Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

chem

bunny shooter wrote: »

chem,

Love the signature :D

For sure Chem.THAT will get you undivided attention here.

Yea, might change it incase people cant see the joke in it :rolleyes: PR and PC stuff tends to get in the way of things these days;)

Grizzly 45

Fecks sake Chem ..Leave it alone!:rolleyes: Originality and a sense of humour is somthing to be admired in these PC days..Feck em if they cant take a joke.

chem

Sparks wrote: »

Amendments can be made in Committee stage to totally rewrite the Bill if so desired chem (that's what happened with the CJB2004 - there were more amendments than original text when McDowell was done with it).

But who is going be seen to hold up a bill against gang lords and criminal scum? Its like having a pay increase for government attached to more money for cancer kids wards, bill.

Oh and is the sig OK?

chem

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Fecks sake Chem ..Leave it alone!:rolleyes: Originality and a sense of humour is somthing to be admired in these PC days..Feck em if they cant take a joke.

10/4 rubber ducky. If you ever meet me you will know I stand my ground. But just dont wana get a ban for a joke:rolleyes: as I do post on other fourms here!

Saying that wouldnt mind having a energetic chemicals and rxns fourm here:D but how many irish laws would it break:p Chemistry degree wasted:p

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

I'd agree with you about the Minister -

Sparks wrote: »

but I've been talking with the people in the department for a while and I just don't get that sense from them. Their hands are certainly tied in some regards because they're civil servants and obligated by law to do what the Minister directs them to do, but where they've had leeway, they've always used it to do as little harm to us as they could.

The Minister doesn't sit in on the FCP meetings?

So why waste time talking to the civil servants if it's the Minister who decides anyway?

FCP should withdraw from the process until the Minister agrees to sit at the table too :mad:

Votes is the only thing he understands.

He need to be shown that there are a lot of votes at stake here and until we do that we are wasting out time.

ONE organisation/lobbying group needs to be formed with every firearms licence holder signed up to it or elase we are simply wasting our time.

The NGB's must have membership lists? They should send a letter to every member and get a huge petition sorted for the Minister to realise that there is a lot of voters out there that are very unhappy.

Now is the time that the NGB's are gonna have to put up or shut up and those in these positions of power on the NGB's are gonna have to explain to future generations why they did nothing NOW !

Sparks

chem wrote: »

But who is going be seen to hold up a bill against gang lords and criminal scum? Its like having a pay increase for government attached to more money for cancer kids wards, bill.

Hence the requirement for our sports to pay special care to their public image and to ditch the old routine of hiding away and not gaining positive press. Hell, the only reason Olympic stuff is being given an exemption here is because of that positive public image - it'd be in the can with everything else in a heartbeat without that public image.

Oh and is the sig OK?

Nope. That's not how you spell forum.

Hibrion

I don't think any TD will put his/her neck on the line for us. Purely because of the associations (which don't exist in reality) between licensed firearms and illegally held weapons.
The problems is that public perception is being warped through the fear created by these unjustly drawn associations.
Fear is why so many Americans carry firearms for personnel protection and why they are seen by other states as out of control gun nuts, thus their legislation has been changed to account for this.
The real problem is that the government focused the bad press directed at them for not dealing with the gangland crimes onto the shooting community and the licensing laws. Until this there was no fear from the public about legally held handguns.

The next step will be no semi auto anything, then no stalking calibers, then varmint calibers disappear, then airguns, until our kids won't even be able to own a water pistol or a cap gun because the terrified pensioner down the road thinks its a terrorist because of the fear that the government has created.

So what should we do?

We, literally we, the people who talk about our sport every day on boads need to take action.
How many people here no another dozen or more hunters and target shooters who have a passion for their sport, and how many farmers are glad of the protection provided to their land and crops by our pest control etc.... ALOT!!

We need to be seen to be publicly protesting this legislation, that is the only thing that works in this country.
Then the opposition jumps on the ban wagon, highlights how inadequately the issue has been approached and it becomes a lot easier to fix this problem and prevent more similarly ridiculous legislation being enacted.

So why are we not silently marching down the streets of Dublin in an orderred and unthreatening way that will draw major attention to our problems?

Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but I am really sick and tired of this situation. As someone who loves hunting and was reeally looking forward to being able to break into target shooting soon I am understandable dissappointed, albeit alot less than all of the guys who own pistols already.

Thanks.

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

The Minister doesn't sit in on the FCP meetings?

Not normally, so far as I know (I don't get an invite myself either). But that's par for the course for this sort of body, clean across the board. The Minister for Transport doesn't sit in on RSA meetings either for example.

