Need to generate new tax streams?? - legalise Cannabis

thecornerboy

The Economist wrote: »

And another problem is when forums get filled with stuff that doesn't interests their members.

This is no longer about the potential for tax revenues versus the costs of enforcement.

If you're of the lightened-up side of things, you won't mind me moving this.

Sorry, I didn't know "members" of the economics forum were being forced to read every post at knifepoint. That must be hell. It has nothing to do with politics either, so we'll move to humanities, then to emergency services, back to economics, then to after hours as the subject is developed and expanded upon and other issues relating to it are discussed.

Zascar

Watched a good documentary called "In Pot We Trust" and basically at the end it sayd the US will not legalise as they estimate for every $1 gained in tax, in the long run it will cost them $3-$4 - the rate for Alcahaol is far heigher...

thecornerboy

Zascar wrote: »

Watched a good documentary called "In Pot We Trust" and basically at the end it sayd the US will not legalise as they estimate for every $1 gained in tax, in the long run it will cost them $3-$4 - the rate for Alcahaol is far heigher...

They also jail minors for life for smoking weed.

I'll take a look at the documentary though.

Macsimus

Flamed Diving wrote: »

And which tax approach do you think would be applied in this fine country?

Exactly.

Also, I happen to think that Amsterdam is one of the most disgusting cities I have been to in Europe. It could be very pretty if it wasn't for all the people, staggering around, stoned (not just on weed) off their face. The whole place has a very seedy feel to it, and that coming from me says a lot. :pac:

Anyway, this is dangerously veering into a politics discussion.

Empirics, anyone? Stats? Historical data?

So you think Amsterdam is seedy because people are staggering around stoned?? - Not because of the naked wretches in the windows?? - or the sleazy middle aged men who eagerly support their degrading profession??

Tell me: why would someone staggering around stoned make a place feel any more sleazy, than those who fall around every town in this country, drunk out of their minds, puking up their wages and urinating on doorsteps??? Or the old men falling around the streets at 2 p.m. every Sunday afternoon?? And in fairness I see more scummy looking junkies walking around Dublin, than I ever do when in Amsterdam.

Maybe a group of drunken yobs kicking seven shades of sh1t out of some poor guy on the ground is more desirable to you than some bloke ahead of you in the deli queue with slightly bloodshot eyes who cannot make up his mind which donuts he wants, but give me the stoner over the aggressive drunk any day.

Reliable empirics and stats are going to be few and far between on this as it has not been tried. Even in Amsterdam cannabis is not legal it is only tolerated. However, what empirics and stats do you need? pretty much anyone who wants to smoke is smoking anyway, so lets at least regulate and tax the industry not simply pretend its not happening.

drunkmonkey

What ever the pros's and con's of legilising Canniabs are, I feel it's in breach of basic human rights that you can't grow a plant in your back garden...that's just wrong!

Legilise it for home use, don't start putting it on the shelves in Centra!

Legilising for home use, and the ability to grow your own will definatley hit dealers where it hurts...

adding tax to the equasion is just stupid, the black market will still remain...

chat later....i'm of to smoke break "the law" again:rolleyes:

sink

I don't have any problem with the drug, I only have a problem with the drug trade and legalising it would immediately cut organised criminal gangs. I have never and will never buy illegal drugs because of the violence and murder it funds. But I have smoked cannabis in Holland which I bought legally and in Canada where a friend grew his own for personal use. I am a very light drinker and I don't smoke tobacco.

There are no moral or ethical issues behind smoking cannabis. It is less damaging to health than tobacco, less socially destructive than alcohol and is less addictive than both. Contrary to the opinion of many detractors it is not a stepping stone to stronger drugs, that is complete bull****. I have never used cocaine, xtc, speed or any other illegal drug and never want to. The only link between weed and other illegal drugs is the drug dealer, if you buy weed illegally you can much more easily be pushed into buying coke or xtc by the dealer especially if you are young and impressionable.

Flamed Diving

Macsimus wrote: »

So you think Amsterdam is seedy because people are staggering around stoned?? - Not because of the naked wretches in the windows?? - or the sleazy middle aged men who eagerly support their degrading profession??

No, clearly a person who has a problem with seediness/disorder would be in favour of the above...

