Official Lions squad announcement and discussion thread

premierstone

Webbs wrote: »

While his ability on the lineout is undoubted they wont be weakened hugely by the other options.

However, the scrum isnt all about being pushed off the ball, what you dont want is your front row on defensive scrums to be struggling so that all your backrow has to push and the opposition be able to wheel the scrum to allow space and numbers for moves off the base.
With Hayes that is what you would likely get, while it may not appear that the scrum is going backwards etc, it means that you have tied in the back row which would be fatal.

Oh i agree 100% and as a Munster and Ireland fan im actually quite relieved that Bull will not be travelling ( from a professional view obv.) as i feel it will allow him to get at least another season as the top number 3 in Irish Rugby. I was just irked at the suggestion that Bull is constantly been praised for mediocrity which is a little wide of the mark to say the least.

anonymous_joe

premierstone wrote: »

Oh i agree 100% and as a Munster and Ireland fan im actually quite relieved that Bull will not be travelling ( from a professional view obv.) as i feel it will allow him to get at least another season as the top number 3 in Irish Rugby. I was just irked at the suggestion that Bull is constantly been praised for mediocrity which is a little wide of the mark to say the least.

Hayes has been a great servant to Irish rugby, and he's lifted at a world class level, but he's also scrummaged at a schoolboy level at times.

It's been said before - Ireland's Grand Slam winning prop was put under massive pressure by a 21 year old in the past few weeks.

Good and all as Hayes is, he's never going to be a great prop, and I say this as someone who has a lot of respect for what he's achieved.

Stealdo

Rather than work my way through other individual threads I'm gonne use this one to issue the following statements...

To Keith Earls and all the posters who suggested you I apologise for laughing at the possibility of you making the tour and the stupidity of anyone who thought it might actually happen, I clearly know nothing.

To Alan Quinlan and all the posters who suggested you I apologise for laughing at the possibility of you making the tour and the stupidity of anyone who thought it might actually happen, I clearly know nothing.

To Tomas O'Leary and all the posters who suggested you I apologise for laughing at the possibility of you making the tour and the stupidity of anyone who thought it might actually happen, I clearly know nothing.

I will not apologise to anyone who thinks Andy Powell should be on the tour though, that's the one selection I can't get my head around. Nick Easter and Ryan Jones were far better options in my mind.

You can make great cases for Quinlan, TOL and Earls each with their own reasoning I just didn't think they'd be picked, but I just don't see any case at all for Powell. He's been proven to not be up to it to the point of not even starting for Cardiff these days. It was the biggest shock of the day for me by far.

All in all I reckon this is a pretty good selection. I'm actually pleased that he only picked two 10's. Not because I don't think you need 3, but because there is no other 10 in Britain and Ireland who has done anything to deserve to go. Lions shirts should not just be handed out willy nilly. It says something about McGeechan's attitude towards the whole thing.

twinytwo

some are saying that there will be no spark from the backs and that the tour will be forwards orientated... i dont see where they are getting this from as i doubt the choice of backs could have been better

anonymous_joe

twinytwo wrote: »

some are saying that there will be no spark from the backs and that the tour will be forwards orientated... i dont see where they are getting this from as i doubt the choice of backs could have been better

The Northern Hemisphere's slowest scrum halves is a clue.

If you want to attack you put Stringer or someone at 9, Hook /Cipriani/equivalent running 10 at 10 and then you put those backs out.

Already this team's set up to kick.

Podge_irl

twinytwo wrote: »

some are saying that there will be no spark from the backs and that the tour will be forwards orientated... i dont see where they are getting this from as i doubt the choice of backs could have been better

I think they're getting it more from the choice of forwards. They haven't exactly been picked to play a high tempo game - especially the backrow. That's why you have the likes of Quinlan, Worsely, Shaw etc. there

jop

[Jackass] wrote: »

In fairness, all provincial "stuff" aside, most recent memory of Hayes in trouble at scrum time was against rookie prop Cian Healy. Last season LeRoux had him for breakfast. When Leinster play Munster, it's probably the only time I pay great attention to every aspect of the Munster game (as you tend to do when watching your team play any opposition), but it's been a while since I've seen a Munster scrum get the better of a Leinster one and Leinster have been chopping and changing and are hardly world renowned scrumagers - like the saffies - Hayes and Horan are always just about holding up the scrum - they get plaudits and man of the match awards for gaining parity or slight advantage at scrum time.