So why waste time talking to the civil servants if it's the Minister who decides anyway?

Because that's how it works in every department of the government.

FCP should withdraw from the process until the Minister agrees to sit at the table too :mad:

Erm, I think you're confusing who is what there BS. The FCP is run by the Department - which means that civil servants would have to act against the Minister to do what you're asking for. And if the NGBs withdraw from the FCP, then there's no official channel left to use.
(Which is why it's so important that there be grassroots protest on this)

bunny shooter

Thing I see with public marches is they cold be hi-jacked by people with their own agendas and this could make things worse for us.

I reckon the solution is why try to change the law shouldn't we be striving to be in a position where we make the law?

If one of the major parties out there decided to support legal firearms ownership they could stand to gain a lot of voters

And the next general election is gonna be very tight numbers wise to form a government

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

He need to be shown that there are a lot of votes at stake here and until we do that we are wasting out time.

+1

ONE organisation/lobbying group needs to be formed with every firearms licence holder signed up to it or elase we are simply wasting our time.

Oh god, not this again.
Bunny, you try that, and every little hitler out there, known and new, will storm the gates looking to run it so they can go to the big dinners and wear the blazer and get in the photos. How often have we seen that in the past? Hell, there are little hitlers out there right now trying to do this, and using this problem as an excuse.

And worse, it won't work. You said it yourself, the Minister looks at votes. If one person walks up and says "I represent 200,000 people", it does not hit home as hard as 200,000 people calling the Minister up to complain. It just doesn't.

Look, if you don't want this to happen, don't wait for anyone or anything else. Don't wait for the grand poobah of the Ultimate Association to organise something because you'll see the underside of your tombstone first. Get off your backside and call your TD, visit him at his clinic, write to him, email him, do the same for the Minister and the TDs on the Justice committee. That is what'll stop or deflect this.

bunny shooter

Ya meant to write NGB.'s withdraw from FCP

We can write here for eternity and what will it solve?

Sweet F.... A.....

as long as the Minister disagrees with us................

So one man can decide what over 200,000 shooters ish need or want?

That ain't democracy ffs :mad:

Hibrion

But the fact is no party is going to support us because of the image that has been painted by this government.
We need to be on the news showing that we have a sport and aren't criminals. We have to start doing something ourselves to be deemed worthy of help from others.
As for the march, I think a silent one would demonstrate effectively we are a calm bunch of non psychos who want to be heard.

I approached a local TD and pointed out the votes he stood to gain from backing this, he wasn't interested.

Sparks

Hibrion wrote: »

So why are we not silently marching down the streets of Dublin in an orderred and unthreatening way that will draw major attention to our problems?

Because tabloid newspapers (and a few broadsheets) don't care about the details, they care how many papers are sold, and "ARMED MOB MARCHES ON DAIL" appeals to the lowest common denominator more than "TARGET SHOOTERS PEACEFULLY PROTEST UNFAIR BILL".
It's like Dog Bites Man isn't news, but Possible Rabies Outbreak is...

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

.....Get off your backside and call your TD, visit him at his clinic, write to him, email him, do the same for the Minister and the TDs on the Justice committee. That is what'll stop or deflect this.

I am :P

bunny shooter

What we need to do is convince some thugs somewhere to start using golf clubs to commit crimes.

Then we can all protest we want golfers treated the same as us.

Golf courses will have to be authorised, you will only be allowed to have 4 golf clubs, you will have to pay a licence fee for them, you have to have secure storage and depending if you have a titanium driver with a big head on it that would defo warrant a monitored alarm

Reckon no TD in the country would accept this :eek:

Beginning to think I might sell me firearms and just take up golf

Is there any prohibitive legislation due to be enacted affecting golf or golfers?



Should he have a golf club

Hibrion

Sparks wrote: »

Because tabloid newspapers (and a few broadsheets) don't care about the details, they care how many papers are sold, and "ARMED MOB MARCHES ON DAIL" appeals to the lowest common denominator more than "TARGET SHOOTERS PEACEFULLY PROTEST UNFAIR BILL".
It's like Dog Bites Man isn't news, but Possible Rabies Outbreak is...

I agree that this could happen, so it should be very carefully constructed so as no one can define it as a 'mob'.
I just think that we need our own public image to combat the on they have created and we can't create this without some sort of public spectacle to be focused on.

Papers will sell if they point out how the government have tried to evade one problem by targeting law abiding citizens, especially with a 10% approval rating.

Hibrion

Good one bunny!

