Cost of Northern Ireland

OS119

futurehope wrote: »

Sorry, you seem to have missed my point. Where in The Belfast Agreement does it define whether the majority required in a border poll to trigger a UK withdrawal is a majority of the votes passed, or a majority of those legible to vote. For instance, what if the turnout is 5% - what happens then?

Please quote me the exact section of The Belfast Agreement concerned.

if you can't be arsed to vote you don't get a say.

obvious stalling tactic, and no one in HMG is going to fall for it given the prize of getting shot of you...

OS119

futurehope wrote: »

Well, having read that beautiful speech, I have to say, that I don't feel any 'emotional link' to you. Fortunately I know many, many people in England who don't share your strange views.

As a matter of interest, why is an 'Englishman' posting on an Irish political forum? What's your interest?

being required to pay for you.

futurehope

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

Futurehope, seeing as how the partition of Ireland was a failure the first time around do you really think a repartition would work a second time, being honest?

Well, the ideal is Northern Ireland as a whole staying in The UK. This is what appears to be the most likely outcome, even in the long term. Should this fail, then yes, I believe re-partition of some sort with the Ulster British rump staying in The UK or going independent would work. You see, Northern Ireland's main problem was the size of the minority (The Free State had a much smaller minority at partition which was gradually whittled down, as you know). In a repartitioned territory, The Nationalist minority would be much smaller. And, of course, other circumstances would differ from 1922.

Yes, it could work - and with little difficulty, I suspect.

ardmacha

This thread has largely gone off the rails again, as usual. The question is can NI pay for itself? I do not believe that NI is intrinsically less able to pay for itself than anywhere else. The issue is whether the policies in place encourage that or not. Whatever about various fringe lunatics, the present political arrangements have ensured peace for the most part, can they also ensure prosperity. As discussed earlier when the thread was semi relevant the UK government is borrowing 12% of GDP this year. In the future government expenditure will be restricted and it makes sense to grow the real NI economy to diminish the gap between taxation and expenditure. This will tend to happen anyway as public largesse is reduced, but can happen faster if better policies are pursued.

junder

OS119 wrote: »

i don't, and i'm English, lived all my 35 years in the UK.

i haven't seen any 'kith and kin' feeling in any of the places i've lived in the UK, i know there's quite a bit in Scotland, but the hard political reality is that it's England that will be required to pay for NI, and no English politician ever lost votes by slagging off the 'Unionists' who, for the 50 years they held sway in NI, pissed on those they had responsibility for and went mad whenever the 'beloved motherland' stuck its nose into the way they ran the place.

we've been reluctantly happy to spend blood and treasure ensuring that NI didn't fall into a Balkan-style civil war, and to uphold that principle of of self-determination (however flawed the starting point may have been), but i'm afraid that as soon as 50%+1 of the population of NI want away then the union is history. we don't have an emotional link to the place or its people, we certainly could do without the cost, we could do without having to spend 10% of our intelligence resourses on the place, and we don't really like being associated with people whose political parties have to be 'watched' so that they don't start fcuking people over just because of their religion.

riddance. rubbish. good. bad. to.

'We' just which 'We' are you talking about since my father was English i have a lot of 'kith and kin' in England, My fiance happens to be English as well. Personly i am not sure i want to be accosiated with a country that is sliding more and more into a racist mind set with the BNP getting a larger and larger foothold, you talk about balkinization well look to your own citys. Moreover i find myself like many other northern irish/irish people through the centruys being sent to fight in a war started by an english government, you may pay taxs to keep northern ireland part of the UK, we in Northern ireland have payed in our own blood to stay part of it, so spare me the tax payer whine. England is not the UK much as you like to think you are, northern ireland, scotland and wales have a share in that identy as well

ardmacha

England is not the UK much as you like to think you are, northern ireland, scotland and wales have a share in that identy as well

Nonsense. The UK is England is its colonies, which having been invaded and colonised then were joined in a fake union. Scotland has some claim to equality in UK, but Wales and NI do not.

