All TV channels missing, but radio is fine - any ideas?

pipkato

I've 'lost' my four DVB-T TV channels on my Panasonic PZ81 plasma.

On Friday evening I switched the TV on to find some message about new DVB-T channels added and without reading in any detail I did what I've done before and clicked on 'OK'. When everything re-started again I had my DVB radio services but no TV channels at all.

I've tried all the options - manual rescan, auto rescan, powered off TV, unplugged TV, changed aerial etc, but still no sign of the DVB-T TV channels. Everything else on the Panasonic works fine. So no problems with Freesat, or analogue TV.

And, here's the weird thing - I have a Humax DVB-T tuner working in the next room and it receives the channels fine, although TG4 is just showing a test card.

Just wondered if anyone has any idea of what might be going on here?

I don't know if the DVB-T tuner has separate Radio and TV sections and if the TV side could be broken, or if there's some other peculiarity about the DVB-T tests that could shut down TV channels on one particular brand of tuner but leave them available on another.

Thanks.

SRB

You are not alone ! Others have posted similar findings - can this thread be merged Mods ?

Satfinder

Hello,

I can confirm this. As of Friday evening sometime, my PZ81 will no longer tune the DTT signals, but my HTPC still can. My guess is that RTE NL has changed something in the transport stream to stop Freeview receivers tuning in the audio of the test transmissions (so people won't be yakking about not picking up the video and why doesn't RTE do something when the service goes live) and that the PZ81 and possibly other receivers that hitherto could pull in the video are collateral damage.

I hope I'm wrong, because that would mean my one-set-to-tune-them-all solution is now toast.

I suggest anyone pulling in the video ok via their TV tuner resist the temptation to do a rescan (as I and the OP did) just to see what happens, as they may lose all bar the radio channels (as I and the OP did).

Could someone post the links to any other thread discussing this? Or is the discussion buried in one of the stickies?

Thanks

STB

Important thing is not to panic, engineering tweaking.

That model is not a "freeview" receiver for a start. That is only a brand name for british terrestrial. As it is the tuners in the panzi 81 range do more than the spec for freeview. The DVB-T tuner is only pulling in the DTT because the same processor is being used to enable the HD broadcasts from the DVB-S tuner. I would think RTE NL have more to be doing than singling out one manufacturers model for special attention.

It is all down to the spec of the LCD itself. But its clear whatever changes have been made the pani doesnt like from what has been posted. I cant see anything straight off that has changed other than the audio bit rate dropped down to 128.

Transport Stream analysing time.

SRB

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055540758
and also mentioned in the Kippure thread.
Something has changed, if I scan Three Rock on a freeview box, it lists the 8 channels, and their names, but is only storing the radio channels. The channels from Kippure are still there, no picture obviously, but I suspect if I rescanned 61 they'd go too ! Haven't got the laptop with me to look at the TS, but I'm sure someone else on here will be able to see what's changed.

Satfinder

Thanks for the update guys.

I can confirm that at least one PZ81 owner of my acquaintance is STILL receiving the DTT signals, although whether this is because he is not receiving from the same mast as I am (i.e., Three Rock, but I think he is) or because he didn't rescan recently (which he didn't) is unclear.

I'd still advise anyone currently receiving the DTT signals ok on anything other than a PC (which you can hack if things go awry) NOT TO RESCAN for the moment.

I've no access to Freeview signals, but I'd imagine that the UK DTT transmissions have a distinctive signature, and that DVB-T receivers intended for the UK market (i.e., "Freeview receivers") will not pull in signals that deviate too much from that signature.

If this latest change has affected more than just the Pannies, it may be a deliberate action by RTE NL to change the Irish DTT signature to stymie UK-market receivers for the reasons I mentioned in my last post.

Unfortunately, it never occurred to me to snag a full transport stream on my PC before the weekend, so I've nothing to parse to see what has changed in the meantime. Maybe someone else has been able to play "spot-the-difference" on the revised multiplex format, but even if we know what has changed, I can hardly hack my Panny to ignore it.

Fingers crossed that RTE NL will tweak this latest change back out again - do you think if I asked them nicely?.....

psham

Satfinder wrote: »

Thanks for the update guys.

I can confirm that at least one PZ81 owner of my acquaintance is STILL receiving the DTT signals, although whether this is because he is not receiving from the same mast as I am (i.e., Three Rock, but I think he is) or because he didn't rescan recently (which he didn't) is unclear.

