Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2009

daveob007

does anyone know how i would get a download of the whole thing?
my crappy eircom broedband let me down and kept freezing
would love to see it all.

sounds good from pat rabbitte from what i have read so far,i will send him a mail also.
thanks for all that info.

anyone know what happens next??

lordarpad

Sparks wrote: »

Actually, on that point:

Joint Committee on Justice:

TD|Email Address
Brendan Kenneally, Fianna Fáil (Chairman)|bwk@eircom.net|
Dinny McGinley, Fine Gael (Vice Chairman)|dinny.mcginley@oireachtas.ie|
Sean Connick, Fianna Fáil (Government Convenor)|sean.connick@oireachtas.ie|
Brian O'Shea, Labour Party (Opposition Convenor)|boshea@eircom.net|
Darragh O'Brien, Fianna Fáil|darragh.obrien@oireachtas.ie|
Thomas Byrne, Fianna Fáil|thomas.byrne@oireachtas.ie|
Jimmy Deenihan, Fine Gael|jdeenihan@eircom.net|
Michael Mulcahy, Fianna Fáil|michael.mulcahy@oireachtas.ie|
Dennis Naughten, Fine Gael|denis.naughten@oireachtas.ie|
Charlie Flanagan, Fine Gael|charles.flanagan@oireachtas.ie|
Niall Collins, Fianna Fáil|niall.collins@oireachtas.ie|
Pat Rabbitte, Labour Party|pat.rabbitte@oireachtas.ie|
Noel Tracey, Fianna Fáil|noel.treacy@oireachtas.ie|
Senator|Email address
Eugene Regan, Fine Gael|Eugene.Regan@oireachtas.ie
Ivana Bacik, Independent|Ivana.Bacik@oireachtas.ie
Lisa McDonald, Fianna Fáil|Lisa.McDonald@oireachtas.ie
Denis O'Donovan, Fine Gael|Denis.ODonovan@oireachtas.ie


Or, all as one list:

bwk@eircom.net, dinny.mcginley@oireachtas.ie, sean.connick@oireachtas.ie, boshea@eircom.net, darragh.obrien@oireachtas.ie, thomas.byrne@oireachtas.ie, jdeenihan@eircom.net, michael.mulcahy@oireachtas.ie, denis.naughten@oireachtas.ie, charles.flanagan@oireachtas.ie, niall.collins@oireachtas.ie, pat.rabbitte@oireachtas.ie, noel.treacy@oireachtas.ie, Eugene.Regan@oireachtas.ie, Ivana.Bacik@oireachtas.ie, Lisa.McDonald@oireachtas.ie, Denis.ODonovan@oireachtas.ie

guys, if you email all of them, send the email to yourself and bcc them, that way they don't see that they have all been emailed ...

J.R.

just watching Oireachtas report.

Dermot Ahern just said no more new licences to be issued for handguns except in exceptional circumstances.

Sparks

Threads merged.

realismpol

hilarious. Someone point out to these people that we don't nor have we ever had a 'gun culture'. Mass shootings in ireland in any public place have never happened not once ever in the history of the state. Terrorist acts were based on a political theory and idealogy during the troubles. The use of guns during this time was used as a means to an end rather then a fascination with the weapon itself i.e a lust for firearms and all things shaped like firearms. I think we can safely say this is a lust alright a lust of the minister for control over people's lives and enjoyments.

No random gun owner has gone on a rampage ever in ireland and never will. So someone explain where the minister is getting the idea we have a gun culture. Id hate to see this guy in switzerland, the usa or even canada. He'd probably die from a heart attack in shock at the number of firearms. I will quote you a comment i read on yahoo news when an american posted a comment on the boards under the headline' irish justice minister plans to ban gun culture '

he said ' 2,000 guns you gotta be kidding??? theres more guns in my local gunstore..'

gun culture indeed

Kryten

These are a few of the points I mentioned in my letter to everyone on the list Sparks provided. Also copied the party leaders.