Hayes is a work horse and a great servant to Irish rugby, but up to the calibar of a Lions tour to SA he aint. He's a poor scrumager and would be destroyed.

Yeah was really shocked that cian wasnt picked for the tour , shocking selection

twinytwo

anonymous_joe wrote: »

The Northern Hemisphere's slowest scrum halves is a clue.

If you want to attack you put Stringer or someone at 9, Hook /Cipriani/equivalent running 10 at 10 and then you put those backs out.

Already this team's set up to kick.

While the fly half area is a bit iffy
take a look at it by position

FB - both Byrne and Kearney are solid FB who have abiltiy to run/kick their way out of trouble
Wing- the speed and jink of Williams and Halfpenny with the power of Bowe and Monye
Centre - Given half a chance Drico,Flutey,Shanklin will be a constant thorn in the side of the boks
10- O'Gara's tatical kicking and Jones'all round game while i think only having 2 10's may be the down fall of this tour

it isnt as clean cut as some would like to think....

twinytwo

[Jackass] wrote: »

In fairness, all provincial "stuff" aside, most recent memory of Hayes in trouble at scrum time was against rookie prop Cian Healy. Last season LeRoux had him for breakfast. When Leinster play Munster, it's probably the only time I pay great attention to every aspect of the Munster game (as you tend to do when watching your team play any opposition), but it's been a while since I've seen a Munster scrum get the better of a Leinster one and Leinster have been chopping and changing and are hardly world renowned scrumagers - like the saffies - Hayes and Horan are always just about holding up the scrum - they get plaudits and man of the match awards for gaining parity or slight advantage at scrum time.

Hayes is a work horse and a great servant to Irish rugby, but up to the calibar of a Lions tour to SA he aint. He's a poor scrumager and would be destroyed.

You mean just like leinster come the semi final?

Podge_irl

twinytwo wrote: »

You mean just like leinster come the semi final?

The relevance of that being? Recent form would suggest that the Leinster scrum will come out on top btw which is the more relevant factor when discussing tighthead props.

anonymous_joe

twinytwo wrote: »

While the fly half area is a bit iffy
take a look at it by position

FB - both Byrne and Kearney are solid FB who have abiltiy to run/kick their way out of trouble
Wing- the speed and jink of Williams and Halfpenny with the power of Bowe and Monye
Centre - Given half a chance Drico,Flutey,Shanklin will be a constant thorn in the side of the boks
10- O'Gara's tatical kicking and Jones'all round game while i think only having 2 10's may be the down fall of this tour

it isnt as clean cut as some would like to think....

Thing is, half backs are (especially with the ELVs) the most influential players on the pitch. Ours are geared for a kicking game.

And for the record, given how badly the Munster scrum was effected by Leinster lately, it's no surprise Horan and Hayes were left behind. We all know Van Der Linde's the most talented prop in Ireland, and that's the standard over there.

Given how there's usually a defensive line of 13 in normal play, good scrum ball gives one of, if not the best attacking platform. Scrums could be absolutely crucial.

louthandproud

Podge_irl wrote: »

The relevance of that being? Recent form would suggest that the Leinster scrum will come out on top btw which is the more relevant factor when discussing tighthead props.

How many of Munsters scrums did they actually win that day? Zero I think, what was the effect on the result? None I think.

My point is, that the importance of the scrum just isn't what it was, talking about Hayes in terms of scrummaging only is sort of missing the point, I don't think even the most red tainted glasses wearing Munster supporter would argue in favor or Hayes based on scrummaging.

7mountpleasant

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Thing is, half backs are (especially with the ELVs) the most influential players on the pitch. Ours are geared for a kicking game.

l.

The O'gara is just a kicking outhalf line is being trotted out a lot these days and I would have accepted it two years ago as anyone who has watched munster in the last 2 years will testify to he has expanded his game a great deal since then.

Amabokke

twinytwo wrote: »

FB - both Byrne and Kearney are solid FB who have abiltiy to run/kick their way out of trouble
Wing- the speed and jink of Williams and Halfpenny with the power of Bowe and Monye
Centre - Given half a chance Drico,Flutey,Shanklin will be a constant thorn in the side of the boks
10- O'Gara's tatical kicking and Jones'all round game while i think only having 2 10's may be the down fall of this tour

As said before the boks play a very defensive game and only conceded 1 try during the Nov internations so running themselves out of trouble will be difficult especially since the boks are good and quick from broken play / loose ball.
Your centres might be good but they will definitely not be given the chance to be a thorn against De Villiers/Jacobs/Steyn/Fourie who are defensively all very good.