I'd still advise anyone currently receiving the DTT signals ok on anything other than a PC (which you can hack if things go awry) NOT TO RESCAN for the moment.

I've no access to Freeview signals, but I'd imagine that the UK DTT transmissions have a distinctive signature, and that DVB-T receivers intended for the UK market (i.e., "Freeview receivers") will not pull in signals that deviate too much from that signature.

If this latest change has affected more than just the Pannies, it may be a deliberate action by RTE NL to change the Irish DTT signature to stymie UK-market receivers for the reasons I mentioned in my last post.

Unfortunately, it never occurred to me to snag a full transport stream on my PC before the weekend, so I've nothing to parse to see what has changed in the meantime. Maybe someone else has been able to play "spot-the-difference" on the revised multiplex format, but even if we know what has changed, I can hardly hack my Panny to ignore it.

Fingers crossed that RTE NL will tweak this latest change back out again - do you think if I asked them nicely?.....

Ive the same panasonic as you and rescanned with same result.. radio but no tv channels.. Friend of mine has same tv but didn,t rescan and still has rte's ect..
As stb say's, its a test... it'll come back i'm sure..

I also have an mpeg2 lcd and i couldn't recieve anything until signal was changed friday.. (all sound /no picture now)

obviously RTE have some way to go until they settle on a fixed standard, and from what i've heard , rte engineers are using boards.ie as a free resource for their trials.. ie as soon as signal is changed engineers log on and see how it affected different people..

Sponge Bob

Good on them . please state the relevant transmitter/channel numbers at all times so willye :cool:

SRB

Kippure 61, Three Rock 54.
Both will only store the radio channels on bog standard Freeview box - rescanned Three Rock on MPEG4 box and it's "lost" it's channel numbers, only the Network ID numbers appearing on all 4 TV channels. Might explain why they aren't being stored on Freeview box as it doesn't "know" where to put them...

togota

just to confirm: no rception near three rock. using a PC to watch dtt. checked my old scans and cant get anything there either. funny enough i get EPG data for all four tv channels but no picture on a recent scan.

STB

Is there a manual tuner on the DVB for the panasonic PZ81 ? Or is it autoscan only ? ( i dont recall seeing one on the 37LZD81B).

I retuned here on a Sony Bravia - and its fine picking up 3Rock epg etc.

Something in the header data of the TS Stream I would think causing the problems.

Perhaps a Pani owner would like to bring to the attention of RTENL ? And see if its a proposed permanent change, and find out a possible solution....

I'm thinking its a way around dealing with cross border/near use of frequencies. Pressli vs Three Rock/Kippure. A network identifier.....

Satfinder

Hi,

Yeah, there's a manual tune option, but I suspect it deletes the channels demultiplexed from that carrier before it scans (say) channel 54. It's what I'd do, anyhow. So don't try it, any PZ81 owners that still have reception!

A manual scan on either channel 54 or 61 still produces nada for me bar radio channels as of last night some time.

SRB

It NOT just PZ81 owners - Don't do a Rescan on anything !!!

slegs

Did a rescan on my Sony night before last when my channels disappeared and it picked up the revised signal with EPG this time. (Mt Leinster 666Mhz)

skycatcher

I did a re-scan on my pani 81z before reading this thread :mad: and lost the tv like everyone else . I get my service from clermaont carn on ch53. I tried a rescan again just now but still only get the radio. The signal strength/quality has improved greatly though (!) - might just be the nice weather though...

Mayo Exile

Did a manual re-scan on my Sony W4000. EPG info had gone. TV stations stored as per normal. EPG info back too. Also noticed that it takes TG4 quite a long time to appear now. It can be 20 or 30 seconds before the test card appears.

STB

Well I saw it first hand last night on the pani 37LZD81B which is the LCD smaller brother of the PZ81.

Have an idea as to whats causing the problem on some makes of idtv. RTE are broadcasting data in the TS stream that is labelling the radio channels 801-804. And have set the TV channels numbering to 001 002 003 & 004 for the TV channels and the pani doesnt know what to do with them from what I can see - doesnt seem to be picking up the logical channel number.

The Uk has a similar iussue with the NIT in Freeview when they first launched.

