FF TDs face down Cowen over bonus

turgon

To support Brianthebards point, the fact that they are in the Dail after such a long time is enough of a long service reward.

In other words they have already been rewarded for apparently good performance by being reelected.

Liam Byrne

turgon wrote: »

To support Brianthebards point, the fact that they are in the Dail after such a long time is enough of a long service reward.

+1

turgon wrote: »

In other words they have already been rewarded for apparently good performance by being reelected.

Since when did "apparently good" come to mean "sh1te" ?

hallelujajordan

joseph brand wrote: »

And of course we all know, 'ye get who ye vote for'! The Irish loved Berties cheeky childish smile, and his ability to convey himself as someone u might bump into, havin' an ould pint o stout down the local.

Ah sure isn't he great!

Electorate = Idiots.

Wrong . . the Irish Electorate loved the Celtic Tiger . . we loved the fact that our salaries were going up while Bertie and the gang were lowering taxes and still posting a record surplus . . We loved the free 25% cash the SSIA gave us. . . Don't kid yourself that we are not all resposible here !

hallelujajordan

brianthebard wrote: »

TD's are there to serve the country, and supposedly not in it for the money. Every time they are elected they are signing a new contract, not keeping the old one. Its like teachers nowadays who are signed to one year contracts and must win their old job back to stay in work, they don't get raises. Why should the TD's? If someone becomes promoted to a ministerial position then perhaps its worth talking about whether they should earn more, but why should a TD who keeps getting elected but doesn't do anything exceptional or get promoted keep getting pay increases, just because he's there X number of years?

I respectfully disagree . . If we are to attract the best people to politics we need to make the position attractive as a career choice. . Why should they give up their time to serve the country altruistically while the rest of us grow our wealth and careers in the private sector ? ?

brianthebard

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I respectfully disagree . . If we are to attract the best people to politics we need to make the position attractive as a career choice. . Why should they give up their time to serve the country altruistically while the rest of us grow our wealth and careers in the private sector ? ?

Because not everyone is motivated by cash? Because they want to give up their time to serve the country? This post smacks of the FF nonsense that they had to increase TD wages to make people less likely to get into politics for the money.

deadhead13

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I respectfully disagree . . If we are to attract the best people to politics we need to make the position attractive as a career choice. . Why should they give up their time to serve the country altruistically while the rest of us grow our wealth and careers in the private sector ? ?

What exactly is unattractive about the current pay and conditions of our politicians? Pay and conditions I might add that few of the present lot of tds could have secured in the private sector. Where are these brilliant politicians? Surely, since Ireland pays its politicians more than most other OECD countries, and has done so far a long time, we would have them already.

hallelujajordan

deadhead13 wrote: »

What exactly is unattractive about the current pay and conditions of our politicians? Pay and conditions I might add that few of the present lot of tds could have secured in the private sector. Where are these brilliant politicians? Surely, since Ireland pays its politicians more than most other OECD countries, and has done so far a long time, we would have them already.

I never said there was anything unattractive about the pay and conditions of our politicians . . . I think their salaries are about right to attract the appropriate skill set. . I just disagree with those who argue on these boards that politicians are vastly overpaid, and should be doing the job for the love of their country . . .

Now it is up to us, the electorate to abandon the family dynasty politics that plague us and move forward to select the right people for the job . .

hallelujajordan

brianthebard wrote: »

Because not everyone is motivated by cash? Because they want to give up their time to serve the country? This post smacks of the FF nonsense that they had to increase TD wages to make people less likely to get into politics for the money.

I presume you are a politician who has abandoned your career and given up your time and potential private sector salary for the love of your country ? If you are not and you work in the private sector like I do I am not sure why you believe its OK to take such a high moral ground on behalf of others . . .

The reality is that the government is the most important business in the country, and it needs well trained, well skilled businesspeople to run it. Most people who fall into this category are motivated by money . .

deadhead13

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I never said there was anything unattractive about the pay and conditions of our politicians . . . I think their salaries are about right to attract the appropriate skill set. .

That was my point, given the excellent pay and conditions, where are all these politicans with the appropriate skill sets. One hasn't led to the other.

maninasia

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I presume you are a politician who has abandoned your career and given up your time and potential private sector salary for the love of your country ? If you are not and you work in the private sector like I do I am not sure why you believe its OK to take such a high moral ground on behalf of others . . .

The reality is that the government is the most important business in the country, and it needs well trained, well skilled businesspeople to run it. Most people who fall into this category are motivated by money . .

I think your logic is way off. I don't think the salary would come into it for many businesspeople who want to get into politics. They already have a pile of money. Berlusconi PM of Italy, Bloomberg Mayor of NY. Usually it's the urge to change things, get their hands on power, try something different.

The way things are now, the government is run by people with no business experience, but they are paying themselves huge salaries. The government has worse than no performance, yet they still keep 95% of their perks. It's time they got fired by their broken shareholders i.e. people of Ireland. Remember, responsibility lies ultimately with elected officials to do what they were entrusted to do well, don't believe the spin 'sure we were all in it together'.

markpb

maninasia wrote: »

I think your logic is way off. I don't think the salary would come into it for many businesspeople who want to get into politics. They already have a pile of money. Berlusconi PM of Italy, Bloomberg Mayor of NY. Usually it's the urge to change things, get their hands on power, try something different.