I agree with your on the flyhalfs. Last time Ireland played in SA ROG really struggled.

anonymous_joe

7mountpleasant wrote: »

The O'gara is just a kicking outhalf line is being trotted out a lot these days and I would have accepted it two years ago as anyone who has watched munster in the last 2 years will testify to he has expanded his game a great deal since then.

This isn't Ireland we're talking about.

And how many times did O'Gara run with the ball this 6 Nations? He's been very kicky for Ireland lately.

Anyway, if the Lions wanted to run with the ball, would they pick O'Gara? He's one of the world's best tactical kickers, I think we all know what he's there for, especially with those scrum-halves.

Podge_irl

louthandproud wrote: »

How many of Munsters scrums did they actually win that day? Zero I think, what was the effect on the result? None I think.

My point is, that the importance of the scrum just isn't what it was, talking about Hayes in terms of scrummaging only is sort of missing the point, I don't think even the most red tainted glasses wearing Munster supporter would argue in favor or Hayes based on scrummaging.

There is more to a good scrum then simply getting the ball back. A scrum under pressure completely negates it as an attacking weapon as the backrow get tied in or turned. And no, its not as important as it once was but you still don't want a scrum under a lot of pressure.

louthandproud

Podge_irl wrote: »

There is more to a good scrum then simply getting the ball back. A scrum under pressure completely negates it as an attacking weapon as the backrow get tied in or turned. And no, its not as important as it once was but you still don't want a scrum under a lot of pressure.

True, I was just making the point that scrummaging isn't the most important aspect of Hayes's game, especially in the modern game where the importance of a going forward scrum has been diminished, if it were he wouldn't have gotten 90 odd caps. He should be evaluated on all he contributes, which is a lot.

In saying that though, I wouldn't have selected him myself for SA.

anonymous_joe

louthandproud wrote: »

True, I was just making the point that scrummaging isn't the most important aspect of Hayes's game, especially in the modern game where the importance of a going forward scrum has been diminished, if it were he wouldn't have gotten 90 odd caps. He should be evaluated on all he contributes, which is a lot.

In saying that though, I wouldn't have selected him myself for SA.

He's got 90 caps because he has no competition, same as O'Driscoll, O'Gara and a few others.

He's been magnificent for Ireland and Munster over the years, an absolute hero of a guy, but he's 35 or so, and in fairness it's slowly but surely starting to take its toll, he still has a lot to offer, but a small but growing number are beginning to overpower him. Not many props can compare to Hayes, but more are becoming apparent.

I'd hope for Munster's sake, and Ireland's too, that someone like Buckley can contribute half as much as Hayes did.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

This isn't Ireland we're talking about.

And how many times did O'Gara run with the ball this 6 Nations? He's been very kicky for Ireland lately.

Might have more to do with the Ireland gameplan, no? Not half the amount of aimless kicking goes on when he plays for Munster - but I suppose the Munster kiwis have much better handling skills than the Irish backs and it would be very rare for Ian Dowling to cough up turnover ball.

Anyway, if the Lions wanted to run with the ball, would they pick O'Gara? He's one of the world's best tactical kickers, I think we all know what he's there for, especially with those scrum-halves.

O'Gara: http://www.scrum.com/ireland/rugby/player/13312.html

A couple of extracts:

O'Gara's willingness to play open, expansive rugby allowed him to engage and unleash the talented Irish backline. His high risk style of play has matured over the years, and a finer exponent of controlled kicking in challenging conditions is hard to find.

Exuding confidence, O'Gara became arguably the finest fly half in the northern hemisphere, with a deadly attacking arsenal and a new found belief in his ability to challenge even the stoutest defences.

Stephen Jones: http://www.scrum.com/wales/rugby/player/12924.html

You might like to read what they say about Felipe

Felipe Contepomi: http://www.scrum.com/argentina/rugby/player/13010.html

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

Might have more to do with the Ireland gameplan, no? Not half the amount of aimless kicking goes on when he plays for Munster - but I suppose the Munster kiwis have much better handling skills than the Irish backs and it would be very rare for Ian Dowling to cough up turnover ball.



