0 -
So if I make twice as much money as someone else, and I pay twice as much for my house as they do, they are being prudent and I am living beyond my means.
Let's take a semi-skilled guy who works in manufacturing. He buys a 3 bed semi on an estate in Finglas, and the factory he works in is in the neighborhood or a very short commute away. His family and his friends all live in Finglas too, and all do similar jobs and make similar amounts of money. There are free schools in the area for his kids and there are soccer and GAA clubs. There are pubs where he can watch the premiership with his mates, and where there are ballad sessions on Saturday nights. There are shops in the neighborhood that sell the type of goods he and his family like to purchase and consume.
Then let's take a professional who makes a six figure salary. He buys a 3 bed semi in Ranelagh, and works in an office in the city centre that he is able to get to on the Luas. His family and friends all live nearby, and all do similar jobs and make similar amounts of money. There are private schools in the area for his kids and there are tennis, golf and rugby clubs. There are restaurants and bars that suit his tastes in his neighborhood and shops that sell the type of produce he likes to consume.
So, in both cases, we have a person who gets to live among his peers, near his job and in an area which provides the amenities and services that are to his tastes.
So, explain why the guy in Finglas should have a God-given right to spend the money he earns on a lifestyle that suits him down to the ground, but not the guy in Ranelagh.
I have been very forthcoming about my opinions here. I resent having to dig proportionally deeper than other segments of society in this situation, and I resent the assumption that all it means for me is a few less caramel lattes or meals in Guilbaud's - or whatever your stereotype of choice is - while for everyone else it is a matter of life and death.
Why don't you just come out with what you really believe, instead of hiding behind this smokescreen about fiscal prudence? You resent anyone who is better off than you because you are jealous of them.
you are such an uninformed snob.
You believe a luxury house in a snooty neighbourhood, membership of an exclusive golf club, regular meals out in fancy restaurants, sending your kids to private schools and going on multiple holidays a year are your 'right' as a member of the upper class and necessary for you to live a fulfilled life and that 'working class' people are better off because they don't have the burden of expecting such luxuries and can satisfy themselves with watching football on the telly.
You clearly have not realised that the party is over, this state is bankrupt, your debt fueled lifestyle is unsustainable, taxes are going to rise and you are going to have to cut back on your luxuries.
If you think these things are essentials then I feel sorry for you.
You complain about others having a 'sense of entitlement' but you're worse than anyone else on here.
Lets look at my circumstances.
I am 26 years old. I just finished a Masters in community development (graduated last year). There are pretty much zero jobs in that area for a graduate with no experience at the moment (all the jobs are dependent on public funding, and many programs are being cut) so I am working for just above minimum wage on 20k a year.
I live with my girlfriend who was working in a Deli on less than 18k a year. She has just gone on maternity leave and we are having a baby in 3 weeks. Our combined net income is about 2100 a month, out of that I have to pay 160 a month student loan 50 car insurance and 150 for a car loan I took out 3 years ago (to buy a 2001 1.3 litre mitsubishi). Our rent is 500 a month, I pay 200 euros a month on petrol to commute to work.
We have about 200 euros a week to pay for all our other expenses, electricity, food, road tax, new tires, servicing, bin charges, telephone expenses, baby equipment clothes and nappies, we don't have sky or cable television, can't afford health insurance, hardly ever eat out, don't go to the pub.
We have no scope for savings, we have been hit by more than a thousand euros in the last 2 budgets, we haven't taken a holiday in 3 years (and that was just a few days in prague in the spring time) There is a wedding coming up in autumn that we have to go to and I don't know where we're going to find the 3 or 400 euros thats going to cost to attend (130 euros for the hotel room and 200 euros for the wedding present)
We have very little but we are managing to get by on what we have. We're getting most of our baby stuff second hand from friends and family, we buy our own clothes in charity shops and we cook meals at home using the cheapest ingredients we can get away with.
We had nothing what so ever to do with causing the economic collapse, we did not splurge on luxuries, we did not buy an overpriced house (I was very vocal in trying to convince everyone i met not to buy a property at the height of the bubble) But I find myself underemployed and living on the very edge of poverty while someone on 75k moans about his entitlement to send his kid to private school and keep his golf membership.0 -
Hold on. a person on 75k+ could easily afford a house in Finglas in 2006. He didn't have to overextend himself and should of bought in Finglas instead of Rathmines.
