The Torture Memos

Ludo

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Clinton (and most everybody else) didn't even know we were at war with Islamic terrorists. Eyes Wide Shut ended on 9/11. And American's count even if they were not just "at home," as I have pointed out before.

Well then according to Bush himself, Americans have died in "terrorist" attacks nearly every day for the last 7/8 years between Afghanistan and Iraq...doesn't sound like keeping America safe to me!

Nodin

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Not just Cheney, but several other high level officials stated that they got very good intel from the utilization of enhanced interrogation techniques.

This is the same man who said that Iraq was linked to Al Qaeda, swore blind there was WMD....

Pocono Joe wrote: »

do you think indictments are also due current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), as well as Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan) who were briefed on these methods back in 2002.

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

Pocono Joe

Ludo wrote: »

Well then according to Bush himself, Americans have died in "terrorist" attacks nearly every day for the last 7/8 years between Afghanistan and Iraq...doesn't sound like keeping America safe to me!

Come on Ludo... you know I'm referring to the following (we've been through this before). You're better than that.

1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.

1995
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.

1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

Mr.Micro

As I look out the window of my office I notice it’s a bright, sunny, safe day in April 2009.

Not in Iraq.

Cheney is so crooked that he utters from the side of his twisted mouth. He probably cannot even brush his teeth of a night.

Pocono Joe

My office isn't in Iraq.

Mr.Micro

Pocono Joe wrote: »

My office isn't in Iraq.

Lucky for you.

jank

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Once again, it depends on what you consider torture. Do you personally know anyone who has been waterboarded... I DO!

Let me ask you a question. If you had children who were in imminent danger of dying from a terrorist threat, but one individual linked to the terrorist event has information which would save their lives, would you be so against waterboarding... or would you let your children die?

A hyper bole of a situation that would never occur. If i knew they were in danger I would drive away.....:pac:

But tell, would you be in favour of it to be used on criminal suspects?

I dont know anyone that has been waterboarded, but you dont need to have cancer to know that its bad!

jank

Pocono Joe wrote: »

My office isn't in Iraq.

Well you know that American lives are much more valuable than Iraqi's.....

Pocono Joe

jank wrote: »

A hyper bole of a situation that would never occur. If i knew they were in danger I would drive away.....:pac:

Some days I know what you mean.

But tell, would you be in favour of it to be used on criminal suspects?

If the criminal is the likes of Timothy McVeigh... then YES!

I dont know anyone that has been waterboarded, but you dont need to have cancer to know that its bad!

Try telling your 7 and 11 year old daughters you have it... Remission is great though.

Well you know that American lives are much more valuable than Iraqi's....

I don't agree with you... sorry.

LostinKildare

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Lost..., As I look out the window of my office I notice it’s a bright, sunny, safe day in April 2009.

Oh right, it was a completely different place and time.

Senior government officials were told that extreme measures -- torture -- was not likely to yield any information beyond what lawful interrogation techniques had. They were told this by trained experts from the military, CIA, and FBI, and SERE trainers. But the senior officials ordered that the prisoners be tortured anyway. Now, this barbarism is defended on the ground that these were the dark and scary days after 9/11. But that means excusing intentional brutality out of anger and fear, inflicted by people who were told by experts that there was no reason to use torture. That is wanton cruelty, probably racist, or at least paranoid.

I lived in New York City from 1989 to 2002, and I was in Manhattan on 9/11. I am not divorced from the reality of what happened. It was very very awful, and the following days and weeks were absolutely nightmarish. But I do not believe that we needed to behave like angry, vicious animals in order to defend our country.

Not just Cheney, but several other high level officials stated that they got very good intel from the utilization of enhanced interrogation techniques.

Yeah of course they did. CYA.

And I think Cheney should get the Presidential Medal of Freedom for what he has done.

Don't pick out your ball gown yet. He's probably the most hated man in America.

