THAT letter in the Independent- Golf playing Dad

MG

Aren't you all getting slightly caught up in the numbers? What has been shown by both sides in this thread is that the gap between working and the dole can be small enough and there is therefore a huge disincentive to work (except in the black economy).

We'll never get out of recession if we don't reward work.

K-9

Nodin wrote: »

Letter.



As a perfunctory visit to ascertain the details would reveal, the amount of interest relief is paid on is capped at 20,000. The maximum amount of relief is 25%. Therefore the most availabe in a year is 5,000. You can check this on the Revenue website and citizens information.

Earlier posts on the subject.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59847916&postcount=126
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59848152&postcount=127

In addition, you fail to mention that this is not just available to unemployed persons.



I e-mailed in a letter yesterday evening, as this kind of thing irritates me no end.

Wait a sec, you are referring to Tax relief, not this:
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/Pages/swa_mort.aspx

MG wrote: »

Aren't you all getting slightly caught up in the numbers? What has been shown by both sides in this thread is that the gap between working and the dole can be small enough and there is therefore a huge disincentive to work (except in the black economy).

We'll never get out of recession if we don't reward work.

Indeed, if he is on 35k and gets FIS, there appears to be very little difference in income to being on SW. Madness. Indeed as EF pointed out, he could actually be down a grand or 2. Either he is being too highly taxed, it's about 11% of income or the SW is too high?

Nodin

K-9 wrote: »

Wait a sec, you are referring to Tax relief, not this:
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/Pages/swa_mort.aspx

Even so, that would only refer to the interest on the mortgage, not the total amount. Theres still no way you're going to get 1200 of 1500 paid off for you.

K-9

Nodin wrote: »

Even so, that would only refer to the interest on the mortgage, not the total amount. Theres still no way you're going to get 1200 of 1500 paid off for you.

Thing is, if it's a recent mortgage, 12/1500 being Interest is correct. It takes years for the bloody balance to reduce significantly.

The rules only look for a small contribution towards the interest. There is a clause about being able to afford the mortgage when you took it out and I'd say that could be used more. €1,500 would have been roughly 1/2 of his Net wage, ridiculous.

The figures on the SW side seem not too far of the mark.

Nodin

K-9 wrote: »

Thing is, if it's a recent mortgage, 12/1500 being Interest is correct. It takes years for the bloody balance to reduce significantly.

The rules only look for a small contribution towards the interest. There is a clause about being able to afford the mortgage when you took it out and I'd say that could be used more. €1,500 would have been roughly 1/2 of his Net wage, ridiculous.

The figures on the SW side seem not too far of the mark.

Hmmmm. Theres me looking like a large penis head then.....

K-9

Nodin wrote: »

Hmmmm. Theres me looking like a large penis head then.....

I'm not well up on the Mortgage Interest Supplement. I think you have to claim of any redundancy insurance first, definitely and rightly so. Not sure how easy it is to get and keep getting. It is only supposed to be a short term payment.

Hillel

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Andy,

Welcome. It's nice to have you attend this discussion. ......
Fight back? Excuse me? Are we facing an armed insurrection from the out of work masses. This society is based on the premise that if you pay your taxes and are unable to find work the state will support you until you can. That could be you, me or anybody. I dont disagree some people take advantage or the system but it's not easy to find a balance and something is better than nothing. In addition if you think you could raise 4 kids and a wife on €400 odd a week, best of luck. It may sound like a lot but, 4 kids! You know how much that is in shopping, clothes, books, school bags, bus fares.

Thank you for that.
Yes, it could be you, me, or many others. The social contract, which includes welfare payments, underpins our democracy. We do not want a "race to the bottom" where the most vulnerable in society are targeted. I have the utmost sympathy for unemployed people and the many challenges they face. The article under discussion can only serve to whip up sentiment against them.

