If you have children you are better off on welfare

Andy Mc

I recently had a long conversation with a friend of mine who lost his job. He was in a reasonably good job and after a little bit of overtime was earning a gross salary of €35,000 per year.
So I asked him the obvious question of how he was going to cope now with 4 children to feed and I have to be honest the answer startled me, he was actually a lot better off and now in a position to go out golfing every day when his children are at school. Frankly I did not believe him until I sat down and did the sums.
On a salary of €35,000 his annual net income after the mini budget was €28,854, after all deductions. Now his on the supplementary welfare allowance which with a wife and 4 children gives you €443.90 per week or €23,083 annually. As he also has a mortgage he is entitled to mortgage interest supplement which pays all the interest on your mortgage so in his case €1,200 per month of his €1,500 mortgage or €14,400 per annum. He is also entitled to back to school and footwear payment of €905 per year for 4 children, a medical card which we will say is worth on average say €500 per year (probably more) and a heating supplement which I cannot quantify. In total he now therefore has tax free income of €38,888 and increase in his net income of €10,034 per year for working on his golf handicap. Based on the calculations after the mini budget you would need to earn more than €47,000 per year if you have 4 children to justify continuing to work. Now this is even before the costs of working like petrol, car maintenance, tolls, lunches etc.
Now in any civilised society and especially a society in a deep recession with a huge welfare bill surely the government must give people an incentive to go out and work. Making the child benefit taxable or means tested later this year is just going to make the situation far worse and encourage more people to give up work and rely on the state to live. It could even drive our small economy to collapse as the welfare bill gets bigger and bigger as more people including myself say, why should I bother to go out to work when it is basically costing me money to work?
The country needs to get back to basics, to a system that encourages people to get up off their backside to work, encourages people to take risks , set up businesses, enterprise rather than encourage people to rely on the state. Unless something radically changes I will be joining my mate on the golf course very soon.

sceptre

That's your letter in yesterday's Indo then?

Andy Mc

Yes it is, it frustrates me the way the coutry is going. You can turn a blind eye to the level of benefits in this country (which is probably the hgihest in the world) when the country is rich, the government has a continuous budget surplus and everybody has lots of money in their pocket, but now times have changed.
I myself took a big hit on my net pay (which I work hard for) last week after the mini budget while the people on beneifts who do nothing for their money except exist took no hit. What I didn't put in my letter was that a large proportion of these people on benefits are working on the black market whether it be odds jobs or child minding.
This country can no longer afford the level of benefits paid and it has to be cut back. I accept that has to a reasonable level of benefits and this should be on a par with the UK or our other EU neighbours as at the end of the day I am paying for it at the moment and so are you.
Whether you are single, married, have no children or 10 children it should always be worth your while to get up off your backside and get out and work, rather than living off the taxpayer.

edanto

I didn't read the letter in the Indo, but the numbers in your post are quite a shock.

Quite a shock.

I mean firstly that he could feed 4 children and get a mortgage of €375,000 (leading to his repayments of €1500 per month) on his salary of €35,000.

Does this person really exist?

Secondly, then it's very shocking that someone could make so much from the welfare payments..

Mortgage Interest Supplement seems like a crazy scheme - paying for people's mortgages with taxpayers money for nothing in return? Looney.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/supplementary-welfare-schemes/mortgage_interest_supplement

Thanks for bringing it to light.

MoominPapa

You may be better off, but your children won't be

Bluetonic

If your that worried about it then why not shop your mate to the welfare as if he is on the golf course he is not actively seeking work and therefore should in receipt of Jobseekers Allowance/Benefit.

There you go, it's all in your own hands to help the state. Less writing into the newspaper and a more action on your behalf would help.

smelltheglove

Andy my family would be similar to your friends, we have 2 kids, and are quite aware that we would be better off if my husband took redundancy although I am in the first year of my business that could change if things pick up better next year.

The thing about it is people would rather work, well the majority of them, it is quite depressing to be sat at home with nothing to do, I've seen it in family members. Though it is tru, its hardly an incentive for people to work is it when unemployment is more beneficial than an average job.

gurramok

Mortgage Interest Supplement lasts a year afaik.

Yes, if you do keep having kids and have a house via social housing, you do get alot of welfare spent on you.
That ain't generalising in case any PC heads jump down on it.

