Dublin City car ban

Jip

One mans dirty dozen is another mans set of heroes. I see they're going to implement it in Augsut so by the time September comes around when traffic is dire because of it they can turn around and blame the kids being back to school.

paulm17781

kearnsr wrote: »

Disappointing in what sense?

Disappointing that it's not 24/7. The city would be much nicer (and busier) if it were more pedestrian friendly or less traffic filled.

godtabh

paulm17781 wrote: »

Disappointing that it's not 24/7. The city would be much nicer (and busier) if it were more pedestrian friendly or less traffic filled.

Having made a submission to DCC their plans weren’t thought out fully and as a result had many flaws. It should be 24/7 but more work needs to done on to suit the business it will affect

markpb

kearnsr wrote: »

Having made a submission to DCC their plans weren’t thought out fully and as a result had many flaws. It should be 24/7 but more work needs to done on to suit the business it will affect

You mentioned before that the new routes weren't sufficient to match the level of demand for car parks. I assume that's what was in your submission? What routes are they?

dowlingm

I'm interested in the study mentioned above, assuming it was done for the city council and not merely supplied to them by the retailers. I think there is an assumption by pro-transit / anti-discretional private car folks that retail spend is largely interchangeable between modes but that depends on what type of retail it is and how widely spaced the intended outlets to be visited are and so on.

It would be interesting to see a concept like home delivery operated on behalf of a group of stores attempted (outside of a shopping centre arrangement), so you would have your purchase boxed and picked up from multiple stores and delivered to your house together that night.

markpb

dowlingm wrote: »

I'm interested in the study mentioned above, assuming it was done for the city council and not merely supplied to them by the retailers.

If memory serves, the papers reported that the study was undertaken by the city centre traders. I can't see any way such a study could be reliable, has anyone every been asked how they got to the city centre when purchasing something

ODS

Looks as if residents in the area are going ape about this - Norris was just on the radio while the Mountjoy square society have been circulating this:


Mountjoy Square Society Urges Dublin City Councillors to Drop “Bus Gate” and Instead Connect Luas

11-05-2009

The Mountjoy Square Society strongly urges Dublin City Councillors to cancel the bus gate at tonight’s monthly meeting as we fear it will cause far more buses and coaches to be dumped in Mountjoy Square. This position was adopted unanimously by the society's members at its monthly meeting, held last night.

Despite Dublin Bus network reform announcements, first by the late Seamas Brennan, then by Cullen, and most recently by Noel Dempsey, no reform has occurred – with most buses following tramlines 70 years gone to a pillar also disappeared. It would be a rotten irony if more Dublin Buses blocking up College Green was to result in the Luas lines prevented from ever being connected. The Mountjoy Square Society urges connection of the Luas as a priority over facilitating an unreformed Dublin Bus.

The north inner city is abused by Dublin Bus; no service connects one end of Dorset Street to the other, no bus goes down Capel, North King, or Dominick Streets; instead Dublin Bus uses Mountjoy Square as a runway depot with many out-of-service buses parking up outside a crèche and childrens areas, blocking motorist’s sightlines and emitting cancerous fumes.

Dublin Bus refuses to provide passenger services after 6pm to Mountjoy Square, thus further stigmatizing business and residential interests. Despite the Mountjoy/ Summerhill depot due to be going, as scheduled in a 2001 council plan, even a reasonable suggestion by city officials urging a new ramp from the depot onto Summer hill – delivering speedier access onto O’Connell Street via Parnell Street – has been ignored.

Dublin Bus do NOT “serve the entire community”; they bully their way against the community and are a blight on the parts on the inner city they already dominate, such as Marlborough Street and Parnell Square. What hope for College Green if these custodians were to take primary charge – please see attached photograph of Broadstone Station in disgraceful condition.

Bus Gate is highly unlikely to deliver a better bus services in the absence of route reform; instead it facilitates worst practice. Little benefit is gained in the way of deterring private through traffic as O’Connell Street College - Green is already a large traffic cell area – since considered restrictions were introduced at Suffolk, South Great Georges, Pearse, North Frederick, Abbey, and Upper O’Connell Streets, as part of the Integrated Area Plan. The few cars currently using O’Connell Street – College Green already have to drive out of their way and are mostly not through traffic. Taxis and buses will simply make up for the private cars removed, not delivering for either cyclists or pedestrians.

Dublin Bus is part of the greater CIE created transport problem in the north inner city: in Mountjoy Square walls of coaches dangerously park up, yet many of these are on contract to CIE – who already have Broadstone, 90 acres at Connolly, etc. Beside Mountjoy Square is Croke Park, Europe’s 5th largest stadium, and sandwiched between two railway lines – yet CIE refuses to either install a station. This existing line would connect Connolly and Heuston Stations, and serve the communities in the North Circular Road, Phibsborough, Cabra, Russell Street, and Ballybough areas.