I also pointed out that 2000 handguns does not mean 2000 owners. I said that we already have tight controls and this in itself aids to stem the proliferation of handguns, and only those into shooting would be bothered to go through all the red tape.

cavan shooter

Folks oireachtas report last night (19th May) had the Minister answering questions in relation to ban on handguns. Pat Rabbitte defended the shooting community.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0519/oireachtasreport.html

Sparks feel free to move this if you want, didnt think a new thread was appropriate

Sikamick

It was good to see Pat Rabbitte and others bring to the attention of Minister Ahern that taking pistols away from legitimate Licensed Pistol holders will not stop the crime or killings.

He (Pat Rabbitte) also stated that people that have firearms are rigorously Vetted by the Garda before they get a license.

Sikamick

hk

Having read the bill and all the associated comments I am as distressed with this as anybody. However I am not in the least suprised by the majority of proposed controls, sadly I can even go so far as to say I can live with most of them. What really has me worried and I havnt really noticed it being picked up on here to any large extent is the provisions which will allow the minister to ban any type of firearm which HE feels is necessary. So my concern is as a pistol/fullbore rifle/ Pump shotgun owner is: Is the minister going to decide that he will ban these firearms in the near future, including all pistols incl pre Nov 07 once the leglislation is passed. IE the thing that worries me most is that the minister is giving himself the powers to ban at his leisure and whim any or all types of firearm without consultation with anybody, way to close to dictatorship policies for my liking. Also this leglislation do not let those of us who already own pistols to keep them, it provides for us to reapply for them, and there is nothing to say that one of these guidelines will not be used to stop the granting of a FAC for center fire pistols. In other words, im not even sure we will get to keep our firearms.

Half-cocked

hk wrote: »

Having read the bill and all the associated comments I am as distressed with this as anybody. However I am not in the least suprised by the majority of proposed controls, sadly I can even go so far as to say I can live with most of them. What really has me worried and I havnt really noticed it being picked up on here to any large extent is the provisions which will allow the minister to ban any type of firearm which HE feels is necessary. So my concern is as a pistol/fullbore rifle/ Pump shotgun owner is: Is the minister going to decide that he will ban these firearms in the near future, including all pistols incl pre Nov 07 once the leglislation is passed. IE the thing that worries me most is that the minister is giving himself the powers to ban at his leisure and whim any or all types of firearm without consultation with anybody, way to close to dictatorship policies for my liking. Also this leglislation do not let those of us who already own pistols to keep them, it provides for us to reapply for them, and there is nothing to say that one of these guidelines will not be used to stop the granting of a FAC for center fire pistols. In other words, im not even sure we will get to keep our firearms.

Thats a very important observation. I would like to think that the Minister of the day wouldn't ban a type of firearm without widespread consultation (FCP, Gardai, NGB's etc) but the reality is that he would ban anything to score a few brownie points with the press or to avoid a few embarassing PQ's:mad: The pistol ban is totaly unjustified, so what's to stop further unjustified bans at the stroke of the Ministerial pen? Think about how a Minister could look good in the media by introducing further bans/restrictions to tackle our rising 'gun culture'-

Ban pump action/semi auto shotguns
Ban semi auto rifles
Introduce a maximum magazine capacity
Ban 'dum dum' ammo
Reduce the amount of ammo you can possess on your license....

The list is endless and our Minister could be the big hero who saves Ireland from sinking into a US style gun culture!

daveob007

thats worrying alright that the minister might start to ban what he does not like.
Another thing i have a concern with and that i mailed my td and others on is the outsourcing of licences.
we are constantly been told to keep our security tight but if this goes ahead then other people other than your local gardai will have access to your details,address,type of gun etc.
anyone who has this knowledge could easily pass it on to criminals.
I am one of the people who had my pistol before nov 19th so should be able to keep it,but for how long,if this thing gets into law i might well lose it at another stage because its the dreaded,evil,criminal GLOCK
hopefully some of the things might get changed but the minister is really determined to push it.

sfakiaman

hk wrote: »