SRB

They were set like this before though - in the channel list RTE1 is beside BBC1, RTE2 is beside BBC2, TV3 is beside UTV and TG4 beside Ch4 on one of my boxes so when it was first scanned a week or so ago it simply slotted them in along side the existing 1,2,3,4 channels.
On the other boxes, it put them at the end of the channel list, presumably because the slots were taken. It's the same with BBC1 Wales which is also alongside BBC1 NI and RTE1 in that boxes channel menu.

Ah- right - see what you mean, the boxes don't know what to do with "001" - Yes, it may actually just be a mistake.

fat-tony

Did a scan on the Greystones Relay with Transedit. The NIT seems to have changed as it contains additional descriptors. The CAT (PID=1) is missing as is the MPEG audio stream (1204) for TG4.

Someone with more experience of the PID data may be able to shed some light.

I've attached a scan from 05/04 as well as today's one.

pipkato

Thanks to all who replied with confirmation of the problem and suggestions for a solution. I've been trying to get someone in RTE NL but, so far, without success. Let's hope they're aware of the issue.

Apogee

fat-tony wrote: »

Did a scan on the Greystones Relay with Transedit. The NIT seems to have changed as it contains additional descriptors. The CAT (PID=1) is missing as is the MPEG audio stream (1204) for TG4.

Someone with more experience of the PID data may be able to shed some light.

I've attached a scan from 05/04 as well as today's one.

The correction to the EPG data happened around 30/31 March. However, if you look the SDT in your grab from 5/4, the ONID is reported as 12081 in the SDT, but as 8564 in the SDT for the 21/4 grab. The bitrates for the channels seems to have been unlocked, although that could be because TG4 is just a testcard and the excess is being shared out with the other channels.

They seem to be changing the stream data with greater regularity. A few days ago it version 15. Now it's up to version 21. They also appear to be packing in a lot more descriptive information into the tables.

April 4th


April 21


April 21 NIT contd "advanced codec SD digital television"

fat-tony

I first reported the ONID discrepancies last month as being the likely cause of some people having difficulties with the EPG stream on their TVs or STBs. I was able to correct it in DVBviewer for myself and it didn't seem to affect the Mvision box at all. RTE seem to be playing about with the data stream all the time during testing so there's no definitive action you can take until it stabilises. On occasions, during analysis scans with Transedit, I can see some of the audio streams being marked as AAC for a time, so they are obviously trying out various settings.

togota

just to confirm that i was able to get all channels from three rock after my last post. tg4 with test picture. epg working on dvbviewer. might have been that the signal was just down temp.

pipkato

A colleague within RTE suggested that the changes made on Friday last had been reversed and that a complete factory reset of my PZ81 Panasonic to what's called 'Shipping Condition' would solve my problem.

So I had a go at a factory reset and let the Auto-Tune happen again for DVB and Analogue. But the bad news is that I still just got the Radio services on DVB, beginning again at 801. I'm in Dublin 6, so pretty sure I'm getting my signals from (line-of-sight) Three Rock.

Is this problem confined to Panasonic tuners, or are others having the same issue? Has anyone else been in touch with RTE NL about the problem?

watty

It's just transmission tests, not content tests. There is NO point in contacting RTENL at the moment.

This is NOT a public trial.

fat-tony

While I appreciate the point that your TV can't resolve the digital data properly at the moment we don't seem to have a forum where we can feed back formally to RTE about their settings. While RTE are "testing" settings there's probably not a lot of point in random complaints about a service that's not live yet.
I'm sure (I assume anyway) that RTE have people on a panel who are using various types of TV receivers and STBs and are feeding back reception reports.
It would be nice (and I've said this before) if we had a formal contact with technical bods in RTE who could keep us up-to-date with developments (much like the BBC HD technical staff who post on UK forums and produce blogs regularly). It would be useful for us all.:)

SRB

fat-tony wrote: »

I'm sure (I assume anyway) that RTE have people on a panel who are using various types of TV receivers and STBs and are feeding back reception reports.
It would be nice (and I've said this before) if we had a formal contact with technical bods in RTE who could keep us up-to-date with developments (much like the BBC HD technical staff who post on UK forums and produce blogs regularly). It would be useful for us all.:)

Some of the engineering staff DO read this board, I know they probably can't post on it, but they are out there - was talking to one of them just after the DTT transmissions resumed from Three Rock.

Apogee

fat-tony wrote: »

I first reported the ONID discrepancies last month as being the likely cause of some people having difficulties with the EPG stream on their TVs or STBs.