And as you stated “await his indictment”… do you think indictments are also due current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), as well as Rep. Porter J. Goss (R-Fla.) and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-Kan) who were briefed on these methods back in 2002 (regardless of the fuzzy memory crap Ms “I’m not partisan” Pelosi in spouting right now)? <<<Note to self: I didn't think so... looks like a GOP witch hunt to me.>>>

Apparently this is a partisan issue for you. Not for me. If there's evidence of crimes here, they should be prosecuted, regardless of party affiliation.

If Conservatives retake the government and get abortion outlawed… should they go back and jail every politician, doctor, liberal, participant who partook in pro-choice decisions?

No, that analogy doesn't hold at all. Abortion is legal -- you cannot convict someone for a legal act, even if were later to become illegal. The point is, torture is and was illegal. There is ample evidence of very serious crimes, and our criminal justice system is obligated to investigate and prosecute them without regard to the social position of the accused. You want to sweep it under the rug for political reasons.

jank

I don't agree with you... sorry.

My office isn't in Iraq

OK, sure!

Nodin

Pocono Joe wrote: »

If the criminal is the likes of Timothy McVeigh... then YES!.

"the likes of" rather presumes you know beforehand what he's at, what he's planning to do and so on....which again begs the question if you knew all that, why not use ordinary methods?

Pocono Joe wrote: »

Try telling your 7 and 11 year old daughters you have it... Remission is great though..

And if you torture the wrong guy and he dies, what do you tell his family?

Overheal

We. Are. America. I don't give a rats ass if it helps. We don't ****ing torture.

/Actual opinion

Pocono Joe

I’m hearing they’re now considering taking Franklin D. Roosevelt off US currency, renaming all buildings in which his name is associated, destroying all statues and monuments, and rewriting the history books because of his interning hundreds of thousands of US citizens during WWII. The same is being considered for Abraham Lincoln for suspending Habeas Corpus during the Civil War. (satire)

Don’t tell me what is going on right now is not a political witch hunt! :mad:

oscarBravo

Got a credible source? Or were you being satirical again?

Pocono Joe

oscarBravo wrote: »

Got a credible source? Or were you being satirical again?

Satire again... you might have seen my comment between the 10 second difference in time between when I posted it and then edited it to add the "SATIRE" note, so as not to confuse anyone.

"I’m hearing they’re now considering taking Franklin D. Roosevelt off US currency, renaming all buildings in which his name is associated, destroying all statues and monuments, and rewriting the history books because of his interning hundreds of thousands of US citizens during WWII. The same is being considered for Abraham Lincoln for suspending Habeas Corpus during the Civil War. (satire)"

edit: BUT… This was a comment (with a little extra added by me) was made on the Morning Joe show this morning, (yes I watch MSLSD in addition to FOXY NEWS) to show that what is currently happening could cause a slippery slope that no one wants to go down.

Aside and off topic: Now if you want to see something that should really be classified as criminal, watch this. WARNING… VILE MISUSE OF TAXPAYER FUNDS!
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=7415354

Nodin

Pocono Joe wrote: »

I’m (.....)hunt! :mad:

Funny enough, when faced with two atrocious regimes, both of whom did pose some real threat to the world, I'm fairly sure FD didn't run a torture regime.

oscarBravo

Pocono Joe wrote: »

...what is currently happening could cause a slippery slope that no one wants to go down.

You want to talk about slippery slopes: how would you feel about waterboarding, slamming against walls, sleep deprivation etc being used in county jails across America?

Overheal

oscarBravo wrote: »

You want to talk about slippery slopes: how would you feel about waterboarding, slamming against walls, sleep deprivation etc being used in county jails across America?

Casey Anthony deserved it...

banquo

Funny thing: for the US Politics forum, adsense picked two ads in arabic writing except for two words: torture torture.

banquo

Overheal wrote: »

Casey Anthony deserved it...

Harsh, and - though it made me giggle in a black humour kinda way - possibly a bit over the top.

LostinKildare

Pocono Joe wrote: »

"I’m hearing they’re now considering taking Franklin D. Roosevelt off US currency, renaming all buildings in which his name is associated, destroying all statues and monuments, and rewriting the history books because of his interning hundreds of thousands of US citizens during WWII. The same is being considered for Abraham Lincoln for suspending Habeas Corpus during the Civil War. (satire)"

edit: BUT… This was a comment (with a little extra added by me) was made on the Morning Joe show this morning, (yes I watch MSLSD in addition to FOXY NEWS) to show that what is currently happening could cause a slippery slope that no one wants to go down.