O'Gara: http://www.scrum.com/ireland/rugby/player/13312.html

A couple of extracts:





Stephen Jones: http://www.scrum.com/wales/rugby/player/12924.html

You might like to read what they say about Felipe

Felipe Contepomi: http://www.scrum.com/argentina/rugby/player/13010.html

IT says Contepomi's one of the stars of world rugby...

Look, O'Gara can get a backline moving, we all know that, but it's certainly not been done at international level anytime lately.

Not sure if that's him or coaching, but we'll have to wait and see. As I've said before, I expect things to be kicky. :P

toomevara

Butch James out of the reckoning for the Bokke. Cruciate ligament. Pity. Would have been a great asset to the Saffies.

toomevara

toomevara wrote: »

Butch James out of the reckoning for the Bokke. Cruciate ligament. Pity. Would have been a great asset to the Saffies.

Probably a blessing for them. He's more flaky than freddy michalak

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

IT says Contepomi's one of the stars of world rugby...

Look, O'Gara can get a backline moving, we all know that, but it's certainly not been done at international level anytime lately.

Not sure if that's him or coaching, but we'll have to wait and see. As I've said before, I expect things to be kicky. :P

Are you sure? I was beginning to think O'Gara is responsible for BOD having to get out of bed and practice his rugby most days of the week. I'm sure O'Gara is also responsible for world hunger :rolleyes:

toomevara

Deleted User wrote: »

Probably a blessing for them. He's more flaky than freddy michalak

For me,easily the best 10 in the GP this season. had he brought his current form to the Lions tour he'd have been a brilliant asset.

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

Are you sure? I was beginning to think O'Gara is responsible for BOD having to get out of bed and practice his rugby most days of the week. I'm sure O'Gara is also responsible for world hunger :rolleyes:

What the hell do you want me to say?

It's not like O'Gara's a bad out-half, but his strength has always been his tactical kicking, and good goal-kicking under pressure.

He can be very good at running a backline, but he always seems to me when watching to prefer to trust in his own kicking. That's not a criticism, that's what I perceive his style of play to be.

I'm hardly demanding he turn into Carlos Spencer. :P

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

What the hell do you want me to say?

It's not like O'Gara's a bad out-half, but his strength has always been his tactical kicking, and good goal-kicking under pressure.

He can be very good at running a backline, but he always seems to me when watching to prefer to trust in his own kicking. That's not a criticism, that's what I perceive his style of play to be.

I'm hardly demanding he turn into Carlos Spencer. :P

You might wonder about the reason why O'Gara as you say 'prefers to trust his own kicking', when with Ireland and doesn't seem to rely so much on it in Munster.

Ever cross your mind as to why Leinster's scrum is better than Munster's scrum? Ever think it might be that Leinster gets to practice their scrum at game time a lot more?

To be blunt - too many handling errors committed by the backs maybe the reason why O'Gara (& Kearney at FB) kick the ball when playing with Ireland. The Munster backs have much better handling skills.

O'Gara isn't Carlos Spencer. BOD isn't GOD all the time!

stephen_n

anonymous_joe wrote: »

He's got 90 caps because he has no competition, same as O'Driscoll, O'Gara and a few others.

He's been magnificent for Ireland and Munster over the years, an absolute hero of a guy, but he's 35 or so, and in fairness it's slowly but surely starting to take its toll, he still has a lot to offer, but a small but growing number are beginning to overpower him. Not many props can compare to Hayes, but more are becoming apparent.

I'd hope for Munster's sake, and Ireland's too, that someone like Buckley can contribute half as much as Hayes did.

Just to clarify, you are stating there that the only reason BOD is in the Irish side is because there is no one better to replace him? As in he is not good enough but is the best we have?

premierstone

stephen_n wrote: »

Just to clarify, you are stating there that the only reason BOD is in the Irish side is because there is no one better to replace him? As in he is not good enough but is the best we have?

Off ur high horse there Stephen , jaysus u must be wrecked from constantly running around saving the honour of the chosen one :rolleyes:, what he is saying is he has amassed that number of caps - as has O'Gara and Hayes - because we never have an oppurtunity to rest him because our caover/strenght in depth just isnt there

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

You might wonder about the reason why O'Gara as you say 'prefers to trust his own kicking', when with Ireland and doesn't seem to rely so much on it in Munster.

Ever cross your mind as to why Leinster's scrum is better than Munster's scrum? Ever think it might be that Leinster gets to practice their scrum at game time a lot more?

