THAT letter in the Independent- Golf playing Dad

Mr. Incognito

Extracted from the Irish Independent 15/04/2009



What a country…

I recently had a long conversation with a friend of mine who lost his job.
He was in a reasonably good job and after a little bit of overtime was
earning a gross salary of €35,000 per year.

So I asked him the obvious question of how he was going to cope now with
four children to feed and, I have to be honest, the answer startled me.

He was actually a lot better off and now in a position to go out golfing
every day while his children are at school.

Frankly, I did not believe him until I sat down and did the sums. On a
salary of €35,000, his annual net income after the mini Budget was €28,854,
after all deductions.

Now he is on the supplementary welfare allowance which -- with a wife and
four children -- gives you €443.90 per week, or €23,083 annually.

As he also has a mortgage, he is entitled to mortgage interest supplement
which pays all the interest on your mortgage. In his case, this was €1,200
per month of his €1,500 mortgage, or €14,400 per annum.

He is also entitled to back-to-school and footwear payment of €905 per year
for four children, a medical card which is worth, on average, say €500 per
year (probably more) and a heating supplement which I cannot quantify.

In total, he now has tax-free income of €38,888, an increase in his net
income of €10,034 per year for working on his golf handicap.

Based on the calculations after the mini-Budget, you would need to earn
more than €47,000 per year if you have four children to justify continuing
to work.

This is even before taking into account the costs of working, such as
petrol, car maintenance, tolls, lunches and so on.

Now in any civilised society, and especially in a society in a deep
recession with a huge welfare bill, surely the government must give people
an incentive to go out and work

Making the child benefit taxable or means tested later this year is just
going to make the situation worse and encourage more people to give up work
and rely on the State to live.

It could even drive our small economy to collapse as the welfare bill gets
bigger and bigger as more people, including myself, ask: why should I
bother to go out to work when it is basically costing me money to work?

Unless something radically changes, I will be joining my mate on the golf
course very soon.

Andy McNamara
Drogheda, Co Louth < http://www.independent.ie/topics/County+Louth >

I cannot tell you how many times I've seen this referenced in the last few days.

However,

That's quite simply, bollox

35,000 @20% = 7,000

Less married Credit 3660
PAYE Credit 1830
5490

Tax 1210
Health Levy @4%, in fact these rates are composite rates until the end of 09 so it's not that high. =1400
Income Levy @2% = 700

Total Tax Bill 3610

Net Pay €31,390. Plus he could easily avail of additional credits like service charges, medical expenses etc.

Social welfare is here:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/supplementary-welfare-schemes/supplementary_welfare_allow

Applicant €204.3
Wife €135.60
4 Kids at €26 each

Total 419.90 X 52 is €21, 834.8 per annum

Mortgage Interest is only short term on the interest not on the capital. You will also be oblidged to make contributions- the minimum being €24.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/supplementary-welfare-schemes/mortgage_interest_supplement. The example of €1200 off a €1500 mortgage is not only laughable but would not be maintained for any length of time.

So, lets say he's is getting such a crazy amount

weekly income €419.90

Less minimum contributions €24, less the rest of the INTEREST portion only of the mortgage €75, less the CAPITAL, on a mortgage that has interest of €1500 a month capital is going to be much much higher! Indeed with current interest rates it means our golf playing dad has a mortgage of €1,000,000 on a 35K salary!!!

Leaves him with net weekly income of buttons.

Andy McNamra is not only annoying but his is mis-informed- I suggest he go join a dole queue, wait 6 weeks odd on NO income to be assessed and another 3 months to have your payments processed.

€905 for 4 kids, for uniforms, books, buses, shoes, bags, biros and god knows what else.

The Independent are as bad for printing this obvious muppetry. Anyone who has any experience of the dole will know that's it's all the incentive you need to go find a job

cavedave

So working he makes €31,390
not working he makes €21, 834

Mortgage Interest is only short term on the interest not on the capital

How much would you reasonably get? and for how long?
Say 400 euro in interest payments. Thats 4800 a year. Bringing the difference to about 5k.