We should ban all screwdrivers seen as they are a very common weapon for stabbings.
Due to the surge in stabbings in this country a crackdown on the supply of deadly screwdrivers will be enacted immediately. All screws in the ROI will henceforth be screwed with electric screwdrivers measuring over 60cm, the bit of which should not be any bigger than 15mm.:D

Grizzly 45

Remember that this bill isnt just about firearms either.There is enough disquiet on the rest of the bill regarding the human rights issues. So there is also a good chance that the other issues may send it back for review.

Grassroots movement is needed again here..We did it before with the CJB,[and in a not too small contribution from Boards.ie I might add;)],we did help to bring about the FCP,be it good,bad or indifferent.Not to mind shake every politican in Ireland by letting them know we were here and peed off.Comments like;"I am inundated with emails,letters,faxes,and phone calls from shooters" " I didnt realise there was such a strong feeling on this issue out there." was the norm of the day at the time.
WE,us Irish gunowners did this.
WE,wether we were pistol shooters,deer stalkers,clay busters,or whatever turned this.
WE still can and must do it again.
WE have the advantage on our side again,it is local and EU election time.The last thing a TD or Minister wants is their lines of communication blocked again with a blitz of Emails and a blizzard of faxes on a badly thought out Bill,with their party's pouplarity going down faster than the Titanic in it's final moments!

Are YOU going to do your part again???
Will YOU forget about differnces of personal likes/dislikes of a paticular aspect of our sport and support your fellow gunowner??
Will YOU again email,phone and fax all and sundry TD's and ministers,and not leave it to a select few to do all the work ???

Without YOU,We will all be slowly killed off over the coming years.Dont think just because pistols will be bannd it wont be a certain type of rifle,then a certain type of shotgun,then finally the traditional rifle and shotgun.Until nothing exists anymore.

We have done enough talking,moaning,complaining,speculating and argueing over the months here on this issue.That time is now over!WE must now stand to and do our own bit to preserve our sport for ourselves and future generations.
Man your Stations.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Because tabloid newspapers (and a few broadsheets) don't care about the details, they care how many papers are sold, and "ARMED MOB MARCHES ON DAIL" appeals to the lowest common denominator more than "TARGET SHOOTERS PEACEFULLY PROTEST UNFAIR BILL".
It's like Dog Bites Man isn't news, but Possible Rabies Outbreak is...

Well,heres a better one... For publicity purposes ..Seeing that the Minister/Gardai now wants that we provide certs that we are sane to own a firearm.I suggest we ask all future and current Ministers in the Dail to do likewise.Lets face it a Minister with a pen can do more damage than a nutter with a gun anyday,on a greater scale andfor a longer time to a country.
Going by the way some decisions have been made by the ruling elite in the not so distant past,anyone would question their sanity.
After all, if people can ask nowadys for a tax clearence cert,from politicans why should it not be beyond question to ask is somone who has the grave responsibility of running this country back to prosperity or further ruin are they up to the mental stress of this job???

Jonty

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Well,heres a better one... For publicity purposes ..Seeing that the Minister/Gardai now wants that we provide certs that we are sane to own a firearm.I suggest we ask all future and current Ministers in the Dail to do likewise.Lets face it a Minister with a pen can do more damage than a nutter with a gun anyday,on a greater scale andfor a longer time to a country.
Going by the way some decisions have been made by the ruling elite in the not so distant past,anyone would question their sanity.
After all, if people can ask nowadys for a tax clearence cert,from politicans why should it not be beyond question to ask is somone who has the grave responsibility of running this country back to prosperity or further ruin are they up to the mental stress of this job???

For politicians to prove they are sane, surely they must have something between their two ears first??:D

BornToKill

rrpc wrote: »

There is nothing in that bill that I can find either about mental health checks, character references or safe storage. There may well be such stipulations within the Commissioner's guidelines, but they haven't been published yet (if they ever will be).

It's in the CJA 2006. It's Section 32(4)(3)(4)&(5):

(3) An applicant for a firearm certificate shall supply to the issuing person the information requested in the application form and such further information as the issuing person may require in the performance of the person’s functions under this Act, including, in particular—


(a) proof of identity,


(b) proof of competence in the use of the firearm concerned,


(c) written consent for any enquiries in relation to the applicant’s medical history that may be made from a health professional by or on behalf of the issuing person, and


(d) names and addresses of two referees who may be contacted to attest to the applicant’s character.


(4) A member of the Garda Síochána may inspect the accommodation for a firearm provided by an applicant for a firearm certificate or require the applicant to provide proof of its existence.