Your slippery slope/"witch hunt" analogies suck. You should think more critically about the talking points you pick up on tv.

Re the WWII internment of Japanese Americans, pretty much everyone accepts that Roosevelt's actions, as well as the Supreme Court's Korematsu decision upholding its constitutionality -- is one of the darkest moments in American constitutional history.

And there's no need to investigate what happened: Roosevelt didn't follow up his decision with denials or didn't hide what he'd done, suppressing documents that came to light many years later. He didn't have to be forced to explain what had been done. All that holds true for Lincoln, too.

Re your friend who was waterboarded, care to tell us the circumstances?

As every day we get more sickening details of how our govt detained both true suspects and people they knew to be innocent and tortured them -- sometimes to death -- let's keep in mind what our former president had to say while this was going on, on his orders:

Statement by the President, June 26, 2003

Today, on the United Nations International Day in Support of Victims of Torture, the United States declares its strong solidarity with torture victims across the world. Torture anywhere is an affront to human dignity everywhere. We are committed to building a world where human rights are respected and protected by the rule of law.

Freedom from torture is an inalienable human right. The Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment, ratified by the United States and more than 130 other countries since 1984, forbids governments from deliberately inflicting severe physical or mental pain or suffering on those within their custody or control. Yet torture continues to be practiced around the world by rogue regimes whose cruel methods match their determination to crush the human spirit. Beating, burning, rape, and electric shock are some of the grisly tools such regimes use to terrorize their own citizens. These despicable crimes cannot be tolerated by a world committed to justice.

Notorious human rights abusers, including, among others, Burma, Cuba, North Korea, Iran, and Zimbabwe, have long sought to shield their abuses from the eyes of the world by staging elaborate deceptions and denying access to international human rights monitors. Until recently, Saddam Hussein used similar means to hide the crimes of his regime. With Iraq's liberation, the world is only now learning the enormity of the dictator's three decades of victimization of the Iraqi people. Across the country, evidence of Baathist atrocities is mounting, including scores of mass graves containing the remains of thousands of men, women, and children and torture chambers hidden inside palaces and ministries. The most compelling evidence of all lies in the stories told by torture survivors, who are recounting a vast array of sadistic acts perpetrated against the innocent. Their testimony reminds us of their great courage in outlasting one of history's most brutal regimes, and it reminds us that similar cruelties are taking place behind the closed doors of other prison states.

The United States is committed to the world-wide elimination of torture and we are leading this fight by example. I call on all governments to join with the United States and the community of law-abiding nations in prohibiting, investigating, and prosecuting all acts of torture and in undertaking to prevent other cruel and unusual punishment. I call on all nations to speak out against torture in all its forms and to make ending torture an essential part of their diplomacy. I further urge governments to join America and others in supporting torture victims' treatment centers, contributing to the UN Fund for the Victims of Torture, and supporting the efforts of non-governmental organizations to end torture and assist its victims.

No people, no matter where they reside, should have to live in fear of their own government. Nowhere should the midnight knock foreshadow a nightmare of state-commissioned crime. The suffering of torture victims must end, and the United States calls on all governments to assume this great mission.

Overheal

Your slippery slope/"witch hunt" analogies suck. You should think more critically about the talking points you pick up on tv.

He's not wrong. We'd have to retroactively have to go after every former president with criminal charges. Wether it be for torture, or secret assassinations. Similarly Obama will one day face criminal charges for some inevitable slight.

Im not saying we should or should not, but you should be aware, that if we go ahead with this, it will change the country in very fundamental ways and will have repercussions that will be felt for decades.

LostinKildare

Overheal wrote: »

He's not wrong. We'd have to retroactively have to go after every former president with criminal charges. Wether it be for torture, or secret assassinations. Similarly Obama will one day face criminal charges for some inevitable slight.