Having read the bill and all the associated comments I am as distressed with this as anybody. However I am not in the least suprised by the majority of proposed controls, sadly I can even go so far as to say I can live with most of them. What really has me worried and I havnt really noticed it being picked up on here to any large extent is the provisions which will allow the minister to ban any type of firearm which HE feels is necessary. So my concern is as a pistol/fullbore rifle/ Pump shotgun owner is: Is the minister going to decide that he will ban these firearms in the near future, including all pistols incl pre Nov 07 once the leglislation is passed. IE the thing that worries me most is that the minister is giving himself the powers to ban at his leisure and whim any or all types of firearm without consultation with anybody, way to close to dictatorship policies for my liking. Also this leglislation do not let those of us who already own pistols to keep them, it provides for us to reapply for them, and there is nothing to say that one of these guidelines will not be used to stop the granting of a FAC for center fire pistols. In other words, im not even sure we will get to keep our firearms.

I agree absolutely, the minister is, if nothing else, cunning and devious. He will try and push through what he can get away with and slip in a clause giving him absolute power. This is the most worrying part of the proposed legislation and would do justice to Mugabe or Hitler. I have made this point to my local TD.

Sparks

Hm. The debate isn't being resumed today (it's not on the order of business). Still has to be sent to committee officially so it will have to be discussed again in the Dail - might be an idea to write your TD and have him speak in there if possible...

daveob007

Sparks wrote: »

Hm. The debate isn't being resumed today (it's not on the order of business). Still has to be sent to committee officially so it will have to be discussed again in the Dail - might be an idea to write your TD and have him speak in there if possible...

good idea,we need to keep up the pressure and keep sending those mails.
some of them seem to be taking a bit of notice already pat rabbitte/charles flanagan.
we need someone in the ff party to see our side also but thats unlikely judging by the mail i got from my local td and minister,just repeated what the justice minister already said word for word.
opposition parties seem to be the way to go.

hk

daveob007 wrote: »

we need someone in the ff party to see our side also but thats unlikely judging by the mail i got from my local td and minister,just repeated what the justice minister already said word for word.
opposition parties seem to be the way to go.

I for one am sick of the party line standard emails, I have made this clear in my receint emails and have asked that they do not respond if they are only going to send a standard reply. I have made the point that it is dishartening and indicative that the points raised in individual emails are not even being read by our representatives. It will be interesting to see if they will even read that point or will they just send a standard reply upon seing the subject heading. I would rather a one line reply than another standard reply, it would at least show they have read the points made.

lykoris

I think it might also be worth mentioning if your e-mail to your representatives that every European country with the exception of Great Britain allows civilians to possess handguns.

Luxembourg has had handguns for decades and we have yet to have any ´shooting spree´ type incident, the Czech republic likewise and they even allow civilians ccw the same as the U.S.

Every shooter I know here has at least 3 handguns and our controls are significantly less in terms of storage - legally we are not even obliged to have a gun safe. It is a country with an enormous amount of firearms in civilian possession without any detrimental effect to society.

Given your extremely strict guidelines in vetting people/storage requirements - probably the strictest of all Europe, I´m surprised to say the least it has gotten to this stage.

daveob007

lykoris wrote: »

I think it might also be worth mentioning if your e-mail to your representatives that every European country with the exception of Great Britain allows civilians to possess handguns.

Luxembourg has had handguns for decades and we have yet to have any ´shooting spree´ type incident, the Czech republic likewise and they even allow civilians ccw the same as the U.S.

Every shooter I know here has at least 3 handguns and our controls are significantly less in terms of storage - legally we are not even obliged to have a gun safe. It is a country with an enormous amount of firearms in civilian possession without any detrimental effect to society.

Given your extremely strict guidelines in vetting people/storage requirements - probably the strictest of all Europe, I´m surprised to say the least it has gotten to this stage.

yes my friend but this is Ireland and there has always been a sort of taboo in relations to firearms,
we are very slow to change our attitudes as you can see by this new bill being proposed.also the minister relies too much on the word of a single person ie justice peter charliton,he is only one man with one opinion.
he should open both ears for a change.

lykoris

just saying that perhaps you could put the ROI firearms requirements in relation to handguns into a "European" perspective.