K-9

Hillel wrote: »

Thank you for that.
Yes, it could be you, me, or many others. The social contract, which includes welfare payments, underpins our democracy. We do not want a "race to the bottom" where the most vulnerable in society are targeted. I have the utmost sympathy for unemployed people and the many challenges they face. The article under discussion can only serve to whip up sentiment against them.

True, this shouldn't be a race to the bottom, but it's mad if a person on 35k would be better on SW. Remember even with FIS, which brings his net income to about 37k, he has to pay 18k on a mortgage, leaving 19k to spend.

The person on Welfare gets about 23k less about 4k on Capital and a small interest contribution. They basically are both the same.

Hillel

K-9 wrote: »

True, this shouldn't be a race to the bottom, but it's mad if a person on 35k would be better on SW. Remember even with FIS, which brings his net income to about 37k, he has to pay 18k on a mortgage, leaving 19k to spend.

The person on Welfare gets about 23k less about 4k on Capital and a small interest contribution. They basically are both the same.

Yes, if you totally skew the figures by assuming that the unfortunate on the dole has a mortage of €450,000 - €500,000. If he does, and I simply don't believe this, he's in a particulary bad situation - most likely in negative equity to the tune of €150k+ (Hardly liklely to be doing much golfing.)

The example was carefully crafted to talk up life on the dole. I wonder whether we are going to see a deluge of this type of "journalism" as we're being softened up for cuts in Social Welfare? (Maybe, I'm just being paranoid.)

K-9

Hillel wrote: »

Yes, if you totally skew the figures by assuming that the unfortunate on the dole has a mortage of €450,000 - €500,000. If he does, and I simply don't believe this, he's in a particulary bad situation - most likely in negative equity to the tune of €150k+ (Hardly liklely to be doing much golfing.)

The example was carefully crafted to talk up life on the dole. I wonder whether we are going to see a deluge of this type of "journalism" as we're being softened up for cuts in Social Welfare? (Maybe, I'm just being paranoid.)

True, but the real situation, not the tabloid version, is worthy of discussion.

Just doing a very rough calculation, 1,500*12*30 years, is €540,000, including interest. The mortgage could well have been €300/350k which remember, was your average 3/4 bed semi D in or near Dublin.

If the wife was working or they had a "lodger", it isn't that far away from what was happening.

Hillel

K-9 wrote: »

True, but the real situation, not the tabloid version, is worthy of discussion.

Just doing a very rough calculation, 1,500*12*30 years, is €540,000, including interest. The mortgage could well have been €300/350k which remember, was your average 3/4 bed semi D in or near Dublin.

If the wife was working or they had a "lodger", it isn't that far away from what was happening.

Anyone unfortunate enough to be in that situation are among the real victims of the "Celtic Tiger". They have been sold a pup with the active connivance of the FF-Led government. The banks should be forced to give them active support in return for the rescue packages they, i.e. the banks, are getting.

K-9

Hillel wrote: »

Anyone unfortunate enough to be in that situation are among the real victims of the "Celtic Tiger". They have been sold a pup with the active connivance of the FF-Led government. The banks should be forced to give them active support in return for the rescue packages they, i.e. the banks, are getting.

Something the Govt. has to face up to. If banks where perfectly willing to accept incomes like the above for 300/350k mortgages, the mortgage payer need some help too.

Somebody will point out, "sure nobody forced him to sign the mortgage", completely agreed. Nobody forced the Banks to irresponsibly lend and they are being bailed out.

johnnyskeleton

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Firstly Dave,

The Mortgage interest is at the discretion of the CWO.

Secondly as far as I'm aware no-one will get 100% mortgage interest relief. There are guidelines loosely set out by the maximum rent supplements- the lnk above as further details. Interesting that Andy has such an intimate knowledge that this short term relief is automatically renewed each year in practise.

One of the guidelines, which they fairly vigourusly enforce, is that they will not give a MIR to someone who took out a mortgage which they should not have (i.e. either a decadent house or they paid too much for it). If the guy on 35k did buy a €1m house then they wouldn't give him MIR.