To be blunt - too many handling errors committed by the backs maybe the reason why O'Gara (& Kearney at FB) kick the ball when playing with Ireland. The Munster backs have much better handling skills.

O'Gara isn't Carlos Spencer. BOD isn't GOD all the time!

Well I'd have said Leinster having better props when it comes to scrummaging. :pac:

I've watched a lot of Leinster this season and handling and ball skills in general have been appalling. I don't think the Munster players have better handling skills per sé, but something is seriously wrong with Leinster's backs. Not sure many fans pay as much attention to Leinster as Munster, but right now both sides have very good packs, but Leinster's backs are looking very off form. It's no surprise that their backs coach is also the Ireland one. Really disappointed in Gaffney's contribution this season tbh.

And tbh, I don't think O'Gara uses his handling more because Munster are somehow innately superior, I think it's because McGahan's got a different game plan than Kidney, and uses his players better. I prefer McGahan's Munster to Kidney's for the record. And no Gaffney involved either...

stephen_n wrote: »

Just to clarify, you are stating there that the only reason BOD is in the Irish side is because there is no one better to replace him? As in he is not good enough but is the best we have?

Oh of course, O'Driscoll, awful player. :pac:

Nah, seriously, O'Driscoll is our best player of the pro era, and I reckon ever. However, he's played plenty of games when he's been carrying knocks, etc. If we'd had someone really good who could offer an (obviously inferior) alternative that didn't drastically weaken the team, then I think his injury problems would have been reduced. O'Driscoll throws himself into the game with more passion than almost anyone, and has the scars and injuries to prove it. As I said, an alternative would have offered him more of a chance to recuperate.

O'Driscoll earned all his caps by being one of if not the best outside centre in the world, but there've been some games we probably could have let him take off.

anonymous_joe

premierstone wrote: »

Off ur high horse there Stephen , jaysus u must be wrecked from constantly running around saving the honour of the chosen one :rolleyes:, what he is saying is he has amassed that number of caps - as has O'Gara and Hayes - because we never have an oppurtunity to rest him because our caover/strenght in depth just isnt there

Indeed. O'Gara and O'Driscoll are both absolutely fantastic but have had no rivals at all for their positions in years.

Again, with Hayes, he's a much better player now than he was a few years ago, and he's really given Ireland a hell of a lot, but if there'd been a more natural player in his position he'd probably never have gotten a chance to make the contribution he did. Thankfully he had the determination to do so.

stephen_n

premierstone wrote: »

Off ur high horse there Stephen , jaysus u must be wrecked from constantly running around saving the honour of the chosen one :rolleyes:, what he is saying is he has amassed that number of caps - as has O'Gara and Hayes - because we never have an oppurtunity to rest him because our caover/strenght in depth just isnt there

Firstly I think this is the first and only time I have as you put it tried to save BOD's honour, which actually wasn't the purpose of my question. I believe we have had cover for centre in the last few years maybe not up to BOD's standards but then again it's unlikely that we will see another player of his ability for a while but none the less players who could and would have made it into the team was in not for BOD being there. But in saying that Hayes was only there because there was no one else to challenge him and then linking BOD and ROG into the same statement it would indicate that the other two players were there for the same reason. I could just as easily point out that Hayes scrummaging is noteably weak but it would take some player to contribute what he does in defence and in the lineout so it isn't a case of no props there who could do better in the tight cause there have been a few but no one who could contribute more as a player!

You don't get 90 caps for your country in what has been the most successful team in Irish history just because there is no one better around otherwise this team would not have been successful!

anonymous_joe

stephen_n wrote: »

Firstly I think this is the first and only time I have as you put it tried to save BOD's honour, which actually wasn't the purpose of my question. I believe we have had cover for centre in the last few years maybe not up to BOD's standards but then again it's unlikely that we will see another player of his ability for a while but none the less players who could and would have made it into the team was in not for BOD being there. But in saying that Hayes was only there because there was no one else to challenge him and then linking BOD and ROG into the same statement it would indicate that the other two players were there for the same reason. I could just as easily point out that Hayes scrummaging is noteably weak but it would take some player to contribute what he does in defence and in the lineout so it isn't a case of no props there who could do better in the tight cause there have been a few but no one who could contribute more as a player!

You don't get 90 caps for your country in what has been the most successful team in Irish history just because there is no one better around otherwise this team would not have been successful!

You wouldn't get 90 caps unless there weren't any other options.

O'Driscoll's always deserved his place, but if you've got Ireland playing teams that are significantly weaker, does he have to play in all of them?