Deedsie

ardmacha wrote: »

Nonsense. The UK is England is its colonies, which having been invaded and colonised then were joined in a fake union. Scotland has some claim to equality in UK, but Wales and NI do not.

Exactly Wales was conquered by England, Northernireland was planted to get a foothold in the most patriotic part of Ireland.

The Scots are closest to breaking the union but this pesky depression has put paid to that.

noodler

One day the Republicans up north will outnumber (outbreed) the Unionists.

If this were an invasion you have a minority of people (i.e. unionists in the context of the entire Ireland) surrounded by Catholics who keep multiplying and some even move North from the South.

Eventually, it could be 50-100 years though, I reckon the issue will come to a head naturally.

I am not sure, as an Irishman, that I would welcome the extra bane on our resources by assimilating the North such as it is.

Ping Chow Chi

OS119 wrote: »

err.... unionist myth actually.

i don't actually think i've ever met an English person who has expessed any 'pro NI' views - and i'm English, mid-thirties, university educated, politically aware if not active due to my occupation, and fairly widely travelled with a pretty wide social circle.

unlucky.

I'm Engish, late thirties, university educated and feel 'pro NI' ... there you go, you can have one

T runner

futurehope wrote: »

It could happen. The UK would define what areas of it's sovereign territory it would be prepared to seed to The ROI, a vote would take place in those areas and if passed they would join The ROI. I don't see any of this happening by the way.:rolleyes:

I don't make threats.

You threatened "serious disorder" if NI was assimilated into the republic.

There is no provision for this "vote" and no provision for the UK to decide which areas should succeed under any agreement. If there is 51% of the people wanting a united Ireland it will happen. At that stage the nature of the relationship between the two peoples would be different and the willingness of the "Unionist" side to negotiate the best deal possible would be heightened.

Therefore approaching this situation there would be negotiations, with the peole of NI and ROI and UK voting on the outcome. I would see that stage as a power sharing stage with a possible move to a federal Ireland or full integration if thats what people want later.

futurehope

ilkhanid said:

So....if after this repartition takes place-which would look like spilt milk on a map-what happens if the residual nationalist minority in that area starts to become larger?

How will it become larger? The Catholic birth rate isn't much more than The Protestant birth rate now and it's closing fast. I guess Catholic women aren't listening to the 'good' Father's anymore - what with all the child abuse that went on and everything...

"Nationalist myth." Only every British person I have spoken to, regard the inhabitants of NI as irish and have no great love for them....perhaps I spoke to the wrong people?

Ye, interesting. Funny, of all those I've spoken to from The ROI, very few mentioned a United Ireland and those that did wanted nothing to do with the idea. Some wished Ireland had stayed part of The UK. As for The English I've spoken to, most admire Ulster's Loyalists, seeing them as fighting for The British flag against rebel scum. They all seemed to have a particular dislike of people from The Republic...


Weird...

T runner

futurehope wrote: »

Both. Northern Ireland and The Irish Free State were set up to accommodate the two peoples on The Island of Ireland, namely The Irish and The Ulster British. Of course some Irish remained in NI and some Ulster British remained in The Irish Free State. Should the majority of Northern Ireland's citizens decide to leave The UK, I would respect that, but with the proviso that The Ulster British people could then exercise their free will. In such a case, re-partition might be necessary.

So firstly you would have to define Ulster British. How would you define it? Are Catholics eligeable? If not do you have to prove plantar roots or will those protestants who are in Ireland longer than 400 years (changed religion) be allowed call themselves Ulster British also?

Looks like another protestant state for a protestant people to me.

I dont think the protestants will even support that again.

By the way a 5:1 ratio in a United Ireland is also a stable majority. The fact that the protestants would have one million people would mean that they would have enough clout to ensure that they wouldnt be pissed on by the majority.

Religious in tolerance is pretty much a thing of the past in most of Ireland anyway.

They all seemed to have a particular dislike of people from The Republic...

Most English people I know seem to genuinely like Irish people.. of all colours.
What type of English people do you generally associate with?

O'Coonassa

futurehope wrote: »

As for The English I've spoken to, most admire Ulster's Loyalists, seeing them as fighting for The British flag against rebel scum. They all seemed to have a particular dislike of people from The Republic...


Weird...

Not at all, but when you're through talking to Combat 18 you should gauge the opinions of the average Englishman, you're in for a shock Paddy.

ilkhanid

"The UK would define what areas of it's sovereign territory it would be prepared to seed to The ROI, a vote would take place in those areas and if passed they would join The ROI. "

What does the word "area" mean? Will these be counties,or townlands, urban districts, urban districts and their hinterlands,electoral districts etc etc. This is can-of-worms territory.

futurehope

OS119 wrote: »

i don't actually think i've ever met an English person who has expessed any 'pro NI' views - and i'm English, mid-thirties, university educated, politically aware if not active due to my occupation, and fairly widely travelled with a pretty wide social circle.

unlucky.

Well I'm over the age of consent, very well educated, extremely politically aware, have travelled to some far away places and have a huge social circle and I have to admit I've met plenty of English with 'pro NI' views - though obviously they didn't put it in that sort of manner. :rolleyes:

Lucky?

futurehope

OS119 wrote: »

if you can't be arsed to vote you don't get a say.

obvious stalling tactic, and no one in HMG is going to fall for it given the prize of getting shot of you...

HMG - sounds like a macho military term - God!!! You're not SAS are you?

:eek::eek::eek:

futurehope

OS119 wrote: »

being required to pay for you.

That's very interesting OS119. Mind you, I'm not sure how that works. If you want to break up The Union, I'd have thought you'd have been on an English Nationalist site rather than an Irish site. After all they've already left haven't they?

By the way, you've not said where you and your extended family live in England, as it appears that some English regions are heavily subsidised as well (seeing as you're so concerned with free-loaders):

http://www.channel4.com/news/article.jsp?id=1041867

Net government spending (£bn)

North West England: 2.4
North East England: 4.0
Yorkshire & Humberside: 1.3

Oh, and in case you need a reason to ditch Scotland and Wales:

Scotland: 3.7
Wales: 5.4

So, just how big is your rich little country going to be old boy? Oh, and where are you going to find the young graduates to make all it's cash?

futurehope

ardmacha wrote: »

Nonsense. The UK is England is its colonies, which having been invaded and colonised then were joined in a fake union. Scotland has some claim to equality in UK, but Wales and NI do not.

The UK is England? Strange! Your claim that Unions can be fake is laughable. Do you think that territories only started to join together following the introduction of the universal mandate? Most countries were formed by conquest - including England. I suggest you dig out a few history books, preferably ones that start prior to 1916.

Fratton Fred

The Welsh, Scots and Irish (including the British ones) hate the English, so how much sympathy do you think any of them will get. Free prescriptions all over the UK except for England, all funded by the English...**** that for a game of soldiers.

futurehope

T runner said:

You threatened "serious disorder" if NI was assimilated into the republic.

I didn't threaten it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it happens. But then The Republic's government are well aware of such a possibility, as is The UK state.

There is no provision for this "vote" and no provision for the UK to decide which areas should succeed under any agreement. If there is 51% of the people wanting a united Ireland it will happen.

Well, if you believe that, then there's nothing I can do to help you. There's no provision for many things in life.

futurehope

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Not at all, but when you're through talking to Combat 18 you should gauge the opinions of the average Englishman, you're in for a shock Paddy.

If you think the only people in England who support The Union are in Combat 18, it's you who's in for a shock.

futurehope

ilkhanid wrote: »

"The UK would define what areas of it's sovereign territory it would be prepared to seed to The ROI, a vote would take place in those areas and if passed they would join The ROI. "

What does the word "area" mean? Will these be counties,or townlands, urban districts, urban districts and their hinterlands,electoral districts etc etc. This is can-of-worms territory.