However, using Jeacle's mortgage calculator, a mortgage of €275 will have interest payments of €1,200 in a total repayment of €1,500 over 30 years at 5.25%. At 3.25% variable, the mortgage would have to have a 50 year term for those figures to work out.

Mr. Incognito

The example was carefully crafted to talk up life on the dole. I wonder whether we are going to see a deluge of this type of "journalism" as we're being softened up for cuts in Social Welfare? (Maybe, I'm just being paranoid.)

It doesn't seem to be bigoted journalism:

About Andy Mc
Location
Dublin
Occupation
Accountant

Just simple ill informed naivety at best, and a prejudice at worst.

Xiney

I don't know too many people jacking in their jobs to sign on.

Every day I am thankful for the fact that my husband (24) is still employed. I am not. We are surviving, that is clear. We are certainly in a better position than we would be if we were both unemployed.

If we were both unemployed, we would be entitled to the following:

€339.90 Jobseeker's Allowance

Currently, €140 rent supplement (Galway, couple with no children) This is due to decrease to €98 pw since the budget. Please note that our current apartment costs €173 pw (750 pm) and we would have to move. They don't just give you what they give you and let you pay the rest - they're not in business to subsidise luxury living (and rightly so, of course.) However, we're already living in a really basic 640 sqft/60sqm apartment, not sure how much smaller we could go without killing each other :pac:. Besides, I challenge you to find an apartment in Galway for €424 per month. (That's what €98 per week is) Or, if we decided that was impossible and to go with shared accomodation, we'd have to find a double room somewhere for €212 per month (€70 is the shared couple rate right now, due to be reduced to €49)

€100 pm medical card. This is sadly what we pay in medical expenses every month, we max out the dps every month. Not typical of every couple, however.


That's it, though. Works out to 23970.90 per year. It doesn't sound too bad, of course. But factor in the conditions we'd be likely to be living in to get that rent supplement and it might not look so attractive. You bet your ass I'm crossing my fingers for my husband's job.

Xiney

I forgot to add that, while monetarily it may sometimes make sense to be on the dole rather than working (although as previously stated, in order to get the rent allowance you certainly would not be living in a place fit for a king - more likely to be a mildew rat infested hell hole in a ****ty part of town) there are of course many benefits to working, and one that I have not seen mentioned often is the following:

The ability to advance in your career. You work in a job (or jobs) gaining experience in your field and you'll be getting raises. Especially when times get better, and they will, you can join new companies for new and better offers of salary. Ten years off the dole does more for your earning power than ten years on it.

cosecretary

I wrote this article that appeared in the paper and someone had to fight back on behalf of the Irish taxpayer.

Andy are you for real!!I am shocked and horrified by your attitude! Fighting back on behalf of tax payer my ass you are so far out of touch with reality it amazes me!!

Just in case you have had your head in the clouds for the past six months or more hundreds if not thousands of people in this country are losing their jobs every week.

Have you any idea what its like to be made redundant and try to survive and pay a mortgage. My partner was made redundant a few months ago. He was a hardworking architectural technician he was not on fantastic wages by any means even during the boom years but between us we managed buy a house. We have both paid taxes ever since we left college.

Currently my partners benefit amounts to €204.00 thankfully I still have a job for the moment at least but I can tell you things are tough. Most people on this thread apear to think that people are not working and claiming benefit by choice for the vast majority of people this is not the case.

We are just surviving paying the bills and buying food at the moment just about keeping heads above the water and we are some of the lucky ones that at least we are surviving many are not its a far cry from the golfing outings you seem to think that people claiming benefits are going on. Like I said we are surviving but im not sure how long we can sustain it I dread the winter coming again because im honestly not sure how we are going to pay for oil, car insurance etc and its scary.

My partner has applied for over thirty jobs in the past few months of course nothing in architecture at the moment but he is not fussy and will take any job, he has applied for bar jobs, shop jobs, store jobs, hes applied to esb, an post and so many many more but to no avail in fact mostly he hasnt even had a response to his applications. Its demoralising and depressing for people who want to work but there are no jobs.