Many other teams if they'd been playing a Namibia or Georgia in the World Cup would have put an O'Driscoll on the bench or benched him early to spare him for more important games. (Pretend we'd been a well organised team whose gameplan hadn't unravelled totally.)

Those sort of decisions would reduce the number of caps he has - not by much, but by a little.

premierstone

Apologies if I was a bit OTT on the BOD thing but i think you are missing the point that Joe was making I dont think for a minute he is questioning the merits of Hayes (or ROG or BOD) but is just highlighting the fact that their number of caps would have been less if a) we had more strenght in depth to rotate against perceived weaker opposition and b) if EOS wasnt so hell bent on playing he;s first 15 in every game he managed us in - he's perogative i know!

sock puppet

premierstone wrote: »

Apologies if I was a bit OTT on the BOD thing but i think you are missing the point that Joe was making I dont think for a minute he is questioning the merits of Hayes (or ROG or BOD) but is just highlighting the fact that their number of caps would have been less if a) we had more strenght in depth to rotate against perceived weaker opposition and b) if EOS wasnt so hell bent on playing he;s first 15 in every game he managed us in - he's perogative i know!

True. Hayes has started every six nations games for years hasn't he? Like the past 7 or 8? An impressive record no doubt, but has any other country had to/wanted to play the same player for 40+ championship games straight?

stephen_n

anonymous_joe wrote: »

You wouldn't get 90 caps unless there weren't any other options.

O'Driscoll's always deserved his place, but if you've got Ireland playing teams that are significantly weaker, does he have to play in all of them?

Many other teams if they'd been playing a Namibia or Georgia in the World Cup would have put an O'Driscoll on the bench or benched him early to spare him for more important games. (Pretend we'd been a well organised team whose gameplan hadn't unravelled totally.)

Those sort of decisions would reduce the number of caps he has - not by much, but by a little.

Think in fairness though thats more a reflection of EOS than lack of replacements for BOD in those sort of matches?

Teg Veece

Hi, I'm looking for the thread that discusses the Lions squad and tour. Has anyone seen it?

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I've watched a lot of Leinster this season and handling and ball skills in general have been appalling. I don't think the Munster players have better handling skills per sé, but something is seriously wrong with Leinster's backs.

Sorry to be the one to break it to you joe, but the Munster backs's handling skills are on a different planet to the Leinster's back at the moment. Way, way better. Do you watch Munster at all?

Nah, seriously, O'Driscoll is our best player of the pro era, and I reckon ever. However, he's played plenty of games when he's been carrying knocks, etc. If we'd had someone really good who could offer an (obviously inferior) alternative that didn't drastically weaken the team, then I think his injury problems would have been reduced. O'Driscoll throws himself into the game with more passion than almost anyone, and has the scars and injuries to prove it. As I said, an alternative would have offered him more of a chance to recuperate.

O'Driscoll earned all his caps by being one of if not the best outside centre in the world, but there've been some games we probably could have let him take off.

BOD got capped at a very young age and then the captaincy, so its a bit more difficult to rest him as well from that pov. I personally think he got the captaincy far too young and a dependency on him was created. Any aspiring centre would have realised that they were never going to get anywhere with him in front and had to focus on other positions. Didn't Shane Horgan start as a centre, Andrew Trimble - only got game time on the wing. Only now, as he nears the end of his career are lads (Fitzgerald, Earls) putting their hand up for centre position (BTW, this is not BOD's fault).

As regards the number of caps Hayes & O'Gara have - if they had anything like decent competition it would have been more like a Fla v Best situation - both capped around the same time both have about 30 caps at this stage. (Fla had Woody, Shane Byrne & Frankie him at some stage), whereas Best has really only had Fla.

RuggieBear

lions tour?

back on topic please

Onearmedbandit

Teg Veece wrote: »

Hi, I'm looking for the thread that discusses the Lions squad and tour. Has anyone seen it?

Threads like these always resort to Leinster V Munster shouting matches

manster

Crap just heard that Tomas O'Leary is a doubt for the Lions tour with a serious ankle injury

turtleshead

manster wrote: »

Crap just heard that Tomas O'Leary is a doubt for the Lions tour with a serious ankle injury

I really feel for the player, talk about feeling the highs and lows of the game in the space of 4 days.