Andy Mc

Being on the golf course is a metaphor.
I think the way forward is to reduce the unemployment benefit in line with the reductions in the net pay of every taxpayer in the country in recent months and to abolish all the extras like mortgage interest supplement, back to school allowance, heating allowances etc. If somebody on benefits can't pay their mortgage they must sell their house and rent, nobody helps the tax payer pay their mortgage. The back to school allowance, heating allowance must be abolished in the form of cash payments, their must be a tightening on the black market workers claiming benefits as much as is possible and the most important thing is that their must be always a financial incentive to work rather than claim beneifts. They must also reduce child benefit for everybody not just the worker, €166 per child is way too high, it would be unfair to means test or tax this as this would only penalise the people out working trying to contribute to society and encourage even more people onto welfare.
In relation to mortgage interest supplement it is reviewed after a year, it does not mean you will lose it and you more than likely will not.

doubleglaze

Andy, I couldn't agree with you more. Excellent letter.

thebman

I question the accuracy of the figures (not that you would willingly mislead but that they may be inaccurate).

Are there any independant bodies that have done impartial comparisons or do we just your word?

Bluetonic

Andy Mc wrote: »

Being on the golf course is a metaphor.

I'd say the whole thing is pie in the sky.

lmimmfn

knew this already, know i guy with kids getting over 700euro a week on the social

smelltheglove

I do think the mortgage payment is unjustified, when taking out a mortgage, for me anyway, it was not released until I had payment protection which covered my mortgage for 12 months in the event of my inability to work or losing my job, now I know in the last number of years redundancy hasnt been covered so maybe some payment for those who havent been covered for this but I dont hink it should be paid without proff of the payment protection plan refusing it.

Is there a chance that people can actually get both???? How does the social know if they are giving it to someone who is entitled to have the mortgage paid under the payment protection plan.

Dampsquid

Those figures don't look right. He is earning 28000 net, and he is paying 18000 a year on his mortgage???

Also, if he was only earning 28k net, with 4 kids, he would be entilted to a a medical card anyways.

He would also be entitled to FIS (Family income suppliment). A rough calc would make it around 160 per week. (8320 per year)

Regulator79

Andy are you writing on behalf of IBEC?

Seriously, get youre priorities straight. This guy is providing for five people on that social welfare payment. The mortgage allowance will only last a year. Then what?

You say guys like him make you wonder about this country? Should you not be worried about the fact that a nexus of FF politicians, bankers and property developers have condemned us to a decade of recession and unemployment.

Youre letter is an offensive, disguisting, misguided slur.

Andy Mc

I am writing on behalf of the taxpayer.
I know the politicians, bankers and property developers created this mess but why should the guy who is out working 40/ 50 hours a week pay for it, I agree they have to pay their share but you cannot crucify the worker.
Benefits are way too high in this country and now the good times are gone the tax revenues generated simply cannot support the high level of benefits in this country. There needs to be an overhaul of the system with a view to reducing benefits to a level that the taxpayer can support and will also encourage the people on benefits out into the workplace.

nesf

Eh, the Family Income Supplement makes working more attractive than welfare for those on lowish wages.

brianthebard

Andy Mc wrote: »

Being on the golf course is a metaphor.

It certainly hasn't been presented in that manner in your letters or posts before now. You say you are fighting on behalf of the taxpayer-do you realise that until your (imaginary) friend was let go from his job he was also a taxpayer? Do you realise how many more taxpayers will be scraping by on the dole by the end of the year? I doubt if you had ever tried to live on social welfare you would have written this nonsense.

GhostInTheRuins

Was it my imagination or did I hear this post being read out on the radio this morning?

Alcatel

As I said in a related thread, it'd be nice if the government could release a representative sample of real-world examples (just the numbers, naturally! ) so as we can see who's getting what on the social welfare.

As I said, right now people are drawing facts to support their conclusions, not the other way around.

Regulator79

No Andy, you do not speak on behalf of the taxpayer you speak for yourself.

I notice that when I blamed Fianna Fail, the bankers and developers for this mess, you when agreeing, changed FF to "politicians". I presume you did that because you like the rest of the fools who turned a blind eye to Fianna Fails gangsterism and housing bubble promoting policies feel a little bit silly for voting for them? Well, you should.

I find it amazing that at a time when the government is trying to push through a bad bank scheme which will make the Irish tax payer liable for 90 billion worth of bad debts-most of which accrue to just 50 people- youre anger is reserved for a guy with four kids who just lost his job and his claiming benefits to which he is fully entitled.

Just to put that 90 billion figure in perspective, the slash and tax budget of last week will save the state 5 billion. We will be paying for the corruption and incompetence of FF led government for generations and the focus of your anger is an unemployed father of four?