I know - that's why I mentioned it! In your post on the 14th March, DVBViewer was reading 8564 for both the ONID and NID. When I tried on the 4th April (after the EPG fix) it read 12081 for both the NID and ONID.

Since the most recent changes, is DVBViewer reading the correct individual values for ONID and NID?

Irish Bazza

Radio stations numbers 5,6,7 & 8 now showing as 901,902,903 & 904 on Kippure. The number change was automatic update and didn't require a rescan. Also found digital text, by pressing your text button on the radio stations (takes a few seconds). It looks good, much better than BBC DTT text. I like the adverts, a good revenue opportunity for RTE.

Bring on the 4 TV stations soon.

maxg

@Apogee
Could you check the service type in the SDT?
It looks like there was a change from 0x01 (Digital TV) to 0x16 (Mpeg4 SD).

Apogee

TSReader doesn't seem to list the service type in the SDT, other than that shown in the pics under NIT. I've attached the full output exported as a .htm file from TSReader - uploaded as a .zip file.

Apogee

StreamGuru SDT:

maxg

Ok, there was a service type change from 0x01 to 0x16 or 22 in decimal.
That is probably the reason for the problems with the panasonic freesat tv's.
Service type 0x16 is not defined in the firmware.

Service Type
00 = reserved
01(0x01) = Digital Television Service
02(0x02) = digital Radio Sound Service
03(0x03) = Teletext Service
04(0x04) = NVOD Reference Service
05(0x05) = NVOD Time-Shifted Service
06(0x06) = Mosaic Service
07(0x07) = reserved
08(0x08) = reserved
09(0x09) = reserved
10(0x0A) = Advanced Codec Digital Radio Sound Service
11(0x0B) = Advanced Codec Mosaic Service
12(0x0C) = Data Broadcast Service
13(0x0D) = Reserved for Common Interface Usage
14(0x0E) = RCS Map
15(0x0F) = RCS FLS
16(0x10) = DVB MHP service
17(0x11) = MPEG-2 HD Digital Television Service
18(0x12) = reserved
19(0x13) = reserved
20(0x14) = reserved
21(0x15) = reserved
22(0x16) = Advanced Codec SD Digital Television Service
23(0x17) = Advanced Codec SD NVOD Time-Shifted Service
24(0x18) = Advanced Codec SD NVOD Reference Service
25(0x19) = Advanced Codec HD Digital Television Service
26(0x1A) = Advanced Codec HD NVOD Time-Shifted S.
27(0x1B) = Advanced Codec HD NVOD Reference Service

fat-tony

Apogee wrote: »

I know - that's why I mentioned it! In your post on the 14th March, DVBViewer was reading 8564 for both the ONID and NID. When I tried on the 4th April (after the EPG fix) it read 12081 for both the NID and ONID.

Since the most recent changes, is DVBViewer reading the correct individual values for ONID and NID?

As of right now (12:41) Transedit is reporting 12801 decimal for the NID and 8564 decimal for the ONID. DVBviewer is set to 8564 and is NOT picking up EPG info on any channels (TV or radio) EXCEPT RTE2 and TG4. Looking at the stream in Transedit I can see a linkage entry (0x4A - only for the service IDs for RTE2 and TG4) which is displaying a link to an ONID value of 8564 decimal. The service IDs for the other six channels do not have this linkage entry and are not displaying an EPG in DVBviewer. The EPG data is present, though, for all eight services. It's just that DVBviewer is not able to extract them automatically except for RTE2 and TG4.
Obviously all combinations of settings are being explored by RTE.

Satfinder

Maxg's analysis looks correct, and supports my theory that the change in the stream contents last week was intended to stop UK receivers detecting the television channels.

We're unlikely to get RTE NL to change this. The specs for the minimum receiver requirements are here but I've seen no published specifications for the format of the transmitted stream. Presumably any STB manufacturer has to infer this from the receiver spec.

I've not had the energy to look at the DVB-T spec to check (life is too short) but if "Advanced Codec" means "H.264" and/or "AAC" in their jargon, RTE NL are just complying with the spec in changing the service type to 16H, thereby advising all the MPEG2-only boxes (and the PZ81s plus a few other iDTV sets) that they cannot decode the video.

One byte in a conditional branch in the PZ81 firmware seems to be stopping us picking up the television channels. If only we could figure out which one.

Hissing Sideban

It would be very cynical of anyone to suggest that it was no coincidence that the DTT TV went into a different 'test' mode on the same day Boxer officially pulled the plug leaving RTE in the Lurch!

maxg

@Satfinder
Advanced Codec SD means mpeg4 AVC H.264 level3 for SD.
Due to the specs RTE can choose between 0x01 and 0x16. If the target is to stop UK mpeg2 receiver from showing such channels after a scan in the channel list they will use 0x16.
The problem is all mpeg2 receiving units with working neotion cams are also switched off after a scan with 0x16 and all mpeg4 receivers which are not fully following the dvb specs.

bob11

Hi there,

Just tried to set up my new PZ81 tonight for the first time ...
In Dublin, Rathmines here and like others here, I can only get the 4 radio channels as well ...

Is the general view here that RTE have changed the format of the broadcast stream so that TVs like mine will no longer work ?

What would be the possible logic for this ?

Very disaappointed here as the only reason for buying the PZ81 up north was the dual functions of FreeSat and MPEG4 ..

Appreciate any assistance or views ...

Cheers,

Bob

SRB

I wouldn't panic, as Watty has pointed out, these are tests, maybe they've been taken aback by the amount of people watching or 'phoning to ask "why isn't my TV/Set Top Box storing the channels ?". Maybe they want to hide them simply because they are tests...

STB

Satfinder wrote: »

Maxg's analysis looks correct, and supports my theory that the change in the stream contents last week was intended to stop UK receivers detecting the television channels.

We're unlikely to get RTE NL to change this. The specs for the minimum receiver requirements are here but I've seen no published specifications for the format of the transmitted stream. Presumably any STB manufacturer has to infer this from the receiver spec.

The number of people with idtvs far outweighs the number of people in cross border areas. The neotion cam was seen as a solution for legacy tvs by the initial company that won the commercial dtt contract. Being obstructive for digital switch on would not make sense.

Dont forget that this change has obstructed TVs that CAN decode mpeg4 transmissions. Not just idtv's that can be fixed with a credit card sized object that fits in the back of your TV.

They are engineering tests, these boards are being read by TV engineers (as well as the radio tx engineers perhaps!) I have no doubt that they will tweak it or go back to an earlier version.

Apogee

maxg wrote: »

If the target is to stop UK mpeg2 receiver from showing such channels after a scan in the channel list they will use 0x16.
The problem is all mpeg2 receiving units with working neotion cams are also switched off after a scan with 0x16 and all mpeg4 receivers which are not fully following the dvb specs.

Well spotted on the SDT change. Are you a DVB engineer?

Ultimately, it's hard to imagine they would risk blanking non-compliant mpeg4 receivers or TVs simply to prevent the channels scanning in on a Freeview box.

For any other insomniacs, the full DVB-SI specification is attached.

"Digital Video Broadcasting (DVB); Specification for Service Information (SI) in DVB systems - DVB Document A038r5 April 2009"

maxg

The target not to disturb dvb-t reception in a neighbour country has a much higher priority than a manufactorer like Panasonic who is not willing to follow the specs in EN300468.
I guess the blokes in NI with freeview equipment wouldn't be very amused if they get the ROI channels at top of their channel lists after a scan without the possibility of watching them.

SRB

That DID happen with the MPEG2 trial - a lot of juggling and swapping was going on in the UK DTT system which meant viewers had to rescan quite a few times in so many months and there were instances of RTE1 displacing BBC1 RTE2, BBC2 etc, etc around the border. One of my boxes now has RTE1 listed as 001 alongside BBC1 NI and BBC1 Wales, which also are 001 (Good ole Nokia, eh !). This kind of issue was one of the reasons why the signal was so heavily nulled in the MPEG2 trial as a large number of complaints, from the UK, could have resulted in it being turned off. It's perfectly possible that people scanning in the last few weeks have found the same thing happening again....

STB

maxg wrote: »

The target not to disturb dvb-t reception in a neighbour country has a much higher priority than a manufactorer like Panasonic who is not willing to follow the specs in EN300468.
I guess the blokes in NI with freeview equipment wouldn't be very amused if they get the ROI channels at top of their channel lists after a scan without the possibility of watching them.

No doubt its a fine balancing act. However RTE NL are charged with the responsibility of digital switch on for the whole country to the extent that ASO is a formality. This should be a smooth transition. Whilst I agree that it is the manufacturers responsibility to comply with certain specs most dont (hey most dont even comply with dvb ci open standards). Eitherway, that is irrelevant in a country that has being importing (and continues to) mpeg2 idtvs. The enabling of these legacy idtvs at a minimal cost to the consumer will be paramount in preference to whether or not we confuse people in cross border areas (which can be sorted out locally anyhow at the local tx sites!). The french have learnt this in their rollout to a population 12 times our size.

skycatcher

Why would RTE be so concerned about their digital transmissions "crossing" the border to NI? They dont seem to worry that the majority of NI population can get their analogue TX without a prob! Do they not like to tell their advertisers that they can reach another 1.5m people?

maxg

The problem is the uk freeview boxes are not mpeg4 compatible. If RTE choose service type 0x01 every bloke in NI with mpeg2 freeview equipment and additional reception of a ROI transmitter would get 4 dead channels at top of the channel list after a scan.

STB

maxg wrote: »

The problem is the uk freeview boxes are not mpeg4 compatible. If RTE choose service type 0x01 every bloke in NI with mpeg2 freeview equipment and additional reception of a ROI transmitter would get 4 dead channels at top of the channel list after a scan.

Are you telling me that the tuners in IDTVs have now been made redundant ?

First off, Freeview boxes are not our problem. DTT rollout is for the whole of the Republic of Ireland.

Secondly IDTVs can be enabled via Neotion Cams. So there is no need for a STB. Dont attempt to confuse. Everyone knows what technology we are using. Every bloke in NI will need an MPEG4 box regardless of what is broadcast in the TX stream. Infact left as at digital television service allows those in NI to use a transcode CAM also. There is no advantage in sending out a signal to the whole of Ireland for MPEG2 tuners to ignore the signal. There WILL be more casulaties of this including MPEG4 enabled TVs that varied slightly from the standard. That decision should be the consumers. Its not their fault that they have bought something that is not compatiable or is not fully opened.

Unnecessary expenditure and maximum usage is the call of the day. There is no need to lock down idtvs that can be enabled cheaply. The French saw this as a solution for its population of 61 million.

I think we will also benefit from it.

SRB

STB wrote: »

First off, Freeview boxes are not our problem. DTT rollout is for the whole of the Republic of Ireland.

Eh, taking that one step further, RTE could equally say TV's designed for the UK Freeview market aren't their problem either. MPEG 4 is the Irish standard. DTT is only now being rolled out in Ireland, anyone who bought a set before that, well, em, tough.

STB

The quantity of legacy Tv's on the market must also be taken into account. From day one, all unnecessary obstacles should be removed in my opinion. Disabling upgradable tuners at transmission source is prohibitive to DSO and a hinderence to ASO. If there are concerns for overflow areas these should be handled at those neighbouring local tx sites - not rolled out by default at the expense of the whole country. Moving to digital is a gradual process and initially the switch on should afford the Irish consumer every opportunity to do so.

There is a case to be made for changes to the service type in the future, not in the transitional period of digital switch on and analogue switch off. In the interim there are cheap solutions available for IDTVs other than a set top box. Yes MPEG4 is the standard, MPEG2 TVs can have their tuners enabled quite simply. That should be a consumer choice for legacies that exist. Going forward an awareness campaign will sort out future purchases.

watty

A setbox can be as cheap as a Neotion adaptor and is a much higher quality solution. The MPEG4 to MPEG2 re-encoder looking like a CAM is a kludge.

Compared with the actual number of TVs in use, the number of iDTVs without UPC/SKY setboxes bought with any intent of Digital Terrestiral reception is tiny.

STB

watty wrote: »

A setbox can be as cheap as a Neotion adaptor and is a much higher quality solution. The MPEG4 to MPEG2 re-encoder looking like a CAM is a kludge.

Compared with the actual number of TVs in use, the number of iDTVs without UPC/SKY setboxes bought with any intent of Digital Terrestiral reception is tiny.

Doesnt matter how many are/are not connected to a UPC Sky Box. You do not need to subscribe to cable or sat companies in order to receive PSB Channels. For a start ALL Tvs should be platform friendly in this day and age. The option to update a legacy idtv via the method widely used in France would give more options to the consumer. You cant just ignore solutions. Solutions must be inclusive for all elements of society. This is not a commercial service, its a PSB FTA service.

The STB will not be cheaper than the CAM. You can take that as a given, Watty. The French havent managed to do it and they have a massive population of consumers - €100 being the lowest unit price - not even taking into account that this doesnt include MHEG5, Nordig Ex req etc.