Facts provided by agencies have been few, yet Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) have stated at Metro North hearings, the time benefit to Dublin Bus journeys is only 1% if bus gate is inserted.

The Mountjoy Square Society notes and supports the Dublin City Business Association’s concerns; in the absence of leadership being given by central government prioritizing Luas lines being connected over bus gate, we call on Dublin City Council to give leadership in rejecting this scheme outright.

Issued on instructions by the members of the Mountjoy Square Society,

Ruadhán MacEoin

Chairman.

Heart

Dublin Bus refuses to provide passenger services after 6pm to Mountjoy Square, thus further stigmatizing business and residential interests.

Isn't this as a result of driver attacks? Where's the Mountjoy Sq. society press release about a safer Mountjoy Sq.?

Also, do they or don't they want the bus service?

What hope for College Green if these custodians were to take primary charge – please see attached photograph of Broadstone Station in disgraceful condition.

While I can't see a picture I'm presuming this is the Bus Eireann building in which Dublin Bus have no involvement with. Also, regarding the area outside Broadstone, the City Council have questions to answer about the state of the council controlled section.

ODS

Heart wrote: »

Isn't this as a result of driver attacks? Where's the Mountjoy Sq. society press release about a safer Mountjoy Sq.?

Also, do they or don't they want the bus service?

I understand there was one attack only, and that despite perception regarding security Mountjoy Sq. has actually the lowest level of burglary in the country.

Regarding whether they want a bus service, an irregular bus service that doesn't run after 6pm is worthless, and creates a very negative impression regarding their area. If Dublin Bus had any interest, I am sure they could have had an extra light or camera installed at the stop - funny though how DB are happy to use the square for their own operational requirements, yet won't provide a proper service. From what I'm hearing, there's about to be a massive row regarding all of this...

ODS

Heart wrote: »

While I can't see a picture I'm presuming this is the Bus Eireann building in which Dublin Bus have no involvement with. Also, regarding the area outside Broadstone, the City Council have questions to answer about the state of the council controlled section.

CIE owned property at Broadstone as illustrated in the third photograph in this post - http://www.archiseek.com/content/showpost.php?p=73702&postcount=10

Disgraceful stuff altogether!

bazzer

ODS wrote: »

The few cars currently using O’Connell Street – College Green already have to drive out of their way and are mostly not through traffic.

"... few cars ..." ??? BULL.

This is why it takes buses 20 minutes or more during peak times to travel down O'Connell Street.

And after eventually clearing O'Connell Bridge, traffic either must turn left onto Townsend Street or keep going around onto College Green. Most do the latter.

godtabh

markpb wrote: »

You mentioned before that the new routes weren't sufficient to match the level of demand for car parks. I assume that's what was in your submission? What routes are they?

I cant say on a public forum cause of work and stuff but if you look at the bus gate proposals its easy to see which ones would cause problems. One of the cities main car parks is in temple bar. Look at that for a start

lostexpectation

is the car business submission on line

antoinolachtnai

It is quite easy to slam down on people for being anti public transport here.

Many people are highly dependent on cars (both directly where they need the car themselves, and indirectly where they depend on their customers having cars).

The reality is that there are deep, fundamental problems with public transport in dublin and there is no sign of these problems being resolved any time soon.

Not much is being done to resolve this.

paulm17781

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It is quite easy to slam down on people for being anti public transport here.

Many people are highly dependent on cars (both directly where they need the car themselves, and indirectly where they depend on their customers having cars).

The reality is that there are deep, fundamental problems with public transport in dublin and there is no sign of these problems being resolved any time soon.

Not much is being done to resolve this.

Opposing every change to facilitate public transport doesn't help though.

bazzer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The reality is that there are deep, fundamental problems with public transport in dublin and there is no sign of these problems being resolved any time soon.

Not much is being done to resolve this.

On the flip side, although probably not deep and fundamental, I would say that this Bus Gate is one of the things being done to resolve it.

markpb

bazzer wrote: »

On the flip side, although probably not deep and fundamental, I would say that this Bus Gate is one of the things being done to resolve it.

The bus gate combined with new loading arrangements for bus stops in the city centre would have a huge impact on bus speeds across the city centre. There's no problem with lots of buses using the same streets, the problem starts when they all share bus stops. O'Connell St, Westmoreland St, D'Olier St and Grafton St are like DB turning a large gun on itself and shooting itself squarely in the foot.

If this is brought in, there's a huge scope for improvement but it has to be driven by someone who can force DB and DCC to make those changes. I don't think any person exists.

antoinolachtnai

Be fair. They aren't opposing all changes to public transport. They are just opposing this one.

If they thought they were going to get a great public transport system as a result, their attitude might be different. But they have no reason to believe they will. This change is not being made as part of an overall plan.