Say it is the 10K you would have with no interest payments/rent allowance etc. 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year is 2000 hours. For 10 thousand euro. Thats 5 euros an hour hes making for working as opposed to not working.

Mr. Incognito

I think your missing the point that he has to repay the CAPITAL of his €1,000,000 mortgage out of what's left from his social welfare bringing him into negative cash a week.

Lets say he's no mortgage. To get rent relief since the budget you have to be living there 6 months first. Maximum rent relief is €60 a week, only available after 6 months of paying full whack. Average rent is between €100 and €150 depending on area.
Believe me there is a HUGE difference between working and social welfare.

And that's a married bloke with 4 kids. Take away the 4 kids and that's €100 a week of the €400 odd gone. Take away the wife and he's down to €200 verses a guy that could be working and taking home €550-600 a week

cavedave

Mr. Incognito

I think your missing the point that he has to repay the CAPITAL of his €1,000,000 mortgage out of what's left from his social welfare bringing him into negative cash a week.

The mortgage numbers seem fishy alright.*edit
Actually they do seem to be reasonable. The example of €1200 a month interest. Say hes paying 5% having fixed last year. Thats a mortgage of about 300K. Now someone on 35K should not have gotten a mortgage of that much but its completely believable that they did. Say his wife was on the same money and they had a 'lodger' etc at the time.

Believe me there is a HUGE difference between working and social welfare.

There is and their needs to be to provide an incentive to work.

Maximum rent relief is €60 a week

so 3120 a year. working €31,390
not working he makes €25000

I'm not arguing here for a reduction in benefits. Just seeing what the incentive to work for someone on average wages is.

brianthebard

I don't read the indo but perhaps if no one has written in with a similar rebuttal you should OP. Those figures were so clearly dislocated from reality, but people love to believe that social welfare is a gravy train.

Andy Mc

In reply to Mr Incognito.
I wrote this article that appeared in the paper and someone had to fight back on behalf of the Irish taxpayer.
A couple of points make

1. You are obviously one of those people living off the hard working tax payer.

2. The calculation of the net pay was done on the tax calculator that was going around after the mini budget so the calculation of €28,854 is correct.

3. In relation to benefits being claimed the weekly payment for someone with 4 kids is €443.90 and not €419.90 you only includud 3 children,

4. the mortgage interest supplement as you said allows you to claim for all your interest payments except €24 and none of the principal and even though it says that it is reviewed after a year and only short term, this in not the case in practice. In the case of my example my friend has a fixed rate mortgage with high interest payments. It is fair to say that the interest payments on mortgages are coming down so the average claim may be somewhere between €500 and €1,000 per month.


In summary what I am saying is that in a lot of cases especially if have children you are better off not working at the moment and even more so if they means test the child benefit or if you can pick up work on the black market.

oscarBravo

Andy Mc wrote: »

1. You are obviously one of those people living off the hard working tax payer.

Don't get personal.

Mr. Incognito

Andy,

Welcome. It's nice to have you attend this discussion.

1. You are obviously one of those people living off the hard working tax payer.

Lol, Actually Andy as it happens I'm a tax consultant. I've nowt interest in the dole but your figures screamed "Bullsh*t" I'm as hard working as the next person, I'm just not bigoted towards those that are unable to get jobs through no fault of their own right now.

2. The calculation of the net pay was done on the tax calculator that was going around after the mini budget so the calculation of €28,854 is correct.

I assure you it is not. I too received the net pay calculator, I did the calcualtions independently as above, but out of interest I banged them into your fun little calculator and it gives me a difference of €88, but it neglects the Health Levy. Feel free to pm for an email address and you can send me on your more worthy doomsday scenario calculation and I'll tell you exactly where it is wrong.