This is an important distinction - people say we should pay our politicians a lot of money so we get the best. They heard this about capitalism and they think it applies to politics too which is a fallacy. People enter politics for two reasons - power or a desire for change. If someone wants either of those, they'll do it regardless of wages.

Likewise the argument that we should pay them lots to avoid corruption. If someone has a tendency for corruption, they'll probably accept bribes even if they're well paid.

The biggest problem Ireland faces is that we keep voting in bad politicians so there's no incentive for good people to enter politics - they'll be beaten to the post by the son of a TD or a TD who is good for fixing potholes. If they do get elected, they'll quickly realise they won't get voted back in if they don't perform the same crap our current TDs do.

Alcatel

People who are in politics shouldn't be in it for the money, and that's that. And they should be paid in line with the OECD averages for a state of our size, not some internal numbers made from thin air.

And if we cut their wages to the average industrial and managed all expenses and offices and the like from a (hopefully) impartial organisation, would we lose all our politicians? Would we lose all the talent? (Talent? What talent?)

No. Because these people are more fond of the power than the pound. Or they should be.

hallelujajordan

Alcatel wrote: »

People who are in politics shouldn't be in it for the money, and that's that. And they should be paid in line with the OECD averages for a state of our size, not some internal numbers made from thin air.

And if we cut their wages to the average industrial and managed all expenses and offices and the like from a (hopefully) impartial organisation, would we lose all our politicians? Would we lose all the talent? (Talent? What talent?)

No. Because these people are more fond of the power than the pound. Or they should be.

Aside from the fact that it will be impossible to attract a new breed of politician with enhanced skills and experience, do you really believe the current gang would do the job for the average industrial wage ? ? ? I think you're foolin' yourself there . .

maninasia wrote:

I think your logic is way off. I don't think the salary would come into it for many businesspeople who want to get into politics. They already have a pile of money. Berlusconi PM of Italy, Bloomberg Mayor of NY. Usually it's the urge to change things, get their hands on power, try something different.

There is a really significant difference between attracting millionaires into politics for power / change and what I have been suggesting . .

I think we need more politicians who have a business background . . who have held senior positions in succesful private sector organisations. . . who have had formal leadership skills training . . People at this level, in my view will make better politicians than the teachers / family dynasties we have now but will do so as a career choice if it provides the potential to grow their career . .

The Raven.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Aside from the fact that it will be impossible to attract a new breed of politician with enhanced skills and experience, do you really believe the current gang would do the job for the average industrial wage ? ? ?

All the more reason to give them the average industrial wage. It would rid the country of parasites like that, for once and for all.

I think we need more politicians who have a business background . . who have held senior positions in succesful private sector organisations. . . who have had formal leadership skills training . . People at this level, in my view will make better politicians than the teachers / family dynasties we have now but will do so as a career choice if it provides the potential to grow their career . .

There you go again: High-powered businessmen will make better politicians than teachers. What have you got against teachers? Do you think that teachers haven't had 'formal leadership skills training'?

As I have said before, the Government needs people with a wide variety of knowledge and skills, including economic and legal experts, coupled with effectiveness, efficiency, and credible leadership, with more than a tenuous connection with integrity and humanity.

hallelujajordan

The Raven. wrote: »

There you go again: High-powered businessmen will make better politicians than teachers. What have you got against teachers? Do you think that teachers haven't had 'formal leadership skills training'?

Nothing at all against teachers . . However, the answer is No, they do not get formal leadership training . .

As I have said before, running the government is a business . . our biggest business with a huge budget . . People who have worked in business and have had to deliver profit against a large budget are in my view inherently more qualified to successfully carry out this task than people who have not. . .

Ask yourself this question, why is there so much wastage allowed in the public sector . . . money being wasted all over the place ! Why does this not happen in the private sector. . ?

Why did we choose a medic to head up our health service. . why not someone who has run a similar sized organisation efficiently. I know Prof Drumm is not a politician but the analogy is valid. We need to start selecting the right people to run our businesses for us (and by that I mean our government, our health service etc etc)

maninasia

We need people who are not career politicians to be able to get involved in politics. The world has changed and just having the same guys running for election year after year is not giving the Irish government enough up to date skills and experience in different areas. It needs to be shaken up. The presidential system of politics (which has it's own issues), allow relative newcomers and outsiders to come in and make viable bids for the top post without having to depend too much on entrenched interest support.

Fluffybums

For all the bitching and moaning about these over paid, useless shower of village idiots, I would lay money on them all getting back in at the next election with cries of "the alternative is worse".
Nothing will change because the voters keep re-electing the ineffectual, gibbering fools that have their heads so far in the trough that they can't see what is happening in the real world.:mad:

If the voters don't send the message that their behaviour is unacceptable by dumping them at the next and subsequent elections (if the alternative turns out to be worse), nothing will change, especially as the decendents of this shower will be standing for election in years to come (the irish aristocracy).