(5) The Minister, in consultation with the Commissioner, may by regulations provide for minimum standards to be complied with by holders of firearm certificates in relation to the provision of secure accommodation for their firearms.

You can see it here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/act/pub/0026/sec0032.html

This bill will lead to the three year license and the commencement of section 32 which is sitting on the books since 2006.

ancienthunter

Right so the debate must come to an end and ACTION must take place to ensure the best result we have to do things that are effective.

The media and public perception has to be molded. There is no point arguing a point with people who are lieing. So we must play them at their own game, which is politics right! and the best way to do that is broadcast a simple fact that cannot be deined even be Symptomatic to the other side. Offer a more effective alternative that will do more good for Ireland, this may well be very technical possibly something that will piss off the drug lords.

Then we will be in a better state because people will turn on their news and think this guy really knows what hes talking about. From this people will not fear the unknowen because they will have been versed. They will have situtation awareness.

In this state of public opinion we can simply offer advise and the ineffective bill will look stupid.

So objectives please no time to waste
get to your t.d asap even the baddies
if your on media be simple and kept the point clear e.g no difference with handguns, real routes of ilegal guns, little advantage with handguns for crimimal, shotguns and rifles have advantages and disadvantages too. Licencing system still one of the best in the world. Need to investigate school shooting phenomomen properly. Licence holders are checked. Public perception of the handgun vs shotguns (i.e proper gentleman on his estate) 50 cent with his glock or whatever make a joke of it!! you know thats what people like to listen to. the public don't have a clue about guns treat them with humor and take away that unnessasary fear for nothing then we will be getting somewhere. don't reinforce there fear by saying we have all trained for 2 years to hold a pistol that would be making them sound unnesasarly complicated. Main thing is that pistols are somewhat more dangerous but nothing for people like us, its all just a breeze, its no bother, you know what I mean

Sparks

BornToKill wrote: »

It's in the CJA 2006. It's Section 32(4)(3)(4)&(5):

In which case the Minister is signalling in that speech that he'll use Section 27 of this Bill to issue guidelines to the Supers that they have to ask for some or all of those things.
Which isn't great, given how little technical knowlege the Minister seems to have about target shooting.

Sparks

ancienthunter wrote: »

So objectives please no time to waste

Sure.
Objective (1) : Get off butt. Do not wait for guidance from above. Do not leave it to someone else.
Objective (2) : Contact local TDs and complain about this Bill and ask them to oppose it.
Objective (3) : Contact Minister and complain about this Bill.
Objective (4) : Contact TDs on Justice Committee and complain about this Bill and ask them to oppose it.

chem

BornToKill wrote: »

It's in the CJA 2006. It's Section 32(4)(3)(4)&(5):

(3) An applicant for a firearm certificate shall supply to the issuing person the information requested in the application form and such further information as the issuing person may require in the performance of the person’s functions under this Act, including, in particular—


(a) proof of identity,


(b) proof of competence in the use of the firearm concerned,


(c) written consent for any enquiries in relation to the applicant’s medical history that may be made from a health professional by or on behalf of the issuing person, and


(d) names and addresses of two referees who may be contacted to attest to the applicant’s character.


(4) A member of the Garda Síochána may inspect the accommodation for a firearm provided by an applicant for a firearm certificate or require the applicant to provide proof of its existence.


(5) The Minister, in consultation with the Commissioner, may by regulations provide for minimum standards to be complied with by holders of firearm certificates in relation to the provision of secure accommodation for their firearms.

You can see it here:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/act/pub/0026/sec0032.html

This bill will lead to the three year license and the commencement of section 32 which is sitting on the books since 2006.

Minister Ahern? Is that You?

BornToKill

chem wrote: »

Minister Ahern? Is that You?

Haha! No. Really.

chem

BornToKill wrote: »

Haha! No. Really.

your in the right town anyways have you met with the minister youeself and asked some questions?

BornToKill

Living out in Cooley and I've never met the man at all Chem.

kkelly77

Hello all,

I know there is alreay a thread dedicated to this bill, but I wanted start a new one to ensure everyone reads it.

Right so, time for action. Can we organise an agreed letter/email that can be sent to all our local representatives that will only have to be signed by anyone in disagreement with the crimial justice bill? I think this will make things easier for both us as well as those in power as I'm sure they won't read every indivdual complaint. But at least they can count the number of those opposed to this new bill. What do you think?

K

Sparks

kkelly77 wrote: »

Hello all,
I know there is alreay a thread dedicated to this bill, but I wanted start a new one to ensure everyone reads it.

Please don't. Threads merged.