3. In relation to benefits being claimed the weekly payment for someone with 4 kids is €443.90 and not €419.90 you only includud 3 children,

Bang on, missed that myself.

4. the mortgage interest supplement as you said allows you to claim for all your interest payments except €24 and none of the principal and even though it says that it is reviewed after a year and only short term, this in not the case in practice. In the case of my example my friend has a fixed rate mortgage with high interest payments. It is fair to say that the interest payments on mortgages are coming down so the average claim may be somewhere between €500 and €1,000 per month.

You see, actually Andy, I doubt it. How is someone earning 35K after overtime I might add with 4 kids on a job that wasn't that secure as things came to pass going to get his hands on a mortgage with fixed Interest payments of €1500 a month. Even if it was a fixed rate motgage it's a mortgage of 450,000- 500,000+. Are you for real??

I think you had a look at the social welfare site and said to yourself- hey I can go to town here. Only that you forgot that well, apart from a portion of your interest, as well as leaving you stuck for the rest, you have to repay the CAPITAL too. Whoops. Your imaginary friend just lost his glof card.

In summary what I am saying is that in a lot of cases especially if have children you are better off not working at the moment and even more so if they means test the child benefit or if you can pick up work on the black market.

Do you have kids by any chance? Do you know how much kids clothes cost? My son's four and a pair of shoes are €40. You think €26 euro per child per week is enough? You think your imaginary friend, lets call him Tom, yes, Tom is swanning around the glof course while his kids are zooming around the house in bare feet?

I wrote this article that appeared in the paper and someone had to fight back on behalf of the Irish taxpayer.

Fight back? Excuse me? Are we facing an armed insurrection from the out of work masses. This society is based on the premise that if you pay your taxes and are unable to find work the state will support you until you can. That could be you, me or anybody. I dont disagree some people take advantage or the system but it's not easy to find a balance and something is better than nothing. In addition if you think you could raise 4 kids and a wife on €400 odd a week, best of luck. It may sound like a lot but, 4 kids! You know how much that is in shopping, clothes, books, school bags, bus fares.

Not counting repayment of the rest of the mortgage, and interest, and what about the wife. Is she living on air?

Unless something radically changes, I will be joining my mate on the golf
course very soon.

I suggest you do that. And while you're out on th golf course paying €80 a round in green fees you can both talk about how foolish all the working classes are and down a glass of hennesy VSOP and take your yellow submarine ( because there is no way you could afford to drive but hey, in fantasy land yellow submarines are all the rage) home to your rent relieved mansion where your loving wife and emaciated children await you.

Alcatel

Math is a constant. 1+1 is always 2. The problem is when you start to put in human factors, and we can skew math either which way we like - to make social welfare look cushier or worse off than it actually is.

It would be nice if the government could publish, with any identification removed, the sheer numbers and breakdown of what individuals on social welfare are getting. Even a representative sample.

I don't trust either the article's figures or Mr. Incognito's, and that's because two people, looking at exactly the same scenario, have two completely polar opposite results. Maybe one of them is right. Maybe they're both wrong and it's somewhere in the middle, or far off to the left or right of field of their analysis.

Government don't release "actual" figures, do they?

Mr. Incognito

Government don't release "actual" figures, do they?

Yes, It's called the Budget. Feel free to Google Budget 2009 and it'll give you the exact breakdown of social welfare costs.

cavedave

Given the fixing of the number of children the numbers are now.
So working he makes €31390
not working he makes €23082+904 allowances=24000

Before rent allowance or mortgage interest payments.

So now hes working 2000 hours a year for how much?

How is someone earning 35K after overtime I might add with 4 kids on a job that wasn't that secure as things came to pass going to get his hands on a mortgage with fixed Interest payments of €1500 a month. Even if it was a fixed rate motgage it's a mortgage of 450,000- 500,000+. Are you for real??