Im not saying we should or should not, but you should be aware, that if we go ahead with this, it will change the country in very fundamental ways and will have repercussions that will be felt for decades.

Great reason not to investigate crimes against humanity. Gimme a break.

My point still stands: neither of his analogies involves a cover up. Neither requires investigation. No need for a "witch hunt."

And hey, maybe Obama will get a blow job from someone other than Michelle and they can go after him while he's still in office.;)

Mr.Micro

Overheal wrote: »

He's not wrong. We'd have to retroactively have to go after every former president with criminal charges. Wether it be for torture, or secret assassinations. Similarly Obama will one day face criminal charges for some inevitable slight.

Im not saying we should or should not, but you should be aware, that if we go ahead with this, it will change the country in very fundamental ways and will have repercussions that will be felt for decades.

What's wrong with change if its for the better? Get all the old skeletons out. The aftermath of 2 terms of Bush has not made the American people feel more secure and if anything the perception of more threatened. More state control, security, paranoia, interference in peoples lives. The US was heading into dangerous waters with possibly even more censorship and control on peoples lives and activities in the name of national security.

No decent, conscience aware person would really agree with the methods and practices of the Bush regime. No trial for suspects, torture and the rest of it. What if it was my son or myself a person might ask? Would I want this done to me or mine? What is the point in having a so called democracy and rights if those basic rights are denied to others. Even US serial killers get a hearing and have rights. No, shame on Bush, Cheney and Rice and all the rest of the pack. Its incredible to have had so many bad individuals in power at one time. They achieved nothing but death and pain for hundreds of thousands, all for what?

JohnMc1

oscarBravo wrote: »

You want to talk about slippery slopes: how would you feel about waterboarding, slamming against walls, sleep deprivation etc being used in county jails across America?

They wouldn't want to go back once they got out. Prison is supposed to be unpleasant.

Waterboarding was approved by Pelosi [despite what she wants to say now] and it is legal according to the Geneva Convention.

Nodin

JohnMc1 wrote: »

They wouldn't want to go back once they got out. Prison is supposed to be unpleasant. .

It's administered - in theory - to get information, not as a penalty. However theres also a rather famous ban against "cruel and unusual" punishment.

What, in your opinion, would be the value of a confession for a crime (such as a robbery) based enirely on a confession obtained by the application of pain and suffering?

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Waterboarding was approved by Pelosi [despite what she wants to say now] .

And how does that make it less wrong? (She didn't 'approve it', she knew it went on and seemed to 'approve of it', which is rather a different thing.)

JohnMc1 wrote: »

and it is legal according to the Geneva Convention.

As has been pointed out numerous times, American courts have prosecuted those who've used that tactic for over 100 years. It's firstly illegal under US law.

Torture is illegal under the Geneva convention. Bush sought to change the definition of torture, and reclassify prisoners so that they were - in theory - not covered by it. However this would be highly unlikely to stand up in court, given that the Geneva convention already covers such persons and states that they" shall nevertheless be treated with humanity".

JohnMc1

Nodin wrote: »

And how does that make it less wrong? (She didn't 'approve it', she knew it went on and seemed to 'approve of it', which is rather a different thing.)

Just pointing out that she's a lying piece of you know what. They had doctors on hand to make sure the prisoners didn't suffer any permanent damage.

Torture is illegal under the Geneva convention.

Hence why Waterboarding is not illegal.

wes

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Hence why Waterboarding is not illegal.

You should let the US know that, as they actually executed Japanese prisoners for Water boarding:

Yes, National Review, We Did Execute Japanese for Waterboarding

Mr.Micro

JohnMc1 wrote: »

Just pointing out that she's a lying piece of you know what. They had doctors on hand to make sure the prisoners didn't suffer any permanent damage.



Is this a return to the dark ages? What about mental issues after a nice bit of waterboarding? A far as a deterrent, they have the death penalty in many states in the US.Has that stopped capital crime? No. The CIA would not be using it if it was not very unpleasant and anybody advocating such practices is IMO, sick and twisted full of self righteous rancour. Imagine the Gardai or any police force being allowed to do waterboarding on any suspect if they believe that answers will/confession will be given up?