Any idea who is stand by or have they been named. Think Mike Blair will get the call!

chupacabra

Yeah, it looked bad alright. David Wallace i think, fell over him and TOL's ankle just twisted inwards. He was pretty devastated and was rushed to hospital. Looks like a fracture.

toomevara

chupacabra wrote: »

Yeah, it looked bad alright. David Wallace i think, fell over him and TOL's ankle just twisted inwards. He was pretty devastated and was rushed to hospital. Looks like a fracture.

Rugby is a cruel, cruel mistress...Care or Blair to step in I reckon...

dreamer_ire

chupacabra wrote: »

Yeah, it looked bad alright. David Wallace i think, fell over him and TOL's ankle just twisted inwards. He was pretty devastated and was rushed to hospital. Looks like a fracture.

Talk in the Munster camp is that it is broken

toomevara wrote: »

Rugby is a cruel, cruel mistress...Care or Blair to step in I reckon...

My money would be on Care, Blair has not been on his usual form this season. Last year I would have said Blair's name was one of the first on the team sheet.

myflipflops

Very unfortunate. I was talking about O'Leary with a few mates the other day. He has to have been the most improved player in the Lions countries over the last 2 years. The notion back in maybe 2006 that he would be a tourist would have been laughable but he deservedly earned the spot. It's a shame.

I'm not sure (even as a Leinster fan and generally a Stringer detractor) that it will be a major loss in terms of the Heineken semi final though.

il gatto

Gutted for TOL. Would've been a hugh boon to his career, with the Grandslam and a possible HEC as well as being a Lion all in one year. What a way to cement his reputation it would've been. Probably won't play until at least the start of next season now.

Blair or possibly any one of Care, Cussiter or Peel will get the call up. Personally I think Stringer is the most different to Phillips and Ellis. He can dig the ball out, throw quick passes and generally bring some urgency to a teams performance. I don't see him getting called up though.

I think, even though we were thrilled with 14 Lions, that if we end up with 13, the same a 4th place Wales in the 6N, it's hardly a fair reflection of the form in the home nations. Wales have had players selected that are really struggling form wise, the likes of Shane Williams, Matthew Rees and the found out Andy Powell. We may have been luckyish to have the likes of TOL, Fitz and Quinland selected (due to competition for particular spots, not that they aren't up to it), but surely Horan, D'Arcy, Hayes and Best must be a little disappointed. Overall, I don't think 13 all, so to speak, properly reflects the strenght of Irish rugby, as opposed to Welsh rugby. I don't think we could've wished for more, but I'm sure English and Scots players are rightly miffed at such a big selection of Welsh. Now that the dust has settled a bit, I do wonder at the supposed "form" selections in certain positions. Surely having Gats, Edwards and Howley must have had some influence?

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

Sorry to be the one to break it to you joe, but the Munster backs's handling skills are on a different planet to the Leinster's back at the moment. Way, way better. Do you watch Munster at all?

Just to tie this into the Lions tour - yeah, I do watch Munster, but don't go out of my way to. So missed today's game.

Look at the Leinster - Wasps game back in the autumn (and remember that McGeechan and Edwards were at that too) - those are players with unreal potential.

Whose actually going to be the backs coach for the Lions tour?

And was gutted to find out about O'Leary when I got home. Feel really sorry for the guy, he's earned his place, and was lucky that guys with great reputations were completely outshone by him...

I suppose if he doesn't recover Care or someone will come in?

il gatto

Rob Howley is backs coach.

NickNolte

Damn. Does anyone know of TOL is definitely out of the tour? I'm too lazy and hungover to use Google.

Junior

NickNolte wrote: »

Damn. Does anyone know of TOL is definitely out of the tour? I'm too lazy and hungover to use Google.

From Breakingnews.ie

Ireland scrum-half Tomas O’Leary looks set to miss the British and Irish Lions tour to South Africa.

O’Leary was carried off on a stretcher in the first half of Munster’s Magners League clash against the Scarlets in Cork last night.

He was taken to hospital amid initial speculation that he had suffered a serious leg injury.

Lions head coach Ian McGeechan named a 37-man squad on Tuesday but there must already be serious doubt about O’Leary’s participation.

If he is ruled out of the 10-match tour, which starts in Rustenburg on May 30, the likes of Dwayne Peel, Danny Care and Scotland captain Mike Blair will be in contention to replace him.

Early indications were that O’Leary had suffered a suspected fractured ankle.

However from trawling all the usual news sites - I've seen no actual confirmation of what the injury is.