I read it as the interest was 1200 and 300 went to pay the mortgage off. 1200*12 at 5% would be a mortgage of about 300K? Which may not be wise but its not unbelievable is it?

K-9

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Lol, Actually Andy as it happens I'm a tax consultant. I've nowt interest in the dole but your figures screamed "Bullsh*t" I'm as hard working as the next person, I'm just not bigoted towards those that are unable to get jobs through no fault of their own right now.

Mr. Incognito wrote:

I assure you it is not. I too received the net pay calculator, I did the calcualtions independently as above, but out of interest I banged them into your fun little calculator and it gives me a difference of €88, but it neglects the Health Levy. Feel free to pm for an email address and you can send me on your more worthy doomsday scenario calculation and I'll tell you exactly where it is wrong.

You left out PRSI of about €2,403 with the new increased Health Levy.

The Net Pay isn't too far out.

Edit: Talking crap. You are right!

I've a feeling he used single mans credits just to make it look that bit better!

Mr. Incognito

Firstly Dave,

The Mortgage interest is at the discretion of the CWO.

Secondly as far as I'm aware no-one will get 100% mortgage interest relief. There are guidelines loosely set out by the maximum rent supplements- the lnk above as further details. Interesting that Andy has such an intimate knowledge that this short term relief is automatically renewed each year in practise.

There will also be mortgage interest relief at source that has to be factored in and the capital repayment out of imaginary Tom's own pocket.

In relation to mortagages a rough guideline was 5 times your combined income so Tom's mortgage buying power should be hovering around the €175K mark.

Aye, with the unrealsitic example of 4 kids, there is not much between 31K net and 24K net, only an increase of a third of your salary but in the more like scenario of an ordinary punter in his mid twenties with no Kids like Andy here who's off to play golf he'll be knocking golf balls on 11,400K basic dole. Slight difference there me thinks.

K-9

35,000 @20% = 7,000

Less married Credit 3660
PAYE Credit 1830
Home Carers 900
6390

Tax 610
Health Levy @4%, in fact these rates are composite rates until the end of 09 so it's not that high. =1400
Income Levy @2% = 700
PRSI @ 4% 1,136

Total Tax Bill 3,846?

Would that be closer?

He'd get FIS too of about €110/120 (not sure if income levy is deducted) a week and maybe the Doctors only medical card?

cavedave

In relation to mortagages a rough guideline was 5 times your combined income so Tom's mortgage buying power should be hovering around the €175K mark.

175 for Tom. Say his wife was on the same wage before she had 4 kids. That's up to 350. I have heard enough stories from friends about being offered ridiculous mortgages to believe he has a 300k mortgage. Not that he should have just that he does have.

Aye, with the unrealsitic example of 4 kids, there is not much between 31K net and 24K net, only an increase of a third of your salary but in the more like scenario of an ordinary punter in his mid twenties with no Kids like Andy here who's off to play golf he'll be knocking golf balls on 11,400K basic dole. Slight difference there me thinks.

Well 24k net before shelter allowances of various sorts are included.
I am not coming at this from a dole bashing standpoint. 24k + shelter allowance does not seem overly much to raise a family. But if that is the amount needed does it mean you cannot afford a house and family on average earnings?

Mr. Incognito

But if that is the amount needed does it mean you cannot afford a house and family on average earnings?

That seems to be the problem up and down the length of the island these days mate.

Woger

Anyone else think the original letter is ripped off from one of those nonsense urban myth emails?

Nodin

Andy Mc wrote: »

In reply to Mr Incognito.
I wrote this article .

Letter.

Andy Mc wrote: »

4. the mortgage (....)€1,000 per month..

As a perfunctory visit to ascertain the details would reveal, the amount of interest relief is paid on is capped at 20,000. The maximum amount of relief is 25%. Therefore the most availabe in a year is 5,000. You can check this on the Revenue website and citizens information.