:rolleyes:

Macsimus wrote: »

Tell me: why would someone staggering around stoned make a place feel any more sleazy, than those who fall around every town in this country, drunk out of their minds, puking up their wages and urinating on doorsteps???

No, clearly a person who has a problem with seediness/disorder would be in favour of the above...

:rolleyes:

Macsimus wrote: »

Or the old men falling around the streets at 2 p.m. every Sunday afternoon??

No, clearly a person who has a problem with seediness/disorder would be in favour of the above...

:rolleyes:

Macsimus wrote: »

And in fairness I see more scummy looking junkies walking around Dublin, than I ever do when in Amsterdam.

No, clearly a person who has a problem with seediness/disorder would be in favour of the above...

:rolleyes:

Macsimus wrote: »

Maybe a group of drunken yobs kicking seven shades of sh1t out of some poor guy on the ground is more desirable to you than some bloke ahead of you in the deli queue with slightly bloodshot eyes who cannot make up his mind which donuts he wants, but give me the stoner over the aggressive drunk any day.

No, clearly a person who has a problem with seediness/disorder would be in favour of the above...

Macsimus wrote: »

Reliable empirics and stats are going to be few and far between on this as it has not been tried. Even in Amsterdam cannabis is not legal it is only tolerated. However, what empirics and stats do you need? pretty much anyone who wants to smoke is smoking anyway, so lets at least regulate and tax the industry not simply pretend its not happening.

This supposed magic negative relationship between legalised cannabis and crime rates.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Flamed Diving wrote: »

This supposed magic negative relationship between legalised cannabis and crime rates.

This is a trivially obvious relationship.

As it stands, trade and use of cannabis is a crime, thus is contributing to crime rates.

If it's decriminalised, crime rates automatically go down.

thecornerboy

This supposed magic negative relationship between legalised cannabis and crime rates.

It's true, you could cut drug crime arrests by 50% by legalising marijuana (in the US). Think of all thos savings that could be ploughed into healthcare and education.

Flamed Diving

Thanks for your fantasy stats, guys.

So you legalise cannabis and the illegal trade for it simply vanishes, right? Right?

Wrong. Just walk down the streets of your favourite city in the world and you will be offered illegal, yes, illegal cannabis by street dealers all the time.

Legalising the drug does not mean that criminals will stop selling it.

Macsimus

Flamed Diving wrote: »

No, clearly a person who has a problem with seediness/disorder would be in favour of the above...

Your response is nonsensical - you implied that Amsterdam was seedy because you could get stoned there - I pointed out that it is seedy due to the sex trade.

You implied that the 'staggering stoner's' made the place feel seedy - I queried why a staggering stoner made the place feel seedier than a staggering drunk.

If you have a relevant argument to back up your comments I'd love to hear it, if not, then please refrain from childish repetition as it only shows up your previous points as being ill thought out codology

Flamed Diving

Macsimus wrote: »

Your response is nonsensical - you implied that Amsterdam was seedy because you could get stoned there - I pointed out that it is seedy due to the sex trade.

You implied that the 'staggering stoner's' made the place feel seedy - I queried why a staggering stoner made the place feel seedier than a staggering drunk.

If you have a relevant argument to back up your comments I'd love to hear it, if not, then please refrain from childish repetition as it only shows up your previous points as being ill thought out codology

Flamed Diving does not like seediness & disorder already present in Ireland

Flamed Diving does not like seediness & disorder present in Amsterdam

Flamed Diving would not like legalised drugs or prostitution in Ireland as he believes this legislation has made Amsterdam a seedy place.

Simple.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Wrong. Just walk down the streets of your favourite city in the world and you will be offered illegal, yes, illegal cannabis by street dealers all the time.

It's charlie and pills that the street dealers shift.

Flamed Diving

Sean_K wrote: »

It's charlie and pills that the street dealers shift.

Yup, and heroin and weed.

Macsimus

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Thanks for your fantasy stats, guys.

So you legalise cannabis and the illegal trade for it simply vanishes, right? Right?

Wrong. Just walk down the streets of your favourite city in the world and you will be offered illegal, yes, illegal cannabis by street dealers all the time.