Your attitude to people on benefits is insulting to me and any other people who are forced to claim benefits in this country. You are tarring all people on benefits with the one brush and its so naieve and misinformed. You seem to begrudge people on benefits the right to survive.

Maybe it would be as well if you gave up your job and went on benefits see how you survive and make room for a job for someone who might actually appreciate how lucky they are to have a job and picking on people not so fortunate!!!

Hillel

cosecretary wrote: »

I wrote this article that appeared in the paper and someone had to fight back on behalf of the Irish taxpayer.

Andy are you for real!!I am shocked and horrified by your attitude! Fighting back on behalf of tax payer my ass you are so far out of touch with reality it amazes me!!
...............

Your attitude to people on benefits is insulting to me and any other people who are forced to claim benefits in this country. You are tarring all people on benefits with the one brush and its so naieve and misinformed. You seem to begrudge people on benefits the right to survive.

cosecretary,
I agree that the article was appalling.
I suggest that it, and this thread, are best left to the dustbin of history.

K-9

Hillel wrote: »

cosecretary,
I agree that the article was appalling.
I suggest that it, and this thread, are best left to the dustbin of history.

Thing is, it doesn't appear to be the lie that it was painted as originally!

Hillel

K-9 wrote: »

Thing is, it doesn't appear to be the lie that it was painted as originally!

It was a carefully constructed set of improbable circumstances to denigrate those unfortunate enough to be unemployed.

K-9

Hillel wrote: »

It was a carefully constructed set of improbable circumstances to denigrate those unfortunate enough to be unemployed.

Read the thread back.

Obviously the golfing thing is a joke, but the substance isn't that far off and improbable.

nuttz

My opinion: The point I took from the letter is that there is obviously way too much money being dished out to people on the dole. €200 a week for a single person on social welfare is way too much, this should be brought in line with that of the UK < €100.
If people can't afford to pay mortgages, let the banks have the houses and for those who lost/loose their houses, they should probably have been renting in the first place. The government shouldn't have to subsidise mortgages which people shouldn't have been given in the first place.

Nodin

nuttz wrote: »

My opinion: The point I took from the letter is that there is obviously way too much money being dished out to people on the dole. €200 a week for a single person on social welfare is way too much, this should be brought in line with that of the UK < €100.
.

They aren't on a 100 Euro. Also, cost of living is different over there.

cosecretary

nuttz wrote: »

My opinion: The point I took from the letter is that there is obviously way too much money being dished out to people on the dole. €200 a week for a single person on social welfare is way too much, this should be brought in line with that of the UK < €100.
If people can't afford to pay mortgages, let the banks have the houses and for those who lost/loose their houses, they should probably have been renting in the first place. The government shouldn't have to subsidise mortgages which people shouldn't have been given in the first place.

Nutz what you are saying is nuts and utter tripe.

Are you suggesting that people unfortunate enough to made redundant should have their homes repossessed and should be offered no help with mortgage interest?

My partner and I have paid taxes our entire lives we got a mortgage based on what had appeared to be two very stable and good jobs. Would you suggest that we should have foreseen the fact that the construction industry would crash and my partner would lose his job (even though our government did not even forsee it!!!!) Get real thousands of people in every industry losing their jobs every week but hey its their fault they should have foreseen it and should not have got a mortgage so they should lose their house.

Thts wonderful thinking where might I ask do you think they should go after houses have been repossessed, park benches, doorways and what about families with children but then again it is getting warmer so maybe park benches would not be that cold at night Im sure they would be fine!

I would not like to see anyone have to go through the hell of redundancy but I would make an exception for idiots like you maybe if you had to experience it you would not begrudge people mortgage relief so that they can keep a roof over their head.

People like you make me ashamed to be irish.

By the way I am not cliaming interest relief we are struggling by ourselves at the moment but I certainly dont begrudge people less fortunate than us trying to keep a roof over their heads.