Not really. The UK State will define the areas and offer them to The ROI. Those that The ROI agrees to take (if any) will have a vote and if passed they'll be transferred. Seems pretty simple to me. Throw in a few relocation grants for those who don't want to stay or don't want to go and Robert is indeed your uncle. There'd be some teething problems, but nothing to scare the horses.

A Dub in Glasgo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Welsh, Scots and Irish (including the British ones) hate the English, so how much sympathy do you think any of them will get. Free prescriptions all over the UK except for England, all funded by the English...**** that for a game of soldiers.

No free prescriptions here. Can you back up your assertion that England is funding all this?

Fratton Fred

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

No free prescriptions here. Can you back up your assertion that England is funding all this?

I thought the Scottish parlia£ent gave you all free prescriptions? Check the stats a few pages back,that is pretty self explanatory I would have though.

O'Coonassa

futurehope wrote: »

If you think the only people in England who support The Union are in Combat 18, it's you who's in for a shock.

meh Europe has made the Union obsolete, it is dissolving. Scotland will go first. 200 years ago your ancestors despised the Union and had to be bribed into it. Already I see you're being bribed out of it, my taxes are paying towards historic celebrations in London's Derry.

jank

getz wrote: »

ok you have called the north quote--bigoted sectarian goverment-SOCIETY ,these people are british so thats anglophobia-and the only reason you are posting on the threads is because you think the provence should be under the rule of the republic of ireland despite their right of vote

Some are Irish too;)

Eh, look into the history of the NI government from 1922 to devolution and tell me that they gave equal rights to catholics as well as to protestants.
Why do you still in this day and age in 2009 do you have nationalist schools as well as unionist schools right next door to each other. Just because I point out some facts doesnt make me an anglophobe mister!

NI is at the moment a sectarian society. Why the **** is there power sharing? Why cant they just vote for the party on the basis of policys rather then national identity? Hmmmmm maybe the penny will drop!

You know there is a huge nationalist population in the north too that call themselves Irish. So, because I call the north a sectarian society it makes me an anglophobe, but if thats the case it makes me anti-irish aswell.:pac:

So I am an Irish anti-Irish anglophobe, living and working in a largely anglo-saxon country. LOL!
Russia is a pseudo democracy, doesnt make me anti-russian to point that out!:p

Maybe you should get you more and challenge your limited world view.

Oh and please point out where I said we should force NI into a United Ireland regardless of the peoples wishes or please SHUT THE **** UP!

IMO poor attempt of a WUM. So, I would like you to withdraw the remark that I am an anglo-phobe as you have no basis or proof to make such a remark.

jank

futurehope wrote: »

Well, having read that beautiful speech, I have to say, that I don't feel any 'emotional link' to you. Fortunately I know many, many people in England who don't share your strange views.

As a matter of interest, why is an 'Englishman' posting on an Irish political forum? What's your interest?

Most english people I have met dont give a crap about the north. As a matter of interest why is someone like yourself posting on such a "republican" Irish forum. What is your interest besides being a wind up merchant.

jank

futurehope wrote: »

ilkhanid said:
As for The English I've spoken to, most admire Ulster's Loyalists, seeing them as fighting for The British flag against rebel scum. They all seemed to have a particular dislike of people from The Republic...


Weird...

How are Combat 18 these days. I hear they are actively recruiting.:)

jank

futurehope wrote: »

ilkhanid said:
As for The English I've spoken to, most admire Ulster's Loyalists, seeing them as fighting for The British flag against rebel scum. They all seemed to have a particular dislike of people from The Republic...


Weird...

How are Combat 18 these days. I hear they are actively recruiting.:)

jank

futurehope wrote: »

Well, having read that beautiful speech, I have to say, that I don't feel any 'emotional link' to you. Fortunately I know many, many people in England who don't share your strange views.

As a matter of interest, why is an 'Englishman' posting on an Irish political forum? What's your interest?

Most english people I have met dont give a crap about the north. As a matter of interest why is someone like yourself posting on such a "republican" Irish forum. What is your interest besides being a wind up merchant.