They are allowed in Northern Ireland for example to take a closer to home example.

You couldn´t really make the statement that NI has a ´gun culture´ when you look at legally licensed handguns.

the use of this term gun culture is intentionally used to deliberately make the public think of the U.S.

it´s deceitful and completely inaccurate.

J.R.

Dermot Ahern:
I will deal first with the sections which deal with matters of public safety and control. Section 28 addresses the licensing of handguns. For more than 30 years prior to 2004, all handguns were effectively banned in this jurisdiction. Following a series of judicial decisions, however, almost 2,000 handguns have been licensed in the past five years. This has come to pass without Government, Oireachtas or public policy decision and has resulted in an unacceptable new trend in the growth of handgun ownership which the House should now end. It would be disturbing if the assumption that a positive outcome for some shooting interest groups in some judicial review cases on licensing matters was somehow seen as an accretion of rights. This is flawed logic and I want to dispel any notions that there are any inherent rights to be considered here.

I am aware that some people have a strongly held view that once they are of good character and make the necessary secure arrangements for the storage of their firearms, they should be free to have firearms of any kind licensed to them. I do not agree with this view as it would constitute an unacceptable position in which where our gun laws could mirror those of countries such as those of the United States. If the current position were to continue unchecked, this scenario would be realised. We cannot allow this to happen. It is my duty as Minister to call “Stop” and address the current specific issues and longer-term strategic issues at the heart of this matter.

I would never be satisfied with circumstances in which firearms were freely available or, as in some jurisdictions, a notification system were in place under which one purchases a firearm and informs the authorities afterwards. I was conscious of the remarks made by Mr. Justice Peter Charleton in the High Court last July that a reasonable person is entitled to feel alarmed at the proliferation of handguns. I am aware, too, of calls made by many Members of the Oireachtas from parties on both sides to address this matter. It was against this background that I directed my Department and the Garda Síochána to carry out an urgent and intensive review of the firearms law. Following from that review, my proposals for reform in this area include a ban on issuing new licenses for handguns, although there will be limited exceptions for handguns designed for use in connection with competitions governed by International Olympic Committee regulations. As I announced at that time, those who already have licenses can, when they are due for renewal, apply to have them renewed albeit under the new licensing procedure where the safety of the community will be paramount.

Sparks

Moving posts to keep all the CJ(MP)B stuff together in this thread.

Hivemind187

J.R. wrote: »

Dermot Ahern:
I will deal first with the sections which deal with matters of public safety and control. Section 28 addresses the licensing of handguns. For more than 30 years prior to 2004, all handguns were effectively banned in this jurisdiction. Following a series of judicial decisions, however, almost 2,000 handguns have been licensed in the past five years. This has come to pass without Government, Oireachtas or public policy decision and has resulted in an unacceptable new trend in the growth of handgun ownership which the House should now end. It would be disturbing if the assumption that a positive outcome for some shooting interest groups in some judicial review cases on licensing matters was somehow seen as an accretion of rights. This is flawed logic and I want to dispel any notions that there are any inherent rights to be considered here.

I am aware that some people have a strongly held view that once they are of good character and make the necessary secure arrangements for the storage of their firearms, they should be free to have firearms of any kind licensed to them. I do not agree with this view as it would constitute an unacceptable position in which where our gun laws could mirror those of countries such as those of the United States. If the current position were to continue unchecked, this scenario would be realised. We cannot allow this to happen. It is my duty as Minister to call “Stop” and address the current specific issues and longer-term strategic issues at the heart of this matter.