Shame. Open your eyes man, you are a tacit agent of the NAMA three card trick men. Keep the masses occupied with internecine squabbles while the real stroke is pulled.

Keep your poison pen letters to yourself in future.

nesbitt

Regarding mortgage interest supplement, it is means tested... Also first 95.23 euro + 18 euro has to be paid thereafter it will only be contributed up to a certain threshold... Doubt very much if anyone is getting the amount from CWO claimed by OP. When I was a SW recipiant, I applied for this allowance in the past and was awarded big fat 0 towards my mortgage. Modest 2 bed, terraced house, 3 children.... So is this another wind up?.........

aare

nesbitt wrote: »

Regarding mortgage interest supplement, it is means tested... Also first 95.23 euro + 18 euro has to be paid thereafter it will only be contributed up to a certain threshold... Doubt very much if anyone is getting the amount from CWO claimed by OP. When I was a SW recipiant, I applied for this allowance in the past and was awarded big fat 0 towards my mortgage. Modest 2 bed, terraced house, 3 children.... So is this another wind up?.........

I totally agree...most people get little or nothing, and it was actually stated in responses to the budget (Oct) that the increase in claimants contributions to €18 in October combined with reductions in interest rates meant that very few people had anything significant to lose if mortgage interest supplement were withdrawn altogether.

maninasia

Regulator79 wrote: »

No Andy, you do not speak on behalf of the taxpayer you speak for yourself.

I notice that when I blamed Fianna Fail, the bankers and developers for this mess, you when agreeing, changed FF to "politicians". I presume you did that because you like the rest of the fools who turned a blind eye to Fianna Fails gangsterism and housing bubble promoting policies feel a little bit silly for voting for them? Well, you should.

I find it amazing that at a time when the government is trying to push through a bad bank scheme which will make the Irish tax payer liable for 90 billion worth of bad debts-most of which accrue to just 50 people- youre anger is reserved for a guy with four kids who just lost his job and his claiming benefits to which he is fully entitled.

Just to put that 90 billion figure in perspective, the slash and tax budget of last week will save the state 5 billion. We will be paying for the corruption and incompetence of FF led government for generations and the focus of your anger is an unemployed father of four?

Shame. Open your eyes man, you are a tacit agent of the NAMA three card trick men. Keep the masses occupied with internecine squabbles while the real stroke is pulled.

Keep your poison pen letters to yourself in future.

Both of you have a point. It's true FF and a small group of bankers and developers have shafted the nation with huge debts. It is also true that social welfare in Ireland is way past the capacity of the nation to support and is far ahead of our neighbouring countries benefit systems such as the UK. If it doesn't make sense to take on a job when minimum wage is so high in Ireland that means something strange is going on!

FrankGrimes

Just posting a link to a thread in the Politics forum in which Andy's figures have been shown to be quite inaccurate for visibility - whatever your opinion may be it's always better to base it on sound information: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055540985

Idbatterim

spot on andy! there are far to many spongers in this country! the quicker thecountry is on its knees the better! they wont have a choice but to sort out the whole ridiculous welfare system and public service!

procure11

lmimmfn wrote: »

knew this already, know i guy with kids getting over 700euro a week on the social

Thats unbelievable ,for your "friend" to get over €700 a week he needs to be married and have over 12 kids.This is a sensible forum with educated people that access to information,just because you want to make a point doesn't mean you should make exccessive exaggerations like that.

Daithinski

edanto wrote: »

Mortgage Interest Supplement seems like a crazy scheme - paying for people's mortgages with taxpayers money for nothing in return? Looney.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/supplementary-welfare-schemes/mortgage_interest_supplement

Thanks for bringing it to light.

Not quite sure what you expect people to do in return? Toil in a workhouse a la famine times?

The alternative would be to kick them out of their home, and then pay out (a larger amount of taxpayers money) to a landlord.

Or kick them out and put them in a council house. Presumably the government would have to go out and buy tens of thousands of homes. Its not a good time for the government to go investing in property.

Its logically and economically the lesser evil.
At least you are keeping society stable rather than uprooting thousands of people to move them into some other accomodation.

Does this scheme still seem so crazy?

Daithinski

Andy Mc wrote: »

nobody helps the tax payer pay their mortgage.

Wrong.

What about mortgage interest relief?

Daithinski

Andy Mc wrote: »

you cannot crucify the worker.

Actually, these people you are attacking until recently were the worker.

It is the people who have lost their jobs who have more of a claim to being crucified.

They have no job.

At least you still have a job.

And you think you are the one being crucified? Come off it.