Jip

bazzer wrote: »

"... few cars ..." ??? BULL.

This is why it takes buses 20 minutes or more during peak times to travel down O'Connell Street.

Alot of that congestion is due to taxis doubling up on the rank paritially blocking one lane either side plus the sheer amount of buses, private and public. Very few private cars in comparison to buses and taxis uses O'Connell Street at evening peak times, a little more in the mornings.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Be fair. They aren't opposing all changes to public transport. They are just opposing this one.

If they thought they were going to get a great public transport system as a result, their attitude might be different. But they have no reason to believe they will. This change is not being made as part of an overall plan.

Completely agree. At the moment for a huge amount of people travelling from the north west of the city to the south side of the city there are no better options than by car. In my case a car will get me from my house, through the city centre and onto the southside alot quicker than public transport. If I was to get a bus I would have to get off at Parnell Square and either get another bus or walk, I always walk, to the office from there but either way it's alot slower. Where's the benefit of the bus gate to me or several thousand other people living out my direction ?

If there was a route that was direct and fast that went from one side of the city to the other I would contemplate it. Until then I'm not giving up my car.

paulm17781

Jip wrote: »

Completely agree. At the moment for a huge amount of people travelling from the north west of the city to the south side of the city there are no better options than by car. In my case a car will get me from my house, through the city centre and onto the southside alot quicker than public transport. If I was to get a bus I would have to get off at Parnell Square and either get another bus or walk, I always walk, to the office from there but either way it's alot slower. Where's the benefit of the bus gate to me or several thousand other people living out my direction ?

You're implying it's bad because it doesn't suit you. If they want to make a bus gate that suits you should I be against it as it does nothing for me?

Dublin is a badly laid out city with far too much traffic in it. Less traffic would make it far more pleasant and more efficient public transport would also aid this.

dereko1969

Jip wrote: »

Alot of that congestion is due to taxis doubling up on the rank paritially blocking one lane either side plus the sheer amount of buses, private and public. Very few private cars in comparison to buses and taxis uses O'Connell Street at evening peak times, a little more in the mornings. - but then why are the city centre traders opposed to it? the doubling up on the rank is an enforcement issue for the Garda and i've often seen them moving taxis on




Completely agree. At the moment for a huge amount of people travelling from the north west of the city to the south side of the city there are no better options than by car. In my case a car will get me from my house, through the city centre and onto the southside alot quicker than public transport. If I was to get a bus I would have to get off at Parnell Square and either get another bus or walk, I always walk, to the office from there but either way it's alot slower. Where's the benefit of the bus gate to me or several thousand other people living out my direction ? - your bus will travel a lot quicker down o'connell street because there will be fewer cars blocking it's journey, you may have to get off one bus and onto another but that's normal commuting worldwide, public transport will never be able to bring everyone directly from their door to their place of work
If there was a route that was direct and fast that went from one side of the city to the other I would contemplate it. Until then I'm not giving up my car.

what about when the office car parking levy comes in? what about when congestion charging comes in?

Jip

What if the world ends tomorrow ?

We're talking about facts here not what ifs and whens. The same point will apply if either of your what ifs come to being, there needs to be viable atlernative for thousands of commuters before any of these things come to be.

Paulm, I'm implying that it does not suit practically half the city.

paulm17781

Jip wrote: »

Paulm, I'm implying that it does not suit practically half the city.

But it would suit me. If they put one in that suits you, it probably won't affect half half the city either. It doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Anything that will help public transport or pedestrians in DCC should be implemented. I'm not too bothered about the bus gate, it's the reduction in cars that would make a big difference.

dereko1969

Jip wrote: »

We're talking about facts here not what ifs and whens. The same point will apply if either of your what ifs come to being, there needs to be viable atlernative for thousands of commuters before any of these things come to be.

Paulm, I'm implying that it does not suit practically half the city.

okay went off on one a little there but....would you take 2 buses to work if you could get to work quicker or at the same time as you currently drive?

what bus service could you get and why don't you currently take it?

from your original post it seemed it was because the traffic from parnell square to your place of work is so slow that you'd rather walk it, so surely this proposal that would make that part of your journey quicker is to be welcomed? or am i missing something. would you only take the bus if it went directly from your gaff to your workplace? as i said above that kind of journey is not going to generally be feasible so demand management measures such as congestion charging/parking levies may have to be brought in.

DES440

just another typically Irish case of putting the cart before the horse.never mind that lots of people have no choice but to take their cars into work, never mind that there is no interconnected public transport system, never mind that the buses pass by people at stops because they're already full, never mind that Dublin bus is cutting its fleet substantially.

Lets just ban cars from the heart of Dublin City, push them all on to the already over congested north quays, and ignore the fact that when the colosal waste of money that is metro north is constructed O'Connell. bridge is to be closed, thereby causing meltdown on the quays.