If the above is true, then the person on 37.5k who bought a house in Finglas shouldn't have bought in Finglas, but should have bought in Roscommon or Donegal.
If the Ranelagh guy should live in a place where he is uncomfortable, unwelcome, and miles away from where he works, where his kids go to school, and where he likes to spend his free time, then so should the Finglas guy.0 -
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If the above is true, then the person on 37.5k who bought a house in Finglas shouldn't have bought in Finglas, but should have bought in Roscommon or Donegal.
That guy can rent in Finglas or Rathmines.If the Ranelagh guy should live in a place where he is uncomfortable, unwelcome, and miles away from where he works, where his kids go to school, and where he likes to spend his free time, then so should the Finglas guy.
Why would the Ranelagh guy feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in Finglas?0 -
That guy can rent in Finglas or Rathmines.
But he didn't. He bought in Finglas. And that is the whole point of this thread. Everybody played a part in inflating the bubble, whether they bought in Tyrellstown, or in Terenure; whether they rented a penthouse in Grand Canal Dock or a bedsit in Gardiner Street, they all went for the best place they could afford and added their own bit of fuel to the flames.Why would the Ranelagh guy feel uncomfortable and unwelcome in Finglas?
That is a subject for another thread.0 -
you are such an uninformed snob.
You believe a luxury house in a snooty neighbourhood, membership of an exclusive golf club, regular meals out in fancy restaurants, sending your kids to private schools and going on multiple holidays a year are your 'right' as a member of the upper class and necessary for you to live a fulfilled life and that 'working class' people are better off because they don't have the burden of expecting such luxuries and can satisfy themselves with watching football on the telly.
You clearly have not realised that the party is over, this state is bankrupt, your debt fueled lifestyle is unsustainable, taxes are going to rise and you are going to have to cut back on your luxuries.
If you think these things are essentials then I feel sorry for you.
You complain about others having a 'sense of entitlement' but you're worse than anyone else on here.
Lets look at my circumstances.
I am 26 years old. I just finished a Masters in community development (graduated last year). There are pretty much zero jobs in that area for a graduate with no experience at the moment (all the jobs are dependent on public funding, and many programs are being cut) so I am working for just above minimum wage on 20k a year.
I live with my girlfriend who was working in a Deli on less than 18k a year. She has just gone on maternity leave and we are having a baby in 3 weeks. Our combined net income is about 2100 a month, out of that I have to pay 160 a month student loan 50 car insurance and 150 for a car loan I took out 3 years ago (to buy a 2001 1.3 litre mitsubishi). Our rent is 500 a month, I pay 200 euros a month on petrol to commute to work.
We have about 200 euros a week to pay for all our other expenses, electricity, food, road tax, new tires, servicing, bin charges, telephone expenses, baby equipment clothes and nappies, we don't have sky or cable television, can't afford health insurance, hardly ever eat out, don't go to the pub.
We have no scope for savings, we have been hit by more than a thousand euros in the last 2 budgets, we haven't taken a holiday in 3 years (and that was just a few days in prague in the spring time) There is a wedding coming up in autumn that we have to go to and I don't know where we're going to find the 3 or 400 euros thats going to cost to attend (130 euros for the hotel room and 200 euros for the wedding present)
We have very little but we are managing to get by on what we have. We're getting most of our baby stuff second hand from friends and family, we buy our own clothes in charity shops and we cook meals at home using the cheapest ingredients we can get away with.
We had nothing what so ever to do with causing the economic collapse, we did not splurge on luxuries, we did not buy an overpriced house (I was very vocal in trying to convince everyone i met not to buy a property at the height of the bubble) But I find myself underemployed and living on the very edge of poverty while someone on 75k moans about his entitlement to send his kid to private school and keep his golf membership.
When I was 26 I was worse off than you are now.
I would suggest that the reason you did a Masters is because you aspire to all of the things you mention in your first paragraph (or your own personal version of them).