I would never be satisfied with circumstances in which firearms were freely available or, as in some jurisdictions, a notification system were in place under which one purchases a firearm and informs the authorities afterwards. I was conscious of the remarks made by Mr. Justice Peter Charleton in the High Court last July that a reasonable person is entitled to feel alarmed at the proliferation of handguns. I am aware, too, of calls made by many Members of the Oireachtas from parties on both sides to address this matter. It was against this background that I directed my Department and the Garda Síochána to carry out an urgent and intensive review of the firearms law. Following from that review, my proposals for reform in this area include a ban on issuing new licenses for handguns, although there will be limited exceptions for handguns designed for use in connection with competitions governed by International Olympic Committee regulations. As I announced at that time, those who already have licenses can, when they are due for renewal, apply to have them renewed albeit under the new licensing procedure where the safety of the community will be paramount.

Heh, well if that doesnt reveal just how personal this anti-gun agenda of Mr. Ahern is then the only thing that will is him saying "I personally think all gunowners and users are criminals waiting for an opportunity" ... its really only a change of syntax in the end.

It is a frightenning realisation of just how far irrational prejudices and phobia's can go when they reside in those with power. Seeing how easily the man uses the word "rights", as if it were a gavel slamming down on the verdict of "guilty" is terrifying from any perspective, not simply that of firearms ownership.

I realise I tend to be prosaic but the fact is he is saying, quite clearly "we will not consider your position as though there may infact be any rights here at all". Perhaps I am over reacting a little but I can't help feeling (after reading the above) that this is a peresonal crusade on the behalf of the minister - to not consider that there may be a legitimate reason for the pursuit and that reason is not merely innocuous to society at large but altogether positive for those engaged in it is nothing short of the most grotesque intellectual dishonesty.

Sparks

The NASRPC statement:

Dear Clubs/Club Members/Fellow Shooters
Since the publication of the Miscellaneous Provisions Bill we have studied the documents in great detail. We have taken on board the views of the many people who contacted committee members directly with their concerns and have put together a strategy which we are now executing.

It was clear from the outset that the biggest problem facing us was going to be with pistols licensing and some related issues about elements of the sport.

Let me assure you that the committee is working tirelessly to bring about changes to this bill which will ensure that pistol shooting, both rimfire and centrefire, will remain and will continue to be a sustainable element of shooting sports in Ireland.

We are currently engaging in round of constructive dialogue with people who can help us. We will provide updates regularly on the situation as it develops.

The main points we are trying to address are as follows:

To ensure that Pistol License holders who are club members and have participated in shooting sports at club or National level will be able to continue to license their Firearms.

In order to secure the future of our sport there must be a mechanism for genuine sports shooters to obtain licenses for Centrefire Pistols.

To ensure that shooters who received their licenses since 19th of November 2008 do not have their licenses revoked.

To ensure that people who applied for Pistol Licenses before 19th of November 2008 and who meet the new licensing criteria are granted their licenses.

We would like to take the opportunity to thank all of those who are burning the midnight oil trying to find solutions to the problems facing us.

As usual, feedback and comments are welcome.
Regards
The NASRPC Committee

Slav

Dermo wrote: »

For more than 30 years prior to 2004, all handguns were effectively banned in this jurisdiction. Following a series of judicial decisions, however, almost 2,000 handguns have been licensed in the past five years. This has come to pass without Government, Oireachtas or public policy decision

Brilliant! A series of judicial decisions is obviously nothing compared to the government decision of 1972 in common law democratic Ireland. Some weight to the court decisions however can be given but only if they fully support the Minister's views. Otherwise they are just nuisance waiting for the brave Minister to put everything back to order.

rrpc

Dermot Ahern

This has come to pass without Government, Oireachtas or public policy decision

This is completely untrue by the way. A policy decision was made and by the Government and the Oireachtas as evidenced by the introduction and passing into law of the Criminal Justice Act 2006.

This was two years after Frank Brophy won his case and with the evidence of some 400 licences per year (the same growth rate that has shocked and horrified the current minister) the then Minister felt no need to amend the firearms laws in order to deal with the so-called 'gun culture' that was emerging.