Legalising the drug does not mean that criminals will stop selling it.

as already mentioned, cannabis is not legal in Holland - it is merely tolerated. If it were legal and you could sail a super tanker of the stuff directly from the source then the illegal smuggled stuff could not compete on price even once it was taxed.

Also where do you think most people get their smoke in Amsterdam, the dodgy bloke at the side of the road who'll nick your money or rip you off with a poor quality product - or the reliable , friendly, established retailers that are all over the place.

Please try and apply some common sense to your argument...

Soldie

While the hole in our public finances is glaringly obvious, I have issues with people approaching the discussion from a purely economic perspective or, indeed, putting forward the topic as a nifty new way of extracting tax revenue from people. Personally, I think cannabis should be legal because people should be free to put whatever they want in their own bodies, so long as they don't harm anyone else. No doubt the government would tax it if it were legal, but I don't agree with the idea that its ability to generate income merits its legalisation - I don't think it should enter the equation, at all.

ionix5891

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Flamed Diving does not like seediness & disorder already present in Ireland

Flamed Diving does not like seediness & disorder present in Amsterdam

Flamed Diving would not like legalised drugs or prostitution in Ireland as he believes this legislation has made Amsterdam a seedy place.

Simple.

no offense but after being the Dam many many times and living in Dublin

i would feel safer being at night anywhere in Amsterdam than Dublin

dont say the dutch model doesnt work, yes it has issues but alot less than we do

i would rather the Gardai worrying about heroin and cocaine than weed

hell the most dangerous drug is Alcohol and we Irish certainly like to abuse that and its LEGAL

philologos

We have enough of a problem with alcohol already. What's the point in legalising cannabis if we are going to have to increase the spending on mental hospitals and related health issues that will arise from it's consumption?

sink

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Thanks for your fantasy stats, guys.

So you legalise cannabis and the illegal trade for it simply vanishes, right? Right?

Yes! The cost of cannabis is way over inflated due to the prohibition placed upon it, and the resulting profits made by criminal gangs justify the risks they take. If cannabis is distributed legally through regulated channels at the same price that it is available illegally it will cut into the illegal dealers market share decreasing their profits, the illegal dealers will have to drop their prices in order to compete and that will decrease their profits further. The end result will be a greatly reduced risk to reward ratio, substantially decreasing the attractiveness of selling cannabis illegally and will completely wipe out the illegal trade. It's simple economics.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Wrong. Just walk down the streets of your favourite city in the world and you will be offered illegal, yes, illegal cannabis by street dealers all the time.

Legalising the drug does not mean that criminals will stop selling it.

When were you last offered illegal alcohol or tobacco? And bare in mind the penalties for distributing alcohol or tobacco illegally are tiny in comparison to distributing cannabis. When was the last time anyone was murder for territory to distribute illegal alcohol or tobacco? If the same penalties for illegally distribution of cannabis are maintained the risk to reward ratio will simply be to high for it to be economically feasible.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Jakkass wrote: »

We have enough of a problem with alcohol already.

It'll more than likely cut peoples drinking as they discover other ways to enjoy themselves that don't cost so much and aren't as debilitating the next day.

Jakkass wrote: »

What's the point in legalising cannabis if we are going to have to increase the spending on mental hospitals and related health issues that will arise from it's consumption?

Macsimus

Jakkass wrote: »

We have enough of a problem with alcohol already. What's the point in legalising cannabis if we are going to have to increase the spending on mental hospitals and related health issues that will arise from it's consumption?

because like it or not - it is already there for anyone who wants it - legalising it is unlikely to dramatically increase usage but would take the money out of the hands of criminals and murderers and give it to the Gov to spend in the public interest

thecornerboy

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Thanks for your fantasy stats, guys.

So you legalise cannabis and the illegal trade for it simply vanishes, right? Right?

Wrong. Just walk down the streets of your favourite city in the world and you will be offered illegal, yes, illegal cannabis by street dealers all the time.

Legalising the drug does not mean that criminals will stop selling it.

This part of the argument has been covered, you didn't respond to it then, why bring it up now?

gnxx

Totally agree with this. Amsterdam at night is much safer than Dublin. Very strong police presence and drunken behaviour isn't tolerated. Stuff that we take for granted ( walking in the middle of the road drunk, using the street as a toilet, kicking over bins etc ) will all result in a night in the cells in Amsterdam.