Let's wait and see how you are getting on in ten years time.0 -
But he didn't. He bought in Finglas. And that is the whole point of this thread. Everybody played a part in inflating the bubble, whether they bought in Tyrellstown, or in Terenure; whether they rented a penthouse in Grand Canal Dock or a bedsit in Gardiner Street, they all went for the best place they could afford and added their own bit of fuel to the flames.
Except that renting in any of those places was affordable as opposed to buying, you cannot seem to grasp that at all.That is a subject for another thread.
Why? You brought it up as 'unwelcome and uncomfortable', there are perfectly good houses to buy in Finglas so why not live there?0 -
Except that renting in any of those places was affordable as opposed to buying, you cannot seem to grasp that at all.
I don't know how much clearer I can make my point. Here is what I believe you are saying:
Anyone who bought property during the last ten years was an aspirational idiot. They caused the housing bubble by driving up prices and they caused the financial crisis by borrowing more than they could afford to pay back. Now it is time for them to take some pain, and because they caused the above situation, they should take more pain than anyone else.
And who exactly are these scapegoats? People like me, who you have a cartoonish idea of, based on stuff like Ross O'Carroll Kelly.
What I am trying to get you to see is that everybody contributed to the bubble, you included. When your rent increased, as it surely did several times over the past number of years, did you refuse to pay, and move to a cheaper area? Of course you didn't. Like everyone else, you wanted a certain life and were prepared to pay whatever that cost.
If that is reasonable, then all our actions were reasonable.
If that is unreasonable, then all our actions were unreasonable.
In either case, singling out people like me to take more responsibility, and more of the pain of adjustment, is logically unsound and unjust.0 -
In either case, singling out people like me to take more responsibility, and more of the pain of adjustment, is logically unsound and unjust.
Blangis, you just don't seem to get it.
So i'll leave you to wallow in your self pity.0 -
I don't know how much clearer I can make my point. Here is what I believe you are saying:
Anyone who bought property during the last ten years was an aspirational idiot. They caused the housing bubble by driving up prices and they caused the financial crisis by borrowing more than they could afford to pay back. Now it is time for them to take some pain, and because they caused the above situation, they should take more pain than anyone else.
And who exactly are these scapegoats? People like me, who you have a cartoonish idea of, based on stuff like Ross O'Carroll Kelly.
What I am trying to get you to see is that everybody contributed to the bubble, you included. When your rent increased, as it surely did several times over the past number of years, did you refuse to pay, and move to a cheaper area? Of course you didn't. Like everyone else, you wanted a certain life and were prepared to pay whatever that cost.
If that is reasonable, then all our actions were reasonable.
If that is unreasonable, then all our actions were unreasonable.
In either case, singling out people like me to take more responsibility, and more of the pain of adjustment, is logically unsound and unjust.
You have some of what i'm saying took up wrong.
Its not simply 'having a roof over your head' at all costs, its about sensible decisions.
If my rent increased, i move to a different area at a better rate, i would of had that freedom.
Alot did contribute, some did not. The prudent did not engage in this bubble, the reckless borrowers did. Anyone who bought after 2002 for example is where financial examination is needed.
You started the thread how times were tough on 75k+ and yet it took 200posts later to find out why despite :
-the figures fundamentally disagreeing with you
-never answered what those anonymous bills were
-another poster finally stated what those bills were(housing costs)
Then you try the buying is better than renting subject but yet you have no defence when its pointed out that renting was a possibility instead of taking out a huge mortgage. Did alarm bells not ring at the size of that mortgage?
Then you try the argument of not buying in Finglas despite perfectly good houses there.
Why did you(they) not rent OR buy a house in Finglas?0 -
Except that renting in any of those places was affordable as opposed to buying, you cannot seem to grasp that at all.
Correct I can give an example in my area in Limerick where a room can be rented out for 180pm whereas a mortgage at the time would have been 1100pm with an average priced 300,000 house. Maybe taken into account it was only a room being rented but it shows that waiting out for the property bubble to burst is a better idea than stepping into dangerous waters of the property boom in the last 10 years.
I would also agree that the Irish people are partly to blame as they fell for this scam by the Banks. ]
It makes financial sense not to buy if you cant afford. Unfortunately not many people during the boom years had this mindset.0 -
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