In fact seeing as the firearms acts were augmented to the tune of some 20+ pages of law, it's hard to see how the then Minister could have been so blind as to not see the burgeoning horror and risk to our democracy that the legal situation and lack of policy in the area had created.

So when Minister Ahern says that it was not a Government policy decision what he really means is that it was not a Fianna Fail policy decision.

Either that or he was asleep for two years.

BornToKill

rrpc wrote: »

This is completely untrue by the way. A policy decision was made and by the Government and the Oireachtas as evidenced by the introduction and passing into law of the Criminal Justice Act 2006.

I don't think it's quite that simple though. The main sections of the CJA 2006 introducing restricted firearms and making it harder to license them haven't yet been commenced. They've been waiting on this Bill. That's why things didn't change that much immediately after the CJA 2006,

By the way, who is Seymour Crawford? I never even heard of him until yesterday when he came out with this:

'I note he mentioned in his speech those individuals going to the Special Olympics would have a possible right to get guns. They would need to have access to training to be eligible for that sort of thing.'

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20090520.xml&Node=H16&Page=17

rrpc

BornToKill wrote: »

I don't think it's quite that simple though. The main sections of the CJA 2006 introducing restricted firearms and making it harder to license them haven't yet been commenced. They've been waiting on this Bill. That's why things didn't change that much immediately after the CJA 2006,

I think it is. We're talking about policy decisions here and not logistical reasons as to why things could or couldn't be commenced.

The Minister introduced new firearms laws. These laws did not seek to ban anything or stop any sport. At no stage during the introduction or debating of the bill did the Minister say anything about 'gun culture' or the danger to the public of handguns being licenced.

Instead he intorduced laws that gave greater recognition to clubs and ranges and which acknowledged the sport of shooting. Yes there were changes in how licensing was to be carried out and restrictions on what could be licensed, but even the restrictions when they came out under a subsequent Minister did not at any point imply a ban.

By the way, who is Seymour Crawford? I never even heard of him until yesterday when he came out with this:

'I note he mentioned in his speech those individuals going to the Special Olympics would have a possible right to get guns. They would need to have access to training to be eligible for that sort of thing.'

There are no shooting sports in the Special Olympics.

Grizzly 45

Am really getting worried about some of his decisions and bills ...:eek:

1]Saying that Ireland would gladly accept the contents of Guntanmo Bay.
Ignoring the rights or wrongs of this issue.I cant see how it will help us here by taking on a bunch of possibly violent religious fanatics suspected of terrorism, whose sole intent is to destroy our way of life as it is evil in their eyes and to be lorded then here as oppressed victims of fascist US policies etc etc,by some of our more crazier members of Irish society.Havent we had enough of 35 years of two bunches of violent homegrown religious fanatics trying to shove their ideas on us???

2]The Blasphemy law.Somthing that belongs in the Dark ages,Saudi Arabia or in 1940s HCI along with industrial schools and Magdalene laundries and all the other good old days horrors that we have thankfully left behind.Not somthing in a modern somwhat liberal,multi ethnic 21st century Western "democracy"
Yet he seems intent in creating this cranks charter for every crackpot or God botherer out there to be "offended" by anything.

3] The handgun ban.Enough said on this already here.:rolleyes:

lordarpad

quick update: I have so far heard back from two TDs, my local and a justice committee member. Both Labour ...

To be quite honest my personal biggest concern is the restriction on importing, which I think is a typical FF measure to protect some commercial interests of friends of somebody in government. I'll further curtail competition in Ireland and will further increase prices for shooters.

bunny shooter

lordarpad wrote: »

........To be quite honest my personal biggest concern is the restriction on importing, which I think is a typical FF measure to protect some commercial interests of friends of somebody in government......

Could you possibly mean that some businesses have made donations to FF and then FF give them a complete monoploly on all firearms related sales in this country :eek:

Never :P:mad:

lordarpad

bunny shooter wrote: »

Could you possibly mean that some businesses have made donations to FF and then FF give them a complete monoploly on all firearms related sales in this country :eek:

Never :P:mad:

would I do such a thing now? 0;-)