The street dealers other posters have referenced avoid selling drugs. They go to jail for this -- but won't if they ripoff tourists by selling fake drugs.

Of course cannabis should be legalized. It has far less associated problems that either cigarettes or alcohol. Ecstacy too.

The tax revenue is one half of the equation -- but removing the illegal trade and assocated garda activity would result in savings.

Maybe if the Gardai weren't tied up with pot dealers, our streets would be as safe as Amsterdam at night.

ionix5891 wrote: »

no offense but after being the Dam many many times and living in Dublin

i would feel safer being at night anywhere in Amsterdam than Dublin

dont say the dutch model doesnt work, yes it has issues but alot less than we do

i would rather the Gardai worrying about heroin and cocaine than weed

hell the most dangerous drug is Alcohol and we Irish certainly like to abuse that and its LEGAL

Flamed Diving

ionix5891 wrote: »

no offense but after being the Dam many many times and living in Dublin

i would feel safer being at night anywhere in Amsterdam than Dublin

dont say the dutch model doesnt work, yes it has issues but alot less than we do

i would rather the Gardai worrying about heroin and cocaine than weed

hell the most dangerous drug is Alcohol and we Irish certainly like to abuse that and its LEGAL

Once again, someone misses my point by a country mile.

Bravo sir.

Macsimus

Soldie wrote: »

While the hole in our public finances is glaringly obvious, I have issues with people approaching the discussion from a purely economic perspective or, indeed, putting forward the topic as a nifty new way of extracting tax revenue from people. Personally, I think cannabis should be legal because people should be free to put whatever they want in their own bodies, so long as they don't harm anyone else. No doubt the government would tax it if it were legal, but I don't agree with the idea that its ability to generate income merits its legalisation - I don't think it should enter the equation, at all.

I originally posted this on the economics forum - thats why the thread title approached it from a tax take pov - now that it has been moved here the title does indeed look a little out of place

sink

Jakkass wrote: »

We have enough of a problem with alcohol already. What's the point in legalising cannabis if we are going to have to increase the spending on mental hospitals and related health issues that will arise from it's consumption?

That is another red herring, there is no conclusive scientific evidence that points to cannabis causing psychological problems. There is evidence that smoking cannabis exacerbates pre-existing psychological problems, but then that only applies to a tiny percentage of the population. A certain percentage of people are allergic to peanuts I don't hear anybody calling for their prohibition on health grounds.

Flamed Diving

Macsimus wrote: »

Please try and apply some common sense to your argument...

I see none in yours. No wonder we disagree so.

thecornerboy

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Flamed Diving would not like legalised drugs or prostitution in Ireland as he believes this legislation has made Amsterdam a seedy place.

You're really talking a lot of nonsense. You're associating every single bad element in life you've ever encountered with weed and using Amsterdam as an example. That is extremely stupid. Holland has cities where weed is sold that aren't seedy.

Nobody is talking about legalising prostitution, Amsterdam style cafes, or legalising heroin and cocaine. We're talking about legalising and distributing weed so that the State can earn a few hundred million every year and hundreds of thousands of Irish people will no longer be regarded as criminals for enjoying a very mild, relatively harmless recreational activity in the privacy of their own homes. A bit of perspective please.

Flamed Diving

thecornerboy wrote: »

You're really talking a lot of nonsense. You're associating every single bad element in life you've ever encountered with weed and using Amsterdam as an example. That is extremely stupid. Amsterdam has cities were weed is sold that aren't seedy.

Nobody is talking about legalising prostitution, Amsterdam style cafes, or legalising heroin and cocaine. We're talking about legalising and distributing weed so that the State can earn a few hundred million every year and hundreds of thousands of Irish people will no longer be regarded as criminals for enjoying a very mild, relatively harmless recreational activity in the privacy of their own homes. A bit of perspective please.

Are you talking to me?

I could swear you are talking to someone else. I haven't a clue what you are talking about there. Not a clue.

You seem confused.

sink

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Are you talking to me?

I could swear you are talking to someone else. I haven't a clue what you are talking about there. Not a clue.

You seem confused.

Very mature :rolleyes: