M24 Motorway?

Steviemak

I just want to throw this out to get people's reactions - obviously hypothetical and not likely to happen.

With the current financial situation - what do you think - instead of building a 100KM M20 right now how about we build a 117km motorway from the M9 outside Waterford to the N7 SSR of Limerick along the current N24?

This would obviously link the South East / Waterford / South Tipp with Limerick and the Atlantic corridor but also be used to connect cork with both limerick and Waterford at Cahir.

The Distances are roughly

N20 Limerick - Cork 100Km
N24 / M8 Limerick - Cork 130Km

N25 Waterford - Cork 120Km
M8 / N24 Waterford - Cork 140Km

Obviously there is extra journey times here but 20Km is only 10mins on a Motorway.

The cost benefit must be considered. Then when the country gets back on its feet an M20 would be built. But the South East would have its link to the west via south Tipp already built.

In the future we may build 3 motorways M20, M25 and M24 - Should the M24 come first?

Amtmann

My reaction is no. I'm a fairly regular user of the N24 and I just don't see the merit. I'm not entirely sold on the M20 either though, but I'm certainly more for it than either an M24 or M25. I do like the idea, however, of combining the M8 with the M20 to get maximum use out of the M8, say from Dunkettle to junction 13, with the M20 branching off to Limerick. But as has been pointed out here plenty of times, the current N20 would still need substantial realignments and upgrading.

The N24...is not as crucial a route as it first seems to be. It passes through some stagnant one-horse towns and villages. I suspect very few journeys are made on it daily from Waterford to Limerick. That said, it too needs to be realigned in several places, but wide single carriageway would suffice in my opinion.

road_high

I never understood why this so-called Atlantic Corridor was going down via Cork.
Of course still upgrade the N20 and N8 (already done) and allow the Atlantic corridor take the logically shortest via the N24 across from Limerick to Waterford and Rosslare.
I think motorway would be overdoing it a bit though. As Furet points out a good quality S2 would suffice (in fact anyhting would be better than parts of whats there at present between Cahir and Tipp town especially).

There are actually a few nice upgraded sections near Limerick done about 8 or 9 years ago and work very well. And there are also 2+1 sections around Cahir and Piltown which work well now.
And good quality bypasses of Tipp, Clonmel and Carrick on Suir with no roundabouts would also suffice.

Stupido

Lads, N24 is to be upgraded to 2+2 / HQDC along its entire length (a la N4 Sligo to Longford).

You will pick up on this from the development plans.


When this will happen god only knows, but at least it is a plan.

Irish and Proud

Stupido wrote: »

Lads, N24 is to be upgraded to 2+2 / HQDC along its entire length (a la N4 Sligo to Longford).

You will pick up on this from the development plans.


When this will happen god only knows, but at least it is a plan.

The M4 should be extended to Longford IMO, where it would split into the proposed 2+2 to Sligo (N4) and S2 to Castlebar (N5). Was on the N4 Eastern approach to Longford many a time in the 1990's and the traffic (even then) would have justified a motorway.

About the M24 - I guess no is the answer - the M20 is the obvious one to do IMO (linking our second and third cities)!

Regards!

D.L.R.

mfitzy wrote: »

I never understood why this so-called Atlantic Corridor was going down via Cork.

Because thats where 300,000 people live :pac:

its not about taking someone off the boat at Rosslare and getting them up to Letterkenny as fast as possible. Its about connecting the people of Ireland.

Steviemak

D.L.R. wrote: »

Because thats where 300,000 people live :pac:

its not about taking someone off the boat at Rosslare and getting them up to Letterkenny as fast as possible. Its about connecting the people of Ireland.

Thats kinda why i proposed the M24 as it links every county in munster (even north Kerry) with HQ links. Being essentially the same length as the M20 it may make sense to do first.

fricatus

D.L.R. wrote: »

Because thats where 300,000 people live :pac:

Unlike the south-east of course, where nobody lives... :rolleyes:

Come on... there's about that number in Waterford and the southern parts of Wexford, KK and Tipp, the areas that would use the N24 to travel to the west.

D.L.R. wrote: »

its not about taking someone off the boat at Rosslare and getting them up to Letterkenny as fast as possible. Its about connecting the people of Ireland.

Ah here! That's a ridiculous argument. The "people of Ireland" need to be connected to the people of the UK, France, etc. via the ferries too, and even if they didn't, this country desperately needs a good road link from the ferryport at Rosslare to its main population centres. The obvious backbone of that link is via Waterford, Limerick and Galway.

Chris_533976

N24 will be 2+2 probably. No need for motorway.

Amtmann

I would say no need for 2+2 either.

road_high

D.L.R. wrote: »

Because thats where 300,000 people live :pac:

its not about taking someone off the boat at Rosslare and getting them up to Letterkenny as fast as possible. Its about connecting the people of Ireland.

Cork will be linked via the M8 and M20. I think thats the OP's point.

Chris_533976

Furet wrote: »

I would say no need for 2+2 either.

I'd say no too, but I guess its the old adage here, if you're doing a big (Limerick - Waterford) S2, you might as well make it a 2+2.

Steviemak

Chris_533976 wrote: »

I'd say no too, but I guess its the old adage here, if you're doing a big (Limerick - Waterford) S2, you might as well make it a 2+2.

One bit of infrastructure that would join all the good work done by the dublin to urban routes.

It would link the M9, M8, M7, M18, M6 and M17 (all either built or under construction) and obviously the cities of Waterford, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Sligo. And major towns of Clonmel, Cahir, Ennis, Tuam etc

The more I think about it...:D

Bards

Steviemak wrote: »

One bit of infrastructure that would join all the good work done by the dublin to urban routes.

It would link the M9, M8, M7, M18, M6 and M17 (all either built or under construction) and obviously the cities of Waterford, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Sligo. And major towns of Clonmel, Cahir, Ennis, Tuam etc

The more I think about it...:D

...and since when is Sligo a City???????????????????

Amtmann

'City' is a pretty meaningless term in Ireland really. Waterford certainly isn't a city in the commonly understood modern sense of the word, and neither is Kilkenny, nor Sligo.

mysterious

Oh the my city is bigger than your city rant is going to bomb on this thread

I can see the Waterfordonians coming to their defenses. My city only BLEEDING massive!!!!!



Takes the nearest exit...:D

Amtmann

Well I would hope that everyone here is smart enough not to fall into that frankly stupid and parochial trap.

Hogzy

Furet wrote: »

'City' is a pretty meaningless term in Ireland really. Waterford certainly isn't a city in the commonly understood modern sense of the word, and neither is Kilkenny, nor Sligo.

Lol Swords and Bray have a larger population that kilkenny as well as sligo

fricatus

Bards wrote: »

...and since when is Sligo a City???????????????????

Furet wrote: »

'City' is a pretty meaningless term in Ireland really. Waterford certainly isn't a city in the commonly understood modern sense of the word, and neither is Kilkenny, nor Sligo.

mysterious wrote: »

Oh the my city is bigger than your city rant is going to bomb on this thread

I can see the Waterfordonians coming to their defenses. My city only BLEEDING massive!!!!!



Takes the nearest exit...:D

Hogzy wrote: »

Lol Swords and Bray have a larger population that kilkenny as well as sligo

Oh for the love of God would the lot of ye cop on? :mad:

Steviemak

Why do all threads have to veer into pettiness:mad: - Fair enough Sligo is not a city. I was trying to illustrate the joining of population centres along the south and west coast - Sligo being a major one in the north west and most probably as far as Ireland's future motorway network will go in that region. (Bar the Derry Letterkenny corridor - which will be NI and Ire project)

Amtmann

But Steviemak and Fricatus, it is not 'petty' to point out that many so-called 'population centres' in this country aren't very populous at all. Indeed, it's especially important to mention this fact when someone proposes a motorway along the N24 of all roads! By all means, let's have the discussion; but the exchange is a fruitless one unless we address the critical issue, which is demand. We can't tip-toe around this for fear of offending someone's misheld parochial sense of pride. To do so would be to behave like an ostrich.

Hogzy

Furet wrote: »

To do so would be to behave like an ostrich.

:D:D:D:D

invincibleirish

Furet wrote: »

But Steviemak and Fricatus, it is not 'petty' to point out that many so-called 'population centres' in this country aren't very populous at all. Indeed, it's especially important to mention this fact when someone proposes a motorway along the N24 of all roads! By all means, let's have the discussion; but the exchange is a fruitless one unless we address the critical issue, which is demand. We can't tip-toe around this for fear of offending someone's misheld parochial sense of pride. To do so would be to behave like an ostrich.

Well said Furet but sadly this discussion is impossible to have when our people & politicians are so welded to the parish pump. Whether its empty hospitals, rural motorways or antiquated railway line upgrades, the goal is never appropriate resource allocation but defending and winning things for ones locale irregardless of need or not. There is no such thing as a bigger picture.

mysterious

my village has about 400 hundred people, but of course i STILL ONLY THINK IT'S BLEEDIN MASSIVE!:pac:

There are four cities in Ireland outside Dublin. (in Irish terms)

• Cork
• Limerick
• Galway
• Waterford

In real terms

None of the cities above make it near the EU standards in city defention, maybe Cork might be in the bunch. Thats it.

But I do see the pettyness go to all lows, when you have the local diehards going well if you include the entire SE is only bleedin massive then:rolleyes: Let's get real people

Galway and Waterford city centres are tiny.


These are just the realties of how so called urban Ireland.

Bards

...so what is wrong with calling posters up on blatant lying when it comes to the local Government act 2001?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0037/sched5.html#sched5

am I being accused of being parochial for pointing this out?

This is an Irish Thread on an Irish forum FFS and I resent the accusations made by other posters

Sponge Bob

everybody calm down

we are looking at d2 2+2 no hard shoulder for the remainder of the system , eg n24 n17 ( north of Tuam) n15 N4 west of edgeworthstown , N2 border , n13 border , n16 at a push if the northern end is done and n25 dungarvan - midleton etc ...probably the n21

This is only 'modern wide s2 in effect and with the junctions mitigated .

All the HQ stuff is either done , being built, or languishing in the round of ppps that are stuck out there with no finance, the one exception being the DOOR which will be HQ and a few bits of N11 maybe N4 Mullingar - Edgeworthstown and N15 just north of Sligo .

Many D2 jobs will be cheap retrofits of wide s2 like around Bundoran and Mooncoin and Knock

We have largely completed the good motorways and are now going to build some motorway 'lite' to grid the country up properly ....between now and 2030 that is

Amtmann

Bards wrote: »

...so what is wrong with calling posters up on blatant lying when it comes to the local Government act 2001?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0037/sched5.html#sched5

I would say that these are the Ozymandius-like claims of a parochial gombeen government. Cork (maybe barely) is a city - in, as I said, the commonly understood modern sense of the word.
Waterford is a town.
The statute book can call it what it likes; but the bottom line is that Waterford has a population of only 50,000, which is tiny in an EU context. I don't know why people from Waterford feel diminished by that fact. It's sad really. Do you feel lessened when people say that Waterford isn't a city? Do you feel hurt?
Why?
Why does it matter? It is simply pride of the worst sort, utterly foolish and unproductive. Making the Irish statute book your floating piece of wood in the sea and desperately clinging to it is Waterford's own variant of the Creationist's "it's in the Bible, so it's true!" delusion.
The most that Waterford is is an honourary city, a titular city, a medieval city. And that's cool. It's a grand old town in my book. You don't need to be connected to Limerick by a motorway, however.

Bards

Furet wrote: »

I would say that these are the Ozymandius-like claims of a parochial gombeen government. Cork (maybe barely) is a city - in, as I said, the commonly understood modern sense of the word.
Waterford is a town.
The statute book can call it what it likes; but the bottom line is that it has a population of only 50,000, which is tiny in an EU context. I don't know why people from Waterford feel diminished by that fact. It's sad really. Do you feel lessened when people say that Waterford isn't a city? Do you feel hurt?
Why?
Why does it matter? It is simply pride of the worst sort, utterly foolish and unproductive. Making the Irish statute book your floating piece of wood in the sea and desperately clinging to it is Waterford's own variant of the Creationist's "it's in the Bible, so it's true!" delusion.
The most that Waterford is is an honourary city, a titular city, a medieval city. And that's cool. It's a grand old town in my book. You don't need to be connected to Limerick by a motorway, however.

my whole point, If I were from Cork or Dublin we wouldn't be having this discussion. I would have been able to point out that Sligo wasn't a city, without recourse, but just becasue I publish where I am from, (unlike others who just say "Ireland" ) I am being accused of being parochial. This is not fair, and not right.

Why do you say that Waterford is an honourary City ( where's your facts?) If that is the case therefore Limerick & Galway are both honorary cities too. We all have city councils, City Mayors, Galway even has the same number of city councillors as Waterford

I live in Ireland, I live within Irish Law, what is the point of having a statute book if we can have a la carte laws, and are allowed to pick and choose what laws we like and don't like.

Gruffalo

mysterious wrote: »

my village has about 400 hundred people, but of course i STILL ONLY THINK IT'S BLEEDIN MASSIVE!:pac:

There are four cities in Ireland outside Dublin. (in Irish terms)

• Cork
• Limerick
• Galway
• Waterford

So Kilkenny does not exist now? Best of luck telling them that.

Amtmann

Bards wrote: »

my whole point, If I were from Cork or Dublin we wouldn't be having this discussion. I would have been able to point out that Sligo wasn't a city, without recourse, but just becasue I publish where I am from, (unlike others who just say "Ireland" ) I am being accused of being parochial. This is not fair, and not right.

Not true. It doesn't matter where you say you are from. What matters here are the perceived delusions of grandeur you seem to have for Waterford as an urban area. You seem to want parity of esteem for all the cities (such as when you place Waterford on a par with Limerick and Galway).
But not all cities are equal.
While Limerick and Galway are also very small in an EU context (as is Cork), they are considerably larger than Waterford. So they are not equal in size, they are not equal economically, they are not equal in importance, and they cannot be equal in terms of infrastructure. You are drawing false parallels, and you refuse to see that. And, with respect, it is childish foot stomping to wail about the unfairness of it all.

Why do you say that Waterford is an honourary City ( where's your facts?) If that is the case therefore Limerick & Galway are both honorary cities too. We all have city councils, City Mayors, Galway even has the same number of city councillors as Waterford

I should not have asserted that Waterford is an honourary city. I should have written that that's the most that could be said for it, if someone wanted to argue the point. Waterford received its city charter from a Norman king in the 1100s, back in the day when settlements of 10,000 were considered massive. I hope you can appreciate that humanity's sense of scale has changed a lot since then. Somehow Waterford managed to retain its historic title as a city - but not - obviously - its importance. I view this titular retention as an honour - a tip of the hat, if you will, to former times. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I live in Ireland, I live within Irish Law, what is the point of having a statute book if we can have a la carte laws, and are allowed to pick and choose what laws we like and don't like.

See, this is a straw man. Irish Law doesn't have anything to do with the decision to provide certain forms of infrastructure, which is what this discussion is supposed to be about.* Of course you can keep the title 'city' behind the word 'Waterford'. No-one has suggested taking that away. I myself refer to Waterford as a 'city' in every day speech too; but economically, demographically, financially, culturally, infrastructurally, I know that it isn't a city in the modern sense of the word. (I mean, If Bono received an honourary doctorate in Law from Trinity College, I'd hope you wouldn't hire him to defend you in a murder trial.) In terms of the provision of infrastructure, population and demand should be the only deciding factors. Whether a place is listed as a 'city' or not on some piece of paper does not matter. That is the issue that you seem to struggle with Bards: Nomenclature Does Not Matter. Demographics do. You need to acknowledge that.

The bottom line is that your reaction seems to be primarily emotional rather than rational. You seem to take it personally. In your heart of hearts, can you say that that isn't true?

*And no, this discussion has not veered off topic. It is very much on topic. We cannot discuss whether or not to build an M24 without addressing the numbers of people that would use it, and this in turn means that questions of scale and questions of national importance must be raised. This has naturally offended certain people, but that is their problem, because their reaction is emotional and irrational, rather than strategic.

Irish and Proud

Right! - Enough of this meaningless BS about cities!!! :mad:

Now, let's talk about the N24!

Steviemak

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Right! - Enough of this meaningless BS about cities!!! :mad:

Now, let's talk about the N24!

Thanks

I agree a Motorway is probably too much to connect Limerick and Waterford 2+2 would more than suffice. Maybe even wide S2 with bypasses.

However, maybe I haven't been putting my point across clearly -

If we are building a brand new Motorway from Limerick to Cork (and it is deemed necessary by planners etc) then why not instead build a different Motorway that uses the current network more efficiently. The new M24's purpose will not be just to connect Limerick to Waterford but will also become the new Limerick to Cork Rd and Cork to Waterford rd. Therefore traffic levels on this new road will be higher than the M20 that would purely serve Limerick to Cork.

All three places (dare i use cities;) ) connected by one piece of instructure instead of unnecessarily building 3 ie a new 2+2 N24, an M20 and 2+2 N25 or M25 (not sure of latest plans for N25). Each place isn't big enough to justify individual connections in my opinion.

Gruffalo

Furet wrote: »

I would say that these are the Ozymandius-like claims of a parochial gombeen government. Cork (maybe barely) is a city - in, as I said, the commonly understood modern sense of the word.
Waterford is a town.
The statute book can call it what it likes; but the bottom line is that Waterford has a population of only 50,000, which is tiny in an EU context.

Ireland has a tiny population in an EU context. Does that mean that we are not a proper country? Maybe we should just be the suburb of Ireland.

I don't know why people from Waterford feel diminished by that fact. It's sad really. Do you feel lessened when people say that Waterford isn't a city? Do you feel hurt?

Perhaps they feel like you think that you are above the laws of Ireland and your ego needs to be brought back in check. Waterford City is a city.


Why does it matter? It is simply pride of the worst sort, utterly foolish and unproductive.

Look in the mirror. If it does not matter why are you making a deal out of it. Why can you not accept the proper title?

Making the Irish statute book your floating piece of wood in the sea and desperately clinging to it is Waterford's own variant of the Creationist's "it's in the Bible, so it's true!" delusion.

You are right, no place for law in a civilised country.


The most that Waterford is is an honourary city, a titular city, a medieval city. And that's cool. It's a grand old town in my book. You don't need to be connected to Limerick by a motorway, however.

Waterford is a city. When are people like you going to accept that city status is not dependent on population? You can take your book and chuck out the window because, despite what you think, your opinion does not have legal status in this country. Buy a statute book, much more useful.

Here is a city that would really irritate people like you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Davids

invincibleirish

Steviemak wrote: »

Thanks

I agree a Motorway is probably too much to connect Limerick and Waterford 2+2 would more than suffice. Maybe even wide S2 with bypasses.

However, maybe I haven't been putting my point across clearly -

If we are building a brand new Motorway from Limerick to Cork (and it is deemed necessary by planners etc) then why not instead build a different Motorway that uses the current network more efficiently. The new M24's purpose will not be just to connect Limerick to Waterford but will also become the new Limerick to Cork Rd and Cork to Waterford rd. Therefore traffic levels on this new road will be higher than the M20 that would purely serve Limerick to Cork.

All three places (dare i use cities;) ) connected by one piece of instructure instead of unnecessarily building 3 ie a new 2+2 N24, an M20 and 2+2 N25 or M25 (not sure of latest plans for N25). Each place isn't big enough to justify individual connections in my opinion.

The purpose of the M20 isn't just to build a Motorway between Cork & Limerick, thats a tangible bonus, If you build an M24 you will still need to upgrade the N20 between Mallow & Blarney to DC, still need to build a Cork NRR & still need to upgrade the N20 between Mallow & Croom to an acceptable level.

The N24 is a road connecting 2 small urban areas and has a handful of towns on its route, a Motorway is complete overkill unless these areas mushroom in size in the near future. You're idea is to build a national network to connect the cities but ignores practical realities, namely the road will have very low levels of traffic as it will run through and serve lightly populated areas, namely rural Limerick, Tipp & Waterford. Its a variation on the old irish theme, build it and they will come, in the case of the N24, no they won't, certainly not enough to justify building a 100km Motorway through the Munster countryside.

fricatus

Furet wrote: »

You seem to want parity of esteem for all the cities (such as when you place Waterford on a par with Limerick and Galway

Furet wrote: »

While Limerick and Galway are also very small in an EU context (as is Cork), they are considerably larger than Waterford. So they are not equal in size, they are not equal economically, they are not equal in importance, and they cannot be equal in terms of infrastructure. You are drawing false parallels, and you refuse to see that. And, with respect, it is childish foot stomping to wail about the unfairness of it all.

Furet wrote: »

That is the issue that you seem to struggle with Bards: Nomenclature Does Not Matter. Demographics do. You need to acknowledge that.

Furet, the issue that I have with all this is that there are practically no proper spatial population data readily available in this country. We have data on county and city populations, which are skewed by boundaries (the most extreme example being Limerick), but apart from that we only have the DEDs to go on.

I had long thought that Waterford was bigger than Galway for example, but current census data disproved that. I wondered where I had got this impression, and it turns out that until the '70s, it was, until the western city put on a growth spurt and Waterford went into relative decline.

Still though, there was too much of a disparity between the two cities' population when they, to me "felt" the same size, so I decided a couple of months ago to have an objective look at the available data. I drew a circle, of 25 km radius I believe, around the two cities, using a map of the DEDs, and aggregated the population figures from the DED populations in Census 2006.

It was painstaking work, but the results showed that the Galway area has a population of 139,000 and the Waterford area has a population of 128,000. I still haven't had time to do the same analysis on the Limerick area or the Cork area, but this will stand up to inspection and I'm happy to share the Excel files with you.

I'm sure you would agree that a 25 km radius is a fairer way of measuring the population of a small city and its immediate rural hinterland, than using boundaries based on rivers or outdated urban boundaries, subject as these are to local political wrangling (viz. Kilkenny/Waterford or Clare/Limerick).

On the basis that the populations of the Waterford and Galway areas differ by only around 8%, your assertions that Galway is "considerably larger than Waterford" and that the two "cannot be equal in terms of infrastructure" do not make sense when judged against the available data.

This is the sort of analysis we need to be doing when discussing the M24 or any other piece of national infrastructure.

Steviemak

invincibleirish wrote: »

The purpose of the M20 isn't just to build a Motorway between Cork & Limerick, thats a tangible bonus, If you build an M24 you will still need to upgrade the N20 between Mallow & Blarney to DC, still need to build a Cork NRR & still need to upgrade the N20 between Mallow & Croom to an acceptable level.

The N24 is a road connecting 2 small urban areas and has a handful of towns on its route, a Motorway is complete overkill unless these areas mushroom in size in the near future. You're idea is to build a national network to connect the cities but ignores practical realities, namely the road will have very low levels of traffic as it will run through and serve lightly populated areas, namely rural Limerick, Tipp & Waterford. Its a variation on the old irish theme, build it and they will come, in the case of the N24, no they won't, certainly not enough to justify building a 100km Motorway through the Munster countryside.

Thanks for the input as I said the M24 will not happen but I think this debate has served to highlight the lack of need for an M20. As you say a motorway between Cork and Limerick is complete over kill. It will have very low levels of traffic and run through low populated area of north cork and south Limerick. Therefore, an upgrade of the S2 is sufficient for the N20. You cannot justify building a 100km Motorway through the Munster countryside to link just Cork and Limerick.

The Cork NRR upgrade should go ahead regardless of the what road the Limerick traffic comes in on be it M8 or M20.

Don't forget my proposal of an M24 is aimed solely at reducing the amount of motorways and new roads built through Munster. The M24 would not serve South Tipp etc but join the 3 biggest populations in Munster. It would contain, Cork-Limerick, Cork-Waterford and Waterford-Limerick traffic. I believe making these places more attractive to Industry would help the country move any from the Dublin centric affects we are currently experiencing.

invincibleirish

Steviemak wrote: »

Thanks for the input as I said the M24 will not happen but I think this debate has served to highlight the lack of need for an M20. As you say a motorway between Cork and Limerick is complete over kill. It will have very low levels of traffic and run through low populated area of north cork and south Limerick. Therefore, an upgrade of the S2 is sufficient for the N20. You cannot justify building a 100km Motorway through the Munster countryside to link just Cork and Limerick.

Well i don't know if i can say the 2 M20 projects as planned are overkill certainly when compared to the entirety of the N24, the areas i highlighted - Mallow-Blarney & Mallow - Croom with bypasses of several towns on route do need to happen whether S2 or otherwise, as does the Cork NRR, packaging it all into 2 projects makes sense if you ask me, especially with the addition of the Adare BP. Otherwise If you are realiging the N20, bypassing Mallow, Charleville, Adare & Buttevant and realigning the N20 as an S2 i would guess the projected costs would be far more if built in a piecemeal manner?. Perhaps there is merit is keeping the N20 past Mallow as an S2 or a 2+2, plenty of time to still discuss it unless miracles happen with the countrys economy in the next few years.

Amtmann

Gruffalo wrote: »

Waterford is a city. When are people like you going to accept that city status is not dependent on population? You can take your book and chuck out the window because, despite what you think, your opinion does not have legal status in this country. Buy a statute book, much more useful.

Here is a city that would really irritate people like you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Davids

You are completely and totally missing the point. But as it doesn't seem kosher at present to pursue this (very relevant) aspect of the discussion, I'll not bother responding point by point to what is nothing but a weak strawman argument.

mysterious

invincibleirish wrote: »

The purpose of the M20 isn't just to build a Motorway between Cork & Limerick, thats a tangible bonus, If you build an M24 you will still need to upgrade the N20 between Mallow & Blarney to DC, still need to build a Cork NRR & still need to upgrade the N20 between Mallow & Croom to an acceptable level.
.

I would of opt for an M24 and join at Mitchellstown and then multplex of Cahir for Waterford. It would be far cheaper and more economical.

But as you said other schemes have been lumped into the M20 scheme. You forgot to mention the Adare bypass also. So I can say lets just proceed with the N20. The route plans are drawn up already.

I would of prefered a Cork - Limerick - Waterford motorway too. But this is not the case as it stands now.

mysterious

fricatus wrote: »

I had long thought that Waterford was bigger than Galway for example, but current census data disproved that.

We all knew that.:D

I drew a circle, of 25 km radius I believe, around the two cities, using a map of the DEDs, and aggregated the population figures from the DED populations in Census 2006.

Lets swallow up the entire SE, to make the city loooooook MAZZZIVE.:rolleyes:

It was painstaking work, but the results showed that the Galway area has a population of 139,000 and the Waterford area has a population of 128,000. I still haven't had time to do the same analysis on the Limerick area or the Cork area, but this will stand up to inspection and I'm happy to share the Excel files with you.

This I would be interested to see.

I'm sure you would agree that a 25 km radius is a fairer way of measuring the population of a small city and its immediate rural hinterland, than using boundaries based on rivers or outdated urban boundaries, subject as these are to local political wrangling (viz. Kilkenny/Waterford or Clare/Limerick).

No a city is defined where the urban area STOPS.

On the basis that the populations of the Waterford and Galway areas differ by only around 8%, your assertions that Galway is "considerably larger than Waterford" and that the two "cannot be equal in terms of infrastructure" do not make sense when judged against the available data.

Your point is? Since its off topic anyhow.

This is the sort of analysis we need to be doing when discussing the M24 or any other piece of national infrastructure.

Do the analysis then. But give facts.

Hogzy

Have to agree that the Cork City 'boundary' is a little out dated, im only familiar with the south side and as far as im aware it doesnt go passed the balinlough area. IMO Douglas, Rochestown, Bishopstown and all these suburbs should be within the city boundary and part of the City council and not the county council

fricatus

mysterious wrote: »

Lets swallow up the entire SE, to make the city loooooook MAZZZIVE.:rolleyes:

Roll your eyes all you want, mysterious. I've presented a factual argument and gone to some trouble to do so. If cheap digs and smilies are the best you can do, maybe you can take your arguments to the school playground where they belong.

mysterious wrote: »

This I would be interested to see.

No problem. I'll pm you the files when I have it done. Feel free to remind me.

mysterious wrote: »

Do the analysis then. But give facts.

You're right to call for facts of course, but when they don't suit your arguments, are you just going to dismiss them with sarcasm?

As things stand, I haven't completed the analysis I was working on (too busy), so I don't have the facts to hand. I promise you I'll post them here when I have them.

D.L.R.

Anyone got some AADT figures for the N20/N24? That might help inject some logic and reason into this...

spacetweek

D.L.R. wrote: »

Anyone got some AADT figures for the N20/N24? That might help inject some logic and reason into this...

Although this would normally be the case, in this case the existing roads are so poor that there is probably a lot of latent demand - people who would like to make the trip but who don't bother due to long journey times. These aren't reflected in N20/24 AADTs.

Just for the sake of it though.
N20: Levels are low, below 20,000 for the whole central section. There is currently slow traffic growth. For Croom, the AADT is 14221, and growth is 1-7% annually for 2007 & 2008, and 3-5% for 2001-2006.
At Rathduff, 2006-2009 figures also show <20k and growth at 5% long term average (based on earlier this decade).

Even assuming an average 5% growth per year, Croom won't even hit 20,000 (DC level) until 2015. Though like I said, the extent of latent demand is hard to figure.

I'm still in favour of the M20 though, due to the extremely poor condition of the existing road, and the strategic importance of the route.

For the N24, levels at Woodruff (incorrectly spelled here) are barely scraping the 10k mark with 4% long term average growth. That would reach 20k in 2027, which is probably when we'll see 2+2 along there anyway.

Amtmann

I think this should be locked for now. If people wish to have it re-opened then PM me and I'll think about it. But it just looks like an attempt at baiting tbh.

BluntGuy

You'd be far better off making a new thread, this one has become a disaster.