Has anyone ever seen much in the way of traffic jams in College Green?I think not.I drive through it twice a day at peak times, and the only delay is in the evening coming by Trinity College because of all the buses blocking lanes.

Lets just go hug some trees and feel really good about ourselves because we've done something against people who drive.And lets vilify anyone who suggests this car ban (cos thats what it is), is ill thought out, since there are no reasonable alternative routes with sufficient capacity.Lets also ignore the fact that this will in essence push people to go increasingly to suburban shopping centres rather than the city centre to shop.

None of that matters.All that matters is people who drive are worse than Nazis and must be punished....apparently

markpb

DES440 wrote: »

just another typically Irish case of putting the cart before the horse.y

Would I be right in summarising your post as:

1. People have to drive because public transport is poor

2. Installing the bus gate which could improve public transport is a bad idea

3. Building Metro North which could improve public transport is a bad idea

Are there any other public transport projects you'd like to complain about? KRP, the Luas, QBCs? I get the impression you'd like to go to sleep some night and wake up to find the city covered in tram and train lines, installed without getting in your way. That's hardly realistic is it - if public transport is going to improve, some people will be inconvenienced during it's construction.

FWIW I agree with you about Grafton St, cars are not a problem there. College Street can be quite heavily trafficed which does cause delays to buses. I see this evening morning when I cycle past. All the bus stops in the city centre badly need to be re-thought out.

DES440

MarkPB,

Thanks for presuming to know my views on things and attempting to explain the reasoning behind my views, but since you don't know me please refrain from doing so.

1. People have to drive because public transport is poor
Partly true, but it may shock you to learn people prefer to drive.Its why they have cars

2. Installing the bus gate which could improve public transport is a bad idea
There is no eveidence to suggest it will improve public transport.There is no congestion problem at College Green.I use it twice daily.Bus timing down O'Connell street is largely due to traffic lights / crossings / junctions (O'Connell Bridge)
It is a bad idea as there are no alternative routes with sufficient capacity.The North Quays are the only viable alternatiove for cars and they are already crammed in the mornings.They will get worse under this scam, causing tail backs to spill north and south.Please suggest how someone coming fromWest Dublin can get to the IFSC under this folly

3. Building Metro North which could improve public transport is a bad idea
The areas served could be served just as well and at a fraction of the price by building 2 spurs, 1 from Swords to the Dart line, and 1 from the airport to the Castleknock line.Essentially it is a vanity project rubber stamped by a Taoiseach from the constituency through which it runs.In the current climate it is a porrly thought out waste of money.No more no less.Of course it will have great public transport benefits, but it is not the most economical way of achieving them, thats all

Rics

In a way it would be nice to have areas of the city centre vehicle free but at the moment, it just doesn't seem practical.

DES440

Rics wrote: »

In a way it would be nice to have areas of the city centre vehicle free but at the moment, it just doesn't seem practical.

Agree 100%

paulm17781

DES440 wrote: »

Partly true, but it may shock you to learn people prefer to drive.Its why they have cars

No one is questioning that. It may however shock you to learn that other people don't want to drive or don't like the fact the city is full of traffic.

DES440 wrote: »

There is no eveidence to suggest it will improve public transport.There is no congestion problem at College Green.I use it twice daily.Bus timing down O'Connell street is largely due to traffic lights / crossings / junctions (O'Connell Bridge)
It is a bad idea as there are no alternative routes with sufficient capacity.The North Quays are the only viable alternatiove for cars and they are already crammed in the mornings.They will get worse under this scam, causing tail backs to spill north and south.Please suggest how someone coming fromWest Dublin can get to the IFSC under this folly

Removing traffic from a pinch point will make buses run better. Someone from West Dublin can drive to any station on the Maynooth line and get the train to Connolly / IFSC or Kildare line, train to Heuston, Luas to Connolly (soon IFSC). Are you going to complain about these too?

There are undoubtedly other routes too.

DES440 wrote: »

3. Building Metro North which could improve public transport is a bad idea
The areas served could be served just as well and at a fraction of the price by building 2 spurs, 1 from Swords to the Dart line, and 1 from the airport to the Castleknock line.Essentially it is a vanity project rubber stamped by a Taoiseach from the constituency through which it runs.In the current climate it is a porrly thought out waste of money.No more no less.Of course it will have great public transport benefits, but it is not the most economical way of achieving them, thats all

This shows how little you actually understand about transport in the city. It is not an airport metro, I wish people would stop calling it that. It is a high capacity high frequency line linking Swords (a very large area) to the city, it is far from a vanity project.

Now, your posts are coming across as very aggressive, you imply those of us who like public transport are just tree huggers, no need for that, it weakens your argument. I live in Dublin city centre, I have done for 6 years. Removing cars from the city will make it nicer, it will probably do the traders a lot of good too (pedestrianisation of Grafton st.).