Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

Rosahane

We will all have the opportunity to make our opinions felt in seventeen days time!

Given the likely outcome of that process Fianna Fail and their Green camp followers will be left in no doubt about the public's opinion of their management of the country.

This will inevitably meen that the Greens will leave Gov. Biffo will be pushed out to make way for either "atrocious" Aherne" or "moanie" Martin. The ensueing general election will put in place a government composed of people that are at least prepared to talk to us and the new Minister for Justice will be Charlie Flanagan. We can then work with him to bring in some much needed and sensible leglisation to govern the whole firearms issue which might actually deal with the real issues :-)

Sparks

Here's hoping!

chem

Still notting from the NARGC?? Been checking there site every day and NOTTING:eek:

Rovi

Sparks wrote: »

It wasn't quite that bad chem, I think you didn't hear the full thing. Didn't get it recorded, but listened to it live. Points made were things like the 30 stolen pistols statistic, the difference in security requirements between pistol owners and shotgun owners (and yeah, it was a bit rough on farmers), and mentioned M.Walls (though not by name) as being 4th in the world in pistol shooting. The segment wasn't long enough to get much detail in there. But at least Dave didn't reiterate how olympic shooting was paint-drying ****e

It's now available on the 4fm site:
http://www.4fm.ie/profile.asp?id=1

Here's a grab of the relevant item (7MB .mp3 file):
http://www.mediafire.com/?5l3gkjy11ob

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

Here's hoping!

TBH do we really believe a FG led coalition will treat us any better?

I personally don't

Ned Muldhoon

Bill goes to second stage at 11:30 this morning

Slav

bunny shooter wrote: »

TBH do we really believe a FG led coalition will treat us any better?

I might be too optimistic here but from my observations the public opinion has shifted slightly towards the positive attitude to the shooting sports. I don't think that support of shooting disciplines will ever be in any Irish party agenda but I hope now FG is more capable to realise that attacking legally held firearms owners won't necessary bring easy political dividends. In case of FF, they keep demonstrating difficulties with adequate assertion of the reality. The guys are just tired, they need a break.

daveob007

Just gat an email from charles flanagan fg spokesman on justice.
he informed me that he will raise our comments and suggestions in this mornings debate.

that dont mean that he is with us but at least it opens the debate

chem

daveob007 wrote: »

Just gat an email from charles flanagan fg spokesman on justice.
he informed me that he will raise our comments and suggestions in this mornings debate.

that dont mean that he is with us but at least it opens the debate

Is there a site that show the dail live? Dail TV

Found it!

http://www.oireachtas.ie/ViewDoc.asp?fn=/documents/livewebcast/Web-Live.htm&CatID=83&m=o

Its on now!!!!!!!!!!!

Darr

you know I nearly wish you hadnt posted that link .. i have made the mistake of watching it .. seems that nothing we or NGB have said have been taken on board. basicly we are all bad or may be come bad ..
Darr

Talking about handguns here .

V Bull

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/livewebcast/DailFlash512KB.htm

Its on now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tonysopprano

Fair play to Charlie Flanagan, got some good points across.

But did you count how many politicians were, Ahern Flagan, the Speaker and 4others. Where were the other 160+?

Darr

Had to dash to lunch , can you expand on the points that C Flanagan Got across .
Thanks

daveob007

Just trying to watch the debate but my stupid eircom broadband keeps freezing.
got some of what ahern said,,,same old thing we have been hearing all along/ no surprises there.
also only got a few snippets of charles flanagan but sounds he has been saying the same as us??? dont know for sure.
can the debate be downloaded in full somewhere so we can see the whole thing in comfort???

daveob007

dail debate suspended till 2.30

looks like the minister has his mind made up on this one.
all depends how it goes in the next stages,will anyone be able to get it changed or not.
all parties seem to be aware of our stance by now thanks to the mails we sent and the other interested parties also.
heres hoping

tonysopprano

Licenced firearms not the problem

Questioned ministers figures on stolen firearms particularly handguns and
asked that the figures be produced and stood over

Quoted how ban in UK after Dunblane/Hungerford did not work

Questioned hand gun culture(said that more than 1000 hot tubs were
bought during Celtic Tiger but do we have a hot tub culture

Reiterated that 99.9% of illegal guns come with drug shipments

tonysopprano

Debate adjorned until 2.30pm but Charlie has moved onto knives and swords

daveob007

tonysopprano wrote: »

Debate adjorned until 2.30pm but Charlie has moved onto knives and swords

sounds good but is that just for votes or is he really listening.

Breachloader

Exactly as Tony says above... Not exactly a full house to preach to, but fair dues to Charlie for taking a stance on our behalf... Not finished yet though, will recommence at 2.30

Heres hoping.

meathshooter

As far as I could see only Charles Flanagan and Pat Rabbit present on the opposition benches

chem

Is that it? Onto agri issues now.

Darr

Hi all ,
I had written my own mail to my local TD and copied the minister of justice .
But it was written on a personal level and so I didn’t want to post it here .

So I took SPARKS excellent letter and basically removed some of the parts and added the bits towards the end ..

here is what I came out with .

Dear Minster,
I write with a deep sense of alarm and distaste at your proposed
Criminal Justice(Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009. I have studied the published
Bill as much as any lay person can and I have just read your issued press
release regarding this Bill, and I must protest in the strongest possible
terms this proposed piece of legislation. It is grossly unjust and ineffective,
and will not achieve the aims you have set out for it.

To begin, I wish to point out that there has been NO alarming growth in
the number of handguns in this state since 2004. In fact, per capita,
there are currently far fewer handguns licensed since the most recent
comparable year, 1972. Further, the available statistics you have
provided on handguns are distressingly poor - for example, it is much
reported that some 30-odd handguns were stolen over the last few years,
but on examination we discover that these were listed as stolen prior
to 2004 - I have not yet heard an explanation from your office as to
how pistols could have been stolen from their licensed owners before
those pistols were licensed to them!

I must also protest at this ridiculous comparison you have repeatedly
drawn between firearms legislation here and the situation in America.
We have, simply put, a body of law regarding firearms in this state
that is amongst the most rigorous and restrictive in the entire EU. We
class as firearms items which no other EU state classes as firearms
(for example, Olympic air guns are classed as firearms nowhere else in
the entire world). How you can state we will wind up with a "handgun
culture" here when we have such a body of law and so few firearms per
capita is beyond reason.

Further, I must point out that the Bill as written, if enacted, would
not lead to anything resembling a comprehensive or effective firearms
code. It will in fact fail completely to regulate that which you seek
to control (namely the criminal abuse of guns). It does not fund the
Gardai to enforce existing legislation; it merely impacts on those of
us who take it upon ourselves as law-abiding citizens to adhere to the
law of the land. And by definition, *we are not the problem here*.

As to the ban on personal importation of firearms and/or ammunition,
I can find no rational justification for this. It imposes serious
financial penalties on all shooters in Ireland as domestic firearms
dealers charge up to four times the price for ammunition and several
hundred Euros more for firearms than their counterparts even as close
by as Northern Ireland. This is nothing more than a state-sanctioned
monopoly, and I cannot see how it serves the public or in any way
protects the peace.

As to the mechanics of the handgun ban itself, the Bill is woefully
ill-written and ill-advised.

This Bill must not stand. It does nothing but damage the sport enjoyed
by hundreds of thousands of people in Ireland with no benefit for
the remainder of the population who seek protection from the crime
problem posed by drugs in this country. It is an unjust, unfair and
unsupportable piece of legislation and I urge you most strongly to
withdraw it.

There is very little I can do about this flawed bill except to let you know
My views and to make cast my vote on election day. I had very little reason
to continue to vote for FF over the other parties as I believe the polices
from all are very similar . But you have provided me with a reason to not
vote FF again , you have placed Licensed firearm holders in the same
Category as criminals and made us out to be a danger, you have done nothing
In this bill which will affect how criminals get or use firearms .
In response to this both my wife and I shall certainly not be voting for your party
In all future and upcoming elections both local and EU .
This is also the case for the majority of other FA holders that I know .
The public also has not been fooled by this as can be seen by many comments
Made in public, on air, and on the net in fact it has been revealed as a
Basic sound bite, a media snippet and act to go after the soft target so to speak

This bill has cost FF in

My household 3 votes
My family 4 votes
Friends 2+ votes
My Club 100+ votes


Kind Regards
XXXXXXXXX


It’s all well and good us saying here that we are been unfairly used as a scapegoat etc etc ..
Has every one sent a mail, a fax , a letter ,a smoke signal , a carrier pigeon .. it matters not one bit once they get the message that there are more of us then they assume ..

I don’t have a pistol I wanted to progress to pistols but this option has been taken from me hence why I sent that .

Darr

Sparks

...and in the Dail we're back, talking about knives...

Sparks

Firearms dealership stuff, airsoft stuff being bumped to committee stage for discussion.

Sparks

...handguns being mentioned, stress being placed on the existing rigorous rules and such that are in place and the Minister being called upon to acknowlege this.

Pat Rabbit now rising to speak.

Sparks

Firearms acts amendments being highlighted as what Pat Rabbitte expects to be promoted the most, but he's saying that the link between our stuff and preventing gun crime isn't easy to see.

Sparks

It looks like all the heavy digging is being bumped to committee stage, and the Minister has apparently promised more amendments at the committee stage (does that ring any bells for anyone's memory? )

Sparks

...and back to the firearms stuff...

Sparks

...challanging the notion that this bill will clamp down on gun crime and saying this'll be gone into in more detail at committee. Initial impressions were that anything that prevented gun crime would be a good thing and that most people would feel this way; but the more one looks at the bill, the more you see this bill will have no impact on gun crime and significant impact on law-abiding shooters.
Criminals don't get their hands on licenced guns; answers to PQs from the Ministers show there is no credible evidence to link licenced handguns to crime (cite's April 23's PQ on this).

Sparks

...looking at the disparity between Minister's statements and previous PQ answers. Pointing out that less than 1% of firearms legally held are pistols; pointing out what they're used for; pointing out that some people have more than one pistol as you use different pistols for different matches, so there's maybe 5-600 people with pistols, not a proliferation.

Er, April 22, not 23 above.

Mention of the April 22 answer above, and drilling away on the lack of evidence of stolen licenced firearms being used in crime.

Labour supports modernising of the legislation but not the crushing of our sport; target shooting is not insignificant. If there was evidence for firearms from 40-odd ranges getting into criminal hands, they'd support it, but there isn't so they don't support the handgun ban. This is kneejerk legislation, being spun as 'tough action'.