Earlier posts on the subject.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59847916&postcount=126
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59848152&postcount=127

In addition, you fail to mention that this is not just available to unemployed persons.

BriantheBard wrote:

I don't read the indo but perhaps if no one has written in with a similar rebuttal you should OP. Those figures were so clearly dislocated from reality, but people love to believe that social welfare is a gravy train. ..

I e-mailed in a letter yesterday evening, as this kind of thing irritates me no end.

daveco23

In terms of writing a rebuttal to the Indo, may I suggest Mr Incognito send in his dissection. Brilliant.

Alcatel

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Yes, It's called the Budget. Feel free to Google Budget 2009 and it'll give you the exact breakdown of social welfare costs.

Please don't be smarmy... I was referring to individual examples of what people are getting into their hand, real people. So as we can see if this sort of thing really is going on, clear as day or night.

Right now people are seeking facts to sustain their conclusions, not the other way around. I don't say you're wrong, I'd just like to see some real world examples as told by the revenue, as to what somebody is actually getting versus what they used to get.

Gambit32

It is quite remarkable how a supposedly reputable highstreet newspaper like the Indo,allowed such an amazingly misinformed,nonsense,and bigoted article obviously written by someone very ignorant individual appear in print.....................trust me living on the labour and social welfare is no picnic,believe it or not it is more stress physically and mentally to be on the dole then it is working,due to the amount of depression,worry,miserey,effort actually looking for job thats entailed,and the figures mentioned in the artcle are laughable lol,if only the labour was so generous,we'd all be on it,and nobody would be working,we'd all be playing golf and sleeping in till 1 everyday........................in my own situation,I live with my girlfriend and child,we rent a house which is 1100 a month,which is reasonably cheap,we have a car on fiance,and a small loan to pay off,I work full time,am on about25k year,my girlfriend is on one parent family allowance and recieves about 250 euro a month and 80 euro childrens allowance at the end of every month,she also recieves rent allowance towards the house,which is like third the rent,I pay the rest...................we have no hope of getting a mortage so we are forced to get by like this,we are on the housing list and affordable housung list,but could be 2 years waiting for an offer.....................if my girlfriend was just claiming the labour,then we wouldnt be able to get by and therefore wouldnt be able to live together,which would break up our family and Im not prepared to do that,we find it extremely difficult to get by,sometimes going without any money for two weeks at a time...................................with ESB,food shopping(which we do in Lidl),loan repayment,car loan,insurance,buses,nappies etc,we are extremely poor,but we are happy and thats the main thing I challenge this Andy Mac to live like I do,I doubt he'd last a week and would be begging for the chandonay and games of golf,lol

Woger

Gambit32 wrote: »

It is quite remarkable how a supposedly reputable highstreet newspaper like the Indo,allowed such an amazingly misinformed,nonsense,and bigoted article obviously written by someone very ignorant individual appear in print.....................trust me living on the labour and social welfare is no picnic,believe it or not it is more stress physically and mentally to be on the dole then it is working,due to the amount of depression,worry,miserey,effort actually looking for job thats entailed,and the figures mentioned in the artcle are laughable lol,if only the labour was so generous,we'd all be on it,and nobody would be working,we'd all be playing golf and sleeping in till 1 everyday........................in my own situation,I live with my girlfriend and child,we rent a house which is 1100 a month,which is reasonably cheap,we have a car on fiance,and a small loan to pay off,I work full time,am on about25k year,my girlfriend is on one parent family allowance and recieves about 250 euro a month and 80 euro childrens allowance at the end of every month,she also recieves rent allowance towards the house,which is like third the rent,I pay the rest...................we have no hope of getting a mortage so we are forced to get by like this,we are on the housing list and affordable housung list,but could be 2 years waiting for an offer.....................if my girlfriend was just claiming the labour,then we wouldnt be able to get by and therefore wouldnt be able to live together,which would break up our family and Im not prepared to do that,we find it extremely difficult to get by,sometimes going without any money for two weeks at a time...................................with ESB,food shopping(which we do in Lidl),loan repayment,car loan,insurance,buses,nappies etc,we are extremely poor,but we are happy anaf thats the main thing I challenge this Andy Mac to live like I do,I doubt he'd last a week and would be begging for the chandonay and games of golf,lol

The rag should be bombarded with the rebutal. How many people do you think are talking about it (figures getting bigger as it's told more), god knows what taxi drivers are saying!!