This country is gone to pot I can only hope you kind are in the minority because frankly you make me want to emigrate.

ixoy

Nodin wrote: »

They aren't on a 100 Euro. Also, cost of living is different over there.

But is it that much more to explain the difference? Is it 50% more? Not from what I've seen.

As an aside - should those who've paid more PRSI be entitled to better welfare? There seems something odd that someone who has worked for twenty years, contributing so much to the government coffers, gets the same as someone who has been bone idle for the same period.

ntlbell

cosecretary wrote: »

Are you suggesting that people unfortunate enough to made redundant should have their homes repossessed and should be offered no help with mortgage interest?

Are you suggesting people who have been frugal throughout the boom years kept within their means, didn't buy a home, rented, who made sound financial decisions should now have to pay for someone else's mortgage?

If I invest in a load of shares and loose my trousers, will you bail me out? I think not.

cosecretary wrote: »

My partner and I have paid taxes our entire lives we got a mortgage based on what had appeared to be two very stable and good jobs. Would you suggest that we should have foreseen the fact that the construction industry would crash and my partner would lose his job (even though our government did not even forsee it!!!!) Get real thousands of people in every industry losing their jobs every week but hey its their fault they should have foreseen it and should not have got a mortgage so they should lose their house.

what you could have done ( I don't know if you did or didn't) is purchase a home 2.5-3 X's your salary, stress tested against interest hikes and if a couple possibly one leaving a job/losing a job/having kids and if most people did this there would be no need to be calming interest relief or anything else, why the people of ireland should bail out people who made poor financial calls is really beyond belief.

Every bubble eventually bursts, assuming this one wouldn't is very naive IMO.

cosecretary wrote: »

Thts wonderful thinking where might I ask do you think they should go after houses have been repossessed, park benches, doorways and what about families with children but then again it is getting warmer so maybe park benches would not be that cold at night Im sure they would be fine!

That's between them and their lender to work out. not the poster.

cosecretary wrote: »

I would not like to see anyone have to go through the hell of redundancy but I would make an exception for idiots like you maybe if you had to experience it you would not begrudge people mortgage relief so that they can keep a roof over their head.

It's not about begrudging people it's about the Irish tax payer not paying for other people's poor financial planning, as I stated previously if you bought wisley within your means, used a 10-20% deposit bought soemthing you could afford and stress tested that you should have plenty of bargaining room with your bank.

cosecretary wrote: »

By the way I am not cliaming interest relief we are struggling by ourselves at the moment but I certainly dont begrudge people less fortunate than us trying to keep a roof over their heads.

This country is gone to pot I can only hope you kind are in the minority because frankly you make me want to emigrate.

A home is not a devine right, it's a previlage.

Hillel

K-9 wrote: »

Read the thread back.

Obviously the golfing thing is a joke, but the substance isn't that far off and improbable.

I have been carefully following the thread from the very beginning.
I cannot begin to understand the problems that our unemployed must now be facing. It upsets me that the author of the article would take such an unfair and unbalanced approach. Social solidarity, how are you.:(

Hillel

ntlbell wrote: »

A home is not a devine right, it's a previlage.

I can claim no knowledge, or insight, into any divine consciousness.
Neither do I know what any Deity might consider a "divine right".

On a human level I do consider having a home a very basic human right.

jimmycrackcorm

Hillel wrote: »

I can claim no knowledge, or insight, into any divine consciousness.
Neither do I know what any Deity might consider a "divine right".

On a human level I do consider having a home a very basic human right.

That's great - I'll go in to my bank manager and tell him that I don't have to pay my mortgage any more because it's my basic human right to have my home.

Macha

Hillel wrote: »

On a human level I do consider having a home a very basic human right.

That's part of the reason we're in this bloody mess :rolleyes:

You can have a house, you just have to rent it if you can't afford to buy it. I sometimes think that most people in this country consider renting one step up from being out on the streets