Mr. Incognito

Please don't be smarmy... I was referring to individual examples of what people are getting into their hand, real people. So as we can see if this sort of thing really is going on, clear as day or night.

Right now people are seeking facts to sustain their conclusions, not the other way around. I don't say you're wrong, I'd just like to see some real world examples as told by the revenue, as to what somebody is actually getting versus what they used to get.

I wasn't being smarmy, if you want to know what real people are getting it's quite simple to look up their entitlements.

follow the links in my original post that point to entitlements. I was referring to the breakdown of social welfare and how much goes where overall.

If you want, say a typical married person with two kids look up the entitlements and do the math, If you want to know what John Mac X on the dole on Shrewsberry lane gets this information is classified under privacy laws.

djpbarry

Gambit32 wrote: »

It is quite remarkable how a supposedly reputable highstreet newspaper like the Indo...

The Indo is a reputable newspaper? Since when?

Nodin

Alcatel wrote: »

Right now people are seeking facts to sustain their conclusions, not the other way around. I don't say you're wrong, I'd just like to see some real world examples as told by the revenue, as to what somebody is actually getting versus what they used to get.

Well its been pointed out to you where you can see "real world examples" of how your calculations re mortgage interest relief are entirely wrong on the revenue site......

turgon

I think this whole event could be described by the quote "lies, damned lies and statistics"

It just another example of people twisting numbers to suit their case, puttin a plus instead of a minus accidentally on purpose etc. And a lot of people buy all that, because they want too. A lot of people who dislike FF will not stop at simply dismissing them on ground they know FF to be doing wrong, once they hear any criticism they will automatically take it to heart.

Nodin

No rebuttals printed today. I'd suggest anyone with an interest fire one in.

Offy

I work and I claim social welfare (all legal and above board). My social welfare pays my tax and leaves a little aside. If I lost my job it wouldnt be disastrous. It costs me almost €200 a week for childcare and as I live in a council house my rent would drop from €1k per month to about €200-250 a month resulting in a saving of around €750-800 per month in rent. If I wasnt working I would be entitled to a medical card saving me more money every month. For someone in my personal position (three kids) working in a low paid job IS financially worse than not working. I have to take home at least €400 per week before I benifit from working.
I hold the view that social walfare is not the problem, IMO the problem is employers that pay low wages, this is what encourages low paid workers to jack their jobs and sign on.

ParkRunner

K-9 wrote: »

35,000 @20% = 7,000

Less married Credit 3660
PAYE Credit 1830
Home Carers 900
6390

Tax 610
Health Levy @4%, in fact these rates are composite rates until the end of 09 so it's not that high. =1400
Income Levy @2% = 700
PRSI @ 4% 1,136

Total Tax Bill 3,846?

Would that be closer?

He'd get FIS too of about €110/120 (not sure if income levy is deducted) a week and maybe the Doctors only medical card?

Add in another deduction of about €1800-€2000 if he is a public servant. It isn't clear what he works as

Newaglish

EF wrote: »

Add in another deduction of about €1800-€2000 if he is a public servant. It isn't clear what he works as

He was hypothetically made redundant from his job. I'm going to take a wild guess and say he's not a public servant

bobbbb

Andy Mc wrote: »

I wrote this article that appeared in the paper.

I hope you are hanging your head in shame for that.
What a ridiculous article.
Its a terrible shame that someone as bad as you are at your job even has a job while there are others out there trying to get one.